NPR

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:37 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:33 pm

Big D wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:28 pm

Agreed, although I worry (for you guys) that the apparently rigid gameplan puts blinkers on. Earlier in the second half there was a massive overlap and then a forward hit it up.and farrell chipped through. Although their winger made an arse of it, the overlap was there before.

Yes, I completely agree. It's a big reason why we lost. We were so committed to the territory game plan we abandoned any chance of using the ball any other way.

When Ford and Lawrence were on right at the end chasing the game, we had a brief glimpse into a world where England dare to use the ball, and it looked good.

Yup, there were definite glimpses that a decent England team are coming

Agreed. Plenty good players at home to bring in.

Oh don't worry, we won't use them.

South Africa and attractive semi finals does not seem to go together Just to many mistakes by the boks pack, Bongi had a mare at lineout. I am just glad that we managed to play a decent 10 minutes and pull it out of the fire. Pollard seem to have been the general out there, telling people what to do and how they should play. Glad he was on the field for that last kick and hail the Bomb Squad.

Easy to say now with the benefit of hindsight, but I was actually thinking during the second half that we may as well have eg. put Chessum on for a falling apart Curry and have four second rows (if you still count Lawes as a potential one) out there. Biggest bodies possible behind the props to try and shore up the scrum, and then also change the kicking tactics to find the touchlines and have many options to put the pressure on Bongi's throwing.

Anything had to be better than that useless fat fuck Billy.

Fair fücks England. Went out on your shields.

Ox Nche... won us that game with his scumaging. But shout out to Deon Fourie as well. The energy and speed that he brought was a big difference. What a performance! 37 years of age!

RG Snyman is such a skillfully Viking. Sadly he cant lid a braaifire.Kolbey is so quick, he can catch a miss call.

My MOTM was the fullback Steward. ?

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:20 pm

PornDog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:19 pm

C69 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:01 pm England were excellent.

England were awful, its just that SA were worse, amazingly enough.

With all due respect, while our approach was incredibly negative, you're barking if you can't acknowledge that it was at least executed extremely well for a long time, and that the England pack gave the mighty SA pack a bit of a hiding for 50-odd minutes

I fully accept all of that; and yet stand by my statement!

You had some great aggressive defence that really upset SA, but outside of that, even when playing your best in a long time, you're an awful team to watch. I'd imagine that's true even for most English fans.

I'd really hope Borthwick does a full reset now (though have my doubts), because you have the players to be so much better than that.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:24 pm I also hate you for making me defend England

My sincere apologies.

We had a massive crowd at Monte Casino today, they had to open conference halls with projectors to give everyone a place to watch, the outdoor area with big screen was packed to the max, 2 hours before the game started. I am quite surprised how many Indian people were there to watch kitted out in their Bok jerseys.

Fair play to England for raising their game and making it so close. I really didn’t see that coming.

I can’t get over how inexplicably bad SA were, though. Sure, you can argue that England made them look bad, and that’s a valid argument, but they also made a bunch of ridiculous unforced errors that were entirely absent when they played Scotland and France. I just don’t understand. Scotland can easily play brilliantly one week and be shite the next, but the really top sides are supposed to be beyond that sort of thing.

Congratulations to SA.

Looking forward to the final.

Almost certainly another AB win, IMO. I didn’t think so until tonight.

But it’ll be a good ‘un whatever the result.

PornDog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:06 pm

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:20 pm

PornDog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:19 pm

England were awful, its just that SA were worse, amazingly enough.

With all due respect, while our approach was incredibly negative, you're barking if you can't acknowledge that it was at least executed extremely well for a long time, and that the England pack gave the mighty SA pack a bit of a hiding for 50-odd minutes

I fully accept all of that; and yet stand by my statement!

You had some great aggressive defence that really upset SA, but outside of that, even when playing your best in a long time, you're an awful team to watch. I'd imagine that's true even for most English fans.

I'd really hope Borthwick does a full reset now (though have my doubts), because you have the players to be so much better than that.

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:24 pm I also hate you for making me defend England

My sincere apologies.

Awful to watch isn't the same thing as awful, tbf

OomStruisbaai wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:05 pm My MOTM was the fullback Steward. ?

this, he was outstanding

_Os_ wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 12:17 am

Gumboot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 11:44 pm Is fitness even an issue when you bring on the Bomb Squad after 50 minutes?

It's all just very odd. Looking at the tools England have, the obvious tactic would be to kick deep for territory (like France), try and use the lineout and the maul (France scored twice off the lineout). If anything slow the game down and make a point of trying to win the set piece. Move the ball wide when there's open space (like Ireland did in the pool game). I'll give Sir Clive some credit, he identified drop goals and scoring whenever there's a chance (both the Boks and NZ in their quarters converted all their chances, whilst Ireland and France had more, they converted less into points). A 30+ phase buildup isn't required, just convert the points in <3 phases as fast as possible (NZ and the Boks both did this), drop goal is a good way to do it. Borthwick hasn't been coach for long, realistically something quite limited that uses all England's strong points is the way to go, if that looks like the way the game is developing then I would be worried. If England aren't winning on territory and the game is quite fast paced then I'm happier, Reinach/Libbok/Kolbe/Arendse/Willemse are all in the backline, the Boks don't want a slow grind.

Thought England played well (obviously), there's a segment of England supporters that seem to have gone full on English pessimist about their team, and will just say they're shit no matter what. But they took the tools they had and implemented the game plan most likely to get them the result, as they have all world cup, they did not do the Sir Clive high tempo game plan.

One thing I was pleased about, and I mentioned in this quoted post, is England never went to the corner early on to test the Bok defencive lineout and maul defence (that I recall?). Just took the three points instead. Probably should've got more points in the first half. I was worried by about 20 minutes, game clearly wasn't going in a good direction for the Boks.

I guess the measure of Borthwick will be how much he can add, could become a really dangerous side. England are getting Felix Jones from the Boks, he's probably the third man in the Bok coaching team after RasNaber.

Springbok v All Black final. My dream final, I've wanted to see this again for so long.

Yr Alban wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:12 pm Fair play to England for raising their game and making it so close. I really didn’t see that coming.

I can’t get over how inexplicably bad SA were, though. Sure, you can argue that England made them look bad, and that’s a valid argument, but they also made a bunch of ridiculous unforced errors that were entirely absent when they played Scotland and France. I just don’t understand. Scotland can easily play brilliantly one week and be shite the next, but the really top sides are supposed to be beyond that sort of thing.

What makes SA such a great tournament team is that they are really good players for coaches to work with. They like a simple game plan and are always fully committed, they can produce players who are capable of excellent off the cuff rugby but their natural home is that if a traditional game plan honed to a point by excellent tactical coaches. However the downside there is that teams like that (England suffer from this to a point) are incapable of switching tactics on the hoof, because they're in thrall to the coaches. So when they're all in on Plan A, and that plan is being beaten handily, it's all on the coaches to change it - the players will continue doing the thing that isn't working until they are forcibly prevented from doing so.

Happens very rarely given how strong their strengths are, though.

As someone who wanted England to lose by 100...my terrible thoughts...

* Better team did not win on the day, hard luck England
* Thought BOK was terrible for both teams...thought SA really hard done by in the 1st half, and then England in the 2nd helf
* Tip of the hat to Borthwick...put together a great game plan and had everyone bought in...the physicality was tremendous..but the kicking game plan was soooooo good
* Jamie George and Joe Marler....you two legends
* OX - yes, everything everyone has said...so impressive
* Snyman just love that guy...always wonder where he would be in the SA list if not for the injuries
* Koch - he knew exactly what Jamie was up to and made a huge difference
* Courtney Lawes - wow....seems like he was 10 years younger on the pitch..
* Pollard - ice in those veins
* Bokke never misses on their chances

Was it a great game plan? It worked for a while, but it prevented us turning forward dominance and territorial advantage into try scoring opportunities. And we weren't able to change it when SA finally managed to compete better and when the scrum went to shit.

I think even though SA seemed dead set on not attacking us in midfield they did at least give de Allende a few runs, allowed their wingers a couple of runs with ball in hand / kicked flat for them, and their try came from them chancing their arm at the lineout.

We played the territory game to destruction. Play for penalties and lose. It's a stone age approach that you almost never see to this extent in international rugby because it requires so many things to go right and has a tiny margin for error.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:42 pm Was it a great game plan? It worked for a while, but it prevented us turning forward dominance and territorial advantage into try scoring opportunities. And we weren't able to change it when SA finally managed to compete better and when the scrum went to shit.

I think even though SA seemed dead set on not attacking us in midfield they did at least give de Allende a few runs, allowed their wingers a couple of runs with ball in hand / kicked flat for them, and their try came from them chancing their arm at the lineout.

We played the territory game to destruction. Play for penalties and lose. It's a stone age approach that you almost never see to this extent in international rugby because it requires so many things to go right and has a tiny margin for error.

Yes and no. I would've been more worried if England took on more risks early within their game plan, impossible to say what would've happened if they went to corner keeping the pressure on in the first half. I would've been less worried if England had decided to take risks outside their strategy and moved the ball through the hands a lot/up the tempo/multi phases attack (the Sir Clive way), because that would've been a mountain of errors and given the Boks possession.

I think it's valid to say this is the best strategy Borthwick could put together in the time he had, if a side wants to do more it takes longer putting it together. Similar to how the Boks got criticism during the Lions series from the NH media (they got a lot of criticism, but I'm just focusing on the stuff about how the Boks play). After the 2019 RWC, the Boks didn't play for a year and half because of Covid, it was never going to be some all court game they brought to the Lions series. No Covid and the Boks would've been more like they are now for the Lions series, as there would've been more development time/Bok camps/matches.

The measure will be if Borthwick can add more to his side, without the immediate pressure of the RWC. Almost took the Boks out on a wet night in Paris, easy to see how England could become better (it's hard to find words to describe this, saying "really dangerous" like I did in the previous post, sounds odd because they were 2 points from a RWC final) if they developed more in attack. The measure for an outsider without much knowledge of the team (like myself) will probably be "has Smith become a first choice starting player somewhere in the backline?".

I don't think "keeping ball in hand when you've won possession in the opposition half and have numerical superiority out wide" is a risk, to be honest. I'm not saying we should've thrown it about with gay abandon, I'm saying that the territory game needs to be married to an attacking game that can be used when the opportunity presents itself. For Borthwick, that opportunity is simply another chance to kick it and put pressure on that way.

This was one of the most nakedly negative and deliberately conservative game plans of the Borthwick era. He's had this England side for most of the year - I'm not buying the time frame as an excuse. This was what, his 13th? 14? game in charge? And some of his extremely conservative squad selections came back to bite us, too - none bigger (literally) than the decision to select Billy, then to make him the only full time 8 in the squad, and then to stick with him through shocker after shocker.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:16 pm I don't think "keeping ball in hand when you've won possession in the opposition half and have numerical superiority out wide" is a risk, to be honest. I'm not saying we should've thrown it about with gay abandon, I'm saying that the territory game needs to be married to an attacking game that can be used when the opportunity presents itself.

He probably looked at how Scotland and Ireland went and thought "they didn't get much doing that, so we won't even try", what's odd is that he didn't watch France and think "we need to use our lineout a lot, that's where two of the French tries came from". The lineout was a mess, but on first viewing that was because of everything that was happening on the Bok throw.

As for specific selections and players, I don't know enough to comment. For the Boks 12 matches would be one season, not unusual for a new coach to drop some players after that first season who got chances but weren't offering much.

JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:16 pm I don't think "keeping ball in hand when you've won possession in the opposition half and have numerical superiority out wide" is a risk, to be honest. I'm not saying we should've thrown it about with gay abandon, I'm saying that the territory game needs to be married to an attacking game that can be used when the opportunity presents itself. For Borthwick, that opportunity is simply another chance to kick it and put pressure on that way.

This was one of the most nakedly negative and deliberately conservative game plans of the Borthwick era. He's had this England side for most of the year - I'm not buying the time frame as an excuse. This was what, his 13th? 14? game in charge? And some of his extremely conservative squad selections came back to bite us, too - none bigger (literally) than the decision to select Billy, then to make him the only full time 8 in the squad, and then to stick with him through shocker after shocker.

He actively regressed the team this tournament with the selection at 10. Not like Ford can't play to his tactical preference. Ford is arguably the best tactical kicking 10 in the country but with the ability to be able to play when it is required (Borthwick should know this as Ford was his 10 when he won the premiership with Tigers). The selection of Farrell as captain was mistake that pretty much every English fan on this board called as it limited him to playing Farrell and I think it detracts from Farrells game. The continued selection of Tuilagi, youngs, the wingers and Vunipola were obviously wrong calls and while Farrell gets a lot of shit from many including myself (some this is push back against the bullshit put out by the English rugby media) those were worse calls than selecting Farrell. Borthwick has introduced quite a few players as well, much will come down to how ruthless he is culling the like of Tuilagi, Vunipola, May, Daly, Youngs, Care, Cole and undoubtedly others at the beginning of the next cycle.

Every match has a WTF? moment

We were very lucky.

When the English coaches were smiling and cheerful after being 9 points up I thought it was over. They looked really confident.

Enzedder wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 12:41 am Every match has a WTF? moment

Pizza launcher

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:24 pm

PornDog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:19 pm

C69 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:01 pm England were excellent.

England were awful, its just that SA were worse, amazingly enough.

That’s a shit take. It was a limited game plan, and they didn’t execute it as well as they could, but they were great.

And it was a semi final so you probably don’t understand.

I also hate you for making me defend England

Look it was hard for me to make such a post.
But it was true.

England were excellent. Hungry pack, made their tackles, chased better than SA and took their kicks at goal with aplomb. They didn’t score a try because that’s not in their skill set.

Haven't seen the game as we were out, but kept an eye on the score. Have to admit with 10 minutes to go I desperately wanted England to win just to see the explosion of outrage on SM.

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:19 pm Very good turnover ruined by Manu

He actually did nothing.

Blackmac wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:18 am

tc27 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 7:19 pm Very good turnover ruined by Manu

He actually did nothing.

Yeah, was weird. Assume they showed the wrong replay, as he didn't do anything on the one they showed.

C69 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 6:42 am

Slick wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:24 pm

PornDog wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:19 pm

England were awful, its just that SA were worse, amazingly enough.

That’s a shit take. It was a limited game plan, and they didn’t execute it as well as they could, but they were great.

And it was a semi final so you probably don’t understand.

I also hate you for making me defend England

Look it was hard for me to make such a post.
But it was true.

England played the conditions and the occasion very well.

Well that was a tough watch to be honest! England decided to outplay the Saffies at their own game and nearly did it. I dont think either 10 passed a ball out in the whole of the first half, kick and chase, kick and chase all game by both teams. England tbf had a game plan they could execute and did it well for about 60mins, strong pack, good chase, good in the air and good defence. However they never ever looked like scoring a try, in fact they never ever wanted to score a try and just kicked even when in the SA 22.

SA looked tired before they kicked off, trials and tribulations of the previous week was still in their legs and it showed. Eztebeth look shagged and was subbed early and he has a huge engine normally. However their subs and in particular OX and Koch were pivotal and destroyed Sinkler and Genge. Wagga and Fourie also brought more aggression to the breakdown as England tired. At least the team that scored the try won the game!

I worry for SA for next week, the ABs looked fit and fresh against the Argies and will look to play a fast game against a tires SA team. After narrow victories against France and England might have been too m much for them?

Sards wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 5:42 am We were very lucky.

When the English coaches were smiling and cheerful after being 9 points up I thought it was over. They looked really confident.

Thought they were home and dry after the Farrell DG.

One team's battered is another team's battle hardened.

Borthwick completely narrrowed Englands focus to kick/kick chasing, maul defence and tackling...I would be surprised if an attacking move was practised all week.

SA had no idea what to do against a teams refusing to play against them and actually being better physically (scrums last 20 minutes aside).

Its what makes rugby so fascinating..the worlds no1 side and reigning champions one dodgy OKeefe decision away from being turned over by a coach thats lost at home to Scotland coming up with an almost perfect antidote to their strengths.

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:43 am https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... SApp_Other

That's a pretty big accusation and one that should be investigated quickly.

The amount of rugby people and "fan pages" raging that Genge got pinged for angling in supported by a picture of Koch at 45 is laughable considering the penalty was for Genge going to his knee before anyone moved off straight.

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:55 am The amount of rugby people and "fan pages" raging that Genge got pinged for angling in supported by a picture of Koch at 45 is laughable considering the penalty was for Genge going to his knee before anyone moved off straight.

The only picture I have seen is Genges knee briefly on the ground before the balls in.

If that was something OKeefe thought was a penalty why did he let the scrum go ahead? Or not indicate advantage?

Big D wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:53 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:43 am https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... SApp_Other

That's a pretty big accusation and one that should be investigated quickly.

If true, Bongi forgot he is in France. In South Africa they make people washing feet for this. Maybe Bongi should do the same.