Calcutta Cup match thread

[I like neeps]

The last scrums the BBC have the skycam footage in highlights package. I'm not sure you can describe Marler as anything but at an angle. So penalty Scotland and all is right with the world.

The two cross field kicks is so clever, I guess someone saw the blindside wingers cover the backfield so you have a forward on the wing. I think we'll see Smith, Ntamack and Sexton try this. A very interesting wrinkle tactically.

Also Eddie Jones has to go. England have maybe the most entertaining domestic league, huge amounts of talent. A lot more money than anyone except maybe France. And he has them playing like cement, playing Ben Youngs over the 20 really class exciting 9s pretty much every club has. Continuing with Daly. Awful tactics. Awful coaching. I think people talk about Scotland not having the mentality and maybe we don't. But England in all sports really seem happy to be underperformers - no chance with their domestic strengths they shouldn't be winning rugby, football and cricket tournaments more often. Rather than believing in themselves and going and taking games to the opposition it seems in the big spots they play within their ability as damage limitation. A bit strange really.

[Slick]

Great game, great result. After last night's match, I've decided I have to get up to Murrayfield for a match. When Scotland are on form, looks like the ultimate stadium to watch a game.

Let us know and there will be a ticket for you

[weegie01]

Great game, great result. After last night's match, I've decided I have to get up to Murrayfield for a match. When Scotland are on form, looks like the ultimate stadium to watch a game.

That phrase 'When Scotland are on form....' does some heavy lifting.

Murrayfield has been famously quiet for years. I remember the first flutterings of Scotland being quite decent. The crowd would get going a bit, but we knew that sooner or later the team would find a way to mess it up. We can't quite believe what we are seeing now. I manage Edinburgh games, but due to a heart issue I can't watch Scotland any more as I get literal palpitations from excitement. But I was there in 2018, the last game I'll see at Murrayfield. I was of the verge of tears as the crowd sang the team home.

This is a once in a generation period for Scottish rugby, and the crowd are making the most of it.

[Openside]

The shots from above showed Schoeman dominating his man and driving forward. I will watch it again, but I don't think Nel went back, the scrum wheeled.

It's a lot easier for the loosehead to be dominant, it's just the way a scrum works. The scrum wheeled and the fact that many times those scrums are decided to be a penalty for the side who feeds actually shows that most times refs want to get the scrum over and done with as a way to restart play.

Certainly today the ref wasn't interested in establishing a scrum pattern,

Props and coaches have brought this situation about by trying to milk penalties, I don't blame the refs

Again, I haven’t watched it as yet, but I can entirely understand a ref not wanting a tight game to be decided by a scrum penalty when it’s often so hard to be sure who actually infringed. I have thought for a while that scrum penalties should mostly be replaced by free kicks - the team with a dominant scrum already has an advantage, they don’t need to be able to win regular penalties with it as well.

Totally agree the fatties have turned this restart to the game into the biggest waste of time imaginable. Pushing a team backwards now equals a penalty wtf??

[Slick]

Great game, great result. After last night's match, I've decided I have to get up to Murrayfield for a match. When Scotland are on form, looks like the ultimate stadium to watch a game.

That phrase 'When Scotland are on form....' does some heavy lifting.

Murrayfield has been famously quiet for years. I remember the first flutterings of Scotland being quite decent. The crowd would get going a bit, but we knew that sooner or later the team would find a way to mess it up. We can't quite believe what we are seeing now. I manage Edinburgh games, but due to a heart issue I can't watch Scotland any more as I get literal palpitations from excitement. But I was there in 2018, the last game I'll see at Murrayfield. I was of the verge of tears as the crowd sang the team home.

This is a once in a generation period for Scottish rugby, and the crowd are making the most of it.

Yes, was the best atmosphere I can remember for a while, just didn’t seem to have any of the lull periods and when the singing started it was roared out.

[sefton]

The shots from above showed Schoeman dominating his man and driving forward. I will watch it again, but I don't think Nel went back, the scrum wheeled.

It's a lot easier for the loosehead to be dominant, it's just the way a scrum works. The scrum wheeled and the fact that many times those scrums are decided to be a penalty for the side who feeds actually shows that most times refs want to get the scrum over and done with as a way to restart play.

Certainly today the ref wasn't interested in establishing a scrum pattern,

Props and coaches have brought this situation about by trying to milk penalties, I don't blame the refs

Again, I haven’t watched it as yet, but I can entirely understand a ref not wanting a tight game to be decided by a scrum penalty when it’s often so hard to be sure who actually infringed. I have thought for a while that scrum penalties should mostly be replaced by free kicks - the team with a dominant scrum already has an advantage, they don’t need to be able to win regular penalties with it as well.

Totally agree the fatties have turned this restart to the game into the biggest waste of time imaginable. Pushing a team backwards now equals a penalty wtf??

You people make me sick, the scrum is an art form, not a reason for the coiffured ones to check their make up in a mirror.

[Slick]

Well, turned out to be a great win. I felt watching it that is we could just get some possession we would pull away and England were just awful with all the ball they had, their kicking was so aimless and backs never looked like doing anything.

We made it hard for ourselves as usual, particularly playing in the wrong places sometimes and especially in the first half we just needed to go through a few phases and keep the ball.

Thought Finn gave young Marcus a masterclass in control, although he obviously did very well for the try and was pretty pleased when Eddie pulled him.

[Slick]

I don’t know if they showed it on the telly, but after the whistle 3 England players, I think George, Genge and the big 2nd row, broke off from the team huddle and walked round the edge of the pitch clapping the supporters. A really great touch

[Yr Alban]

Great game, great result. After last night's match, I've decided I have to get up to Murrayfield for a match. When Scotland are on form, looks like the ultimate stadium to watch a game.

That phrase 'When Scotland are on form....' does some heavy lifting.

Murrayfield has been famously quiet for years. I remember the first flutterings of Scotland being quite decent. The crowd would get going a bit, but we knew that sooner or later the team would find a way to mess it up. We can't quite believe what we are seeing now. I manage Edinburgh games, but due to a heart issue I can't watch Scotland any more as I get literal palpitations from excitement. But I was there in 2018, the last game I'll see at Murrayfield. I was of the verge of tears as the crowd sang the team home.

This is a once in a generation period for Scottish rugby, and the crowd are making the most of it.

I really hope you’re wrong about the ‘once in a generation’ part. I can stand being also-rans most of the time, but I can’t go back to the dark times of 10 years back.

[Yr Alban]

I don’t know if they showed it on the telly, but after the whistle 3 England players, I think George, Genge and the big 2nd row, broke off from the team huddle and walked round the edge of the pitch clapping the supporters. A really great touch

It was played in the right spirit and you could see it at the end. LCD apologised for fucking up on Twitter and got a ton of messages from Scotland fans commiserating with him.

[Paddington Bear]

I don’t know if they showed it on the telly, but after the whistle 3 England players, I think George, Genge and the big 2nd row, broke off from the team huddle and walked round the edge of the pitch clapping the supporters. A really great touch

It was played in the right spirit and you could see it at the end. LCD apologised for fucking up on Twitter and got a ton of messages from Scotland fans commiserating with him.

Two teams of broadly good blokes and fans behaving themselves. Pub was full of handshakes and rounds between strangers. Doesn’t seem right

[Tattie]

The shots from above showed Schoeman dominating his man and driving forward. I will watch it again, but I don't think Nel went back, the scrum wheeled.

It's a lot easier for the loosehead to be dominant, it's just the way a scrum works. The scrum wheeled and the fact that many times those scrums are decided to be a penalty for the side who feeds actually shows that most times refs want to get the scrum over and done with as a way to restart play.

Certainly today the ref wasn't interested in establishing a scrum pattern,

Props and coaches have brought this situation about by trying to milk penalties, I don't blame the refs

Again, I haven’t watched it as yet, but I can entirely understand a ref not wanting a tight game to be decided by a scrum penalty when it’s often so hard to be sure who actually infringed. I have thought for a while that scrum penalties should mostly be replaced by free kicks - the team with a dominant scrum already has an advantage, they don’t need to be able to win regular penalties with it as well.

Totally agree the fatties have turned this restart to the game into the biggest waste of time imaginable. Pushing a team backwards now equals a penalty wtf??

Yeah, I hate that rule. Surely dominating a scrum, pushing your opponents back and setting up good possession is advantage enough and is the whole point of scrums? I get it if it’s near the try line and the scrum is being deliberately collapsed, give a penalty then.

Another one that bugs me is giving a penalty for accidental offside, happened yesterday when price ran into ?? Surely turning over possession with a free kick for the opposition is plenty. By definition it’s accidental so no one is trying deliberately to gain an unfair advantage. Crossing or blocking, fine give a penalty, but to give away a penalty by accidentally running into one of your own players is ridiculous.

[petej]

I don’t know if they showed it on the telly, but after the whistle 3 England players, I think George, Genge and the big 2nd row, broke off from the team huddle and walked round the edge of the pitch clapping the supporters. A really great touch

It was played in the right spirit and you could see it at the end. LCD apologised for fucking up on Twitter and got a ton of messages from Scotland fans commiserating with him.

Two teams of broadly good blokes and fans behaving themselves. Pub was full of handshakes and rounds between strangers. Doesn’t seem right

It was frustrating from an England perspective but was a good competitive match to watch in not great conditions. Scotland are a very good team currently and England are nowhere near as bad as the England thread is making out. I thought the ref was good as well. Kind of a shame it was not one of the last matches played in better conditions at the end of the tournament which would have been better for running rugby.

[Paddington Bear]

It was played in the right spirit and you could see it at the end. LCD apologised for fucking up on Twitter and got a ton of messages from Scotland fans commiserating with him.

Two teams of broadly good blokes and fans behaving themselves. Pub was full of handshakes and rounds between strangers. Doesn’t seem right

It was frustrating from an England perspective but was a good competitive match to watch in not great conditions. Scotland are a very good team currently and England are nowhere near as bad as the England thread is making out. I thought the ref was good as well. Kind of a shame it was not one of the last matches played in better conditions at the end of the tournament which would have been better for running rugby.

Yes I don’t begrudge them their win, frustrated we didn’t finish it off when we had the chance (s) to but there we are

[Torquemada 1420]

Another one that bugs me is giving a penalty for accidental offside, happened yesterday when price ran into ?? Surely turning over possession with a free kick for the opposition is plenty. By definition it’s accidental so no one is trying deliberately to gain an unfair advantage. Crossing or blocking, fine give a penalty, but to give away a penalty by accidentally running into one of your own players is ridiculous.

Too many of these in the game. Player in front of the kicker is another. You had the ball and so surely turning it over (a free kick) is plenty. Pens really should be only for cheating (incl persistent infringing) and foul play.

[Biffer]

I don’t know if they showed it on the telly, but after the whistle 3 England players, I think George, Genge and the big 2nd row, broke off from the team huddle and walked round the edge of the pitch clapping the supporters. A really great touch

Thought it was Genge and the TH. Nice touch from them. Some of the other players started it with them but appeared to be called back?

[assfly]

Let us know and there will be a ticket for you

Good man!

[Crash669]

Well, turned out to be a great win. I felt watching it that is we could just get some possession we would pull away and England were just awful with all the ball they had, their kicking was so aimless and backs never looked like doing anything.

We made it hard for ourselves as usual, particularly playing in the wrong places sometimes and especially in the first half we just needed to go through a few phases and keep the ball.

Thought Finn gave young Marcus a masterclass in control, although he obviously did very well for the try and was pretty pleased when Eddie pulled him.

Only bit I'd disagree with was you making it hard for yourselves. Seemed like you really trusted your defence and the tackle stats justified that. Bit of a roper dope really, waiting to take your chance when it came.

On Russell Vs Smith the big difference is Russell has the confidence of a coach who will let him run a back line. When something's on Finn calls it, the 9 gets him quick ball and the play is on. Smith MUST PLAY TO THE PLAN otherwise he will be dropped, he might still get dropped after that game because Eddie is such a spiteful cunt. If we had an English version of when Russell and Townsend fell out you'd never see Smith in an England shirt again - except maybe getting put in the training squad to be deliberately injured because that's the sort of bloke Eddie is. Scotland just played with Finn calling the shots, England's backs had a two second delay in everything they did because their instinct said one thing before they remembered "Wait, Eddie said kick it so I should kick this good attacking ball away. Preferably poorly and to no effect."

Basically it would be more fair to judge Marcus Vs Finn in club colours because then you'd be comparing them both playing the same game, not one playing rugby and one deploying The Jones Master plan.

[westport]

I don’t know if they showed it on the telly, but after the whistle 3 England players, I think George, Genge and the big 2nd row, broke off from the team huddle and walked round the edge of the pitch clapping the supporters. A really great touch

There was just a brief glimpse of it. Also Curry going up to Ritchie on his crutches and chatting to him for a little while - the way it should be.

[Crash669]

It was frustrating from an England perspective but was a good competitive match to watch in not great conditions. Scotland are a very good team currently and England are nowhere near as bad as the England thread is making out. I thought the ref was good as well. Kind of a shame it was not one of the last matches played in better conditions at the end of the tournament which would have been better for running rugby.

I think it's because England aren't THAT bad that it's so frustrating, the players are there and the team's being hamstrung by Eddie Jones' plan and selecting Ben Youngs.

[Slick]

It was frustrating from an England perspective but was a good competitive match to watch in not great conditions. Scotland are a very good team currently and England are nowhere near as bad as the England thread is making out. I thought the ref was good as well. Kind of a shame it was not one of the last matches played in better conditions at the end of the tournament which would have been better for running rugby.

I think it's because England aren't THAT bad that it's so frustrating, the players are there and the team's being hamstrung by Eddie Jones' plan and selecting Ben Youngs.

Is there any chance at all that the RFU will boot Eddie out? He just seems to be wasting a lot of peoples time.

[shaggy]

Again, I haven’t watched it as yet, but I can entirely understand a ref not wanting a tight game to be decided by a scrum penalty when it’s often so hard to be sure who actually infringed. I have thought for a while that scrum penalties should mostly be replaced by free kicks - the team with a dominant scrum already has an advantage, they don’t need to be able to win regular penalties with it as well.

Totally agree the fatties have turned this restart to the game into the biggest waste of time imaginable. Pushing a team backwards now equals a penalty wtf??

Yeah, I hate that rule. Surely dominating a scrum, pushing your opponents back and setting up good possession is advantage enough and is the whole point of scrums? I get it if it’s near the try line and the scrum is being deliberately collapsed, give a penalty then.

Another one that bugs me is giving a penalty for accidental offside, happened yesterday when price ran into ?? Surely turning over possession with a free kick for the opposition is plenty. By definition it’s accidental so no one is trying deliberately to gain an unfair advantage. Crossing or blocking, fine give a penalty, but to give away a penalty by accidentally running into one of your own players is ridiculous.

He wasn’t penalised for running into his own player, the player blocking a legitimate tackle was penalised.

[sockwithaticket]

Yeah, if it was just an accidental offside it would have been a scrum advantage, but it ended up being full blown obstruction.

[C69]

If Smith had stayed on England would have won. Why was he subbed?

[PCPhil]

If Smith had stayed on England would have won. Why was he subbed?

We’ll never know the answer to whether we would have won or not but it did seem the whole team attitude changed. Oh, in answer to your question I think is was planned substitution, decision made back in December i think.

[weegie01]

Townsend deserves a great deal of credit.

When he became Scotland coach he was promulgating the 'fastest rugby' theory. Whilst he had some successes, that did not work out he was forced to rethink. Then he went 180 degrees to turgid defence. When that did not work out he learned his lessons again and Scotland now have a good balance between attack and defence.

It was clear from the start that Townsend was going to have to learn on the job as he came in having only coached at Glasgow. He has done that and made Scotland a decent all round side, not least by getting the right coaching team in place. The SRU deserve some praise as well for having taken the chance and then stuck with him.

It will be interesting to see what happens from now on. He is 48 now so has many years left in him.

[Tattie]

Totally agree the fatties have turned this restart to the game into the biggest waste of time imaginable. Pushing a team backwards now equals a penalty wtf??

Yeah, I hate that rule. Surely dominating a scrum, pushing your opponents back and setting up good possession is advantage enough and is the whole point of scrums? I get it if it’s near the try line and the scrum is being deliberately collapsed, give a penalty then.

Another one that bugs me is giving a penalty for accidental offside, happened yesterday when price ran into ?? Surely turning over possession with a free kick for the opposition is plenty. By definition it’s accidental so no one is trying deliberately to gain an unfair advantage. Crossing or blocking, fine give a penalty, but to give away a penalty by accidentally running into one of your own players is ridiculous.

He wasn’t penalised for running into his own player, the player blocking a legitimate tackle was penalised.

Yes, you’re correct. I stand corrected.

[I like neeps]

Again, I haven’t watched it as yet, but I can entirely understand a ref not wanting a tight game to be decided by a scrum penalty when it’s often so hard to be sure who actually infringed. I have thought for a while that scrum penalties should mostly be replaced by free kicks - the team with a dominant scrum already has an advantage, they don’t need to be able to win regular penalties with it as well.

Totally agree the fatties have turned this restart to the game into the biggest waste of time imaginable. Pushing a team backwards now equals a penalty wtf??

Yeah, I hate that rule. Surely dominating a scrum, pushing your opponents back and setting up good possession is advantage enough and is the whole point of scrums? I get it if it’s near the try line and the scrum is being deliberately collapsed, give a penalty then.

Another one that bugs me is giving a penalty for accidental offside, happened yesterday when price ran into ?? Surely turning over possession with a free kick for the opposition is plenty. By definition it’s accidental so no one is trying deliberately to gain an unfair advantage. Crossing or blocking, fine give a penalty, but to give away a penalty by accidentally running into one of your own players is ridiculous.

The scrum domination makes sense - if you're pushing a team back and they collapse, stand up or spin round the dominant side is losing metres compared to if the dominated team had stayed up and square and gone back further.

Marler is nowhere near square though so it's a penalty to Scotland:


So there really can be no complaints.

[shaggy]

Yeah, I hate that rule. Surely dominating a scrum, pushing your opponents back and setting up good possession is advantage enough and is the whole point of scrums? I get it if it’s near the try line and the scrum is being deliberately collapsed, give a penalty then.

Another one that bugs me is giving a penalty for accidental offside, happened yesterday when price ran into ?? Surely turning over possession with a free kick for the opposition is plenty. By definition it’s accidental so no one is trying deliberately to gain an unfair advantage. Crossing or blocking, fine give a penalty, but to give away a penalty by accidentally running into one of your own players is ridiculous.

He wasn’t penalised for running into his own player, the player blocking a legitimate tackle was penalised.

Yes, you’re correct. I stand corrected.

I guess that is the danger of listening to and believing that Nigel Owens can be fair and objective when England play as he did say he would not penalise Scotland for it.

[Big D]

[Lobby]

He wasn’t penalised for running into his own player, the player blocking a legitimate tackle was penalised.

Yes, you’re correct. I stand corrected.

I guess that is the danger of listening to and believing that Nigel Owens can be fair and objective when England play as he did say he would not penalise Scotland for it.

Owens' view throughout the match was that the penalties awarded against Scotland were 'harsh' or shouldn't have been given, even when technically correct. He was inclined to be a little less forgiving on the penalties awarded against England

[pjm1]

Great, exciting game. Not brilliant performances and both sides will want to work on fixing the deficiencies but Scotland more clinical and edged it.

Two points:

Jeez, I’ll get PTSD if I remember the moment I realised he was actually going to throw in.

Only allowed thr sub for a scrum IIRC.

You can still make a substitution. Just means you are sacrificing someone who'll stay off and will need to be replaced instead of LCD coming back on after the card period was up.

Slight correction: if you sub a prop (say Marler) for George then when the first scrum happens you can then make a temporary sub for the rest of the sin bin period (back row off, Marler back on). You can make front row subs repeatedly in order to keep scrums being contested.

Also, people saying scrums advancing should be reward enough and no need for a penalty: it’s all about safety. That’s the first priority of a ref. A retreating scrum is not a safe place to be and it’s right it’s blown and a penalty awarded. That’s not really commenting on the final few minutes but I can sympathise with O’Keefe for not wanting the game decided on a 50:50 call.

[Big D]

Yes, you’re correct. I stand corrected.

I guess that is the danger of listening to and believing that Nigel Owens can be fair and objective when England play as he did say he would not penalise Scotland for it.

Owens' view throughout the match was that the penalties awarded against Scotland were 'harsh' or shouldn't have been given, even when technically correct. He was inclined to be a little less forgiving on the penalties awarded against England

That was one thing the ref annoyed me about yesterday. By all means pick up on "technical" penalties, such as touching the 9 despite Marchant picking and going through the ruck. But then he needs to ref things like squint throws correctly. Which he didn't.

Having rewatched I think he got most things right, a couple of 50/50s but if he intends to be a pedantic ref then he should be full on pedant rather than occasional pedant.

[JM2K6]

Great, exciting game. Not brilliant performances and both sides will want to work on fixing the deficiencies but Scotland more clinical and edged it.

Two points:

Only allowed thr sub for a scrum IIRC.

You can still make a substitution. Just means you are sacrificing someone who'll stay off and will need to be replaced instead of LCD coming back on after the card period was up.

Slight correction: if you sub a prop (say Marler) for George then when the first scrum happens you can then make a temporary sub for the rest of the sin bin period (back row off, Marler back on). You can make front row subs repeatedly in order to keep scrums being contested.

Also, people saying scrums advancing should be reward enough and no need for a penalty: it’s all about safety. That’s the first priority of a ref. A retreating scrum is not a safe place to be and it’s right it’s blown and a penalty awarded. That’s not really commenting on the final few minutes but I can sympathise with O’Keefe for not wanting the game decided on a 50:50 call.

The officials would not have allowed the George for Marler swap.

[pjm1]

That was one thing the ref annoyed me about yesterday. By all means pick up on "technical" penalties, such as touching the 9 despite Marchant picking and going through the ruck. But then he needs to ref things like squint throws correctly. Which he didn't.

Having rewatched I think he got most things right, a couple of 50/50s but if he intends to be a pedantic ref then he should be full on pedant rather than occasional pedant.

I’m not so sure. Refs are free to say to the teams before the game what they are going to focus on (I certainly do) without claiming they’re going to be nailing everything else with the whistle. Empathy is really important and whilst fans might think BoK didn’t show as much as they’d like, he did let the game flow in some areas where he was happy enough with the materiality of any perceived offence.

Not saying he was perfect because he clearly wasn’t but as an England fan I certainly don’t think his decisions (or lack thereof) impacted our outcome - we and some good Scottish play did that all by itself.

[pjm1]

Great, exciting game. Not brilliant performances and both sides will want to work on fixing the deficiencies but Scotland more clinical and edged it.

Two points:

You can still make a substitution. Just means you are sacrificing someone who'll stay off and will need to be replaced instead of LCD coming back on after the card period was up.

Slight correction: if you sub a prop (say Marler) for George then when the first scrum happens you can then make a temporary sub for the rest of the sin bin period (back row off, Marler back on). You can make front row subs repeatedly in order to keep scrums being contested.

Also, people saying scrums advancing should be reward enough and no need for a penalty: it’s all about safety. That’s the first priority of a ref. A retreating scrum is not a safe place to be and it’s right it’s blown and a penalty awarded. That’s not really commenting on the final few minutes but I can sympathise with O’Keefe for not wanting the game decided on a 50:50 call.

The officials would not have allowed the George for Marler swap.

I suspect you are right but I honestly can’t see anything in the laws about it being illegal. It’s certainly not in the spirit of the game but the laws tend to refer to “front row players” as a block rather than distinguishing between hooker and prop (except for confirming they can play in the required position at scrum time).

It might be one of those things that needs to be tried before the laws are “clarified” - a bit like the Italian tackle offside trick a few years ago.

[JM2K6]

Great, exciting game. Not brilliant performances and both sides will want to work on fixing the deficiencies but Scotland more clinical and edged it.

Two points:



Slight correction: if you sub a prop (say Marler) for George then when the first scrum happens you can then make a temporary sub for the rest of the sin bin period (back row off, Marler back on). You can make front row subs repeatedly in order to keep scrums being contested.

Also, people saying scrums advancing should be reward enough and no need for a penalty: it’s all about safety. That’s the first priority of a ref. A retreating scrum is not a safe place to be and it’s right it’s blown and a penalty awarded. That’s not really commenting on the final few minutes but I can sympathise with O’Keefe for not wanting the game decided on a 50:50 call.

The officials would not have allowed the George for Marler swap.

I suspect you are right but I honestly can’t see anything in the laws about it being illegal. It’s certainly not in the spirit of the game but the laws tend to refer to “front row players” as a block rather than distinguishing between hooker and prop (except for confirming they can play in the required position at scrum time).

It might be one of those things that needs to be tried before the laws are “clarified” - a bit like the Italian tackle offside trick a few years ago.

I think you're just not allowed to replace a specialist in the front row with someone who cannot scrum in that position.

[Yr Alban]

Great, exciting game. Not brilliant performances and both sides will want to work on fixing the deficiencies but Scotland more clinical and edged it.

Two points:

Only allowed thr sub for a scrum IIRC.

You can still make a substitution. Just means you are sacrificing someone who'll stay off and will need to be replaced instead of LCD coming back on after the card period was up.

Slight correction: if you sub a prop (say Marler) for George then when the first scrum happens you can then make a temporary sub for the rest of the sin bin period (back row off, Marler back on). You can make front row subs repeatedly in order to keep scrums being contested.

Also, people saying scrums advancing should be reward enough and no need for a penalty: it’s all about safety. That’s the first priority of a ref. A retreating scrum is not a safe place to be and it’s right it’s blown and a penalty awarded. That’s not really commenting on the final few minutes but I can sympathise with O’Keefe for not wanting the game decided on a 50:50 call.

Yes, I totally get the safety argument, but the side going forward doesn’t have to be rewarded with a chance to score points every time. Apart from the fact that it gives a further advantage to the side with a dominant pack, many referees decide who has the upper hand early on and then relentlessly penalise the ‘weaker’ team. This could have happened yesterday as England were stronger in the scrums overall, and the ref could have just awarded them a pen, when the overhead footage suggests this would have been dubious at best.

Just reduce most of the scrum penalties to free kicks. Much fairer, and will lead to a better game, as there will be no point in using your scrum to milk penalties.

[JM2K6]

Great, exciting game. Not brilliant performances and both sides will want to work on fixing the deficiencies but Scotland more clinical and edged it.

Two points:

You can still make a substitution. Just means you are sacrificing someone who'll stay off and will need to be replaced instead of LCD coming back on after the card period was up.

Slight correction: if you sub a prop (say Marler) for George then when the first scrum happens you can then make a temporary sub for the rest of the sin bin period (back row off, Marler back on). You can make front row subs repeatedly in order to keep scrums being contested.

Also, people saying scrums advancing should be reward enough and no need for a penalty: it’s all about safety. That’s the first priority of a ref. A retreating scrum is not a safe place to be and it’s right it’s blown and a penalty awarded. That’s not really commenting on the final few minutes but I can sympathise with O’Keefe for not wanting the game decided on a 50:50 call.

Yes, I totally get the safety argument, but the side going forward doesn’t have to be rewarded with a chance to score points every time. Apart from the fact that it gives a further advantage to the side with a dominant pack, many referees decide who has the upper hand early on and then relentlessly penalise the ‘weaker’ team. This could have happened yesterday as England were stronger in the scrums overall, and the ref could have just awarded them a pen, when the overhead footage suggests this would have been dubious at best.

Just reduce most of the scrum penalties to free kicks. Much fairer, and will lead to a better game, as there will be no point in using your scrum to milk penalties.

That's been trialled already, and it was absolute shit.

[Lobby]

Great, exciting game. Not brilliant performances and both sides will want to work on fixing the deficiencies but Scotland more clinical and edged it.

Two points:

You can still make a substitution. Just means you are sacrificing someone who'll stay off and will need to be replaced instead of LCD coming back on after the card period was up.

Slight correction: if you sub a prop (say Marler) for George then when the first scrum happens you can then make a temporary sub for the rest of the sin bin period (back row off, Marler back on). You can make front row subs repeatedly in order to keep scrums being contested.

Also, people saying scrums advancing should be reward enough and no need for a penalty: it’s all about safety. That’s the first priority of a ref. A retreating scrum is not a safe place to be and it’s right it’s blown and a penalty awarded. That’s not really commenting on the final few minutes but I can sympathise with O’Keefe for not wanting the game decided on a 50:50 call.

Yes, I totally get the safety argument, but the side going forward doesn’t have to be rewarded with a chance to score points every time. Apart from the fact that it gives a further advantage to the side with a dominant pack, many referees decide who has the upper hand early on and then relentlessly penalise the ‘weaker’ team. This could have happened yesterday as England were stronger in the scrums overall, and the ref could have just awarded them a pen, when the overhead footage suggests this would have been dubious at best.

Just reduce most of the scrum penalties to free kicks. Much fairer, and will lead to a better game, as there will be no point in using your scrum to milk penalties.

That’s just an invitation to the weaker scrum to collapse each time as conceding a free kick is preferable to giving up metres as you are pushed backwards.

The ref started with free kicks yesterday, but when Scotland continued to infringe, he switched to penalties (until the end, when he chickened out of making a decision). In general, that seems the right approach to me.