A place where escape goats go to play
https://notplanetrugby.com/
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:05 amWhy not? He's been superb for quite some time now. Not many centres performing at his level in English club rugby, and he has experience across the backline.
Yeah possibly. I'm just very mindful that we've only got 15/16 tests 'til the world cup and a lot of players to find out about. If they're going to be viable test options they need game time to go with their caps and against tier 1 opposition.
I just think Eddie will be wary of the inexperience in the team and will choose to switch one experienced member for another. Maybe Malins starts and Daly benches, but I'd be surprised if Daly wasn't in the match day squad.Lobby wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:11 amDaly wasn't even in the squad until May pulled out, so I think it unlikely he'll be in the starting 15. Malins did very well in the Autumn and I think is more likely to start than Daly. With Farrell absent, and based on the current squad, I would expect Atkinson and Slade to be the centres, with Marchant as the other winger.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:33 amI'd expect
9. Youngs
10. Smith
11. Daly
12. Slade
13. Marchant
14. Nowell
15. Steward
21. Quirke/Randall
22. Ford
23. Malins/Furbank
Strip Ford out of the equation if Eddie decides to continue with 6-2 bench splits
Personally I'd like to see us go more experimental/inexperienced as there aren't many opportunities left to get meaningful international game time into even the capped newer faces. Swap Youngs out for Quirke, put Atkinson in at 12, Malins to 14. Slade and Nowell scrap for the 23 shirt with one falling out of the team.
Eddie will play Youngs at 9 whatever the rest of us think.
I'd not be upset to see Northmore given a chance (definitely more than Atkinson), but don't think he's demanding anything yet by any means (at least for the 12 shirt).JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:04 am oh, I agree with most of this except for Atkinson not looking like he was up to international level - I think he's shown enough to deserve a shot. Northmore's played 12 a few times and he does have the bulk for it to go with his lines and link play. I think those bad hands are not completely out of character for him; he shouldn't drop everything but it is a slight concern, and he is inexperienced in the position. Slade I prefer the further away from 10 he gets but I can't argue that he didn't seem like a man reborn against SA.
Farrell hasn't had any running game for a while. Not sure what you mean by his work rate, his tackling's dropped to normal levels most of the time and while he does love to get involved with the ball that's basically what you'd expect from a "2nd 5/8" style 12, otherwise he'd be a completely empty shirt (and I think you'd agree his involvements have not always been positive, particularly his decision making over when to kick)
You've got eddie picking nowell twice there and I'm pretty sure he'd pick slade over MarchantKawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:16 am My England Backs v Eddie Jones's likely England Backs;
Me/Eddie
15. Stewart/Stewart
14. Malins/Nowell
13. Slade/Marchant
12. Lozowski/Atkinson?
11. Radwan/Nowell
10. Smith/Smith
9. Robson/Youngs
21. Quirke/None (6+2 split)
22. Nowell/Quirke
23. OHC/Malins
Lozowski back up kicker and 10.
Slade back up 12
Malins back up 15.
Nowell back up wing and 13.
OHC back up wing.
Happyhooker wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:33 amYou've got eddie picking nowell twice there and I'm pretty sure he'd pick slade over MarchantKawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:16 am My England Backs v Eddie Jones's likely England Backs;
Me/Eddie
15. Stewart/Stewart
14. Malins/Nowell
13. Slade/Slade
12. Lozowski/Atkinson?
11. Radwan/Daly
10. Smith/Smith
9. Robson/Youngs
21. Quirke/None (6+2 split)
22. Nowell/Quirke
23. OHC/Malins
Lozowski back up kicker and 10.
Slade back up 12
Malins back up 15.
Nowell back up wing and 13.
OHC back up wing.
You've basically just repeated yourself. Northmore has been excellent for some time, why does he look like one of those? He's been a huge player for the champion team, has scored heaps of tries and has made breaks for fun while also being a good gainline option and a big body. He's not a flawless player, I worry about his tackling and his hands can sometimes let him down, but he's absolutely deserved a call-up. There's a reason why people were talking up the Cardiff Met thing, it's not just because of Dombrandt - Northmore picks great lines and is a high impact player.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:19 am
He'll have his time but he's nowhere near. He's got the look of the next Eddie hook off player writ large.
I get you. I do think that we're talking about Farrell from up to and including the world cup, though - he's been a worse 12 since then (and he was very good at the RWC).Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:20 amI'd not be upset to see Northmore given a chance (definitely more than Atkinson), but don't think he's demanding anything yet by any means (at least for the 12 shirt).JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:04 am oh, I agree with most of this except for Atkinson not looking like he was up to international level - I think he's shown enough to deserve a shot. Northmore's played 12 a few times and he does have the bulk for it to go with his lines and link play. I think those bad hands are not completely out of character for him; he shouldn't drop everything but it is a slight concern, and he is inexperienced in the position. Slade I prefer the further away from 10 he gets but I can't argue that he didn't seem like a man reborn against SA.
Farrell hasn't had any running game for a while. Not sure what you mean by his work rate, his tackling's dropped to normal levels most of the time and while he does love to get involved with the ball that's basically what you'd expect from a "2nd 5/8" style 12, otherwise he'd be a completely empty shirt (and I think you'd agree his involvements have not always been positive, particularly his decision making over when to kick)
Farrell's running game from 12 has improved year on year, now it's simply mostly poor, rather than non-existent. By work rate I mean the fact he's one of those that's normally in and around the ball, chasing back to cover breaks, chasing kicks etc. The Rees Zammit try (where he outpaces May) is an obvious example of how hard he works, and he does that all through a game. It's not just number of tackles, but getting in into the defensive line and onside from breaks etc.
You can see from my post history that I'm not a big Farrell fan, but he has improved in the 12 shirt year on year, and he's not a bad international 12 now. I still don't love seeing him there by any means, but at the same time, and the reason for my first post, him being out doesn't instantly make us a stronger team.
apols, missed it.
Ojomoh and Kelly look like the ones for the future, Eddie's clearly decided they're not for the now after having a quick look in the summer.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:15 pmapols, missed it.
You'll maybe get a look at him on Friday night, mainly wandering back towards our ingoal after we concede another try, but suspect Cam Redpath will get the nod.
eta: when do 6N squad members get pilfered from club squads? Has Redpath already gone? In which case it'll presumably be Ojomoh.
British and Irish Lions star lock Jonny Hill will likely be unavailable for England for the opening couple of rounds of the 2022 Guinness Six Nations, Exeter Chiefs director of rugby Rob Baxter has confirmed.
Hill, 27, has not played for Chiefs since the club’s 14-12 defeat to Harlequins on January 8 but was named as part of Eddie Jones' 36-man squad to prepare for the upcoming international tournament.
England are currently into their third day of a five-day training camp in Brighton, with clubmates Jack Nowell, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Sam Simmonds and Henry Slade also in the squad.
However today, speaking in his midweek press conference ahead of Chiefs facing London Irish on Saturday in the Gallagher Premiership, Baxter confirmed Hill has been wearing a space boot in recent weeks to help treat a stress fracture in his lower leg and will likely miss the start of the Six Nations.
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:55 amYou've basically just repeated yourself. Northmore has been excellent for some time, why does he look like one of those? He's been a huge player for the champion team, has scored heaps of tries and has made breaks for fun while also being a good gainline option and a big body. He's not a flawless player, I worry about his tackling and his hands can sometimes let him down, but he's absolutely deserved a call-up. There's a reason why people were talking up the Cardiff Met thing, it's not just because of Dombrandt - Northmore picks great lines and is a high impact player.
Any coach would've wanted to have a look at him by now. Particularly given the flexibility he's shown by playing 12 and 14 as well as 13.
Oh, I see. That's not what I thought you were saying (i.e. that he shouldn't have been called up and was miles off the standard). Totally on board with people thinking he might not be there as a 12 - I'm suggesting it as an option based purely on what's in the squad at the moment, and he definitely deserved the squad callup on extended form + talent.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:55 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 11:55 amYou've basically just repeated yourself. Northmore has been excellent for some time, why does he look like one of those? He's been a huge player for the champion team, has scored heaps of tries and has made breaks for fun while also being a good gainline option and a big body. He's not a flawless player, I worry about his tackling and his hands can sometimes let him down, but he's absolutely deserved a call-up. There's a reason why people were talking up the Cardiff Met thing, it's not just because of Dombrandt - Northmore picks great lines and is a high impact player.
Any coach would've wanted to have a look at him by now. Particularly given the flexibility he's shown by playing 12 and 14 as well as 13.
At 13 or wing of have few doubts he'd be ready. At 12? No, he's not ready. And for what's it's worth I'm an ex-12 who went to South Glam Institute.
Lawes at lock if his head's OK, then.SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:44 pm Jonny Hill out of 1st 6N match at least.British and Irish Lions star lock Jonny Hill will likely be unavailable for England for the opening couple of rounds of the 2022 Guinness Six Nations, Exeter Chiefs director of rugby Rob Baxter has confirmed.
Hill, 27, has not played for Chiefs since the club’s 14-12 defeat to Harlequins on January 8 but was named as part of Eddie Jones' 36-man squad to prepare for the upcoming international tournament.
England are currently into their third day of a five-day training camp in Brighton, with clubmates Jack Nowell, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Sam Simmonds and Henry Slade also in the squad.
However today, speaking in his midweek press conference ahead of Chiefs facing London Irish on Saturday in the Gallagher Premiership, Baxter confirmed Hill has been wearing a space boot in recent weeks to help treat a stress fracture in his lower leg and will likely miss the start of the Six Nations.
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:19 pmOh, I see. That's not what I thought you were saying (i.e. that he shouldn't have been called up and was miles off the standard). Totally on board with people thinking he might not be there as a 12 - I'm suggesting it as an option based purely on what's in the squad at the moment, and he definitely deserved the squad callup on extended form + talent.
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:19 pm
Oh, I see. That's not what I thought you were saying (i.e. that he shouldn't have been called up and was miles off the standard). Totally on board with people thinking he might not be there as a 12 - I'm suggesting it as an option based purely on what's in the squad at the moment, and he definitely deserved the squad callup on extended form + talent.
In general yes, but honestly we've seen decent work from him when subbing in for Esterhuizen. Some hard lines angling in towards the ruck - he can be very direct. But I'm not convinced he's the right call here at all, though he's a good bench option.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:37 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:19 pm
Oh, I see. That's not what I thought you were saying (i.e. that he shouldn't have been called up and was miles off the standard). Totally on board with people thinking he might not be there as a 12 - I'm suggesting it as an option based purely on what's in the squad at the moment, and he definitely deserved the squad callup on extended form + talent.
He's a good player and deserves to be in the conversation for England but... 12 is not an easy position to play if you have developed playing instincts as a 13 or in the back-3. It's no surprise that you're more likely to see a 10 shift 1-out than a 13 shift 1-in. 12s naturally tend to run unders lines and 13s naturally tend to run overs lines. It's not easy to change that instinct, especially in heavy traffic where 12s often find themselves, particularly off slow ball.
Mills did come to mind earlier, but I have no idea if my view of him matches reality given how little I've seen of him because of injury.Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:35 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:19 pmOh, I see. That's not what I thought you were saying (i.e. that he shouldn't have been called up and was miles off the standard). Totally on board with people thinking he might not be there as a 12 - I'm suggesting it as an option based purely on what's in the squad at the moment, and he definitely deserved the squad callup on extended form + talent.
It also goes back to my comment I opened with, about us having a lot of good 13s, and trying to shoehorn them in at 12.
Wouldn't it have been nice if we'd lived in a world where Mills wasn't completely injury prone.
In the absence of better I'd say yes. You've got to work with what you have rather than what you wish you had. It's all very well waiting for someone better to come along, but sometimes they don't and you have to maximise the available resource.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:49 pmMills did come to mind earlier, but I have no idea if my view of him matches reality given how little I've seen of him because of injury.Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:35 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:19 pmOh, I see. That's not what I thought you were saying (i.e. that he shouldn't have been called up and was miles off the standard). Totally on board with people thinking he might not be there as a 12 - I'm suggesting it as an option based purely on what's in the squad at the moment, and he definitely deserved the squad callup on extended form + talent.
It also goes back to my comment I opened with, about us having a lot of good 13s, and trying to shoehorn them in at 12.
Wouldn't it have been nice if we'd lived in a world where Mills wasn't completely injury prone.
Are we asking too much? Would a Devoto-like player be just fine? Just someone who knows the position well, is decently physical, and can do a job? IMO Atkinson is the closest to that in the squad, but I'm leaning towards him because I'm sure Smith works better with a lump outside him rather than a ~game controller~
Mills was genuinely good. Think Devoto is another missed opportunity, but he just wasn't getting the gametime in his early seasons with Exeter it felt like. Wish he'd come to Wasps!JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:49 pmMills did come to mind earlier, but I have no idea if my view of him matches reality given how little I've seen of him because of injury.Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:35 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:19 pmOh, I see. That's not what I thought you were saying (i.e. that he shouldn't have been called up and was miles off the standard). Totally on board with people thinking he might not be there as a 12 - I'm suggesting it as an option based purely on what's in the squad at the moment, and he definitely deserved the squad callup on extended form + talent.
It also goes back to my comment I opened with, about us having a lot of good 13s, and trying to shoehorn them in at 12.
Wouldn't it have been nice if we'd lived in a world where Mills wasn't completely injury prone.
Are we asking too much? Would a Devoto-like player be just fine? Just someone who knows the position well, is decently physical, and can do a job? IMO Atkinson is the closest to that in the squad, but I'm leaning towards him because I'm sure Smith works better with a lump outside him rather than a ~game controller~
Devoto's had a fair bit of bad luck with selections - he left Bath as Mike Ford blew the budget on Kyle Eastmond as preferred IC (to be fair, Eastmond was electric for a season or two under that system) and then he went to Exeter where he never seemed to get a run. Eastmond and Ford then leave/are vigorously invited to leave Bath.Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:58 pmMills was genuinely good. Think Devoto is another missed opportunity, but he just wasn't getting the gametime in his early seasons with Exeter it felt like. Wish he'd come to Wasps!JM2K6 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:49 pmMills did come to mind earlier, but I have no idea if my view of him matches reality given how little I've seen of him because of injury.
Are we asking too much? Would a Devoto-like player be just fine? Just someone who knows the position well, is decently physical, and can do a job? IMO Atkinson is the closest to that in the squad, but I'm leaning towards him because I'm sure Smith works better with a lump outside him rather than a ~game controller~
Atkinson just looked too far off the pace when we saw him in the international game (at least in my mind). Not able to do what he normally does for Glaws, because everything was happening just that little bit faster.
Stewart has pace. Not May/Zammit pace, but he's deceptively fast with those long legs. It's like some locks, once they get going, they're rapid. I remember Wasps releasing a snippet of info that Myall had one of the best 100m times in a side with Varndell, Wade and Simpson in.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:09 pm
I agree with your Atkinson performance review. He almost looked epheremal to the action going on around him. And he did look slow. Pace is always the thing that finds players out in test rugby, they either have it or they don't although you can get away with it a bit at 12 but not by much (see Farrell). I not convinced that Stewart is quick enough either but we'll see soon enough I guess.
inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:06 pm Even accepting some degree of propensity for brain farts, am I alone in thinking Twelvetrees was sent to pasture a bit too soon?
Raggs wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:15 pmStewart has pace. Not May/Zammit pace, but he's deceptively fast with those long legs. It's like some locks, once they get going, they're rapid. I remember Wasps releasing a snippet of info that Myall had one of the best 100m times in a side with Varndell, Wade and Simpson in.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:09 pm
I agree with your Atkinson performance review. He almost looked epheremal to the action going on around him. And he did look slow. Pace is always the thing that finds players out in test rugby, they either have it or they don't although you can get away with it a bit at 12 but not by much (see Farrell). I not convinced that Stewart is quick enough either but we'll see soon enough I guess.
Memory's not what it was, but I vaguely recall him being subbed on against ABs at twickenham (the game where Brad Barrett scored after Smith dived out of line to take Tuilagi) and he just smashed everyone and everything.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:15 pminactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:06 pm Even accepting some degree of propensity for brain farts, am I alone in thinking Twelvetrees was sent to pasture a bit too soon?
No chance, Twelvetrees England career ended with this...
He might have got a few more caps but he's so passive in defence.
You haven't misremembered, he was good in defence. He had the misfortune of being run over, which happens to everyone at some point, in an international and in front of the try line which has consequently developed a bit of a narrative.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:51 pmMemory's not what it was, but I vaguely recall him being subbed on against ABs at twickenham (the game where Brad Barrett scored after Smith dived out of line to take Tuilagi) and he just smashed everyone and everything.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:15 pminactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:06 pm Even accepting some degree of propensity for brain farts, am I alone in thinking Twelvetrees was sent to pasture a bit too soon?
No chance, Twelvetrees England career ended with this...
He might have got a few more caps but he's so passive in defence.
This may not be entirely accurate, memory like sieve combined with booze, but I've never previously characterised Twelvetrees as a weak defender.
Without pointing fingers or poking fun, isn't that exactly what happened to Lozowski?sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:48 pmYou haven't misremembered, he was good in defence. He had the misfortune of being run over, which happens to everyone at some point, in an international and in front of the try line which has consequently developed a bit of a narrative.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:51 pmMemory's not what it was, but I vaguely recall him being subbed on against ABs at twickenham (the game where Brad Barrett scored after Smith dived out of line to take Tuilagi) and he just smashed everyone and everything.
This may not be entirely accurate, memory like sieve combined with booze, but I've never previously characterised Twelvetrees as a weak defender.
Pretty much iirc. It's almost like the number 12 channel gets run at a lot and every now and then, through sheer probablity, the player occupying it is going to make a bad/non-effective tackle and/or get run over and perhaps those players shouldn't be too harshly treated afterwards...inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:06 pmWithout pointing fingers or poking fun, isn't that exactly what happened to Lozowski?sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 3:48 pmYou haven't misremembered, he was good in defence. He had the misfortune of being run over, which happens to everyone at some point, in an international and in front of the try line which has consequently developed a bit of a narrative.inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:51 pm
Memory's not what it was, but I vaguely recall him being subbed on against ABs at twickenham (the game where Brad Barrett scored after Smith dived out of line to take Tuilagi) and he just smashed everyone and everything.
This may not be entirely accurate, memory like sieve combined with booze, but I've never previously characterised Twelvetrees as a weak defender.
eta: Think it happened to Anthony Allen as well.
Italy talking to Lozowski (Italian Granny) as well as Lynagh and Odogwu
Italy head coach Kieran Crowley says he has spoken directly with Harlequins wing Louis Lynagh and Saracens fly-half Alex Lozowski about their availability for the Azzurri. The New Zealander also confirmed there had been contact with Wasps wing Paolo Odogwu, whose father is of Italian descent, on the same subject.
I thought I'd referenced Twelvetrees actually putting in an impressive defensive shift in an England shirt.
inactionman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:34 pmI thought I'd referenced Twelvetrees actually putting in an impressive defensive shift in an England shirt.
His defensive 'crime' seems to be mucking up one tackle (noting that this isn't generally seen as the reason for his future non-selection) - which Lozowski has also done.
SaintK wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:04 pmItaly talking to Lozowski (Italian Granny) as well as Lynagh and OdogwuItaly head coach Kieran Crowley says he has spoken directly with Harlequins wing Louis Lynagh and Saracens fly-half Alex Lozowski about their availability for the Azzurri. The New Zealander also confirmed there had been contact with Wasps wing Paolo Odogwu, whose father is of Italian descent, on the same subject.