The one and only UK 2024 election thread - July 4

[Slick]

Starmer and his preposterous claim that his dad was a toolmaker still makes me laugh.





Starmer is a liar and the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The proposals of Keir Starmer’s ‘A New Britain‘ constitution, written up by Gordon Brown, are designed to destroy Parliament forever – and by extension anything approaching popular sovereignty in Britain. These are: the subordination of Parliament to the judiciary; universal English devolution; the reorganisation of Britain as a multi-national state; and the enshrining of the current social order as a constitution.

‘A New Britain’ will close off any route to democratic change. Blairite society, threatened by new adversaries, and, still more, by new technologies for sharing information, seeks to preserve its waning powers by transforming the U.K. into an ungovernable, ramshackle outfit on the pattern of late Poland-Lithuania or the Holy Roman Empire. A series of legal devices will be cooked up to prevent any change from our trajectory towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

[David in Gwent]

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The proposals of Keir Starmer’s ‘A New Britain‘ constitution, written up by Gordon Brown, are designed to destroy Parliament forever – and by extension anything approaching popular sovereignty in Britain. These are: the subordination of Parliament to the judiciary; universal English devolution; the reorganisation of Britain as a multi-national state; and the enshrining of the current social order as a constitution.

‘A New Britain’ will close off any route to democratic change. Blairite society, threatened by new adversaries, and, still more, by new technologies for sharing information, seeks to preserve its waning powers by transforming the U.K. into an ungovernable, ramshackle outfit on the pattern of late Poland-Lithuania or the Holy Roman Empire. A series of legal devices will be cooked up to prevent any change from our trajectory towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

https://labour.org.uk/updates/stories/a ... r-economy/

[Slick]

sunak_lies.jpg

I don't know why that is real or not, but I can't get my head around why it took Starmer until about the 10th time it had been mentioned to make a defence, and really meekly at that. Even after he had pointed out it was bollocks he let Sunak say it again and again. Maybe it was nerves, but it was a massive own goal.

For full disclosure, I really want this Tory government out. Further to this I personally tend to lean more to the left than the right. So I am probably biased against Sunak.

That said, just at the weekend I was saying to a friend that I feel a bit sorry for Sunak. He's been left with this rotten, stinking, rank version of the Tory party. I also think that a massive Labour landslide kind of defeats the point. You're supposed to have strong parties challenging each other/working together.

Anyway, Starmer definitely should have way more firmly and quickly dealt with this £2'000 per person claim.

It is bothering me though that it appears to be the only thing I've heard on the media since the debate. Admittedly I've just been over-hearing rather than sat watching various news outlets. But heard nothing on Sunak saying he'd use private medical care. His petulant attitude appears to be being sold as back to the wall fighting. The laughs when discussions his NHS waiting list reduction claim, and the National Service chuckle.

What is definitely getting stuffed down my throat though is the Starmer £2'000 thing. It wasn't great, at all, but feels like the Tory media machine is at it again.

I think I've voted for all the main parties, Labour, Tory, Libdems, SNP, Green and independent at some point. I also want rid of this government with, hopefully an absolute drubbing.

I think I might liken that debate last night and the £2,000 thing to watching Scotland play Italy, before they were good.

You know they should win, and win well, but there is still a nagging doubt that we will fuck it up. This £2k thing last night was like us hammering away at their line through the forwards when we have Finn, Jones, Hogg and BK standing outside waiting for a pass with all the Italians drawn into the ruck area. A simple pass and we are in, so why the fuck aren't we doing it prior to knocking on and having to start again. He could have nipped it in the bud the very first time and Sunak would have been scuppered for the whole night, why the fuck didn't he!

I think that's why it's getting all the headlines, almost the entire nation were screaming at the TV for the ball to go wide and he just kept knocking on and handing it back.

[David in Gwent]

To all intents and purposes it's a Communist Manifesto.

Which I have every right to find terrifying.

[Slick]

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

https://labour.org.uk/updates/stories/a ... r-economy/

Are you seriously putting that forward to try and prove your earlier point?

[Slick]

To all intents and purposes it's a Communist Manifesto.

Which I have every right to find terrifying.

OK, done.

[Biffer]

I don't know why that is real or not, but I can't get my head around why it took Starmer until about the 10th time it had been mentioned to make a defence, and really meekly at that. Even after he had pointed out it was bollocks he let Sunak say it again and again. Maybe it was nerves, but it was a massive own goal.

For full disclosure, I really want this Tory government out. Further to this I personally tend to lean more to the left than the right. So I am probably biased against Sunak.

That said, just at the weekend I was saying to a friend that I feel a bit sorry for Sunak. He's been left with this rotten, stinking, rank version of the Tory party. I also think that a massive Labour landslide kind of defeats the point. You're supposed to have strong parties challenging each other/working together.

Anyway, Starmer definitely should have way more firmly and quickly dealt with this £2'000 per person claim.

It is bothering me though that it appears to be the only thing I've heard on the media since the debate. Admittedly I've just been over-hearing rather than sat watching various news outlets. But heard nothing on Sunak saying he'd use private medical care. His petulant attitude appears to be being sold as back to the wall fighting. The laughs when discussions his NHS waiting list reduction claim, and the National Service chuckle.

What is definitely getting stuffed down my throat though is the Starmer £2'000 thing. It wasn't great, at all, but feels like the Tory media machine is at it again.

I think I've voted for all the main parties, Labour, Tory, Libdems, SNP, Green and independent at some point. I also want rid of this government with, hopefully an absolute drubbing.

I think I might liken that debate last night and the £2,000 thing to watching Scotland play Italy, before they were good.

You know they should win, and win well, but there is still a nagging doubt that we will fuck it up. This £2k thing last night was like us hammering away at their line through the forwards when we have Finn, Jones, Hogg and BK standing outside waiting for a pass with all the Italians drawn into the ruck area. A simple pass and we are in, so why the fuck aren't we doing it prior to knocking on and having to start again. He could have nipped it in the bud the very first time and Sunak would have been scuppered for the whole night, why the fuck didn't he!

I think that's why it's getting all the headlines, almost the entire nation were screaming at the TV for the ball to go wide and he just kept knocking on and handing it back.

Particularly as they had the letter from the Permanent Secretary to the Treasury two days ago, saying those should not be presented as civil service numbers. He should have had a physical copy in his jacket pocket to take out and read aloud. That would have been the gotcha moment from the whole debate.

[David in Gwent]

To all intents and purposes it's a Communist Manifesto.

Which I have every right to find terrifying.

OK, done.

Is this the fourth or maybe 5th time you're "done"

Labour propose to introduce layer upon layer upon layer of a new political class.

[Insane_Homer]

The "New Britain Constitution" is a real, actual thing. Why not try to debunk that rather than the blog that's is trying to expose it.

Nothing I have ever said could be classed as lunacy.

Well, that didn't last long. ROFL

[C69]

To all intents and purposes it's a Communist Manifesto.

Which I have every right to find terrifying.

Gtfo. Lol

[David in Gwent]

In other news, Welsh Labour Leader could potentially receive a Vote of No Confidence today.


https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv224x3pmv9o

[Raggs]

Starmer and his preposterous claim that his dad was a toolmaker still makes me laugh.





Starmer is a liar and the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The proposals of Keir Starmer’s ‘A New Britain‘ constitution, written up by Gordon Brown, are designed to destroy Parliament forever – and by extension anything approaching popular sovereignty in Britain. These are: the subordination of Parliament to the judiciary; universal English devolution; the reorganisation of Britain as a multi-national state; and the enshrining of the current social order as a constitution.

‘A New Britain’ will close off any route to democratic change. Blairite society, threatened by new adversaries, and, still more, by new technologies for sharing information, seeks to preserve its waning powers by transforming the U.K. into an ungovernable, ramshackle outfit on the pattern of late Poland-Lithuania or the Holy Roman Empire. A series of legal devices will be cooked up to prevent any change from our trajectory towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

So you're terrified of:

The toolmaker lie that isn't a lie.

Parliament being below the law (oh the horror....).

Decisions and spending being made on a more micro scale, better suiting the needs of locations, rather than blanket rule...

Britain is already a multi-national state... we call them the home nations, in case you hadn't noticed. Figured you weren't much of a rugby man.

And enshrining the current social order... except of course, it couldn't be the current social order if we've just changed it all up? Of course, that bit is word salad anyway (as is the last bit).

I do however agree with the author on the last part of the final sentence, after 14 years of Tory rule, our trajectory is most certainly towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

[Lobby]

According to the Guardian, if you use the same methodology the Tories used to come up with the Labour £2,000 tax bill and review the Tories spending plans you end up with a Tory tax bill of £14,700 extra per family.

The Tory figures cover a spending black hole, and the potential tax increases that might be needed to pay for this, over four years. But when Sunak was quoting the £2,000 figure repeatedly last night, he implied that this was a calculation relating to how much extra tax people might have to pay a year. This was misleading. If he had said people might have to pay an extra £500 a year under Labour, that would still have sounded unwelcome, but less alarming.

The Tory headline figure for the black hole in Labour’s plans is £38.5bn. Labour says there is a black hole in Tory plans (mostly generated by its aspiration to abolish employees’ national insurance) and it says this is worth £71bn (of which £46bn is the national insurance plan). But this is an annual figure. As a four-year figure, it would be £284bn. And, using the Tory method of converting a black hole into a tax increase, that would mean families paying around £14,700 more in taxes (over four years)

[David in Gwent]

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The proposals of Keir Starmer’s ‘A New Britain‘ constitution, written up by Gordon Brown, are designed to destroy Parliament forever – and by extension anything approaching popular sovereignty in Britain. These are: the subordination of Parliament to the judiciary; universal English devolution; the reorganisation of Britain as a multi-national state; and the enshrining of the current social order as a constitution.

‘A New Britain’ will close off any route to democratic change. Blairite society, threatened by new adversaries, and, still more, by new technologies for sharing information, seeks to preserve its waning powers by transforming the U.K. into an ungovernable, ramshackle outfit on the pattern of late Poland-Lithuania or the Holy Roman Empire. A series of legal devices will be cooked up to prevent any change from our trajectory towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

So you're terrified of:

The toolmaker lie that isn't a lie.

Parliament being below the law (oh the horror....).

Decisions and spending being made on a more micro scale, better suiting the needs of locations, rather than blanket rule...

Britain is already a multi-national state... we call them the home nations, in case you hadn't noticed. Figured you weren't much of a rugby man.

And enshrining the current social order... except of course, it couldn't be the current social order if we've just changed it all up? Of course, that bit is word salad anyway (as is the last bit).

I do however agree with the author on the last part of the final sentence, after 14 years of Tory rule, our trajectory is most certainly towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

Being terrified of Labour is a logical response, otherwise they would have been closer to gaining Government these last 15 years or so. Just because I am aghast at the thought of a Labour Government, it doesn't mean I'm voting Tory who are as equally terrifying as both are obviously run by the Globalists.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Posting online about the terrors of globalism just seems such an odd act. utilising that which has arguably done more than all else to establish that very globalism to rail against reality

[Insane_Homer]

Oopsies.

IMG_20240605_170109_950.jpg (169.26 KiB) Viewed 1077 times

[SaintK]

Ian Duncan-Smith breathing a sigh of relief
That's the Labour vote split in Chingford

[sturginho]

Ian Duncan-Smith breathing a sigh of relief
That's the Labour vote split in Chingford

She seems to overestimate her own importance

[David in Gwent]

Welsh Labour Leader cries after a Vote of No Confidence.

It's not rocket science in Wales, all you have to do is concentrate on Education, Health and jobs. We're 3rd world in all 3.

[David in Gwent]

he's so far refusing to stand down, Starmer has endorsed him. He also cried, like a bitch.

[Paddington Bear]

Ian Duncan-Smith breathing a sigh of relief
That's the Labour vote split in Chingford

She seems to overestimate her own importance

As we’ve seen, longstanding MPs have near zero personal votes. Candidates likely have even less

[I like neeps]

https://x.com/RestIsPolitics/status/179 ... VC5fw&s=19

This is how the Tories should debate Labour's plans. How are you going to fund anything without tax rises or borrowing?

40k more appointments for week without spending more money? Cut down the time taken per appointment? How else is that one possible.

[dpedin]

Oopsies.

IMG_20240605_170109_950.jpg

Whilst the Tories will be keen to plant the £2000 tax bill in folks minds I suspect it has backfired and 'Sunak lied' is the price they have paid for their dodgy figures! I suspect they have lost more credibility than they might have gained with their dodgy figures and being called out directly by the Treasury head Civil Servant. The news about the Tories accepting more money from racist donor Hester hasn't helped either, in that case lying by omission is the crime. Expect another distracting headline/deadcat asap to move on from yet another Tory disaster ... my money is still on bringing back the death penalty!

[Lobby]

Ian Duncan-Smith breathing a sigh of relief
That's the Labour vote split in Chingford

She seems to overestimate her own importance

As we’ve seen, longstanding MPs have near zero personal votes. Candidates likely have even less

Given the choice between massaging her hurt ego or voting Ian Duncan Smith out, I suspect most people would choose the latter.

[Raggs]

https://x.com/RestIsPolitics/status/179 ... VC5fw&s=19

This is how the Tories should debate Labour's plans. How are you going to fund anything without tax rises or borrowing?

40k more appointments for week without spending more money? Cut down the time taken per appointment? How else is that one possible.

There's an interview with the money saving expert guy, he asks labour and conservative MPs the question.

Labour state they'll tax non-doms residents and the ultra rich, as well as the private school Vat. Along with the usual economy will be grown (which they at least go into some detail by saying there will be a big push for green energy etc).

Tory just said they'll grow the economy. Since their plans have just as big a hole in them.

[Paddington Bear]

https://x.com/RestIsPolitics/status/179 ... VC5fw&s=19

This is how the Tories should debate Labour's plans. How are you going to fund anything without tax rises or borrowing?

40k more appointments for week without spending more money? Cut down the time taken per appointment? How else is that one possible.

There's an interview with the money saving expert guy, he asks labour and conservative MPs the question.

Labour state they'll tax non-doms residents and the ultra rich, as well as the private school Vat. Along with the usual economy will be grown (which they at least go into some detail by saying there will be a big push for green energy etc).

Tory just said they'll grow the economy. Since their plans have just as big a hole in them.

Given that Labour’s tax raising plans will raise the square root of fuck all, both are in essentially the same position

[I like neeps]

https://x.com/RestIsPolitics/status/179 ... VC5fw&s=19

This is how the Tories should debate Labour's plans. How are you going to fund anything without tax rises or borrowing?

40k more appointments for week without spending more money? Cut down the time taken per appointment? How else is that one possible.

There's an interview with the money saving expert guy, he asks labour and conservative MPs the question.

Labour state they'll tax non-doms residents and the ultra rich, as well as the private school Vat. Along with the usual economy will be grown (which they at least go into some detail by saying there will be a big push for green energy etc).

Tory just said they'll grow the economy. Since their plans have just as big a hole in them.

They're taxing non doms (who will mostly just leave but good riddance) so diminishing returns but let's say £5bn as they're saying and VAT on private school fees is £1.7bn per year.

6.7bn is 3% of the NHS' annual budget and that's only one public service. The rest are still collapsing.

On and inflation is what 3% per year going forward? How fast is the UK population growing? And how fast are the elderly percentages going up?

It's not a realistic tax plan if you want public services to improve. It's a realistic tax plan for them to get worse slightly slower than the Tories plan for them is.

[Paddington Bear]

We will regret pushing out the non-doms. Pleasant people they are not, but we will regret it

[epwc]

The loss of non doms is a hit I'll happily take, it's much better than all the Brexit related hits. I'm also pretty sure that most of them will retain residences and businesses in London regardless.

[petej]

We will regret pushing out the non-doms. Pleasant people they are not, but we will regret it

Why? What will they do that they wouldn't do at anyrate?

Edit: we aren't evicting them or forcing/pushing them out. They are welcome stay or they can leave to avoid paying tax. You can see how they have warped perceptions by your use of pushed out.

[robmatic]

We will regret pushing out the non-doms. Pleasant people they are not, but we will regret it

Why? What will they do that they wouldn't do at anyrate?

Edit: we aren't evicting them or forcing/pushing them out. They are welcome stay or they can leave to avoid paying tax. You can see how they have warped perceptions by your use of pushed out.

If we are not careful they might buy up all our media and start pushing their own harmful agendas.

[Paddington Bear]

We will regret pushing out the non-doms. Pleasant people they are not, but we will regret it

Why? What will they do that they wouldn't do at anyrate?

Edit: we aren't evicting them or forcing/pushing them out. They are welcome stay or they can leave to avoid paying tax. You can see how they have warped perceptions by your use of pushed out.

These people and their money is exceptionally mobile, other countries (even France) recognise their value and will take their cash and investment if we don’t want it.

[Biffer]

We will regret pushing out the non-doms. Pleasant people they are not, but we will regret it

Why? What will they do that they wouldn't do at anyrate?

Edit: we aren't evicting them or forcing/pushing them out. They are welcome stay or they can leave to avoid paying tax. You can see how they have warped perceptions by your use of pushed out.

These people and their money is exceptionally mobile, other countries (even France) recognise their value and will take their cash and investment if we don’t want it.

One of the reasons they like being in the UK is that they can invest anywhere and still get taxed as non doms. Most of their investment isn't in the UK, it has very little effect on our economy, other than to let them own several dozen empty properties in London to push up property prices at the top end. I am unconvinced of their value to our economy. VC money comes from global investors nowadays. Most companies I work with end up getting their investment from overseas because British based VCs aren't much use. I don't see what non dom status adds to an economy in these days of highly mobile money. Wherever they live, they'll invest in what makes money for them and live in the lowest tax base. Their spending does fuck all as well as very little of it benefits the UK economy.

[dpedin]

Why? What will they do that they wouldn't do at anyrate?

Edit: we aren't evicting them or forcing/pushing them out. They are welcome stay or they can leave to avoid paying tax. You can see how they have warped perceptions by your use of pushed out.

These people and their money is exceptionally mobile, other countries (even France) recognise their value and will take their cash and investment if we don’t want it.

One of the reasons they like being in the UK is that they can invest anywhere and still get taxed as non doms. Most of their investment isn't in the UK, it has very little effect on our economy, other than to let them own several dozen empty properties in London to push up property prices at the top end. I am unconvinced of their value to our economy. VC money comes from global investors nowadays. Most companies I work with end up getting their investment from overseas because British based VCs aren't much use. I don't see what non dom status adds to an economy in these days of highly mobile money. Wherever they live, they'll invest in what makes money for them and live in the lowest tax base. Their spending does fuck all as well as very little of it benefits the UK economy.

This! Anyone who thinks the uber rich invest and keep their dosh in the countries they live in is living in cloud cuckoo land. Most of their money is salted away in off shore tax haven accounts and invested around the world. The fact they chose to live in the UK is probably because they can get non dom status and minimal tax plus we are believe it or not a good country to live in ... if you have lots of money! I am not sure that if non dom status is withdrawn and they are taxed more then it will make much difference to their total incomes anyway, it's probably a rounding error given their global wealth and income and all it might do is shift where they pay some of their taxes anyway ie Mrs Sunak!

[C69]

These people and their money is exceptionally mobile, other countries (even France) recognise their value and will take their cash and investment if we don’t want it.

One of the reasons they like being in the UK is that they can invest anywhere and still get taxed as non doms. Most of their investment isn't in the UK, it has very little effect on our economy, other than to let them own several dozen empty properties in London to push up property prices at the top end. I am unconvinced of their value to our economy. VC money comes from global investors nowadays. Most companies I work with end up getting their investment from overseas because British based VCs aren't much use. I don't see what non dom status adds to an economy in these days of highly mobile money. Wherever they live, they'll invest in what makes money for them and live in the lowest tax base. Their spending does fuck all as well as very little of it benefits the UK economy.

This! Anyone who thinks the uber rich invest and keep their dosh in the countries they live in is living in cloud cuckoo land. Most of their money is salted away in off shore tax haven accounts and invested around the world. The fact they chose to live in the UK is probably because they can get non dom status and minimal tax plus we are believe it or not a good country to live in ... if you have lots of money! I am not sure that if non dom status is withdrawn and they are taxed more then it will make much difference to their total incomes anyway, it's probably a rounding error given their global wealth and income and all it might do is shift where they pay some of their taxes anyway ie Mrs Sunak!

This and Biffer's post.

[epwc]

To add the distortion of London (in particular) property prices has a huge social impact, so happy to see them fuck off if they choose to

[Insane_Homer]

Guardian and Sky reporting that using the same 'method' the Cronies used to come to their £2k headline figure, say we're to the tune of ~£13k worse off since the last election...

[Hal Jordan]

Sunak is getting an absolute pasting from everyone including his own MPs for pissing off early from the D-Day commemorations to record a piece for ITV.

He genuinely doesn't understand anything except money, and how he can direct it to his family.

Edit: Can you imagine the unbridled fury if Corbyn or, say Michael Foot, were to have done this? Corby was eviscerated for looking a bit scruffy at The Cenotaph.

[Paddington Bear]

I am utterly, utterly flabbergasted that 1) he thought this was in any way acceptable and 2) his advisors didn’t stop him. The man has zero political instinct, zero.

This is before the obvious element that attending such an event is both an honour and a duty. Speechless

[Biffer]

In the video that Zelensky has circulated, the UK is represented by the Leader of the Opposition.