Official Lions selection, moaning and bitching thread

[Mahoney]

For someone who gets very very upset at the idea that Ben Youngs gets picked because of "leadership and experience", noting that his form is often bad (see also Mike Tindall), you're really very inconsistent on this.

On the contrary he's a model of consistency. Youngs and Tindall never played for Saracens.

[Kawazaki]

Imagine missing a joke by that much


He's on tour. He's one of the most experienced players there. He's undeniably good at the non match day stuff, raising standards in training, keeping people focused, etc. It's not a surprise he's a popular choice to be part of the leadership group.

It says little about whether he should be playing.

You think players judge leadership by what happens off the pitch? I mean, keep doubling down by all means and reveal your hubris. It makes me laugh.

What do you think the "leadership group" entails exactly? A huge part of it is off the field stuff. Especially on a Lions tour, where there's no way someone will play the majority of matches. The actual matches are only a part of it.

This isn't a criticism - you don't need to be so hilariously sensitive about Farrell. The players spend a hell of a lot more time together than just the matches, and the leadership group will have a big role to play.

Whether Farrell should play the tests is down to whether he plays well. For someone who gets very very upset at the idea that Ben Youngs gets picked because of "leadership and experience", noting that his form is often bad (see also Mike Tindall), you're really very inconsistent on this. Farrell's recent form for England has not been good at all so he is fortunate to be touring - but he's on tour now so it's no surprise that the things he seemingly does very well regardless of his form are recognised.

I don't think Ben Youngs offers anything as a player or as a leader. Same with Tindall. And neither of those players were singled out as great leaders by their peer group either. The comparison is a straw mess.

Form is important, I've never said otherwise and I've also said Farrell's form for England has been poor recently. You're saying nothing new or original.

[JM2K6]

You think players judge leadership by what happens off the pitch? I mean, keep doubling down by all means and reveal your hubris. It makes me laugh.

What do you think the "leadership group" entails exactly? A huge part of it is off the field stuff. Especially on a Lions tour, where there's no way someone will play the majority of matches. The actual matches are only a part of it.

This isn't a criticism - you don't need to be so hilariously sensitive about Farrell. The players spend a hell of a lot more time together than just the matches, and the leadership group will have a big role to play.

Whether Farrell should play the tests is down to whether he plays well. For someone who gets very very upset at the idea that Ben Youngs gets picked because of "leadership and experience", noting that his form is often bad (see also Mike Tindall), you're really very inconsistent on this. Farrell's recent form for England has not been good at all so he is fortunate to be touring - but he's on tour now so it's no surprise that the things he seemingly does very well regardless of his form are recognised.

I don't think Ben Youngs offers anything as a player or as a leader. Same with Tindall. And neither of those players were singled out as great leaders by their peer group either. The comparison is a straw mess.

Youngs is part of England's leadership group. Tindall was part of England's leadership group. That's just how these things roll.

(for the record, I certainly think Farrell seems to be better than both at the stuff we don't see).

Form is important, I've never said otherwise and I've also said Farrell's form for England has been poor recently. You're saying nothing new or original.

You seem to be straddling the dual opinions that Farrell shouldn't have toured / shouldn't be in the Test squad alongside trying to boost him for a Test role based on his leadership.

You:

Gatland should steer clear of the vast majority of this Eddie Jones England squad, they've been in an utterly useless coaching environment for months. In short, England are not close to the required standard.

The only England players that I think merit consideration for the Lions squad are (in no particular order) <proceeds to list players without Farrell>

and:

Anyone tried picking a test side from that squad? It's not easy.?

<proceeds to list 23 without Farrell>

but also (in response to me saying Farrell was picked to tour on faith)

If you place zero importance on concepts such as experience, leadership and presence then I can see how it's easy to dismiss Farrell based on some of his recent England form.

Very, uh, flexible opinion on ole Faz there. Seems to be largely driven by whether someone else is criticising him or not.

[Kawazaki]

All you've done is prove that I'm actually not the over-zealous Farrell fan that you like to think I am.

Cheers for that.

[JM2K6]

All you've done is prove that I'm actually not the over-zealous Farrell fan that you like to think I am.

Cheers for that.

It shows you're incredibly inconsistent - as soon as anyone else is critical of him, even if they're saying things in line with things you've said before - you immediately start defending him and contradicting yourself.

Tis amusing, I'll admit.

[Begbie]

Furlong in to the starting line up. Zander Fagerson is out with back spasms.

[Margin__Walker]

Scots are dropping like flies

[JM2K6]

Furlong in to the starting line up. Zander Fagerson is out with back spasms.

Has Fagerson had those before? Seems to be one of those things that some players suffer from regularly.

[Kawazaki]

All you've done is prove that I'm actually not the over-zealous Farrell fan that you like to think I am.

Cheers for that.

It shows you're incredibly inconsistent - as soon as anyone else is critical of him, even if they're saying things in line with things you've said before - you immediately start defending him and contradicting yourself.

Tis amusing, I'll admit.

I'm critical of people who I think criticise unfairly, like I would any other player. Farrell gets disproportionately more criticism than almost any other player. He's a winner. That's what you really dislike.

[JM2K6]

All you've done is prove that I'm actually not the over-zealous Farrell fan that you like to think I am.

Cheers for that.

It shows you're incredibly inconsistent - as soon as anyone else is critical of him, even if they're saying things in line with things you've said before - you immediately start defending him and contradicting yourself.

Tis amusing, I'll admit.

I'm critical of people who I think criticise unfairly, like I would any other player. Farrell gets disproportionately more criticism than almost any other player. He's a winner. That's what you really dislike.

I dislike how often he doesn't play like a winner, you eejit. Itoje's a winner - I don't dislike him.

Utterly transparent

[Kawazaki]

It shows you're incredibly inconsistent - as soon as anyone else is critical of him, even if they're saying things in line with things you've said before - you immediately start defending him and contradicting yourself.

Tis amusing, I'll admit.

I'm critical of people who I think criticise unfairly, like I would any other player. Farrell gets disproportionately more criticism than almost any other player. He's a winner. That's what you really dislike.

I dislike how often he doesn't play like a winner, you eejit. Itoje's a winner - I don't dislike him.

Utterly transparent

Name me an English flyhalf (and captain) who has win more than Farrell.

[JM2K6]

I'm critical of people who I think criticise unfairly, like I would any other player. Farrell gets disproportionately more criticism than almost any other player. He's a winner. That's what you really dislike.

I dislike how often he doesn't play like a winner, you eejit. Itoje's a winner - I don't dislike him.

Utterly transparent

Name me an English flyhalf (and captain) who has win more than Farrell.

Eh? Farrell's flyhalf record for England is terrible compared to Ford's. I looked this up a few months ago:

Farrell starting at ten (including the Brisbane game where he moved to 12 after 29 minutes and Ford played 10 the entire time) in international rugby: 60% win rate
Ford starting at ten (not including the above game): 80%

Last five years:

Farrell: 64% (same caveat)
Ford: 81.5% (ditto)

One of them is, when looking at results, a mediocre international 10. The other is superb.

Freddie Burns, Andy Goode, Charlie Hodgson are all marginally worse than Farrell's career win percentage at 10 despite playing for significantly worse teams.

Finally, Ford's win stats for coming off the bench? 57%. Don't do it.

I have no idea what you're trying to say any more - me saying that my criticisim of Farrell isn't because I dislike "winners" isn't refuted by Farrell being fairly successful. He's not quite as good as the hype suggests, and as an England fan he frustrates me pretty often and I'm sure you're well aware that this is a common viewpoint. It's entirely okay that you want to defend your boy to the death - just don't pretend that it's not what you're doing and that anyone criticising him is doing so because he's too good or whatever (lol)

[ASMO]

I'm critical of people who I think criticise unfairly, like I would any other player. Farrell gets disproportionately more criticism than almost any other player. He's a winner. That's what you really dislike.

I dislike how often he doesn't play like a winner, you eejit. Itoje's a winner - I don't dislike him.

Utterly transparent

Name me an English flyhalf (and captain) who has win more than Farrell.

Wilkinson? his win ratio is higher, his points tally is higher, he has won a RWC and still holds several records as a player.

[Kawazaki]

It might be a common viewpoint of verbose gobshites on the internet but coaches and fellow players clearly think otherwise. It's classic bullshit asymmetry principle. Brandolinis Law.

[Kawazaki]

I dislike how often he doesn't play like a winner, you eejit. Itoje's a winner - I don't dislike him.

Utterly transparent

Name me an English flyhalf (and captain) who has win more than Farrell.

Wilkinson? his win ratio is higher, his points tally is higher, he has won a RWC and still holds several records as a player.

Yeah, I'd agree Wilkinson is better.

[JM2K6]

It might be a common viewpoint of verbose gobshites on the internet but coaches and fellow players clearly think otherwise. It's classic bullshit asymmetry principle. Brandolinis Law.

Think otherwise to what? He's a frustrating player - and there's a reason why Eddie keeps going back to Ford at 10 if we're talking about flyhalf specifically. In some ways he's lucky that he's a "2nd 5/8th" type playing in a country that hasn't really developed many of those. In other ways he's done really well to make the most of his ability and the non-athletic/non-skill stuff he brings are often (but not always when on the pitch) a huge benefit to teams he plays for.

Apologies if I use too many words for you. Happy to simplify things for you in future.

Absolutely mad that all this kicked off because you don't accept that a leadership group on a Lions tour isn't the same thing as "the best players". Oh well!

[Biffer]

Name me an English flyhalf (and captain) who has win more than Farrell.

Wilkinson? his win ratio is higher, his points tally is higher, he has won a RWC and still holds several records as a player.

Yeah, I'd agree Wilkinson is better.

No answer on Ford consistently winning more games, we note.

[Kawazaki]

Wilkinson? his win ratio is higher, his points tally is higher, he has won a RWC and still holds several records as a player.

Yeah, I'd agree Wilkinson is better.

No answer on Ford consistently winning more games, we note.

I'm including little pots like the Premierships and European Cups in his body of work to be honest.

[Kawazaki]

It might be a common viewpoint of verbose gobshites on the internet but coaches and fellow players clearly think otherwise. It's classic bullshit asymmetry principle. Brandolinis Law.

Think otherwise to what? He's a frustrating player - and there's a reason why Eddie keeps going back to Ford at 10 if we're talking about flyhalf specifically. In some ways he's lucky that he's a "2nd 5/8th" type playing in a country that hasn't really developed many of those. In other ways he's done really well to make the most of his ability and the non-athletic/non-skill stuff he brings are often (but not always when on the pitch) a huge benefit to teams he plays for.

Apologies if I use too many words for you. Happy to simplify things for you in future.

Absolutely mad that all this kicked off because you don't accept that a leadership group on a Lions tour isn't the same thing as "the best players". Oh well!

We'll see who else is in the leadership group before we dismiss quality as a prerequisite for entry first shall we.

If Bundee Aki is in there then you win.


p.s don't try sarcasm, you're really not equipped for it.

[JM2K6]

It might be a common viewpoint of verbose gobshites on the internet but coaches and fellow players clearly think otherwise. It's classic bullshit asymmetry principle. Brandolinis Law.

Think otherwise to what? He's a frustrating player - and there's a reason why Eddie keeps going back to Ford at 10 if we're talking about flyhalf specifically. In some ways he's lucky that he's a "2nd 5/8th" type playing in a country that hasn't really developed many of those. In other ways he's done really well to make the most of his ability and the non-athletic/non-skill stuff he brings are often (but not always when on the pitch) a huge benefit to teams he plays for.

Apologies if I use too many words for you. Happy to simplify things for you in future.

Absolutely mad that all this kicked off because you don't accept that a leadership group on a Lions tour isn't the same thing as "the best players". Oh well!

We'll see who else is in the leadership group before we dismiss quality as a prerequisite for entry first shall we.

If Bundee Aki is in there then you win.


p.s don't try sarcasm, you're really not equipped for it.

Bundee Aki has no experience as a captain at any level, has only 31 caps for Ireland, and has never been on a Lions tour. I'd be hugely surprised if he was part of the leadership group. You do understand that I've said Farrell is vastly experienced and is praised for all the work he does driving standards, yeah? Or did you forget that already?

Every single player on the Lions tour is considered to be of the quality required to start a Lions test if needed.

[sockwithaticket]

Exeter went through a spell of Jack Yeandle as club captain despite LC-D being the starting hooker. Eddie used to talk up all the off field stuff Hartley contributed when answering all the questions about why he was still England captain.

Just two examples, but I think they illustrate that leadership isn't just about being the best player or on-field contribution.

[Kawazaki]

Think otherwise to what? He's a frustrating player - and there's a reason why Eddie keeps going back to Ford at 10 if we're talking about flyhalf specifically. In some ways he's lucky that he's a "2nd 5/8th" type playing in a country that hasn't really developed many of those. In other ways he's done really well to make the most of his ability and the non-athletic/non-skill stuff he brings are often (but not always when on the pitch) a huge benefit to teams he plays for.

Apologies if I use too many words for you. Happy to simplify things for you in future.

Absolutely mad that all this kicked off because you don't accept that a leadership group on a Lions tour isn't the same thing as "the best players". Oh well!

We'll see who else is in the leadership group before we dismiss quality as a prerequisite for entry first shall we.

If Bundee Aki is in there then you win.


p.s don't try sarcasm, you're really not equipped for it.

Bundee Aki has no experience as a captain at any level, has only 31 caps for Ireland, and has never been on a Lions tour. I'd be hugely surprised if he was part of the leadership group. You do understand that I've said Farrell is vastly experienced and is praised for all the work he does driving standards, yeah? Or did you forget that already?

Every single player on the Lions tour is considered to be of the quality required to start a Lions test if needed.

The reference to Bundee Aki was a humorous aside. He's shit. We all think it, let's at least embrace consensus when it's there.

[JM2K6]

We'll see who else is in the leadership group before we dismiss quality as a prerequisite for entry first shall we.

If Bundee Aki is in there then you win.


p.s don't try sarcasm, you're really not equipped for it.

Bundee Aki has no experience as a captain at any level, has only 31 caps for Ireland, and has never been on a Lions tour. I'd be hugely surprised if he was part of the leadership group. You do understand that I've said Farrell is vastly experienced and is praised for all the work he does driving standards, yeah? Or did you forget that already?

Every single player on the Lions tour is considered to be of the quality required to start a Lions test if needed.

The reference to Bundee Aki was a humorous aside. He's shit. We all think it, let's at least embrace consensus when it's there.

You and I think he's shit - or at least not good enough for the Lions. I bet the players and coaches disagree though, which is kinda what we're talking about.

The leadership group will be the wise old heads with a load of experience and maybe one or two players who are superbly committed all the time. So you'd probably expect AWJ, Farrell, Biggar, Itoje - the guys who are well known to be that type - and then the ones we don't hear about but could easily be like that, which are harder to predict. It's got nowt to do with their abilities as players on this tour, as they're all considered the best available players. I don't know how many gnarled old stagers are on tour but unlikely to play a Test, but they'd be a good pick as someone to be in that group while not being likely to play the big games. Just how it works.

[ASMO]

Bundee Aki has no experience as a captain at any level, has only 31 caps for Ireland, and has never been on a Lions tour. I'd be hugely surprised if he was part of the leadership group. You do understand that I've said Farrell is vastly experienced and is praised for all the work he does driving standards, yeah? Or did you forget that already?

Every single player on the Lions tour is considered to be of the quality required to start a Lions test if needed.

The reference to Bundee Aki was a humorous aside. He's shit. We all think it, let's at least embrace consensus when it's there.

You and I think he's shit - or at least not good enough for the Lions. I bet the players and coaches disagree though, which is kinda what we're talking about.

The leadership group will be the wise old heads with a load of experience and maybe one or two players who are superbly committed all the time. So you'd probably expect AWJ, Farrell, Biggar, Itoje - the guys who are well known to be that type - and then the ones we don't hear about but could easily be like that, which are harder to predict. It's got nowt to do with their abilities as players on this tour, as they're all considered the best available players. I don't know how many gnarled old stagers are on tour but unlikely to play a Test, but they'd be a good pick as someone to be in that group while not being likely to play the big games. Just how it works.

Aki is someone who was picked with a very specific role in mind though, as backup to Henshaw as he wants to play that big physical center, Aki never makes the test team in a million years otherwise.

[SaintK]

Phew!! I'm glad we got that sorted then.

[Uncle fester]

The reference to Bundee Aki was a humorous aside. He's shit. We all think it, let's at least embrace consensus when it's there.

You and I think he's shit - or at least not good enough for the Lions. I bet the players and coaches disagree though, which is kinda what we're talking about.

The leadership group will be the wise old heads with a load of experience and maybe one or two players who are superbly committed all the time. So you'd probably expect AWJ, Farrell, Biggar, Itoje - the guys who are well known to be that type - and then the ones we don't hear about but could easily be like that, which are harder to predict. It's got nowt to do with their abilities as players on this tour, as they're all considered the best available players. I don't know how many gnarled old stagers are on tour but unlikely to play a Test, but they'd be a good pick as someone to be in that group while not being likely to play the big games. Just how it works.

Aki is someone who was picked with a very specific role in mind though, as backup to Henshaw as he wants to play that big physical center, Aki never makes the test team in a million years otherwise.

Except that he's picked them both in the first game, with Henshaw at 13.
Henshaw gets picked at 12 for Ireland and Leinster because he's needed there but he's actually better at 13 but the other 2 centres in the squad are 13's.
3 x 13's and 1 x 12 seems a bit unbalanced but Farrell at 12 increases options there.

[SaintK]

Looks like Hogg will be dropped to the bench for the second week running at Exeter missing out on starting place in the Prem Final having already been dropped to thee bench for the semi.
He hasn't been anywhere near his top form in the run in. Jack Nowell who doesn't usually plasy full back replaced him last week and had a stormer!

Stuart Hogg has held talks with club boss Rob Baxter as he faces being left out of the Exeter team once again for the biggest game of the season.
The Chiefs look set to keep the outstanding Jack Nowell at full-back for the Premiership play-off final, meaning Hogg will be benched once more on the eve of joining up with the Lions.
Baxter admits Hogg, who has long been seen as the favourite for the Lions number 15 jersey, has been "angry and disappointed' but praised his reaction.
“He [Hogg] has been very good this week, very angry, very frustrated in all the right ways and that is what I expect," Baxter
“I don’t expect a competitor, a successful, professional sportsman and almost like a world-renowned player, I don’t expect him to be happy with not being in the team coming into big games.
"We had another very good discussion on Monday that was needed for Stuart to train well this week which he has done. He has been very good this week.

[JM2K6]

You and I think he's shit - or at least not good enough for the Lions. I bet the players and coaches disagree though, which is kinda what we're talking about.

The leadership group will be the wise old heads with a load of experience and maybe one or two players who are superbly committed all the time. So you'd probably expect AWJ, Farrell, Biggar, Itoje - the guys who are well known to be that type - and then the ones we don't hear about but could easily be like that, which are harder to predict. It's got nowt to do with their abilities as players on this tour, as they're all considered the best available players. I don't know how many gnarled old stagers are on tour but unlikely to play a Test, but they'd be a good pick as someone to be in that group while not being likely to play the big games. Just how it works.

Aki is someone who was picked with a very specific role in mind though, as backup to Henshaw as he wants to play that big physical center, Aki never makes the test team in a million years otherwise.

Except that he's picked them both in the first game, with Henshaw at 13.
Henshaw gets picked at 12 for Ireland and Leinster because he's needed there but he's actually better at 13 but the other 2 centres in the squad are 13's.
3 x 13's and 1 x 12 seems a bit unbalanced but Farrell at 12 increases options there.

Seems likely that Farrell will be considered primarily at 12 - it's where he plays best for England, it's where he plays the most for England, and his times at 10 for the Lions previously haven't been happy ones.

[colonel]

Yeah, I'd agree Wilkinson is better.

No answer on Ford consistently winning more games, we note.

I'm including little pots like the Premierships and European Cups in his body of work to be honest.

Dont forget the 2nd division title too.

[ASMO]

You and I think he's shit - or at least not good enough for the Lions. I bet the players and coaches disagree though, which is kinda what we're talking about.

The leadership group will be the wise old heads with a load of experience and maybe one or two players who are superbly committed all the time. So you'd probably expect AWJ, Farrell, Biggar, Itoje - the guys who are well known to be that type - and then the ones we don't hear about but could easily be like that, which are harder to predict. It's got nowt to do with their abilities as players on this tour, as they're all considered the best available players. I don't know how many gnarled old stagers are on tour but unlikely to play a Test, but they'd be a good pick as someone to be in that group while not being likely to play the big games. Just how it works.

Aki is someone who was picked with a very specific role in mind though, as backup to Henshaw as he wants to play that big physical center, Aki never makes the test team in a million years otherwise.

Except that he's picked them both in the first game, with Henshaw at 13.
Henshaw gets picked at 12 for Ireland and Leinster because he's needed there but he's actually better at 13 but the other 2 centres in the squad are 13's.
3 x 13's and 1 x 12 seems a bit unbalanced but Farrell at 12 increases options there.

The game against Japan can only be viewed as an exhibition game and nothing at all about the real makeup of the test sides can be gleaned from it.

[Hal Jordan]

Wasn't Rob Wainwright part of the 97 Lions leadership group ( judging by the documentary) despite being no one's first choice?

Also, what the fuck is his accent about?

[C T]

Looks like Hogg will be dropped to the bench for the second week running at Exeter missing out on starting place in the Prem Final having already been dropped to thee bench for the semi.
He hasn't been anywhere near his top form in the run in. Jack Nowell who doesn't usually plasy full back replaced him last week and had a stormer!

Stuart Hogg has held talks with club boss Rob Baxter as he faces being left out of the Exeter team once again for the biggest game of the season.
The Chiefs look set to keep the outstanding Jack Nowell at full-back for the Premiership play-off final, meaning Hogg will be benched once more on the eve of joining up with the Lions.
Baxter admits Hogg, who has long been seen as the favourite for the Lions number 15 jersey, has been "angry and disappointed' but praised his reaction.
“He [Hogg] has been very good this week, very angry, very frustrated in all the right ways and that is what I expect," Baxter
“I don’t expect a competitor, a successful, professional sportsman and almost like a world-renowned player, I don’t expect him to be happy with not being in the team coming into big games.
"We had another very good discussion on Monday that was needed for Stuart to train well this week which he has done. He has been very good this week.

I can't help but think that Hogg having never been a test lion is playing on his mind.

Not saying it's right, but given what happened last tour I can't help but think that after he was confirmed on the plane that he's holding off a little bit.

I don't watch loads of Exeter, if he's been pish for a while then this theory is of course nonsense.

[JM2K6]

I don't think he's been bad, might have been a training incident or something.

[Line6 HXFX]

Squidge did a illuminating video about what Gatland is going to try to do.

Apparently it is all about "out to in" defence (hence Bundi Aki) and variations of the 1 3 2 2 pod system, that the Japanese, Welsh, Scottish and Irish have perfected.
Should give this guy a few likes and subscribes, he really does earn it.

[Brazil]

I don't think he's been bad, might have been a training incident or something.

He's probably told them that "Freeman of the Land" isn't a legally binding concept, or maybe that vaccines work.

[Biffer]

I don't think he's been bad, might have been a training incident or something.

He's probably told them that "Freeman of the Land" isn't a legally binding concept, or maybe that vaccines work.

I was thinking that. Told them to stop being arseholes and get vaccinated and Baxter didn’t like him disagreeing with the six fingered fuckwit squad he’s got down there.

[JM2K6]

I don't think he's been bad, might have been a training incident or something.

He's probably told them that "Freeman of the Land" isn't a legally binding concept, or maybe that vaccines work.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Hogg has been Hogg, the normal okay play mixed with moments of brilliance and madness. I'd suspect when he's trying stuff and it's going wrong he's just trying to influence the game, and he doesn't consider that doing nothing would be better, he wants to be involved more than he wants to be clinical. Maybe it's more as in something else has happened, Exeter are quite happy to pick O'Flaherty and Cuthbert in the back three, and neither of them are defensive rocks

[Margin__Walker]

I don't think he's been bad, might have been a training incident or something.

He's probably told them that "Freeman of the Land" isn't a legally binding concept, or maybe that vaccines work.

I bet there are a few players in that Exeter squad forced to listen to Hepburn, Williams, Nowell etc in the changing room every day wittering on seriously questioning their life choices.

[JM2K6]

Plus Baxter has suddenly decided he wants to be a media superstar or something - a new outburst every day