inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:36 pm
There you have it. Get your headshots in early.
If it was a malicious headshot then it would be a red. An accidental clash after 14 seconds is not the same thing. Is this empathy thing a novel concept for you chaps?
For better or for worse, it's defined as a strict liability offence. There are rules for mitigation - it being the first minute of a match is not one of those mitigations, funnily enough, as concussion doesn't really take much notice of the match clock.
I'm also not sure that empathy is really what we're after here, I'm sure many people would have some slight degree of empathy for Byron McGuigan losing his rag with Nick Tomkins but it in no way makes it excusable.
inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:36 pm
There you have it. Get your headshots in early.
If it was a malicious headshot then it would be a red. An accidental clash after 14 seconds is not the same thing. Is this empathy thing a novel concept for you chaps?
For better or for worse, it's defined as a strict liability offence. There are rules for mitigation - it being the first minute of a match is not one of those mitigations, funnily enough, as concussion doesn't really take much notice of the match clock.
I'm also not sure that empathy is really what we're after here, I'm sure many people would have some slight degree of empathy for Byron McGuigan losing his rag with Nick Tomkins but it in no way makes it excusable.
no different to a punch - some refs will automatically go red while others might go yellow with a stern warning
well actually a punch is typically intentional whilst a headclash is usually not.
all depends how anal you are
imho the NH refs [the French excepted] are on the wrong ticket - overly officious, tending towards martinet with a good few martinets on show
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:31 pm
by Kawazaki
Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:55 pm
It's a pain when there's an early red, but CMK will be held to his decisions by a post match assessment.
His responsibility is to follow the framework and issue the appropriate sanction on the field. Time on the clock isn't on the framework
To be honest, I'd be fine if the 20 minutes and then a replacement can come on ever got into the law book properly for a red.
Billy Vunipola got whacked in the face, full head to head contact in the Saints game when he carried the ball up last week. It cut his lip which need treatment on the pitch. Repeated replays were shown of the clash. Ref and TMO didn't even mention it. There clearly is scope for refs to interpret the law. CMK just went for red card straight away, no empathy, no reading of the game. It was pathetic refereeing.
inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:36 pm
There you have it. Get your headshots in early.
If it was a malicious headshot then it would be a red. An accidental clash after 14 seconds is not the same thing. Is this empathy thing a novel concept for you chaps?
For better or for worse, it's defined as a strict liability offence. There are rules for mitigation - it being the first minute of a match is not one of those mitigations, funnily enough, as concussion doesn't really take much notice of the match clock.
I'm also not sure that empathy is really what we're after here, I'm sure many people would have some slight degree of empathy for Byron McGuigan losing his rag with Nick Tomkins but it in no way makes it excusable.
Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:55 pm
It's a pain when there's an early red, but CMK will be held to his decisions by a post match assessment.
His responsibility is to follow the framework and issue the appropriate sanction on the field. Time on the clock isn't on the framework
To be honest, I'd be fine if the 20 minutes and then a replacement can come on ever got into the law book properly for a red.
Billy Vunipola got whacked in the face, full head to head contact in the Saints game when he carried the ball up last week. It cut his lip which need treatment on the pitch. Repeated replays were shown of the clash. Ref and TMO didn't even mention it. There clearly is scope for refs to interpret the law. CMK just went for red card straight away, no empathy, no reading of the game. It was pathetic refereeing.
Similarly when Tupou attempted a head to head tackle on Sam Johnson in the autumn tests it didn't even get considered as an offence.
Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:55 pm
It's a pain when there's an early red, but CMK will be held to his decisions by a post match assessment.
His responsibility is to follow the framework and issue the appropriate sanction on the field. Time on the clock isn't on the framework
To be honest, I'd be fine if the 20 minutes and then a replacement can come on ever got into the law book properly for a red.
Billy Vunipola got whacked in the face, full head to head contact in the Saints game when he carried the ball up last week. It cut his lip which need treatment on the pitch. Repeated replays were shown of the clash. Ref and TMO didn't even mention it. There clearly is scope for refs to interpret the law. CMK just went for red card straight away, no empathy, no reading of the game. It was pathetic refereeing.
Similarly when Tupou attempted a head to head tackle on Sam Johnson in the autumn tests it didn't even get considered as an offence.
I've noticed over the last couple of years that what routinely gets punished at domestic level (or Prem at least) frequently gets let go or dealt with more leniently during internationals.
Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:55 pm
It's a pain when there's an early red, but CMK will be held to his decisions by a post match assessment.
His responsibility is to follow the framework and issue the appropriate sanction on the field. Time on the clock isn't on the framework
To be honest, I'd be fine if the 20 minutes and then a replacement can come on ever got into the law book properly for a red.
Billy Vunipola got whacked in the face, full head to head contact in the Saints game when he carried the ball up last week. It cut his lip which need treatment on the pitch. Repeated replays were shown of the clash. Ref and TMO didn't even mention it. There clearly is scope for refs to interpret the law. CMK just went for red card straight away, no empathy, no reading of the game. It was pathetic refereeing.
I don't think that's interpretation so much as not doing their job if it was definite head to head from an upright tackle. The framework is clear.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:08 pm
by Monk
Ja - you get the laws and then you get the “framework”
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:08 pm
by Monk
.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:31 pm
by notfatcat
The easiest solution to not getting red carded in the first minute for tackling someone head on head is not to tackle someone head on head in the first minute.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:47 am
by Niegs
This one was pure laziness on the part of the tackler. Had more than enough time to assess, ball carrier steps out, he for some reason even leans to that side which, even if he'd gone low, was going to put head in front. Could have easily put head to the right (left of carrier) and made a proper tackle, whether around chest height or lower.
Announcer saying he'd been out for a long absence had my coach senses tingling, wondering how much contact work he'd been doing in the build up to coming back to get his mindset in the right place re: safety and effectiveness.
If it was a malicious headshot then it would be a red. An accidental clash after 14 seconds is not the same thing. Is this empathy thing a novel concept for you chaps?
For better or for worse, it's defined as a strict liability offence. There are rules for mitigation - it being the first minute of a match is not one of those mitigations, funnily enough, as concussion doesn't really take much notice of the match clock.
I'm also not sure that empathy is really what we're after here, I'm sure many people would have some slight degree of empathy for Byron McGuigan losing his rag with Nick Tomkins but it in no way makes it excusable.
Fuck off with the strawman please.
Busted.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:42 am
by ASMO
Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:47 am
This one was pure laziness on the part of the tackler. Had more than enough time to assess, ball carrier steps out, he for some reason even leans to that side which, even if he'd gone low, was going to put head in front. Could have easily put head to the right (left of carrier) and made a proper tackle, whether around chest height or lower.
Announcer saying he'd been out for a long absence had my coach senses tingling, wondering how much contact work he'd been doing in the build up to coming back to get his mindset in the right place re: safety and effectiveness.
Thats never a red, yellow for sure.
Not sure what Bath can take from that, they were shit against a 14 man Worcester who are not exactly tearing up trees themselves, and they only just scraped over the line.
Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:47 am
This one was pure laziness on the part of the tackler. Had more than enough time to assess, ball carrier steps out, he for some reason even leans to that side which, even if he'd gone low, was going to put head in front. Could have easily put head to the right (left of carrier) and made a proper tackle, whether around chest height or lower.
Announcer saying he'd been out for a long absence had my coach senses tingling, wondering how much contact work he'd been doing in the build up to coming back to get his mindset in the right place re: safety and effectiveness.
Thats never a red, yellow for sure.
Not sure what Bath can take from that, they were shit against a 14 man Worcester who are not exactly tearing up trees themselves, and they only just scraped over the line.
I'd have thought just getting the monkey off the back was a result in itself.
Most of the problems look to be with drive and confidence, they're not bad players.
Niegs wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:47 am
This one was pure laziness on the part of the tackler. Had more than enough time to assess, ball carrier steps out, he for some reason even leans to that side which, even if he'd gone low, was going to put head in front. Could have easily put head to the right (left of carrier) and made a proper tackle, whether around chest height or lower.
Announcer saying he'd been out for a long absence had my coach senses tingling, wondering how much contact work he'd been doing in the build up to coming back to get his mindset in the right place re: safety and effectiveness.
Thats never a red, yellow for sure.
Not sure what Bath can take from that, they were shit against a 14 man Worcester who are not exactly tearing up trees themselves, and they only just scraped over the line.
I'd have thought just getting the monkey off the back was a result in itself.
Most of the problems look to be with drive and confidence, they're not bad players.
I think its more in the coaching space, it looks like Hooper has lost the dressing room, getting a defence coach is just a band aid, the rot is still there.,
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:39 pm
by Paddington Bear
Have to say my sympathy for any players still picking up reds for head contact is very limited. These aren't amateurs, this is quite literally their job and they know what will happen if they make head contact. They've had plenty of time to adjust techniques etc.
Not sure what Bath can take from that, they were shit against a 14 man Worcester who are not exactly tearing up trees themselves, and they only just scraped over the line.
I'd have thought just getting the monkey off the back was a result in itself.
Most of the problems look to be with drive and confidence, they're not bad players.
I think its more in the coaching space, it looks like Hooper has lost the dressing room, getting a defence coach is just a band aid, the rot is still there.,
I agree - the malaise and lack of confidence is a symptom.
I'll be interested to see how long some of the current coaches last once we hit the end of season - Hatley is definitely replaced as Head Coach, although not sure if he's being shifted to new role or if he's departing, not clear what happens with Hooper (if anything)
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 2:46 pm
by Niegs
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:39 pm
Have to say my sympathy for any players still picking up reds for head contact is very limited. These aren't amateurs, this is quite literally their job and they know what will happen if they make head contact. They've had plenty of time to adjust techniques etc.
Agreed! It's been, what, two years since we've all had this... (looks like May of 2019)
Raggs wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:09 pm
Can't see how it's not a red, strike, eye area, hair pull.
Not enough force as Genge pulls the blow. Genge is lucky he doesn't accidentally contact eyes. We've all seen with Farrell how much you certain players can get away with.
As the sanction should have been a red card, I can't see him surviving the inevitable citing.
He was acting the complete wanker today; so he can have no complaints; & his past record isn't going to do him any favours.
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:39 pm
Have to say my sympathy for any players still picking up reds for head contact is very limited. These aren't amateurs, this is quite literally their job and they know what will happen if they make head contact. They've had plenty of time to adjust techniques etc.
Agreed! It's been, what, two years since we've all had this... (looks like May of 2019)
Yes. If we change something at work and the next week I forget about it and it costs us business I'd apologise for the cock up and likely everyone would move on. Doing the same two years later would be entirely on me.
petej wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:27 pm
Not enough force as Genge pulls the blow. Genge is lucky he doesn't accidentally contact eyes. We've all seen with Farrell how much you certain players can get away with.
As the sanction should have been a red card, I can't see him surviving the inevitable citing.
He was acting the complete wanker today; so he can have no complaints; & his past record isn't going to do him any favours.
Not cited!!
Silly me; I'd ignored the fact that the ban would take him out of the 6N squad.
petej wrote: ↑Sun Jan 09, 2022 4:27 pm
Not enough force as Genge pulls the blow. Genge is lucky he doesn't accidentally contact eyes. We've all seen with Farrell how much you certain players can get away with.
As the sanction should have been a red card, I can't see him surviving the inevitable citing.
He was acting the complete wanker today; so he can have no complaints; & his past record isn't going to do him any favours.
Not cited!!
Livid. The hair pull alone is worth two weeks according to law 9.27.
SaintK wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:50 pm
Not cited!!
Silly me; I'd ignored the fact that the ban would take him out of the 6N squad.
Even if the reason isn't as nakedly corrupt as that, it really doesn't look good.
It really doesn't!!!
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 pm
by JM2K6
Jack Kenningham out for six months after having neck surgery. Poor guy. He's been heroic since stepping up after Will Evans was taken out.
Leaves Quins very bare at 7.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:35 pm
by sockwithaticket
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 pm
Jack Kenningham out for six months after having neck surgery. Poor guy. He's been heroic since stepping up after Will Evans was taken out.
Leaves Quins very bare at 7.
He's been amazing and that really sucks for him personally, a disappointing set back when he's building such a strong collection of performances.
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 pm
Jack Kenningham out for six months after having neck surgery. Poor guy. He's been heroic since stepping up after Will Evans was taken out.
Leaves Quins very bare at 7.
He's been amazing and that really sucks for him personally, a disappointing set back when he's building such a strong collection of performances.
Any news on when Evans is due back?
Not for a while, he had another op a month ago I think
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:01 pm
Jack Kenningham out for six months after having neck surgery. Poor guy. He's been heroic since stepping up after Will Evans was taken out.
Leaves Quins very bare at 7.
He's been amazing and that really sucks for him personally, a disappointing set back when he's building such a strong collection of performances.
Any news on when Evans is due back?
Not for a while, he had another op a month ago I think
Neck injuries always worry me. They have a nasty habit of being worse than they initally seem. That's what did for George Lowe before his time IIRC.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:36 pm
by Raggs
That really sucks for him, he was going so well too.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:38 pm
by JM2K6
Happened at a ruck where he got melted by multiple Exeter players, include Gray straight in at the side at 90 degrees
Shame for the guy. There'll be plenty of rucks with more impact in a game than that and all parties will get up and have no injuries (barring the long term risks).
Really is a cruel game sometimes.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:50 pm
by JM2K6
It's the competing forces and the different angles. Usually it's knees that get fucked by that.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:09 pm
by Kawazaki
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 11, 2022 10:38 pm
Happened at a ruck where he got melted by multiple Exeter players, include Gray straight in at the side at 90 degrees
It's not a great angle but Kenningham looks already injured where you've frozen play for that screen grab and he's not hit by Gray. It actually looked like he collides with Collier or Marchant while he's tackling the Exeter player low down.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:11 am
by sockwithaticket
Dombrandt signs an extension with Quins, but Tizard is apparently off. No destination confirmed as yet.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:01 am
by JM2K6
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:11 am
Dombrandt signs an extension with Quins, but Tizard is apparently off. No destination confirmed as yet.
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:11 am
Dombrandt signs an extension with Quins, but Tizard is apparently off. No destination confirmed as yet.
It's Saracens.
Interesting, guess that means Swinson is off/retiring? Also possibly puts a Kruis return up in the air. I know he's said he'll be back next season so as to make a push for the World Cup and assumed he'd just end up back at Saracens.
sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:11 am
Dombrandt signs an extension with Quins, but Tizard is apparently off. No destination confirmed as yet.
It's Saracens.
Interesting, guess that means Swinson is off/retiring? Also possibly puts a Kruis return up in the air. I know he's said he'll be back next season so as to make a push for the World Cup and assumed he'd just end up back at Saracens.
I didn't know Kpoku had gone to France, so Sarries are a little thin on the ground there. Tizard is a cracking player already who really kicked on this season so it's sad to see him go from a Quins perspective. It'll be interesting to see how he goes, a lot of Saracens success has been built on taking young players from other clubs, but their hit rate with Quins players recently hasn't been so hot (Johnson was shite, Ibuanokpe retired already)
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:48 am
by inactionman
in sunny west country (the nice bit anyway), rumours are that Tian Schoemann is off to Sale and Cips is not going to be renewed, so Bath have on rookie 10 and some colts - I've heard noises about other Saffas coming in at 10 but nothing confirmed.
There's also talk of Watson and JJ staying now there's been some shakeup, mixed responses on Bath forum as the issues in squad are elsewhere and require investment but I'd be moist happy (eta: unfortunate typo) to see two great players staying put.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:50 am
by ASMO
inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:48 am
in sunny west country (the nice bit anyway), rumours are that Tian Schoemann is off to Sale and Cips is not going to be renewed, so Bath have on rookie 10 and some colts - I've heard noises about other Saffas coming in at 10 but nothing confirmed.
There's also talk of Watson and JJ staying now there's been some shakeup, mixed responses on Bath forum as the issues in squad are elsewhere and require investment but I'd be moist happy to see two great players staying put.
Not sure either of those will stay with Hooper still at the helm, he is the maggot in the apple i am afraid.
inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:48 am
in sunny west country (the nice bit anyway), rumours are that Tian Schoemann is off to Sale and Cips is not going to be renewed, so Bath have on rookie 10 and some colts - I've heard noises about other Saffas coming in at 10 but nothing confirmed.
There's also talk of Watson and JJ staying now there's been some shakeup, mixed responses on Bath forum as the issues in squad are elsewhere and require investment but I'd be moist happy to see two great players staying put.
Not sure either of those will stay with Hooper still at the helm, he is the maggot in the apple i am afraid.
Apparently Ed Griffiths has had chats with players and may have swayed their thinking, wondering what it is he's promised....
