NPR

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:19 am

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:00 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:02 am Starmer and his preposterous claim that his dad was a toolmaker still makes me laugh.





Starmer is a liar and the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The proposals of Keir Starmer’s ‘A New Britain‘ constitution, written up by Gordon Brown, are designed to destroy Parliament forever – and by extension anything approaching popular sovereignty in Britain. These are: the subordination of Parliament to the judiciary; universal English devolution; the reorganisation of Britain as a multi-national state; and the enshrining of the current social order as a constitution.

‘A New Britain’ will close off any route to democratic change. Blairite society, threatened by new adversaries, and, still more, by new technologies for sharing information, seeks to preserve its waning powers by transforming the U.K. into an ungovernable, ramshackle outfit on the pattern of late Poland-Lithuania or the Holy Roman Empire. A series of legal devices will be cooked up to prevent any change from our trajectory towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:36 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:19 am

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:00 am

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The proposals of Keir Starmer’s ‘A New Britain‘ constitution, written up by Gordon Brown, are designed to destroy Parliament forever – and by extension anything approaching popular sovereignty in Britain. These are: the subordination of Parliament to the judiciary; universal English devolution; the reorganisation of Britain as a multi-national state; and the enshrining of the current social order as a constitution.

‘A New Britain’ will close off any route to democratic change. Blairite society, threatened by new adversaries, and, still more, by new technologies for sharing information, seeks to preserve its waning powers by transforming the U.K. into an ungovernable, ramshackle outfit on the pattern of late Poland-Lithuania or the Holy Roman Empire. A series of legal devices will be cooked up to prevent any change from our trajectory towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

C T wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 8:29 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 7:55 am

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 7:48 am sunak_lies.jpg

I don't know why that is real or not, but I can't get my head around why it took Starmer until about the 10th time it had been mentioned to make a defence, and really meekly at that. Even after he had pointed out it was bollocks he let Sunak say it again and again. Maybe it was nerves, but it was a massive own goal.

For full disclosure, I really want this Tory government out. Further to this I personally tend to lean more to the left than the right. So I am probably biased against Sunak.

That said, just at the weekend I was saying to a friend that I feel a bit sorry for Sunak. He's been left with this rotten, stinking, rank version of the Tory party. I also think that a massive Labour landslide kind of defeats the point. You're supposed to have strong parties challenging each other/working together.

Anyway, Starmer definitely should have way more firmly and quickly dealt with this £2'000 per person claim.

It is bothering me though that it appears to be the only thing I've heard on the media since the debate. Admittedly I've just been over-hearing rather than sat watching various news outlets. But heard nothing on Sunak saying he'd use private medical care. His petulant attitude appears to be being sold as back to the wall fighting. The laughs when discussions his NHS waiting list reduction claim, and the National Service chuckle.

What is definitely getting stuffed down my throat though is the Starmer £2'000 thing. It wasn't great, at all, but feels like the Tory media machine is at it again.

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:40 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:36 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:19 am

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

https://labour.org.uk/updates/stories/a ... r-economy/

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:46 am To all intents and purposes it's a Communist Manifesto.

Which I have every right to find terrifying.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:45 am

C T wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 8:29 am

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 7:55 am

I don't know why that is real or not, but I can't get my head around why it took Starmer until about the 10th time it had been mentioned to make a defence, and really meekly at that. Even after he had pointed out it was bollocks he let Sunak say it again and again. Maybe it was nerves, but it was a massive own goal.

For full disclosure, I really want this Tory government out. Further to this I personally tend to lean more to the left than the right. So I am probably biased against Sunak.

That said, just at the weekend I was saying to a friend that I feel a bit sorry for Sunak. He's been left with this rotten, stinking, rank version of the Tory party. I also think that a massive Labour landslide kind of defeats the point. You're supposed to have strong parties challenging each other/working together.

Anyway, Starmer definitely should have way more firmly and quickly dealt with this £2'000 per person claim.

It is bothering me though that it appears to be the only thing I've heard on the media since the debate. Admittedly I've just been over-hearing rather than sat watching various news outlets. But heard nothing on Sunak saying he'd use private medical care. His petulant attitude appears to be being sold as back to the wall fighting. The laughs when discussions his NHS waiting list reduction claim, and the National Service chuckle.

What is definitely getting stuffed down my throat though is the Starmer £2'000 thing. It wasn't great, at all, but feels like the Tory media machine is at it again.

I think I've voted for all the main parties, Labour, Tory, Libdems, SNP, Green and independent at some point. I also want rid of this government with, hopefully an absolute drubbing.

I think I might liken that debate last night and the £2,000 thing to watching Scotland play Italy, before they were good.

You know they should win, and win well, but there is still a nagging doubt that we will fuck it up. This £2k thing last night was like us hammering away at their line through the forwards when we have Finn, Jones, Hogg and BK standing outside waiting for a pass with all the Italians drawn into the ruck area. A simple pass and we are in, so why the fuck aren't we doing it prior to knocking on and having to start again. He could have nipped it in the bud the very first time and Sunak would have been scuppered for the whole night, why the fuck didn't he!

I think that's why it's getting all the headlines, almost the entire nation were screaming at the TV for the ball to go wide and he just kept knocking on and handing it back.

Slick wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:50 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:46 am To all intents and purposes it's a Communist Manifesto.

Which I have every right to find terrifying.

OK, done.

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:36 am The "New Britain Constitution" is a real, actual thing. Why not try to debunk that rather than the blog that's is trying to expose it.

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:34 am Nothing I have ever said could be classed as lunacy.

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:46 am To all intents and purposes it's a Communist Manifesto.

Which I have every right to find terrifying.

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:19 am

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:00 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 9:02 am Starmer and his preposterous claim that his dad was a toolmaker still makes me laugh.





Starmer is a liar and the thought of him leading the country is quite frankly terrifying.

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The proposals of Keir Starmer’s ‘A New Britain‘ constitution, written up by Gordon Brown, are designed to destroy Parliament forever – and by extension anything approaching popular sovereignty in Britain. These are: the subordination of Parliament to the judiciary; universal English devolution; the reorganisation of Britain as a multi-national state; and the enshrining of the current social order as a constitution.

‘A New Britain’ will close off any route to democratic change. Blairite society, threatened by new adversaries, and, still more, by new technologies for sharing information, seeks to preserve its waning powers by transforming the U.K. into an ungovernable, ramshackle outfit on the pattern of late Poland-Lithuania or the Holy Roman Empire. A series of legal devices will be cooked up to prevent any change from our trajectory towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

The Tory figures cover a spending black hole, and the potential tax increases that might be needed to pay for this, over four years. But when Sunak was quoting the £2,000 figure repeatedly last night, he implied that this was a calculation relating to how much extra tax people might have to pay a year. This was misleading. If he had said people might have to pay an extra £500 a year under Labour, that would still have sounded unwelcome, but less alarming.

The Tory headline figure for the black hole in Labour’s plans is £38.5bn. Labour says there is a black hole in Tory plans (mostly generated by its aspiration to abolish employees’ national insurance) and it says this is worth £71bn (of which £46bn is the national insurance plan). But this is an annual figure. As a four-year figure, it would be £284bn. And, using the Tory method of converting a black hole into a tax increase, that would mean families paying around £14,700 more in taxes (over four years)

Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 11:25 am

David in Gwent wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:19 am

S/Lt_Phillips wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 10:00 am

Hardly preposterous, his father was a toolmaker, who went on to run a business. But you know that.

However, your screaming hypocrisy comes to the fore again. You claim that Starmer's 'lie' makes it terrifying to consider him as PM, yet you're a massive cheerleader for proven liars Trump and Boris and Sunak. Tip: trolling works better if you're slightly credible.

It's certainly not just Starmer's "toolmaker" lie that I find terrifying.........

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/07/04/lab ... democracy/

The proposals of Keir Starmer’s ‘A New Britain‘ constitution, written up by Gordon Brown, are designed to destroy Parliament forever – and by extension anything approaching popular sovereignty in Britain. These are: the subordination of Parliament to the judiciary; universal English devolution; the reorganisation of Britain as a multi-national state; and the enshrining of the current social order as a constitution.

‘A New Britain’ will close off any route to democratic change. Blairite society, threatened by new adversaries, and, still more, by new technologies for sharing information, seeks to preserve its waning powers by transforming the U.K. into an ungovernable, ramshackle outfit on the pattern of late Poland-Lithuania or the Holy Roman Empire. A series of legal devices will be cooked up to prevent any change from our trajectory towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

So you're terrified of:

The toolmaker lie that isn't a lie.

Parliament being below the law (oh the horror....).

Decisions and spending being made on a more micro scale, better suiting the needs of locations, rather than blanket rule...

Britain is already a multi-national state... we call them the home nations, in case you hadn't noticed. Figured you weren't much of a rugby man.

And enshrining the current social order... except of course, it couldn't be the current social order if we've just changed it all up? Of course, that bit is word salad anyway (as is the last bit).

I do however agree with the author on the last part of the final sentence, after 14 years of Tory rule, our trajectory is most certainly towards mediocrity and impoverishment.

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 4:53 pm Ian Duncan-Smith breathing a sigh of relief
That's the Labour vote split in Chingford

sturginho wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 5:42 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 4:53 pm Ian Duncan-Smith breathing a sigh of relief
That's the Labour vote split in Chingford

She seems to overestimate her own importance

Insane_Homer wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 4:02 pm Oopsies.

IMG_20240605_170109_950.jpg

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 6:58 pm

sturginho wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 5:42 pm

SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jun 05, 2024 4:53 pm Ian Duncan-Smith breathing a sigh of relief
That's the Labour vote split in Chingford

She seems to overestimate her own importance

As we’ve seen, longstanding MPs have near zero personal votes. Candidates likely have even less

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 8:29 am https://x.com/RestIsPolitics/status/179 ... VC5fw&s=19

This is how the Tories should debate Labour's plans. How are you going to fund anything without tax rises or borrowing?

40k more appointments for week without spending more money? Cut down the time taken per appointment? How else is that one possible.

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 11:46 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 8:29 am https://x.com/RestIsPolitics/status/179 ... VC5fw&s=19

This is how the Tories should debate Labour's plans. How are you going to fund anything without tax rises or borrowing?

40k more appointments for week without spending more money? Cut down the time taken per appointment? How else is that one possible.

There's an interview with the money saving expert guy, he asks labour and conservative MPs the question.

Labour state they'll tax non-doms residents and the ultra rich, as well as the private school Vat. Along with the usual economy will be grown (which they at least go into some detail by saying there will be a big push for green energy etc).

Tory just said they'll grow the economy. Since their plans have just as big a hole in them.

Raggs wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 11:46 am

I like neeps wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 8:29 am https://x.com/RestIsPolitics/status/179 ... VC5fw&s=19

This is how the Tories should debate Labour's plans. How are you going to fund anything without tax rises or borrowing?

40k more appointments for week without spending more money? Cut down the time taken per appointment? How else is that one possible.

There's an interview with the money saving expert guy, he asks labour and conservative MPs the question.

Labour state they'll tax non-doms residents and the ultra rich, as well as the private school Vat. Along with the usual economy will be grown (which they at least go into some detail by saying there will be a big push for green energy etc).

Tory just said they'll grow the economy. Since their plans have just as big a hole in them.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:31 pm We will regret pushing out the non-doms. Pleasant people they are not, but we will regret it

petej wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:04 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:31 pm We will regret pushing out the non-doms. Pleasant people they are not, but we will regret it

Why? What will they do that they wouldn't do at anyrate?

Edit: we aren't evicting them or forcing/pushing them out. They are welcome stay or they can leave to avoid paying tax. You can see how they have warped perceptions by your use of pushed out.

petej wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:04 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:31 pm We will regret pushing out the non-doms. Pleasant people they are not, but we will regret it

Why? What will they do that they wouldn't do at anyrate?

Edit: we aren't evicting them or forcing/pushing them out. They are welcome stay or they can leave to avoid paying tax. You can see how they have warped perceptions by your use of pushed out.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:29 pm

petej wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:04 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 12:31 pm We will regret pushing out the non-doms. Pleasant people they are not, but we will regret it

Why? What will they do that they wouldn't do at anyrate?

Edit: we aren't evicting them or forcing/pushing them out. They are welcome stay or they can leave to avoid paying tax. You can see how they have warped perceptions by your use of pushed out.

These people and their money is exceptionally mobile, other countries (even France) recognise their value and will take their cash and investment if we don’t want it.

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:45 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:29 pm

petej wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:04 pm

Why? What will they do that they wouldn't do at anyrate?

Edit: we aren't evicting them or forcing/pushing them out. They are welcome stay or they can leave to avoid paying tax. You can see how they have warped perceptions by your use of pushed out.

These people and their money is exceptionally mobile, other countries (even France) recognise their value and will take their cash and investment if we don’t want it.

One of the reasons they like being in the UK is that they can invest anywhere and still get taxed as non doms. Most of their investment isn't in the UK, it has very little effect on our economy, other than to let them own several dozen empty properties in London to push up property prices at the top end. I am unconvinced of their value to our economy. VC money comes from global investors nowadays. Most companies I work with end up getting their investment from overseas because British based VCs aren't much use. I don't see what non dom status adds to an economy in these days of highly mobile money. Wherever they live, they'll invest in what makes money for them and live in the lowest tax base. Their spending does fuck all as well as very little of it benefits the UK economy.

dpedin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 3:07 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:45 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Jun 06, 2024 1:29 pm

These people and their money is exceptionally mobile, other countries (even France) recognise their value and will take their cash and investment if we don’t want it.

One of the reasons they like being in the UK is that they can invest anywhere and still get taxed as non doms. Most of their investment isn't in the UK, it has very little effect on our economy, other than to let them own several dozen empty properties in London to push up property prices at the top end. I am unconvinced of their value to our economy. VC money comes from global investors nowadays. Most companies I work with end up getting their investment from overseas because British based VCs aren't much use. I don't see what non dom status adds to an economy in these days of highly mobile money. Wherever they live, they'll invest in what makes money for them and live in the lowest tax base. Their spending does fuck all as well as very little of it benefits the UK economy.

This! Anyone who thinks the uber rich invest and keep their dosh in the countries they live in is living in cloud cuckoo land. Most of their money is salted away in off shore tax haven accounts and invested around the world. The fact they chose to live in the UK is probably because they can get non dom status and minimal tax plus we are believe it or not a good country to live in ... if you have lots of money! I am not sure that if non dom status is withdrawn and they are taxed more then it will make much difference to their total incomes anyway, it's probably a rounding error given their global wealth and income and all it might do is shift where they pay some of their taxes anyway ie Mrs Sunak!