And of course, players like Hogg, Curry and Faletau really prove that playing Premiership rugby really prepares you for test rugby.
Jesus wept.
P.s I've no idea what Jamie George did to get dropped.
That's not an argument I was making. Saying the Championship isn't adequate preparation isn't the same as saying the Premiership is. There are no guarantees with player form, but playing in top flight competition certainly provides the best chance for players to be in the requisite form because they're playing against higher quality opposition week in week out. Faletau should never have been selected for the tour based on his 6 Nations and domestic form. I don't think Hogg was that bad, he wasn't great, but he deserved to be there and once there the choices were him an injured/out of form Williams or Daly...
George was demonstrably worse than LCD in the 6 Nations and I can't even remember his tour performances despite having watched every game.
George was better than Owens.
Itoje was, by a distance, the best Lions player and probably the best player of the whole series even if you include South Africans. That's a hell of an outlier.
That preference is easily explained by the Gatland factor and his lingering affinity for some of his former Welsh charges. I'd imagine the only reason he didn't fly out 4 Welsh nobodies mid-way through the tour this time was the logistical difficulties imposed by covid.
He is one hell of an outlier, but an outlier nonetheless. I'm sure that with some time back playing top flight rugby the other Sarries players will return to international form, but, much as they were a gamble for England this season, they were a gamble for the Lions and it didn't pay off in all but one case.
That's not an argument I was making. Saying the Championship isn't adequate preparation isn't the same as saying the Premiership is. There are no guarantees with player form, but playing in top flight competition certainly provides the best chance for players to be in the requisite form because they're playing against higher quality opposition week in week out. Faletau should never have been selected for the tour based on his 6 Nations and domestic form. I don't think Hogg was that bad, he wasn't great, but he deserved to be there and once there the choices were him an injured/out of form Williams or Daly...
George was demonstrably worse than LCD in the 6 Nations and I can't even remember his tour performances despite having watched every game.
George was better than Owens.
Itoje was, by a distance, the best Lions player and probably the best player of the whole series even if you include South Africans. That's a hell of an outlier.
That preference is easily explained by the Gatland factor and his lingering affinity for some of his former Welsh charges. I'd imagine the only reason he didn't fly out 4 Welsh nobodies mid-way through the tour this time was the logistical difficulties imposed by covid.
He is one hell of an outlier, but an outlier nonetheless. I'm sure that with some time back playing top flight rugby the other Sarries players will return to international form, but, much as they were a gamble for England this season, they were a gamble for the Lions and it didn't pay off in all but one case.
Could be fun dynamic with Eddie. He's probably less inclined to be hectored than some of the other blokes they've had blowing through the setup.
Less fun for the players mind, given neither get great reviews for producing an environment that players enjoy being part of.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:32 am
by JM2K6
Fucking hell. Good luck Marcus
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:42 am
by Dinsdale Piranha
Just add Gatland and we could have the perfect trio for eye bleeding rugby.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:59 am
by Tichtheid
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:32 am
Fucking hell. Good luck Marcus
Glasgow have a young fly half called Ross Thompson and a brilliant young scrum half called Jamie Dobie. Dobie has played in 20 games for Glasgow, he turned 20 in June and he is progressing nicely. Same can be said for Thompson, he made ten starts for Glasgow last season, forcing Adam Hastings back to 15, Thompson also came off the bench in four more games.
Cockers’ Edinburgh had Nathan Chamberlain, the ex-Scotland U20s 10, sitting unused on the pine week after week. He looked to have a much higher ceiling than Thompson but is now way behind.
Embra also have young Charlie Shiel, a scrum half with a lightning pass and real pace, his natural game is ”jouer jouer”. You could see him at the tail end of the season fighting his instincts and slowing everything down, foot on top of the ball at the back of the ruck.
These two have genuine potential, but they were actually having their games stunted under our old regime.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:09 am
by Random1
Do I recall Ford having a fall out with cockers?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:32 am
by notfatcat
Mike Ford got his cockers out and had a fall.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:09 pm
by Kawazaki
I think English rugby is fucked now until the RFU grow a spine and get rid of Jones. He'll win enough matches to keep his win/loss ratio respectable to the blazers but the RFU executive really don't have a clue about rugby and, I'll give Jones credit here, he is brilliant at managing upward. He's got the England Rugby CEO in the palm of his hand with literally no governance in place to even measure Jones's performance let alone manage it. He's now the most powerful man in English rugby but he's an egomaniacal dinosaur with a huge chip on his shoulder toward anything or anyone who even so much as hints at dissent towards his methods.
Players that push his buttons will just continue to keep getting picked regardless of form, age or just plain old ability. Ben Youngs could reach 150 caps which will be a fitting epitaph of the Jones regime.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:32 pm
by Raggs
Wonder if Cockers intense style, combined with Eddie stopping him from going full Cockers, could work in the more time intensive international setting. World cup camps could be a bit messy though.
I don't think Cockers conservatism can effect what Eddie wants to do, and Gleeson has hopefully been brought in to continue Englands play at speed attempts that we saw at the end of the 6N.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:38 am
by Rhubarb & Custard
Ben Youngs has been playing really well in recent England games. If he carries on doing the same it's not an issue if he reaches 150 caps
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:26 am
by Kawazaki
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:38 am
Ben Youngs has been playing really well in recent England games. If he carries on doing the same it's not an issue if he reaches 150 caps
Stockholm Syndrome.
The only way Ben Youngs can be judged to 'play really well' every now and then is if you compare him to default Ben Youngs. Compared to literally every other Tier 1 scrumhalf, most from Tier 2, virtually all the other Premiership 9s and even the other scrumhalfs at Leicester, he's slow witted, glacial at the ruck and possesses a pass accuracy and length that would make a national division level 9 apologise.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:03 pm
by Rhubarb & Custard
Meh. I have in the past been more than a little grumpy watching Ben Youngs. But truth be told he has been very good again, and for a while now. Arguably he even had a better 6N than Dupont, he's not the same talent as Dupont, but his actual decision making was better. And if he carries on like that then we've just got a very good player who's playing really well.
It would be nice to see someone put him under more pressure for selection, we refused to even look at that since dropping Care until Robson came in, from which point Robson hasn't exactly delivered as he'd have liked. Whether Robson gets more chances or Randall is the next up I don't know, but I would like whichever of them we get to really push for the starting role, and if Youngs holds them off so be it.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:53 pm
by SaintK
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:03 pm
Meh. I have in the past been more than a little grumpy watching Ben Youngs. But truth be told he has been very good again, and for a while now. Arguably he even had a better 6N than Dupont, he's not the same talent as Dupont, but his actual decision making was better. And if he carries on like that then we've just got a very good player who's playing really well.
It would be nice to see someone put him under more pressure for selection, we refused to even look at that since dropping Care until Robson came in, from which point Robson hasn't exactly delivered as he'd have liked. Whether Robson gets more chances or Randall is the next up I don't know, but I would like whichever of them we get to really push for the starting role, and if Youngs holds them off so be it.
Hopefully Van Portvliet will keep Youngs out of the Tigers starting XV on a regular basis on his way to replacing him in the England set up.
To be fair to Robson, he hasn't really been given a decent run by Jones at all. Mind you I do relish the thought of Randall bringing some much needed pace to the England game alongside Marcus Smith
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:03 pm
Meh. I have in the past been more than a little grumpy watching Ben Youngs. But truth be told he has been very good again, and for a while now. Arguably he even had a better 6N than Dupont, he's not the same talent as Dupont, but his actual decision making was better. And if he carries on like that then we've just got a very good player who's playing really well.
It would be nice to see someone put him under more pressure for selection, we refused to even look at that since dropping Care until Robson came in, from which point Robson hasn't exactly delivered as he'd have liked. Whether Robson gets more chances or Randall is the next up I don't know, but I would like whichever of them we get to really push for the starting role, and if Youngs holds them off so be it.
Hopefully Van Portvliet will keep Youngs out of the Tigers starting XV on a regular basis on his way to replacing him in the England set up.
To be fair to Robson, he hasn't really been given a decent run by Jones at all. Mind you I do relish the thought of Randall bringing some much needed pace to the England game alongside Marcus Smith
Pace in what sense? We've rarely seen England play faster than they did last 6N with Youngs and Ford. The issues were around set piece, penalties and perhaps fitness to sustain the Mitchell version of the blitz/scramble and the Amor nod to the 7s attack with all that work off the ball, fitness issues further made worse by Covid/reduced EPS size and the lack of match fitness for the Sarries lads (and then some mental fitness issues with England seemingly being more stringent on the bubble front than just about everyone else in the 6N)
If pace on the snip then Youngs can do that, it's just not always or even often an option.
There is perhaps an intent to play we'd get from Randall and Smith, I just doubt they'd be much faster. Whether they'd be better is a different thing again, not sure how they'd instantly make up the lack of experience, but maybe down the line they'd raise the ceiling. Or maybe someone else emerges altogether
And I'm still not sure why we'd hope Youngs isn't going to play if he keeps playing as he has been of more recent times. It just seems an odd thing to want to tell someone playing (really) well to do one.
If England given up on playing faster and go back to more kicking I'm not going to like that, but even then with the stick Youngs would get I don't know a chance in selection is much of a solution when the tactics would be much more a root of the failings
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:56 pm
by Raggs
Have to agree with Rhubarb for the most part. Youngs played well in the last 6N and played at high pace. A pure kicking game suits him, and a quickfire game suits him.
I'd like to see us actually give others a serious shot, but can't deny Youngs has been a problem recently.
Sort out the forwards giving absolutely stupid penalties, and things will go far better.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:59 pm
by Kawazaki
Not many people will agree with your premise that Youngs was playing well. It's difficult to really progress your points beyond that.
Rhubarb & Custard wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 1:03 pm
Meh. I have in the past been more than a little grumpy watching Ben Youngs. But truth be told he has been very good again, and for a while now. Arguably he even had a better 6N than Dupont, he's not the same talent as Dupont, but his actual decision making was better. And if he carries on like that then we've just got a very good player who's playing really well.
It would be nice to see someone put him under more pressure for selection, we refused to even look at that since dropping Care until Robson came in, from which point Robson hasn't exactly delivered as he'd have liked. Whether Robson gets more chances or Randall is the next up I don't know, but I would like whichever of them we get to really push for the starting role, and if Youngs holds them off so be it.
Hopefully Van Portvliet will keep Youngs out of the Tigers starting XV on a regular basis on his way to replacing him in the England set up.
To be fair to Robson, he hasn't really been given a decent run by Jones at all. Mind you I do relish the thought of Randall bringing some much needed pace to the England game alongside Marcus Smith
Pace in what sense? We've rarely seen England play faster than they did last 6N with Youngs and Ford. The issues were around set piece, penalties and perhaps fitness to sustain the Mitchell version of the blitz/scramble and the Amor nod to the 7s attack with all that work off the ball, fitness issues further made worse by Covid/reduced EPS size and the lack of match fitness for the Sarries lads (and then some mental fitness issues with England seemingly being more stringent on the bubble front than just about everyone else in the 6N)
If pace on the snip then Youngs can do that, it's just not always or even often an option.
There is perhaps an intent to play we'd get from Randall and Smith, I just doubt they'd be much faster. Whether they'd be better is a different thing again, not sure how they'd instantly make up the lack of experience, but maybe down the line they'd raise the ceiling. Or maybe someone else emerges altogether
And I'm still not sure why we'd hope Youngs isn't going to play if he keeps playing as he has been of more recent times. It just seems an odd thing to want to tell someone playing (really) well to do one.
If England given up on playing faster and go back to more kicking I'm not going to like that, but even then with the stick Youngs would get I don't know a chance in selection is much of a solution when the tactics would be much more a root of the failings
My recollection differs from yours and that during the 6N Youngs and Ford were kicking the leather off the ball at every opportunity playing fairly negative positional and box kick rugby.
With regards to Youngs in particular
Poor against Scotland
OK against Italy
Poor against Wales
Ok against France
V Poor against Ireland
My reference to Randall and Smith should have been speed of passing rather than pace on the game in general
It's all moot anyway as who bloody knows what Jones will do or who he will pick!!!!
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:50 pm
by Raggs
SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:43 pm
My recollection differs from yours and that during the 6N Youngs and Ford were kicking the leather off the ball at every opportunity playing fairly negative positional and box kick rugby.
With regards to Youngs in particular
Poor against Scotland
OK against Italy
Poor against Wales
Ok against France
V Poor against Ireland
My reference to Randall and Smith should have been speed of passing rather than pace on the game in general
It's all moot anyway as who bloody knows what Jones will do or who he will pick!!!!
Watch again, especially the later games. We lost those dues to ridiculous penalty counts.
We massively reduced the amount of kick tennis by dropping Billy back and having him run it up. He wasn't looking for breaks, he was looking to involve as many defenders as possible, making it near impossible for the opponents to win turnovers as there were at least 2 of them on the wrong side after getting him down, turnovers are the big risk of running back kick tennis, BV neutralises this well.
We were playing fast, really bloody fast at times, and it suited Youngs well, no need to think, get to the ruck, get it out to the next runner or Ford if he's calling it. Sure we slowed down at times, but the attack was built around going quick as hell.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:44 pm
by Stranger
Youngs is fine, he obviously plays way Eddie tells him to, it is why he keeps getting picked. If he is slowing the game right down blame Eddie not him.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Aug 20, 2021 6:10 pm
by Kawazaki
Stranger wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 5:44 pm
Youngs is fine, he obviously plays way Eddie tells him to, it is why he keeps getting picked. If he is slowing the game right down blame Eddie not him.
Nah, he's shite for Leicester as well (if he can get in the team).
SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:43 pm
My recollection differs from yours and that during the 6N Youngs and Ford were kicking the leather off the ball at every opportunity playing fairly negative positional and box kick rugby.
With regards to Youngs in particular
Poor against Scotland
OK against Italy
Poor against Wales
Ok against France
V Poor against Ireland
My reference to Randall and Smith should have been speed of passing rather than pace on the game in general
It's all moot anyway as who bloody knows what Jones will do or who he will pick!!!!
Watch again, especially the later games. We lost those dues to ridiculous penalty counts.
We massively reduced the amount of kick tennis by dropping Billy back and having him run it up. He wasn't looking for breaks, he was looking to involve as many defenders as possible, making it near impossible for the opponents to win turnovers as there were at least 2 of them on the wrong side after getting him down, turnovers are the big risk of running back kick tennis, BV neutralises this well.
We were playing fast, really bloody fast at times, and it suited Youngs well, no need to think, get to the ruck, get it out to the next runner or Ford if he's calling it. Sure we slowed down at times, but the attack was built around going quick as hell.
Indeed, some of the fastest phase play I've ever seen from any side, ever. Wasn't entirely accurate, but they only played a small handful of games like that, and then we get to Saint's point about we've no idea what Eddie and the new attack coach will do next, and actually that's quite true, we can speculate at best.
Also true we did still kick, but christ alive it'd get hard not kicking
SaintK wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:43 pm
My recollection differs from yours and that during the 6N Youngs and Ford were kicking the leather off the ball at every opportunity playing fairly negative positional and box kick rugby.
With regards to Youngs in particular
Poor against Scotland
OK against Italy
Poor against Wales
Ok against France
V Poor against Ireland
My reference to Randall and Smith should have been speed of passing rather than pace on the game in general
It's all moot anyway as who bloody knows what Jones will do or who he will pick!!!!
Watch again, especially the later games. We lost those dues to ridiculous penalty counts.
We massively reduced the amount of kick tennis by dropping Billy back and having him run it up. He wasn't looking for breaks, he was looking to involve as many defenders as possible, making it near impossible for the opponents to win turnovers as there were at least 2 of them on the wrong side after getting him down, turnovers are the big risk of running back kick tennis, BV neutralises this well.
We were playing fast, really bloody fast at times, and it suited Youngs well, no need to think, get to the ruck, get it out to the next runner or Ford if he's calling it. Sure we slowed down at times, but the attack was built around going quick as hell.
No chance of watching that dross again !!! Billy V should have been nowhere neara the starting team in the 6N either, he was grossly unfit.
A-9 points difference and the fewest tries scored apart from Italy sums it all up
We will have to agree to disagree.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:25 am
by Raggs
SaintK wrote: ↑Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:57 am
No chance of watching that dross again !!! Billy V should have been nowhere neara the starting team in the 6N either, he was grossly unfit.
A-9 points difference and the fewest tries scored apart from Italy sums it all up
We will have to agree to disagree.
It was the penalty count that killed us. We couldn't get momentum or field position due to daft penalties killing us. BV let us stop the kick tennis.
Now it was annoying to see us lose the kick tennis game so often (the Scots massacred us there), but at least we found a way to break out of it and retain possession. Billy wasn't meant to be breaking the line with amazing acceleration, he was meant to be running at a big clump of bodies, to stop them turning him over. A half break (or even a full one), would have more likely lead to a turnover, than a try.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:37 am
by Rhubarb & Custard
There is a fair point Billy shouldn't have made the team turning up to camp so unfit. One could argue either way on that front, but it's a valid concern even if one still ended up on the side of picking Billy.
I think perhaps I wouldn't, but given the situation around Sarries and Covid I'd be much more lenient in reviewing this situation than I'd ordinarily be.
A fair point also one wants to be careful around how you attack such you don't get turned over or concede penalties, we've just seen a great example of how to lose on penalties with the Lions, and really the difference for the Lions in the penalty count came on attack. There are perhaps some structural problems in just how hard it is to support attack, but that doesn't change how the refs will ping a side for now. Anyway, Billy was doing what was asked on returning the ball, and he did play his way into the series, it's just a shame he's not a model pro and needs games to maintain fitness so, but not everyone is going to be a model pro
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:55 pm
by SaintK
Good result for Italu U18's! Their U20's looked more than useful in the recent 6N as well.
Italy Under-18s beat England 27-17 at Millfield School as several Guinness Six Nations stars of the future shone in Somerset
One for Saints supporters.
Looks an interesting signing.
Perhaps we wont see so much of the lumbering Fijian giant?
[media] [/media]
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:33 pm
by sockwithaticket
Saw that one earlier. Wing didn't strike me as an area you need to spend money on.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:41 pm
by Kawazaki
SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:02 pm
One for Saints supporters.
Looks an interesting signing.
Perhaps we wont see so much of the lumbering Fijian giant?
[media] [/media]
Great, more capped Saffas taking up slots in the English game.
Incidentally, the pass at 2:46 must be the most forward pass I've ever seen in a test match.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 5:49 pm
by inactionman
Ellis Genge replaces Tom Youngs as Leicester Captain.
Hmm. Not sure I'd perceived him as captaincy material, but he'll do oa good job of firing everyone up. Does this also mean the start of the end of the Youngs influence at Leicester?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:10 pm
by sockwithaticket
Cockerill confirmed as forwards coach and our new defence coach is an NRL head I've never heard of.
Hmm. Not sure I'd perceived him as captaincy material, but he'll do oa good job of firing everyone up. Does this also mean the start of the end of the Youngs influence at Leicester?
He captained England this Summer. He'd also be one of the few senior players left at Leciester after Borthwick's fairly rigorous clear out and of that number one of the only ones not likely to be retiring fairly soon.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:12 pm
by Oxbow
For anybody starved of rugby, I've just discovered that Ulster v Saracens is currently on iPlayer.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:32 pm
by Kawazaki
Saracens look very good.
Alex Goode is such a good player.
Look out Premiership, these guys are top-4 material.
