NPR

Blake wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 8:55 amEngland's gameplan will be simple I think.

I think you're overestmating our coaching team there

Sards wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:56 pm Bit nervous of the lock gamble. Bearing in mind PSDT can...but lineouts have been a weak point.

I'd be licking my lips were I England.

The lineouts have been messy for sure, but there is method in the madness. We just need to get the execution right and there are a lot of moving parts.

Going for 4-man lineouts makes it a bit easier for the opposition to contest. So there is a lot of subterfuge going on...moving backwards and forwards, switching jumpers last second, and then the throw needs to be pinpoint. So it's understandable that things can go wrong there. BUT if you get it right, you have a great attacking platform with 4 forwards in the backline to get the opposition defense to stay narrow, which can create some space outside for the wings, either on the first phase, or when you swing at back from sideline to sideline.

If that isn't working though, you can always revert back to full lineouts where we will have 3-4 jumpers (Eben, RG, PSdT and Elrich) and play conservatively to secure the ball. That's what we did last week against the Scots. First half 4-man lineouts, didn't work, reverted to 6 or 7-man lineouts when the subs came on and it sorted itself out.

I think the lineouts are an easy fix and the concerns are overblown.
4-man lineouts are very tricky to get right consistently. There's virtually no room for error.

England pulled out one hell of a performance from nowhere in the semi final. They've got it in them to disrupt us, and enough history to get the emotions going.

But I like the look of our team. Our backline look ready to fire. It will be a very different prospect from the Scotland game.

Can we pull off a one off? Yes. Will we? Our scrum will be gaped, our defence will be picked off out wide, our full back is so slow that any break is probably a try, and our bench will be hopelessly outgunned. So no, probably not

Blake wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:09 am

Sards wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:56 pm Bit nervous of the lock gamble. Bearing in mind PSDT can...but lineouts have been a weak point.

I'd be licking my lips were I England.

The lineouts have been messy for sure, but there is method in the madness. We just need to get the execution right and there are a lot of moving parts.

Going for 4-man lineouts makes it a bit easier for the opposition to contest. So there is a lot of subterfuge going on...moving backwards and forwards, switching jumpers last second, and then the throw needs to be pinpoint. So it's understandable that things can go wrong there. BUT if you get it right, you have a great attacking platform with 4 forwards in the backline to get the opposition defense to stay narrow, which can create some space outside for the wings, either on the first phase, or when you swing at back from sideline to sideline.

If that isn't working though, you can always revert back to full lineouts where we will have 3-4 jumpers (Eben, RG, PSdT and Elrich) and play conservatively to secure the ball. That's what we did last week against the Scots. First half 4-man lineouts, didn't work, reverted to 6 or 7-man lineouts when the subs came on and it sorted itself out.

I think the lineouts are an easy fix and the concerns are overblown.
4-man lineouts are very tricky to get right consistently. There's virtually no room for error.

We cant blame Moerat this time.

RG, Eben & PSdT are world class lineout jumpers. Just keep it simple.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:42 am
RG, Eben & PSdT are world class lineout jumpers. Just keep it simple.

But Rassie won't. He'll go for the cute/moving 4-man lineouts Blake describes because 2024/25 mauls are less effective now. 1 stop and "Use!" No point having 8 guys in the lineout.
So what he wants is 4-man lineout, ball down to Williams, who chucks it to Wiese and Louw to truck it up the middle. Rinse. Repeat.

The problem - and it's a recurring issue - is that Bongi throws like a gimp. Marx also gets the yips every 2nd Test and then our new plan goes out the window.

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:12 pm

petej wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 3:48 pm

SaintK wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 2:42 pm
Quite, but they're from Leicester Tigers so all is good.
Steward against any of the Saffer back three will be embarrassing

Spencer has been meh and at least van poortfliet is the right side of 30 and can't be any slower. Is Furbank injured? If not we are clearly going to box kick everything and have steward challenging for the ball. I guess this tactic is to keep the margin of loss down. Cole still being in the squad is just silly at this point. If we lose by less than 10 while playing terrible rugby it will be regarded as a success.

Furbank just dropped afaik. Presume the thinking is that we've got a second playmaker in Slade and are barely using the back three for anything other than kick chase, so Furbank doesn't have an awful lot to do. Shame, as in a side actually looking to play some rugby he's a huge asset as we saw towards the end of the 6N and on the NZ tour. Hence Roebuck straight onto the bench too - he's tall, fairly good in the air and will chase kicks all day.

For my money we'd be better off dropping Slade for one of Lozowski or Northmore (the other centre options in the squad) and keeping Furbank.

Spencer may be meh, but not sure JVP is sufficiently better that dropping him in to start against the Boks is a particularly wise move.

JVP is Ben Youngs lite, spends forever Meercatting at the back of a ruck deciding what to do, then tosses the ball out when the defence is up and on the backline, absolute waste of a shirt.

Paddington Bear wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:36 am Can we pull off a one off? Yes. Will we? Our scrum will be gaped, our defence will be picked off out wide, our full back is so slow that any break is probably a try, and our bench will be hopelessly outgunned. So no, probably not

DEfinitely not, SA +16

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:06 am

OomStruisbaai wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:42 am
RG, Eben & PSdT are world class lineout jumpers. Just keep it simple.

But Rassie won't. He'll go for the cute/moving 4-man lineouts Blake describes because 2024/25 mauls are less effective now. 1 stop and "Use!" No point having 8 guys in the lineout.
So what he wants is 4-man lineout, ball down to Williams, who chucks it to Wiese and Louw to truck it up the middle. Rinse. Repeat.

The problem - and it's a recurring issue - is that Bongi throws like a gimp. Marx also gets the yips every 2nd Test and then our new plan goes out the window.

You is not smart enough for the genius of Tony Brown, mon.

ASMO wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:19 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:12 pm

petej wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 3:48 pm
Spencer has been meh and at least van poortfliet is the right side of 30 and can't be any slower. Is Furbank injured? If not we are clearly going to box kick everything and have steward challenging for the ball. I guess this tactic is to keep the margin of loss down. Cole still being in the squad is just silly at this point. If we lose by less than 10 while playing terrible rugby it will be regarded as a success.

Furbank just dropped afaik. Presume the thinking is that we've got a second playmaker in Slade and are barely using the back three for anything other than kick chase, so Furbank doesn't have an awful lot to do. Shame, as in a side actually looking to play some rugby he's a huge asset as we saw towards the end of the 6N and on the NZ tour. Hence Roebuck straight onto the bench too - he's tall, fairly good in the air and will chase kicks all day.

For my money we'd be better off dropping Slade for one of Lozowski or Northmore (the other centre options in the squad) and keeping Furbank.

Spencer may be meh, but not sure JVP is sufficiently better that dropping him in to start against the Boks is a particularly wise move.

JVP is Ben Youngs lite, spends forever Meercatting at the back of a ruck deciding what to do, then tosses the ball out when the defence is up and on the backline, absolute waste of a shirt.

Agree with Socket that Slade has been the problem - I would have kept Furbank but got him to step up into line to act as playmaker when required. Other than Smith England dont have any ball players from 10 out, Slade should have been filling that role but has been plain awful plus a huge liability in defence so you need someone else to try and direct traffic, unless the game plan is just to kick the shit out of the ball and have a tea of chasers outside 10 ....

dpedin wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:28 am

ASMO wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:19 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:12 pm

Furbank just dropped afaik. Presume the thinking is that we've got a second playmaker in Slade and are barely using the back three for anything other than kick chase, so Furbank doesn't have an awful lot to do. Shame, as in a side actually looking to play some rugby he's a huge asset as we saw towards the end of the 6N and on the NZ tour. Hence Roebuck straight onto the bench too - he's tall, fairly good in the air and will chase kicks all day.

For my money we'd be better off dropping Slade for one of Lozowski or Northmore (the other centre options in the squad) and keeping Furbank.

Spencer may be meh, but not sure JVP is sufficiently better that dropping him in to start against the Boks is a particularly wise move.

JVP is Ben Youngs lite, spends forever Meercatting at the back of a ruck deciding what to do, then tosses the ball out when the defence is up and on the backline, absolute waste of a shirt.

Agree with Socket that Slade has been the problem - I would have kept Furbank but got him to step up into line to act as playmaker when required. Other than Smith England dont have any ball players from 10 out, Slade should have been filling that role but has been plain awful plus a huge liability in defence so you need someone else to try and direct traffic, unless the game plan is just to kick the shit out of the ball and have a tea of chasers outside 10 ....

When discussing the various options for the 10 jersey this weekend (Smith, Ford or Smith) n an interview this week Richard Wigglesworth said the coaches' job was to ensure that, whoever is chosen, they're all playing the "England way". So yes, kicking the shit out of the ball is the game plan.

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:26 am
You is not smart enough for the genius of Tony Brown, mon.

You might want to rely on a former 10 to sort out your hooker's darts - I'm out.

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:58 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:26 am
You is not smart enough for the genius of Tony Brown, mon.

You might want to rely on a former 10 to sort out your hooker's darts - I'm out.

I think Victor Matfield and Schalk Burger are spot on in their advice that, if they just speed up the 4-man lineout it would help a lot in upping the success rate. By taking as long as they are to set and throw the ball in, the opposition counter jumpers are getting too much time to figure out where the ball is going and compete, making it more challenging for Bongi/Marx to thread the needle.

By speeding things up and catching the opposition flat-footed you don't have to worry about their jumper getting up in front of ours and the only real risk is an overthrow.

Blake wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:11 am

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:58 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:26 am
You is not smart enough for the genius of Tony Brown, mon.

You might want to rely on a former 10 to sort out your hooker's darts - I'm out.

I think Victor Matfield and Schalk Burger are spot on in their advice that, if they just speed up the 4-man lineout it would help a lot in upping the success rate. By taking as long as they are to set and throw the ball in, the opposition counter jumpers are getting too much time to figure out where the ball is going and compete, making it more challenging for Bongi/Marx to thread the needle.

By speeding things up and catching the opposition flat-footed you don't have to worry about their jumper getting up in front of ours and the only real risk is an overthrow.

Speed up a Bok lineout?? Are you mad??

If you're going to have a 4-man lineout, you shouldn't have to have a board meeting to discuss were to throw the darn ball, and there's no point running around like a Jack-Russel waiting for its food. There's only one person the ball can got to, the tallest guy. It's the most predictable lineout option and it depends on height and speed of execution. You let the tallest guy jump at the front and you use the tallest lifters, and you throw the ball high so your short arse opposition can't compete.

dpedin wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:28 am

ASMO wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:19 am

sockwithaticket wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 4:12 pm

Furbank just dropped afaik. Presume the thinking is that we've got a second playmaker in Slade and are barely using the back three for anything other than kick chase, so Furbank doesn't have an awful lot to do. Shame, as in a side actually looking to play some rugby he's a huge asset as we saw towards the end of the 6N and on the NZ tour. Hence Roebuck straight onto the bench too - he's tall, fairly good in the air and will chase kicks all day.

For my money we'd be better off dropping Slade for one of Lozowski or Northmore (the other centre options in the squad) and keeping Furbank.

Spencer may be meh, but not sure JVP is sufficiently better that dropping him in to start against the Boks is a particularly wise move.

JVP is Ben Youngs lite, spends forever Meercatting at the back of a ruck deciding what to do, then tosses the ball out when the defence is up and on the backline, absolute waste of a shirt.

Agree with Socket that Slade has been the problem - I would have kept Furbank but got him to step up into line to act as playmaker when required. Other than Smith England dont have any ball players from 10 out, Slade should have been filling that role but has been plain awful plus a huge liability in defence so you need someone else to try and direct traffic, unless the game plan is just to kick the shit out of the ball and have a tea of chasers outside 10 ....

Which of ccourse he does brilliantly for Saints
But then he and the Saints backs are working with one of the more innovative attack coaches in Sam Vesty!

average joe wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:47 am no point running around like a Jack-Russel waiting for its food.

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:13 am

Blake wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 11:11 am

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:58 am

You might want to rely on a former 10 to sort out your hooker's darts - I'm out.

I think Victor Matfield and Schalk Burger are spot on in their advice that, if they just speed up the 4-man lineout it would help a lot in upping the success rate. By taking as long as they are to set and throw the ball in, the opposition counter jumpers are getting too much time to figure out where the ball is going and compete, making it more challenging for Bongi/Marx to thread the needle.

By speeding things up and catching the opposition flat-footed you don't have to worry about their jumper getting up in front of ours and the only real risk is an overthrow.

Speed up a Bok lineout?? Are you mad??

I agree that 4 man lineouts need to be a lot faster to be more effective. The longer you take, the easier it is for the opposition to read it. The boks are not used to doing a lot of short lineouts so it might take a little time to get it sorted in real match situations. And if it really is the plan to do more shorter lineouts because of the new mauling laws by moving the main contact point to the next phase after the lineout, then they hopefully sort it out sooner than later. I think our lineouts have been problematic all year long, even with the full man lineouts, if looking at the stats of lineouts lost, it is a lot higher than the average of previous years I believe. The throwers and jumpers do not seem to be on the same wavelength this season for whatever reason, lots of overthrows as well where ball do not get to hand.

Blake wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 8:55 am

bok_viking wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:58 pm

Sards wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 1:38 pm Like I said. Bench forwards from last week starting this week.
All out pace in the backline to run the English ragged.
Fassi is very safe under the high ball so all kicking by England more than adequately covered. And Fassi scores tries for fun.
This is the A team. Scotland got the B team

Until it starts raining, then there will be very little running and that is where Libbok is a bit of a worry for me if we have to rely on his kicking. But if it somehow stays dry, the game could be very exciting. I think just about everyone could have guessed that this would be the team apart from the 9/10 positions and the 5/3 split.

If the weather stays dry this backline can definitely take advantage of the England rush defense from the last 2 weeks. Arendse and Kolbi will most likely be peppered with high balls, specially with the new regulations related to protection of the catcher with the perception that the small guys will be vulnerable under the high ball as a result.

No rain forecasted, but it's England so it will be cold and damp; conditions Manie typically struggles in when the Stormers go north in November/December in the URC. So it's definitely the weak point in the team and the area England will target with their rush defense.

BUT Manie is also the best and most deceptive 10 we have at exploiting any doglegs in the defense if England get their linespeed wrong, so it will be interesting to see who can execute it the best. Our new fancy attack with multiple pods and passing out the back by by the first forward receiver didn't look flash against Ireland when they effectively rushed us, so we'll have to see if the couple of matches since has gotten the players more comfortable with it, or we are going to get nailed way behind the advantage line. Cunningham-South is going to target Manie hard all match, like PSdT did to Farrel, Ford and Barrett.

Fassi at 15 is a good call IMO. He's our best player under the high ball. Also happy having the safety net of Pollard on the bench if Rassie has to pull the ripcord like he did last year.

England's gameplan will be simple I think. Target the wobbly lineout, target Libbok with the rush and get him behind the advantage line, avoid scrums, and pepper the Bok back 3 with high and contestable kicks. Honestly, it could work and it will be close...like the last game in the semi-final. You know the English team will be up for it and claiming a Bok scalp will take a lot of pressure off of the the players and coaches.

But if England get their execution wrong, or the Boks prepared well and manage to negate those tactics, it could be an ugly blowout.

Yeah I saw that the weather says it will only be overcast but there is a slight chance of drizzle. I hope Libbok has a good game, that last thing he needs is being pulled early again and I think he will be targeted by England to try and unsettle him like the semi final.
If only Sacha did not get injured, this is the type of game I would have loved to see him in.

Sandstorm wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:58 am

Guy Smiley wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 10:26 am
You is not smart enough for the genius of Tony Brown, mon.

You might want to rely on a former 10 to sort out your hooker's darts - I'm out.

I was watching the Aotearoa Rugby Pod yesterday and they were having a laugh over Tony Brown's love for the 4 man lineout, he's been using them for years. This joking around stemmed from their discussion of Matfield and Burger getting frustrated over it. The thinking behind it is wrapped up in how many options it gives you and how flexible it allows the attack to be coming off it... Brown is your attack coach, right, so its a mistake to look solely at the lineout when you need to be looking at the overall picture that he is trying to set up.

It's still a work in progress, he's new to the set up still and players take time to adapt when changes are introduced.

On the tube, Twickenham bound. One of the partners at work has given me his debentures for the day to ‘recognise your hard recently’, a novel way for him to ruin my weekend at least.

Chilly but dry, currently experiencing a very strange bout of hope. Maybe the Boks will get stuck in traffic or something

Blake wrote: Fri Nov 15, 2024 9:09 am

Sards wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:56 pm Bit nervous of the lock gamble. Bearing in mind PSDT can...but lineouts have been a weak point.

I'd be licking my lips were I England.

The lineouts have been messy for sure, but there is method in the madness. We just need to get the execution right and there are a lot of moving parts.

Going for 4-man lineouts makes it a bit easier for the opposition to contest. So there is a lot of subterfuge going on...moving backwards and forwards, switching jumpers last second, and then the throw needs to be pinpoint. So it's understandable that things can go wrong there. BUT if you get it right, you have a great attacking platform with 4 forwards in the backline to get the opposition defense to stay narrow, which can create some space outside for the wings, either on the first phase, or when you swing at back from sideline to sideline.

If that isn't working though, you can always revert back to full lineouts where we will have 3-4 jumpers (Eben, RG, PSdT and Elrich) and play conservatively to secure the ball. That's what we did last week against the Scots. First half 4-man lineouts, didn't work, reverted to 6 or 7-man lineouts when the subs came on and it sorted itself out.

I think the lineouts are an easy fix and the concerns are overblown.
4-man lineouts are very tricky to get right consistently. There's virtually no room for error.

RG and Eben have been injury free touch wood. But they big lads and anything can happen over 80 minutes and we don't have cover

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 1:10 pm On the tube, Twickenham bound. One of the partners at work has given me his debentures for the day to ‘recognise your hard recently’,

You're.

:

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 2:13 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 1:10 pm On the tube, Twickenham bound. One of the partners at work has given me his debentures for the day to ‘recognise your hard recently’,

You're.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 2:13 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 1:10 pm On the tube, Twickenham bound. One of the partners at work has given me his debentures for the day to ‘recognise your hard recently’,

You're.

Not getting TNT Sports for a few matches a year, so that's me nit watching this one.

average joe wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2024 6:51 am

Yeeb wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 8:15 am

Sards wrote: Wed Nov 13, 2024 6:46 am England are talking a very good game on social media......boks are shaking in their boots probably.
Forcing Rassie to only announce his team on thursday whilst he formulates a plan to couter this threat

Really ? I’m not a media hog especially , but all I’ve seen are variations of :
England are shit
Borthwick is a cunt
Ireland are worlds best team
Kolisi getting divorced

All I see is

The bomb squad makes the game unsafe.
WR must reduce the number of replacements
Springbok players are all giants.
Rassie is a wit kant.
Playing the Springboks is unfair.

I've finished reading the pommy Saturday papers, and you have nailed it. This is what they missed:

1. The semi last year was played in a rain storm. Boks went out with the intention to use space and possession, why pick Libbok otherwise, conditions were terrible for it and Libbok was pulled early, the Boks then had to shift their game to one orientated around defence/kicking/set piece/capitalise on errors. The other thing which isn't mentioned about that match, is the Boks played a massive match the week before, the France quarter is in the running for the best Bok match I've seen, hard to get up again so soon after a match like that (as England should know after their semi in 2019).

2. The Boks haven't picked a bomb squad, it's a 5/3, just like in the semi last year. The Bok backline selections are very similar to that match (if it's a different player, a similar type of player has replaced them). Rassie explained this in one of the press conferences, that the way England play takes a lot out of the backs in terms of running (to defend and get back onside), so he wants fresh backs.

3. Twickenham is more of a known quantity for us than it was in the past. All of our players have played a lot in Europe (for clubs there or in the URC), they know the conditions. They've also just played a lot at Twickenham, their last two tests there were big wins against Wales and the ABs.

4. Boks built the whole tour around this match. No disrespect to the other sides, but looking at the selections against Scotland and who is unpicked/only been on the bench and so likely to play against Wales, the Boks targeted England. Rassie said in press conference that they planned out all the selections before even getting on the plane and the players were told beforehand, backline players who didn't play against Scotland immediately started doing video work preparing for England, once opposed training was over for Scotland. My viewing of the Scotland test was interrupted and haven't got round to watching it again, but don't agree it was that poor a performance, they used possession and created some good tries. Very unlikely the Boks don't get up for this match, they've targeted it and it is England.

... I reckon the Boks are going to deploy their possession based game, something similar to what they intended to do in the semi last year. It has been something they've been working on for awhile (pre Tony Brown), but some of the law changes make it the percentage play now (if a side has the ability). I think the Boks view the English back three as stronger defending high kicks but weaker defending against genuinely fast runners, I think it's about the matchup and not just about what the Boks are aiming for generally. If it comes off the Boks win comfortably (more than a score), if the Bok pack doesn't get on top enough and it doesn't workout, they have to decide when to cut their losses and go more narrow.

All of this is missing from what you'll find pre-match in England. Granted I wouldn't expect all of it. But would expect to see someone pointing out "the Boks didn't pick a bench stacked with forwards just like they didn't in the semi, and they've picked Libbok again like the semi".

Libbok is going to decide this.

OomStruisbaai wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 4:44 pm Libbok is going to decide this.

Russian roulette

Hal Jordan wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 4:16 pm Not getting TNT Sports for a few matches a year, so that's me nit watching this one.

Double pants, as now my son has been invited over to his cousins' place for an impromptu sleepover. My wife was already going over there for a girl's night out with her sister and when said cousins got wind of this, pressure was applied...

One of those rare fixtures where you want both teams to lose

Borthwick and Monye having a game of who is most annoying.

Slick wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 5:16 pm One of those rare fixtures where you want both teams to lose

Yep. Just want Sefrica to lose a little less.

GrahamWa wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 5:23 pm Borthwick and Monye having a game of who is most annoying.

No brainer, Monye doesnt pick the team or coach the squad.

English singer went out way too fast and had to really row it back. Screwed that up quite a lot.

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 5:38 pm English singer went out way too fast and had to really row it back. Screwed that up quite a lot.

Bring back Laura!!

Too many England players with their socks down. Poor

ScarfaceClaw wrote: Sat Nov 16, 2024 5:38 pm English singer went out way too fast and had to really row it back. Screwed that up quite a lot.

Can't blame them for wanting to speed up our anthem.

Good try by England. Sefrica are so narrow. Acres of space on the outside.

Good start