A place where escape goats go to play
https://notplanetrugby.com/
Spiritually no, morally perhaps, legally yes.Insane_Homer wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 8:08 pm If I glance a stationary car parked on a double yellow line & blocking the road am I still at fault?
mat the expat wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:01 amNot at all - it's part of the industry-scare campaign to allow them to be euthanised instead of rehomed (I volunteer with a rescue group). Sadly, the ones who are a bit snarly as those abused by the trainers. Some can't be looked after by men at first.sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:27 am
Oh, are they known for that? The few greyhounds I've met have been among the laziest, most docile dogs.
It's why I stopped collecting them from trainers.....
Were there any roundabouts involved?inactionman wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 8:57 amSpiritually no, morally perhaps, legally yes.Insane_Homer wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 8:08 pm If I glance a stationary car parked on a double yellow line & blocking the road am I still at fault?
There's probaby a lot of truth in that. While there are definitely differences in temperaments between breeds, I'd be as worried that your typical Staffy for instance has been owned/abused by an ignorant prick.Tichtheid wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 9:35 ammat the expat wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:01 amNot at all - it's part of the industry-scare campaign to allow them to be euthanised instead of rehomed (I volunteer with a rescue group). Sadly, the ones who are a bit snarly as those abused by the trainers. Some can't be looked after by men at first.sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:27 am
Oh, are they known for that? The few greyhounds I've met have been among the laziest, most docile dogs.
It's why I stopped collecting them from trainers.....
A vet once said to me that when talking about dangerous dogs and dangerous breeds, people are looking at the wrong end of the lead.
Yes, it was at the exit of a roundabout. Utterly stupid place to fucking stop, caused a massive jam!Gumboot wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 9:36 amWere there any roundabouts involved?inactionman wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 8:57 amSpiritually no, morally perhaps, legally yes.Insane_Homer wrote: Sun Jun 18, 2023 8:08 pm If I glance a stationary car parked on a double yellow line & blocking the road am I still at fault?
Yep. Two of the near neighbours on my road have spaniels that I've seen since they were puppies. One of them chases and barks his head off at literally anyone he sees while his owners make more or less no effort to recall him, the other is impeccably well behaved. With the latter I saw his owners take him out to the grassy area in the middle of the estate pretty much every day when he was a puppy to conduct training drills. Never saw anything similar for the annoying, barky one.Tichtheid wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 9:35 ammat the expat wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:01 amNot at all - it's part of the industry-scare campaign to allow them to be euthanised instead of rehomed (I volunteer with a rescue group). Sadly, the ones who are a bit snarly as those abused by the trainers. Some can't be looked after by men at first.sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 9:27 am
Oh, are they known for that? The few greyhounds I've met have been among the laziest, most docile dogs.
It's why I stopped collecting them from trainers.....
A vet once said to me that when talking about dangerous dogs and dangerous breeds, people are looking at the wrong end of the lead.
robmatic wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:44 amThere's probaby a lot of truth in that. While there are definitely differences in temperaments between breeds, I'd be as worried that your typical Staffy for instance has been owned/abused by an ignorant prick.Tichtheid wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 9:35 ammat the expat wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:01 am
Not at all - it's part of the industry-scare campaign to allow them to be euthanised instead of rehomed (I volunteer with a rescue group). Sadly, the ones who are a bit snarly as those abused by the trainers. Some can't be looked after by men at first.
It's why I stopped collecting them from trainers.....
A vet once said to me that when talking about dangerous dogs and dangerous breeds, people are looking at the wrong end of the lead.
Saw a video the other day of Dave Bautista and his four rescue staffers. Apparently he’s trained them to run and hide at a key word.robmatic wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:44 amThere's probaby a lot of truth in that. While there are definitely differences in temperaments between breeds, I'd be as worried that your typical Staffy for instance has been owned/abused by an ignorant prick.Tichtheid wrote: Mon Jun 19, 2023 9:35 ammat the expat wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 2:01 am
Not at all - it's part of the industry-scare campaign to allow them to be euthanised instead of rehomed (I volunteer with a rescue group). Sadly, the ones who are a bit snarly as those abused by the trainers. Some can't be looked after by men at first.
It's why I stopped collecting them from trainers.....
A vet once said to me that when talking about dangerous dogs and dangerous breeds, people are looking at the wrong end of the lead.
Same here. Can't access my old emails.Tichtheid wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:45 am Virgin media email service has been down since Sunday for me, longer than that for others. Their twitter account just generates a stock answer to anyone who informs them of their loss of service.
It's just as well I'm not doing anything important like running a business or selling a house, as some on the Virgin Twitter account are doing
They've bunged up my monthly price 40 quid. I'm shifting to BT. It's that bad.Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:59 amSame here. Can't access my old emails.Tichtheid wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:45 am Virgin media email service has been down since Sunday for me, longer than that for others. Their twitter account just generates a stock answer to anyone who informs them of their loss of service.
It's just as well I'm not doing anything important like running a business or selling a house, as some on the Virgin Twitter account are doing
Virginmedia are a nasty, overcharging bunch of bastards with truly shite customer service. Their one redeeming feature has been that their service has always been fast and reliable for me.
They have spent the last few months destroying their one plus point. As soon as communityfibre are willing to wire up my block I'll be switching.
Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:59 amSame here. Can't access my old emails.Tichtheid wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:45 am Virgin media email service has been down since Sunday for me, longer than that for others. Their twitter account just generates a stock answer to anyone who informs them of their loss of service.
It's just as well I'm not doing anything important like running a business or selling a house, as some on the Virgin Twitter account are doing
Virginmedia are a nasty, overcharging bunch of bastards with truly shite customer service. Their one redeeming feature has been that their service has always been fast and reliable for me.
They have spent the last few months destroying their one plus point. As soon as communityfibre are willing to wire up my block I'll be switching.
Sadly they have me over a barrel. Best Openreach can offer is < 40Mb/s. I'm paying >£60 just for 250Mb/s internet. I could probably halve that by calling them every 6 months but that is a a horrific experience. I'm paying a premium not to speak to them. It's the broadband equivalent of not drinking in Wetherspoons.inactionman wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:05 amThey've bunged up my monthly price 40 quid. I'm shifting to BT. It's that bad.Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:59 amSame here. Can't access my old emails.Tichtheid wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:45 am Virgin media email service has been down since Sunday for me, longer than that for others. Their twitter account just generates a stock answer to anyone who informs them of their loss of service.
It's just as well I'm not doing anything important like running a business or selling a house, as some on the Virgin Twitter account are doing
Virginmedia are a nasty, overcharging bunch of bastards with truly shite customer service. Their one redeeming feature has been that their service has always been fast and reliable for me.
They have spent the last few months destroying their one plus point. As soon as communityfibre are willing to wire up my block I'll be switching.
inactionman wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 9:05 amThey've bunged up my monthly price 40 quid. I'm shifting to BT. It's that bad.Dinsdale Piranha wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:59 amSame here. Can't access my old emails.Tichtheid wrote: Tue Jun 20, 2023 8:45 am Virgin media email service has been down since Sunday for me, longer than that for others. Their twitter account just generates a stock answer to anyone who informs them of their loss of service.
It's just as well I'm not doing anything important like running a business or selling a house, as some on the Virgin Twitter account are doing
Virginmedia are a nasty, overcharging bunch of bastards with truly shite customer service. Their one redeeming feature has been that their service has always been fast and reliable for me.
They have spent the last few months destroying their one plus point. As soon as communityfibre are willing to wire up my block I'll be switching.
People are certainly deeply weird about their dogs sometimes. I am not a dog person. We always had one growing up, and I don’t object to decent sized ones, though I really dislike little yappy things. I have friends who don’t have kids and have dogs, and genuinely think it’s the same thing. (It totally isn’t). And although most owners are sensible, there are always some who insist on letting their animal run up to strangers. I don’t care if they’re friendly. Some people don’t like dogs, and shouldn’t have to deal with them just because you do. My younger son was very scared of them when he was small and it could be a real problem.Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:06 am Echo on the dogs. Love them but they're not toys, the poor farmers round me lose so many lambs due to predominantly but not exclusively Londoners coming out on day trips and not realising that their pet is still an animal and does animal things. Of course doing that around calves can be very dangerous, there's been a few people crushed to death by cows as a result of the cows being spooked by dogs.
Likewise dogs that jump at strangers. 'He's friendly' well great but I'd rather not have a massive dog I don't know jumping at me and it should be basic etiquette to train it out of them. We're a weird country when it comes to dogs.
Current major bugbear though which I think a lot of you who've been involved in running clubs will identify with - blokes turning up at my cricket club just in time for a warm up, ready to criticise the state of the ground/clubhouse/wicket etc. Didn't see you down here last night/this morning but you're happy to tell me what to do with my time.
Autism or another ND condition?Insane_Homer wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 5:51 amI have a similar problem with parents and children.sockwithaticket wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:29 pm Increasingly it's dog owners in general that get on my wick. So many just don't seem to have bothered training their animal or attempt to control them.
Our neighbours kids scream and tantrum constantly for hours and they do nothing to quiet their little princesses. Summer is a nightmare, literally can't have the windows open without having to listen to a screaming child tantrum for an hour or 2 every day.
Thankfully their lease has ended and they are moving soon.
People who refer to themselves/eachother on the pet's behalf as mum or dad and talk about their 'fur babies' are insufferable.Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:22 amPeople are certainly deeply weird about their dogs sometimes. I am not a dog person. We always had one growing up, and I don’t object to decent sized ones, though I really dislike little yappy things. I have friends who don’t have kids and have dogs, and genuinely think it’s the same thing. (It totally isn’t). And although most owners are sensible, there are always some who insist on letting their animal run up to strangers. I don’t care if they’re friendly. Some people don’t like dogs, and shouldn’t have to deal with them just because you do. My younger son was very scared of them when he was small and it could be a real problem.Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:06 am Echo on the dogs. Love them but they're not toys, the poor farmers round me lose so many lambs due to predominantly but not exclusively Londoners coming out on day trips and not realising that their pet is still an animal and does animal things. Of course doing that around calves can be very dangerous, there's been a few people crushed to death by cows as a result of the cows being spooked by dogs.
Likewise dogs that jump at strangers. 'He's friendly' well great but I'd rather not have a massive dog I don't know jumping at me and it should be basic etiquette to train it out of them. We're a weird country when it comes to dogs.
Current major bugbear though which I think a lot of you who've been involved in running clubs will identify with - blokes turning up at my cricket club just in time for a warm up, ready to criticise the state of the ground/clubhouse/wicket etc. Didn't see you down here last night/this morning but you're happy to tell me what to do with my time.
The people I really can’t stand, though, are those who bag up the dog’s shite and then abandon the bag. Congratulations, you just made it worse. At least the shite would biodegrade in a week or two.
I had a dog come up to me unsolicited the other day, but it didn’t run so much as waddle. I was in a pub in Basingstoke and this fat bulldog waddled up, breathing like a geriatric with a forty a day habit, head butted my leg and presented his back for scratches. I was absolutely fine with that (and his owner did say from a few tables away ‘sorry mate, you awright wiv dogs?’. Good dog / pub experience.Yr Alban wrote: Thu Jun 22, 2023 11:22 amPeople are certainly deeply weird about their dogs sometimes. I am not a dog person. We always had one growing up, and I don’t object to decent sized ones, though I really dislike little yappy things. I have friends who don’t have kids and have dogs, and genuinely think it’s the same thing. (It totally isn’t). And although most owners are sensible, there are always some who insist on letting their animal run up to strangers. I don’t care if they’re friendly. Some people don’t like dogs, and shouldn’t have to deal with them just because you do. My younger son was very scared of them when he was small and it could be a real problem.Paddington Bear wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 11:06 am Echo on the dogs. Love them but they're not toys, the poor farmers round me lose so many lambs due to predominantly but not exclusively Londoners coming out on day trips and not realising that their pet is still an animal and does animal things. Of course doing that around calves can be very dangerous, there's been a few people crushed to death by cows as a result of the cows being spooked by dogs.
Likewise dogs that jump at strangers. 'He's friendly' well great but I'd rather not have a massive dog I don't know jumping at me and it should be basic etiquette to train it out of them. We're a weird country when it comes to dogs.
Current major bugbear though which I think a lot of you who've been involved in running clubs will identify with - blokes turning up at my cricket club just in time for a warm up, ready to criticise the state of the ground/clubhouse/wicket etc. Didn't see you down here last night/this morning but you're happy to tell me what to do with my time.
The people I really can’t stand, though, are those who bag up the dog’s shite and then abandon the bag. Congratulations, you just made it worse. At least the shite would biodegrade in a week or two.
Cross bred dogs usually get the best traits from their parents. Pure bred dogs not so much.Oxbow wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 4:18 pm A mate of mine at school had a doberman greyhound cross, it must have had a lot of greyhound traits because it was the softest thing I've ever seen. It would come up to you, put its head on your lap and gently nudge you until you tickled it behind the ear.
Dobies can be really sentimental things too, easily, just when you get real problem dogs, that aren't easily trained, it often seems to be exaggerated breed traits. Terriers are probably the worst, but since they're often small, they get ignored more often. Greyhounds are lazy dogs that love a sprint.Oxbow wrote: Sun Jun 25, 2023 4:18 pm A mate of mine at school had a doberman greyhound cross, it must have had a lot of greyhound traits because it was the softest thing I've ever seen. It would come up to you, put its head on your lap and gently nudge you until you tickled it behind the ear.
They don't really enjoy running unless it's on their terms.
Was explained to me that it was what they were bred for - an hour or two a day running like hell to chase down rabbits or whatever else you were hunting then spend the other 23 hours a day lolling around in front of the fire in the castle.mat the expat wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 6:52 amThey don't really enjoy running unless it's on their terms.
Ours, we take to an off leash dog park occasionally, she just lies down
Pretty much, max speed chasing something, then nothing but rest.Biffer wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:15 pmWas explained to me that it was what they were bred for - an hour or two a day running like hell to chase down rabbits or whatever else you were hunting then spend the other 23 hours a day lolling around in front of the fire in the castle.mat the expat wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 6:52 amThey don't really enjoy running unless it's on their terms.
Ours, we take to an off leash dog park occasionally, she just lies down
Originally, but those hours are generally a sprint of 400m.Biffer wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 12:15 pmWas explained to me that it was what they were bred for - an hour or two a day running like hell to chase down rabbits or whatever else you were hunting then spend the other 23 hours a day lolling around in front of the fire in the castle.mat the expat wrote: Mon Jun 26, 2023 6:52 amThey don't really enjoy running unless it's on their terms.
Ours, we take to an off leash dog park occasionally, she just lies down
(starting caveat - I appreciate there's a tongue-in-cheek to all of this so please don't take too seriously)Biffer wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:33 am Pish on the radio again today about package holidays and how it's unfair that it costs more during school holidays and how the price should be evened up over tge year. .
I'm single, no kids, my taxes already pay for your kids' education and healthcare, and I have no problem with that. I'm not subsidising your fucking holidays as well though.
I think I'd prefer the workhouse.Sandstorm wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:18 am An overseas holiday with your kids (or for anyone else without kids) is a priviledge, not a right. If you can't afford it, tough shit. Go to Butlins instead.
But having kids removes a lot of flexibility from your life. Parents know this in all other aspects of their lives. Why not school holidays and overseas trips?inactionman wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:24 amI think I'd prefer the workhouse.Sandstorm wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:18 am An overseas holiday with your kids (or for anyone else without kids) is a priviledge, not a right. If you can't afford it, tough shit. Go to Butlins instead.
The point being made is that parents are required to pay inflated prices by the nature of only having a limited window of time, they could easily afford to take the kids away if they could do so at more flexible times.
I'm not sure you'll get many parents on board by saying they've agreed to not having holidays!Sandstorm wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:33 amBut having kids removes a lot of flexibility from your life. Parents know this in all other aspects of their lives. Why not school holidays and overseas trips?inactionman wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:24 amI think I'd prefer the workhouse.Sandstorm wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:18 am An overseas holiday with your kids (or for anyone else without kids) is a priviledge, not a right. If you can't afford it, tough shit. Go to Butlins instead.
The point being made is that parents are required to pay inflated prices by the nature of only having a limited window of time, they could easily afford to take the kids away if they could do so at more flexible times.
If you can't afford Greece every July, then maybe go every other year? There's a cost of living crisis apparently....these parents should watch their wallets IMO.
Term dates ARE staggered! Different counties have different holidays. So do public vs private schools. It's already a nightmare.inactionman wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:45 am
The point is ultimately quite simple - if the term dates could be staggered, holiday prices would not be so artificially high during school holidays. Term dates are entirely man-made and can be changed.
From my teching days I can count on one hand the number of times a kid who went on holiday during term time actually made the effort to catch up on the missed work.Biffer wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:33 am Pish on the radio again today about package holidays and how it's unfair that it costs more during school holidays and how the price should be evened up over tge year. .
I'm single, no kids, my taxes already pay for your kids' education and healthcare, and I have no problem with that. I'm not subsidising your fucking holidays as well though.
The most I've seen dates vary is by a week (my sister-in-law's nieces in Aberdeen start a week later than Edinburgh), it might be more varied but I'm not aware of it - I'd be interested in whether we could vary by greater degrees.Sandstorm wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:04 amTerm dates ARE staggered! Different counties have different holidays. So do public vs private schools. It's already a nightmare.inactionman wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 10:45 am
The point is ultimately quite simple - if the term dates could be staggered, holiday prices would not be so artificially high during school holidays. Term dates are entirely man-made and can be changed.
And not just for parents....have you tried running a busy department during half term??
We're not keen at all to take the kids out during term time,. Even though they're still early years primary they do miss out on teaching and development, but perhaps more importantly they miss out on the social development.sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:15 amFrom my teching days I can count on one hand the number of times a kid who went on holiday during term time actually made the effort to catch up on the missed work.Biffer wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:33 am Pish on the radio again today about package holidays and how it's unfair that it costs more during school holidays and how the price should be evened up over tge year. .
I'm single, no kids, my taxes already pay for your kids' education and healthcare, and I have no problem with that. I'm not subsidising your fucking holidays as well though.
If anything should be done it's looking into restricting the amount of price gouging done during school holiday periods rather than making it easier to take kids out during term time. I appreciate it's financially frustrating for many families, but you'd effectively be turning the nicer months into non-teaching ones with how many kids would likely be missing per class and where are we going to be getting that time back from? There's barely enough timetabled for everything as it is.
I genuinely think many of those points are bollocks. I pay for the education system now, not for forty years ago. I pay for pensions now. This idea of there being a pot is bs that politicians have used for years and it’s fallen into the general consciousness, but it’s utter rubbish. You pay for public services this year. There’s a social contract element there about everyone being treated fairly at all times in their lives but you pay for what’s delivered now.inactionman wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:58 am(starting caveat - I appreciate there's a tongue-in-cheek to all of this so please don't take too seriously)Biffer wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:33 am Pish on the radio again today about package holidays and how it's unfair that it costs more during school holidays and how the price should be evened up over tge year. .
I'm single, no kids, my taxes already pay for your kids' education and healthcare, and I have no problem with that. I'm not subsidising your fucking holidays as well though.
Point of order--your taxes are paying for the education you received. Much as a pensioner is receiving a pension as recognition of the contribution they've made over the years.
Yes, you're putting money into the pot that is being used now, but you took from the pot in your early years.
Second point of order - your cheap, out-of-season holiday is actually being subsidized by the parents who have to pay full-whack as they are forced to go on holiday at set times and at high prices - prices which provide the holiday companies their margin and allow them to carry lower prices in off-peak. These parents are not asking you to subside them, it's that they don't want to subsidise you. This should be obvious, surely?
The point many parents are making is that the school system forbids you to go on holiday other than on certain dates, which artificially increases demand which increases prices on those dates. On that one aspect, that situation isn't actually fair or reasonable.
What would make more sense would be for regions to stagger their holidays to smooth demand rather than try to regulate prices in high demand periods. At the minute Scotland break for summer 2 weeks before England, so we all flee for the airport as soon as last day of school ends to take advantage of lesser demand. It would make sense to do that more broadly, for example for adjacent counties to take half terms in different weeks as a matter of course.
Of course, this would mean your cheap late-season deal would not be so cheap. Sorry about that. But maybe it's about time you started pulling your weight and stop freeloading off of hard-working parents <you can guess who had a hard time getting the kids out the door to summer camp this morning>.
Fair enough, fuck off then.Biffer wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:43 amI genuinely think many of those points are bollocks. I pay for the education system now, not for forty years ago. I pay for pensions now. This idea of there being a pot is bs that politicians have used for years and it’s fallen into the general consciousness, but it’s utter rubbish. You pay for public services this year. There’s a social contract element there about everyone being treated fairly at all times in their lives but you pay for what’s delivered now.inactionman wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:58 am(starting caveat - I appreciate there's a tongue-in-cheek to all of this so please don't take too seriously)Biffer wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 9:33 am Pish on the radio again today about package holidays and how it's unfair that it costs more during school holidays and how the price should be evened up over tge year. .
I'm single, no kids, my taxes already pay for your kids' education and healthcare, and I have no problem with that. I'm not subsidising your fucking holidays as well though.
Point of order--your taxes are paying for the education you received. Much as a pensioner is receiving a pension as recognition of the contribution they've made over the years.
Yes, you're putting money into the pot that is being used now, but you took from the pot in your early years.
Second point of order - your cheap, out-of-season holiday is actually being subsidized by the parents who have to pay full-whack as they are forced to go on holiday at set times and at high prices - prices which provide the holiday companies their margin and allow them to carry lower prices in off-peak. These parents are not asking you to subside them, it's that they don't want to subsidise you. This should be obvious, surely?
The point many parents are making is that the school system forbids you to go on holiday other than on certain dates, which artificially increases demand which increases prices on those dates. On that one aspect, that situation isn't actually fair or reasonable.
What would make more sense would be for regions to stagger their holidays to smooth demand rather than try to regulate prices in high demand periods. At the minute Scotland break for summer 2 weeks before England, so we all flee for the airport as soon as last day of school ends to take advantage of lesser demand. It would make sense to do that more broadly, for example for adjacent counties to take half terms in different weeks as a matter of course.
Of course, this would mean your cheap late-season deal would not be so cheap. Sorry about that. But maybe it's about time you started pulling your weight and stop freeloading off of hard-working parents <you can guess who had a hard time getting the kids out the door to summer camp this morning>.
My holiday isn’t being subsidised. It’s fair value for demand at the time. People like market forces when they get reduced prices (see food for the last thirty years and consumer electronics) but whine like fuck when they see the other side of it. Higher prices at time of higher demand for a service which is limited capacity is the way market forces work. A service is not worth the same at all times - this should be obvious, surely?