NPR

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 10:17 am I am still struggling to believe that England didn't get up and win this series. I have been banging on about it - but home advantage, 4 wins out of 4 for the toss - they should have been far and away.

They are definitely the better bowling and batting side - BUT - 18 catches dropped (Root and Stokes 6 each and JB 5) - drops which resulted in 401 extra runs being scored. I find this amazing considering the premium that Baz puts on fielding in matches.

The best thing to come out of this is that piers morgan has been crying up a storm to rival the rains of Manchester - of course simply highlighting his own pleadings of rain in the 2013 Ashes. Anything that brings him displeasure is my happy place.

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 11:01 am Slightly underwhelming last over, end on 245/2

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 12:20 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 11:01 am Slightly underwhelming last over, end on 245/2

Italy all out for 90, Scotland win by 155. Scotland and Ireland both played three won three, this tournament is looking like as much of a forgone conclusion as everyone thought it would be.

Sandstorm wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 12:52 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 12:20 pm

Biffer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 11:01 am Slightly underwhelming last over, end on 245/2

Italy all out for 90, Scotland win by 155. Scotland and Ireland both played three won three, this tournament is looking like as much of a forgone conclusion as everyone thought it would be.

I know you only play the opposition put out in front of you, but..........do Scotland really have to play Italy to qualify? Surely that's waaay below their level these days?

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 2:23 pm Well, that was a criminal way to end a Test series. Time for cricket to bring back the reserve day.

{EDIT} Before I saw the beeb headlining the same!

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 5:32 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 2:23 pm Well, that was a criminal way to end a Test series. Time for cricket to bring back the reserve day.

{EDIT} Before I saw the beeb headlining the same!

I don't think it was. England knew that the likelihood of an interrupted weekend due to weather was on the cards - yet they still went long in their 1st innings. If they had come in with a lead of around 150 (Harry Brooks' wicket)then they would have had an extra 20+ overs to play with.

I can't help but think that England, in their desire to be the swashbuckling team we know they can be, make really poor strategy calls. Early declaration in the first test and a late declaration in the fourth. Aussie was there for the taking - and it appeared that they played for the weather.

Smart cricket v not so smart cricket.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 5:44 pm

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 5:32 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 2:23 pm Well, that was a criminal way to end a Test series. Time for cricket to bring back the reserve day.

{EDIT} Before I saw the beeb headlining the same!

I don't think it was. England knew that the likelihood of an interrupted weekend due to weather was on the cards - yet they still went long in their 1st innings. If they had come in with a lead of around 150 (Harry Brooks' wicket)then they would have had an extra 20+ overs to play with.

I can't help but think that England, in their desire to be the swashbuckling team we know they can be, make really poor strategy calls. Early declaration in the first test and a late declaration in the fourth. Aussie was there for the taking - and it appeared that they played for the weather.

Smart cricket v not so smart cricket.

We made a lot of poor calls in this series, don’t think that was one of them. Remember Australia batted for 70 overs in their second innings and still had plenty of batting to come. On that pitch only a capitulation could have produced a result inside 3.25 days.

The unforgivable calls for me are:
Not picking our best keeper
Declaring on day 1 of the series
Keeping Root on for too long in the second innings at Edgbaston
The batting at Lords’ as we squandered an exceptionally positive position.

The swashbuckling calls were tempered down significantly as the series has progressed, no shock results have improved.

And I’ll be fair, I’d be pretty satisfied to retain the Ashes by any means so anything I say has to be filtered through that, however:
1) we essentially lost two full days of cricket. Even in Manchester that is very, very unusual
2) this match was an absolute pasting, and the Aussies knew it
3) this series is the first time in my adult life I’ve felt cricket has been having a national ‘moment’, and it was building to an almighty climax which we’ve been denied
4) rain rules are just dumb dumb dumb, with no common sense or respect for the fans. And I’m well aware that as the rainiest cricket playing nation we probably in the round stand to lose more than we gain by bringing in reserve days, continuing play past 18:30 to get in 90 overs etc, but we should so it anyway

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 5:32 pm

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 2:23 pm Well, that was a criminal way to end a Test series. Time for cricket to bring back the reserve day.

{EDIT} Before I saw the beeb headlining the same!

I don't think it was. England knew that the likelihood of an interrupted weekend due to weather was on the cards - yet they still went long in their 1st innings. If they had come in with a lead of around 150 (Harry Brooks' wicket)then they would have had an extra 20+ overs to play with.

I can't help but think that England, in their desire to be the swashbuckling team we know they can be, make really poor strategy calls. Early declaration in the first test and a late declaration in the fourth. Aussie was there for the taking - and it appeared that they played for the weather.

Smart cricket v not so smart cricket.

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:13 am I just love the delicious irony of England cricket supporters complaining about damp English weather ruining their chances of a win and losing the Ashes. The weather wasn't really to blame, it was losing the first two tests that was their downfall due to poor selection and poor wickets. Reserve days etc are just too difficult given the need for 3 seats days between tests minimum, TV schedules and demands, sponsors requirements, etc. It is what it is I am afraid and I am sure there wouldn't have been the same outcry if England won the game/series because of the weather!

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:13 am I just love the delicious irony of England cricket supporters complaining about damp English weather ruining their chances of a win and losing the Ashes. The weather wasn't really to blame, it was losing the first two tests that was their downfall due to poor selection and poor wickets. Reserve days etc are just too difficult given the need for 3 seats days between tests minimum, TV schedules and demands, sponsors requirements, etc. It is what it is I am afraid and I am sure there wouldn't have been the same outcry if England won the game/series because of the weather!

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:38 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:13 am I just love the delicious irony of England cricket supporters complaining about damp English weather ruining their chances of a win and losing the Ashes. The weather wasn't really to blame, it was losing the first two tests that was their downfall due to poor selection and poor wickets. Reserve days etc are just too difficult given the need for 3 seats days between tests minimum, TV schedules and demands, sponsors requirements, etc. It is what it is I am afraid and I am sure there wouldn't have been the same outcry if England won the game/series because of the weather!

This isn't an English thing. I don't support England (usually the reverse). This is a Test cricket thing. Test cricket is on its knees and to have its most historic contest concluded in this damp squib (literally) manner is simply shooting itself in the foot. This series should have gone to a decider and down in the annals of the game as a bona fide classic.

The 3 days rest is only a problem because of the demands to shoehorn in a load of pyjama nonsense (not even intl pyjama nonsense FFS): all of which will have been forgotten 5 minutes after each game has been concluded. Each Test from the 3rd onwards should have had a reserve day and the ODI schedule shrunk to accommodate it (or the club games made do without their intl players just as happens in EVERY other sport).

I see the Torygraph as a good article on this here:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/202 ... ia-retain/

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:08 am Scotland knocking it around against Austria this morning. 113/1 off 9, Munsey 82 from 37 balls.

Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:22 am

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 9:38 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:13 am I just love the delicious irony of England cricket supporters complaining about damp English weather ruining their chances of a win and losing the Ashes. The weather wasn't really to blame, it was losing the first two tests that was their downfall due to poor selection and poor wickets. Reserve days etc are just too difficult given the need for 3 seats days between tests minimum, TV schedules and demands, sponsors requirements, etc. It is what it is I am afraid and I am sure there wouldn't have been the same outcry if England won the game/series because of the weather!

This isn't an English thing. I don't support England (usually the reverse). This is a Test cricket thing. Test cricket is on its knees and to have its most historic contest concluded in this damp squib (literally) manner is simply shooting itself in the foot. This series should have gone to a decider and down in the annals of the game as a bona fide classic.

The 3 days rest is only a problem because of the demands to shoehorn in a load of pyjama nonsense (not even intl pyjama nonsense FFS): all of which will have been forgotten 5 minutes after each game has been concluded. Each Test from the 3rd onwards should have had a reserve day and the ODI schedule shrunk to accommodate it (or the club games made do without their intl players just as happens in EVERY other sport).

I see the Torygraph as a good article on this here:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/202 ... ia-retain/

So what happens if there are 2 days lost to rain - or 3 days? Do we just run the test until we get the full 5 days?

Unless clubs are going to invest millions - possibly tens of millions into covered stadiums for cricket then weather is always going to be an issue.

Mahoney wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 10:36 am It's a bit of an over-reaction because of disappointment, I think pretty much everyone would like this to have gone to a decider. We've actually had precious few draws due to rain in England in the last few seasons.

It's a shame that it comes across as sour grapes, because quite independent of this series I do think that Test cricket ought to be much more focussed on the spectators seeing as much cricket as possible. Specifically:

* Start at 10:30 to improve the chances of getting the overs in inside the day.
* Specify sunset as the hard close of play. Play continues until the 90 overs are bowled (including any lost on previous days) or sunset, whichever is first.
* If there are floodlights, no leaving the field for bad light before sunset, nor restricting who can bowl. More controversial, but I just don't think that it ever gets that dangerous when the lights are on.
* More generally a presumption in favour of playing rather than not playing. I want to see umpires reluctant to take players off and keen to get them back on if at all possible. No "inspection in 45 minutes, then we'll take lunch, then mooch about having another look, and 2 hours later ooh, look, it's started to rain again...". It often feels like umpires hate Test cricket and are keen for as little play to happen as possible.

In Manchester in late July, the sun rises around 5.10am and sets at 9.20pm. At this very ground on July 28, 1971, a one-day match between Lancashire and Gloucestershire ended at almost 9pm, without floodlights. When David Lloyd, the home side’s opening batsman, raised the issue of fading light with the officials, umpire Arthur Jepson pointed skywards and asked: “What’s that up there?” “The moon,” a befuddled Lloyd replied. “Well, how far do you want to see then?” Jepson huffed.

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:13 am I just love the delicious irony of England cricket supporters complaining about damp English weather ruining their chances of a win and losing the Ashes. The weather wasn't really to blame, it was losing the first two tests that was their downfall due to poor selection and poor wickets. Reserve days etc are just too difficult given the need for 3 seats days between tests minimum, TV schedules and demands, sponsors requirements, etc. It is what it is I am afraid and I am sure there wouldn't have been the same outcry if England won the game/series because of the weather!

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 11:45 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:13 am I just love the delicious irony of England cricket supporters complaining about damp English weather ruining their chances of a win and losing the Ashes. The weather wasn't really to blame, it was losing the first two tests that was their downfall due to poor selection and poor wickets. Reserve days etc are just too difficult given the need for 3 seats days between tests minimum, TV schedules and demands, sponsors requirements, etc. It is what it is I am afraid and I am sure there wouldn't have been the same outcry if England won the game/series because of the weather!

You went blissfully quiet when England won a game and were giving the Aussies a pasting in this one after your anti-English ranting at 0-2. Just because Deepsouth has made an arse of himself, doesn't mean you have to as well.

Also we haven't lost the Ashes, and Australia haven't won them. We can't regain them, but they weren't ours to lose in the first place. Australia have a chance to win them outright but if they lose the final Test then they retain them by default on a draw, which isn't quite the same thing.

I would also love to know what irony has to do with any of this.

dpedin wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 9:03 am

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 11:45 am

dpedin wrote: ↑Tue Jul 25, 2023 7:13 am I just love the delicious irony of England cricket supporters complaining about damp English weather ruining their chances of a win and losing the Ashes. The weather wasn't really to blame, it was losing the first two tests that was their downfall due to poor selection and poor wickets. Reserve days etc are just too difficult given the need for 3 seats days between tests minimum, TV schedules and demands, sponsors requirements, etc. It is what it is I am afraid and I am sure there wouldn't have been the same outcry if England won the game/series because of the weather!

You went blissfully quiet when England won a game and were giving the Aussies a pasting in this one after your anti-English ranting at 0-2. Just because Deepsouth has made an arse of himself, doesn't mean you have to as well.

Also we haven't lost the Ashes, and Australia haven't won them. We can't regain them, but they weren't ours to lose in the first place. Australia have a chance to win them outright but if they lose the final Test then they retain them by default on a draw, which isn't quite the same thing.

I would also love to know what irony has to do with any of this.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ...

Mahoney wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:10 am I think the idea of a reserve day for all tests is a pipe dream. Not remotely financially viable. Tests are under pressure to drop to 4 days already.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:11 am

Mahoney wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:10 am I think the idea of a reserve day for all tests is a pipe dream. Not remotely financially viable. Tests are under pressure to drop to 4 days already.

Yup. And full day washouts are rare enough that it's not worth it.

Over rates and playing times are far more useful to discuss.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:15 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:11 am

Mahoney wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 11:10 am I think the idea of a reserve day for all tests is a pipe dream. Not remotely financially viable. Tests are under pressure to drop to 4 days already.

Yup. And full day washouts are rare enough that it's not worth it.

Over rates and playing times are far more useful to discuss.

I assume you mean cumulatively full day washouts?

Whilst I'm not buying the "not financially viable" argument, I agree that playing times should be addressed first and see where we go from there.

I'm not convinced by the over rate one though. All we'll see is sides bowling "wides" 6 balls an over which is pretty much where we got to this series (both teams guilty when it suited them).

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:23 pm
I mean the loss of a full day, as in something that couldn't have been at least partially mitigated by earlier starts/later finishes if necessary.

Absolutely nothing wrong with teams bowling to a plan. Bowling much wider to Stokes was the correct approach; it made it very hard for him to hit boundaries, and he wasn't physically up to the task of constantly running twos. I don't see the problem, and to be honest I don't really understand the relation to lost play. If bowling wide all the time was an effective strategy at all times then it'd be more common - as it is, it takes two forms of dismissal out of the equation and flirts with danger constantly.

Torquemada 1420 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:05 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:23 pm
I mean the loss of a full day, as in something that couldn't have been at least partially mitigated by earlier starts/later finishes if necessary.

Absolutely nothing wrong with teams bowling to a plan. Bowling much wider to Stokes was the correct approach; it made it very hard for him to hit boundaries, and he wasn't physically up to the task of constantly running twos. I don't see the problem, and to be honest I don't really understand the relation to lost play. If bowling wide all the time was an effective strategy at all times then it'd be more common - as it is, it takes two forms of dismissal out of the equation and flirts with danger constantly.

Ultimately, this is all about
- getting to a Test result
- where both sides are trying to win

Of course, cricket has always been anomalous amongst sports in a draw often being the actual objective but we should not be rewarding teams achieving this by time wasting i.e. deliberately batting for 5 days is not the same thing as spending 5 days preventing the batsmen being able to reasonably apply bat to ball.

The latter was a common tactic of Eng sides of the 70s and 80s (Chris Old etc) where it was "more common". Eng weren't trying to take wickets in the truest sense: they were trying not to lose and if the batsmen got out in frustration, that was a bonus (taking 2 forms of dismissal out was not relevant). BTW, this is one of the reasons ODI has killed Test cricket: the laymen had no interest in watching this negative sh*t.

One reason Glenn McGrath would be in my all time XI is no other bowler had such a high % of balls the batsman had to play at.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:36 pm

Very funny dismissal... Should've called him back though this isn't the spirit of cricket/why the rule was designed....

Mahoney wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 3:21 pm Yes, I'd be in the "your fault you dopey twat" group on that.

Speaking as someone who has been stumped after a not out LBW call batting out of his crease who held the pose for a little too long. Like about 10 seconds too long before it occurred to the keeper that he could take the bails off.

I like neeps wrote: ↑Wed Jul 26, 2023 2:36 pm

Very funny dismissal... Should've called him back though this isn't the spirit of cricket/why the rule was designed....