NPR

Fuck me, those Telegraph ratings in particular are dreadful. Daly started off brilliantly? Youngs obviously rated too high, but so is Itoje, I thought that was one of his poorer games. Sam Simmonds was among the worst players on the pitch? Jesus.

What I don't understand is that Jones has been pretty ruthless in exiling players he feels are either not up to it or too old, yet he has this massive blind spot with Youngs.

I have already seen the comments that "He made the try and broke the line" but fuck me, if your argument is that he managed to execute two examples of the core skills the most basic of Test scrum halves could be expected to perform against the mountain of rubbish for the rest of the match, then it's no wonder Jones is secure in continuing to select him.

Youngs gets more stick than he deserves on here as at times he can't do much if the presentation of the ball is shite or the clear out is poor but what made Youngs good was he had an electric break and was a threat with ball in hand which isn't true anymore. We do need to replace him and there are plenty of options.

Which premiership teams would Young's be the starting 9 in? Not quins, not brizz, not sale, not pests, not sarries, not glass and arguably he shouldn't be at Leicester give van poortfliets abilities. We've got the most promising generation of 9s since the late nineties and are playing a bloke who is the very definition of military medium.

Eddie is a spoofer, he's good at turning failing teams round in the short term, and getting occasional big wins, but tactically he's hugely limited and his vanity and stubbornness are an anchor on any prospect of long term progress.

Jones said in his post-match interview that England weren't 'clinical' enough. This is barely even veiled code anymore. As an England fan, I feel like I'm grieving when Jones continues to pick Youngs but I'm resigned to it, like a beaten dog.

Forget the next RWC. We probably need a bloke like Hansen, a genuine no.1 with genuine pedigree and used to working with large player depth. All Jones's best results are when he's a no.2 and/or he's working with a shallow pool of players. His hubris dominates his thinking now. He's just getting in the way of himself and England are screwed until he leaves.

petej wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:39 pm Youngs gets more stick than he deserves on here as at times he can't do much if the presentation of the ball is shite or the clear out is poor but what made Youngs good was he had an electric break and was a threat with ball in hand which isn't true anymore. We do need to replace him and there are plenty of options.

He's got 114 England caps. One hundred and fourteen.

He's a player who wouldn't get anywhere near that total at every other Tier1 team and most of the Tier2 sides. He's been shite for years, even since before the 2015 RWC he was making basic errors. 7 years later he's still here. Think of all the great players in the Youngs era who won't get near 50 caps let alone more than 100. He's like a shining beacon of England mediocrity, low ambition and resignation. I'm sure Ben Youngs the man is a lovely fella but I loathe seeing his name on the England teamsheet.

Brazil wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:42 pm Which premiership teams would Young's be the starting 9 in? Not quins, not brizz, not sale, not pests, not sarries, not glass and arguably he shouldn't be at Leicester give van poortfliets abilities. We've got the most promising generation of 9s since the late nineties and are playing a bloke who is the very definition of military medium.

Eddie is a spoofer, he's good at turning failing teams round in the short term, and getting occasional big wins, but tactically he's hugely limited and his vanity and stubbornness are an anchor on any prospect of long term progress.

Yep - it's so depressing when we know that there's talent available that could help us develop an excellent team. And we're doomed to more of the same until after the World Cup. Some of us are getting old - we can't wait forever

Eddie Jones and Ben Youngs can both fuck off, and when they get there, fuck off some more, and keep fucking off until there is no further they can fuck off to.

Good to see that one missed tackle (from six attempts) where he was turned inside out by a quality stepper has turned into "a defensive performance to forget" for Marchant, who was "horribly exposed" by his opposite number

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:50 pm

petej wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:39 pm Youngs gets more stick than he deserves on here as at times he can't do much if the presentation of the ball is shite or the clear out is poor but what made Youngs good was he had an electric break and was a threat with ball in hand which isn't true anymore. We do need to replace him and there are plenty of options.

He's got 114 England caps. One hundred and fourteen.

He's a player who wouldn't get anywhere near that total at every other Tier1 team and most of the Tier2 sides. He's been shite for years, even since before the 2015 RWC he was making basic errors. 7 years later he's still here. Think of all the great players in the Youngs era who won't get near 50 caps let alone more than 100. He's like a shining beacon of England mediocrity, low ambition and resignation. I'm sure Ben Youngs the man is a lovely fella but I loathe seeing his name on the England teamsheet.

An interesting point is the number of caps. Youngs started early but to amass that many he has to be lucky with injuries. How many experienced rugby players are actually dropped? How much player replacement is due to injury and then never getting selected again? Youngs and Farrell have very rarely been unavailable due to injury.

Torygraph rankings



Ben Youngs

Looked rejuvenated, with his first half break the first real moment of quality shown by the visitors, Slick service and flawless decision-making. 8

The highest ranked players were on 9, Smith Graham and Finn

I have given up on any England team that has Ben Youngs on the team sheet, it is as simple as that.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:00 pm Good to see that one missed tackle (from six attempts) where he was turned inside out by a quality stepper has turned into "a defensive performance to forget" for Marchant, who was "horribly exposed" by his opposite number

Always better to be so slow you can't get near someone or missing the man so completely by charging out the line then put in one big tackle.

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:03 pm Torygraph rankings



Ben Youngs

Looked rejuvenated, with his first half break the first real moment of quality shown by the visitors, Slick service and flawless decision-making. 8

The highest ranked players were on 9, Smith Graham and Finn

Yeah we know. Now fuck off, this is the English thread.

That's how it goes isn't it?

ASMO wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:04 pm I have given up on any England team that has Ben Youngs on the team sheet, it is as simple as that.

I have to admit that I was only really watching one side, it didn't strike me at the time that Youngs was particularly bad or slow but it's an almost universal complaint from England fans.
I'll look for it when I watch it again

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:05 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:03 pm Torygraph rankings



Ben Youngs

Looked rejuvenated, with his first half break the first real moment of quality shown by the visitors, Slick service and flawless decision-making. 8

The highest ranked players were on 9, Smith Graham and Finn

Yeah we know. Now fuck off, this is the English thread.

That's how it goes isn't it?

In answer to a display of bad behaviour, yes.

Not to rugby questions or points, I would have thought.

petej wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:01 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:50 pm

petej wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:39 pm Youngs gets more stick than he deserves on here as at times he can't do much if the presentation of the ball is shite or the clear out is poor but what made Youngs good was he had an electric break and was a threat with ball in hand which isn't true anymore. We do need to replace him and there are plenty of options.

He's got 114 England caps. One hundred and fourteen.

He's a player who wouldn't get anywhere near that total at every other Tier1 team and most of the Tier2 sides. He's been shite for years, even since before the 2015 RWC he was making basic errors. 7 years later he's still here. Think of all the great players in the Youngs era who won't get near 50 caps let alone more than 100. He's like a shining beacon of England mediocrity, low ambition and resignation. I'm sure Ben Youngs the man is a lovely fella but I loathe seeing his name on the England teamsheet.

An interesting point is the number of caps. Youngs started early but to amass that many he has to be lucky with injuries. How many experienced rugby players are actually dropped? How much player replacement is due to injury and then never getting selected again? Youngs and Farrell have very rarely been unavailable due to injury.

The very best version of Ben Youngs is good enough to play for England but even that version, the very best, even just a brilliant 5-minute spell, the Ben Youngs in that brilliant 5-minute spell during his best ever game is still not as good, in fact nowhere near as good, as the best scrumhalves are in his timeline on an average day.

He's never been a worldy. And to win 114 caps you have to be a worldy. In fact, you have to be one of the best of all time. It embarrasses me that England's most capped back is so utterly average.

Display of bad behaviour

Oh, that's tickled me.



Oh yes, Youngs is shit etc etc

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:12 pm

petej wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:01 pm

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:50 pm



He's got 114 England caps. One hundred and fourteen.

He's a player who wouldn't get anywhere near that total at every other Tier1 team and most of the Tier2 sides. He's been shite for years, even since before the 2015 RWC he was making basic errors. 7 years later he's still here. Think of all the great players in the Youngs era who won't get near 50 caps let alone more than 100. He's like a shining beacon of England mediocrity, low ambition and resignation. I'm sure Ben Youngs the man is a lovely fella but I loathe seeing his name on the England teamsheet.

An interesting point is the number of caps. Youngs started early but to amass that many he has to be lucky with injuries. How many experienced rugby players are actually dropped? How much player replacement is due to injury and then never getting selected again? Youngs and Farrell have very rarely been unavailable due to injury.

The very best version of Ben Youngs is good enough to play for England but even that version, the very best, even just a brilliant 5-minute spell, the Ben Youngs in that brilliant 5-minute spell during his best ever game is still not as good, in fact nowhere near as good, as the best scrumhalves are in his timeline on an average day.

He's never been a worldy. And to win 114 caps you have to be a worldy. In fact, you have to be one of the best of all time. It embarrasses me that England's most capped back is so utterly average.

He aspires to be average, he hasnt reached those dizzy heights in years

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:07 pm

ASMO wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:04 pm I have given up on any England team that has Ben Youngs on the team sheet, it is as simple as that.

I have to admit that I was only really watching one side, it didn't strike me at the time that Youngs was particularly bad or slow but it's an almost universal complaint from England fans.
I'll look for it when I watch it again

He certainly wasn't at his worst today, but nor was he clearing the ball anywhere near as quickly as he needs to even when it was freely available. Getting snagged behind the maul in the second half was a particularly good example of him taking his sweet time as if a high pressure test match wasn't going on around him. A lack of urgency due to a lack of pressure on his position. He wasn't perfect in the earlier part of Jones' reign, but he did have Danny Care breathing down his neck and that seemed to focus him a bit more.

If he would occasionally make a break his habit of picking the ball up and running sideways a few paces with it wouldn't matter, but teams know that's not a threat and can just fan out.

He'll tap and go against Italy to score a try and that'll secure his shirt until 2027.

Kawazaki wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:05 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:03 pm Torygraph rankings



Ben Youngs

Looked rejuvenated, with his first half break the first real moment of quality shown by the visitors, Slick service and flawless decision-making. 8

The highest ranked players were on 9, Smith Graham and Finn

Yeah we know. Now fuck off, this is the English thread.

That's how it goes isn't it?

No, that's how it was on PR. Here, nobody bothers trolling the national threads and discussion is welcome. Tichtheid isn't being a dick.

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:14 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:07 pm

ASMO wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:04 pm I have given up on any England team that has Ben Youngs on the team sheet, it is as simple as that.

I have to admit that I was only really watching one side, it didn't strike me at the time that Youngs was particularly bad or slow but it's an almost universal complaint from England fans.
I'll look for it when I watch it again

He certainly wasn't at his worst today, but nor was he clearing the ball anywhere near as quickly as he needs to even when it was freely available. Getting snagged behind the maul in the second half was a particularly good example of him taking his sweet time as if a high pressure test match wasn't going on around him. A lack of urgency due to a lack of pressure on his position. He wasn't perfect in the earlier part of Jones' reign, but he did have Danny Care breathing down his neck and that seemed to focus him a bit more.

If he would occasionally make a break his habit of picking the ball up and running sideways a few paces with it wouldn't matter, but teams know that's not a threat and can just fan out.

He'll tap and go against Italy to score a try and that'll secure his shirt until 2027.

His kicking was fucking dreadful

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:16 pm

sockwithaticket wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:14 pm

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:07 pm

I have to admit that I was only really watching one side, it didn't strike me at the time that Youngs was particularly bad or slow but it's an almost universal complaint from England fans.
I'll look for it when I watch it again

He certainly wasn't at his worst today, but nor was he clearing the ball anywhere near as quickly as he needs to even when it was freely available. Getting snagged behind the maul in the second half was a particularly good example of him taking his sweet time as if a high pressure test match wasn't going on around him. A lack of urgency due to a lack of pressure on his position. He wasn't perfect in the earlier part of Jones' reign, but he did have Danny Care breathing down his neck and that seemed to focus him a bit more.

If he would occasionally make a break his habit of picking the ball up and running sideways a few paces with it wouldn't matter, but teams know that's not a threat and can just fan out.

He'll tap and go against Italy to score a try and that'll secure his shirt until 2027.

His kicking was fucking dreadful

Perhaps Jones has told him to do it and the obedience to the game plan is part of the reason he keeps getting selected.

"Make sure your box kicks are off target" is a hell of a game plan

Tichtheid wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:07 pm

ASMO wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:04 pm I have given up on any England team that has Ben Youngs on the team sheet, it is as simple as that.

I have to admit that I was only really watching one side, it didn't strike me at the time that Youngs was particularly bad or slow but it's an almost universal complaint from England fans.
I'll look for it when I watch it again

I don't normally watch the service myself, more interested in what's going on away from the breakdown. But there was one moment where I noticed Youngs passing to Smith and then Smith immediately spinning wide, and couldn't help but notice a MASSIVE difference in the speed of the two.

The other criticism I see often is taking an extra second or two to get to the breakdown and/or dithering over the ball rather than really going after it to get it out/away quickly like, say, Aaron Smith, or Dupont, or the wee South Africans do.

We would have won if LCD had done anything bar what he did on the crossfield kick. We could have won had we been given the scrum pen we earned thrice over after time expired but no doubt would have cocked up the lineout anyway.

Essentially that is as good a performance as we can have with Youngs at the helm against a competent opposition. His performance today verged on the farcical from the usual just shit. Beyond that we did OK, discipline remains average but still, any other English Prem 9 we win, LCD doesn’t fuck up we win. Struggling to be too upset

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:16 pm We would have won if LCD had done anything bar what he did on the crossfield kick. We could have won had we been given the scrum pen we earned thrice over after time expired but no doubt would have cocked up the lineout anyway.

Essentially that is as good a performance as we can have with Youngs at the helm against a competent opposition. His performance today verged on the farcical from the usual just shit. Beyond that we did OK, discipline remains average but still, any other English Prem 9 we win, LCD doesn’t fuck up we win. Struggling to be too upset

Not at all bothered by the plan to kick away all good attacking ball by default?

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:16 pm We would have won if LCD had done anything bar what he did on the crossfield kick. We could have won had we been given the scrum pen we earned thrice over after time expired but no doubt would have cocked up the lineout anyway.

Essentially that is as good a performance as we can have with Youngs at the helm against a competent opposition. His performance today verged on the farcical from the usual just shit. Beyond that we did OK, discipline remains average but still, any other English Prem 9 we win, LCD doesn’t fuck up we win. Struggling to be too upset

We probably also would've won if our outside backs weren't under instruction to kick the damned ball away every time we found some space.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:23 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:16 pm We would have won if LCD had done anything bar what he did on the crossfield kick. We could have won had we been given the scrum pen we earned thrice over after time expired but no doubt would have cocked up the lineout anyway.

Essentially that is as good a performance as we can have with Youngs at the helm against a competent opposition. His performance today verged on the farcical from the usual just shit. Beyond that we did OK, discipline remains average but still, any other English Prem 9 we win, LCD doesn’t fuck up we win. Struggling to be too upset

Not at all bothered by the plan to kick away all good attacking ball by default?

More so by deliberately volleyballing a ball into touch that could have been caught tbh. Game of fine margins etc

We attacked a lot and went nowhere, kicking became basically inevitable. Think it’s fair to give Scotland credit for that.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:06 pm "Make sure your box kicks are off target" is a hell of a game plan

I thought just kick it aimlessly forward was the main England tactic.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:26 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:23 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:16 pm We would have won if LCD had done anything bar what he did on the crossfield kick. We could have won had we been given the scrum pen we earned thrice over after time expired but no doubt would have cocked up the lineout anyway.

Essentially that is as good a performance as we can have with Youngs at the helm against a competent opposition. His performance today verged on the farcical from the usual just shit. Beyond that we did OK, discipline remains average but still, any other English Prem 9 we win, LCD doesn’t fuck up we win. Struggling to be too upset

Not at all bothered by the plan to kick away all good attacking ball by default?

More so by deliberately volleyballing a ball into touch that could have been caught tbh. Game of fine margins etc

We attacked a lot and went nowhere, kicking became basically inevitable. Think it’s fair to give Scotland credit for that.

I think we watched a different game. England repeatedly kicked the ball away in situations where they were on the front foot and had created space.

Yeah LCD fucked up, but that can happen. A side sent out to kick for pressure to the exclusion of everything else? That's a systemic problem. Far more worrying.

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:29 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:26 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:23 pm

Not at all bothered by the plan to kick away all good attacking ball by default?

More so by deliberately volleyballing a ball into touch that could have been caught tbh. Game of fine margins etc

We attacked a lot and went nowhere, kicking became basically inevitable. Think it’s fair to give Scotland credit for that.

I think we watched a different game. England repeatedly kicked the ball away in situations where they were on the front foot and had created space.

Yeah LCD fucked up, but that can happen. A side sent out to kick for pressure to the exclusion of everything else? That's a systemic problem. Far more worrying.

What LCD did is far more systemic of English rugby than anything else - constant shite discipline throughout our pro set up. Every week a new way of giving away pens. Not sure kicking to the exclusion of all else is a fair reflection of today when Scotland shut down any attacking moves, left us with limited options which we played well which was then given away in yet another bout of shit discipline and a lack of composure.

Scotland's tackle % was in the high 90s. You don't generally win games when your opposition puts out numbers like that.

Credit to them for the effective defence. However, that cant generally be achieved unless your attack is static, you're not winning collisions and you're not taking the odd risk in wide channels. A tight win here would just have been painting over the cracks.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:34 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:29 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:26 pm

More so by deliberately volleyballing a ball into touch that could have been caught tbh. Game of fine margins etc

We attacked a lot and went nowhere, kicking became basically inevitable. Think it’s fair to give Scotland credit for that.

I think we watched a different game. England repeatedly kicked the ball away in situations where they were on the front foot and had created space.

Yeah LCD fucked up, but that can happen. A side sent out to kick for pressure to the exclusion of everything else? That's a systemic problem. Far more worrying.

What LCD did is far more systemic of English rugby than anything else - constant shite discipline throughout our pro set up. Every week a new way of giving away pens. Not sure kicking to the exclusion of all else is a fair reflection of today when Scotland shut down any attacking moves, left us with limited options which we played well which was then given away in yet another bout of shit discipline and a lack of composure.

Genuinely cannot agree that's what happened. I didn't imagine Daly in space twice kicking for the corner, or LCD doing the same, or Smith doing the same, or Slade doing the same, or Malins doing the same. Being left with limited options is not what was happening - those were playing who had found time and space in the wider channels.

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:34 pm

JM2K6 wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:29 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:26 pm

More so by deliberately volleyballing a ball into touch that could have been caught tbh. Game of fine margins etc

We attacked a lot and went nowhere, kicking became basically inevitable. Think it’s fair to give Scotland credit for that.

I think we watched a different game. England repeatedly kicked the ball away in situations where they were on the front foot and had created space.

Yeah LCD fucked up, but that can happen. A side sent out to kick for pressure to the exclusion of everything else? That's a systemic problem. Far more worrying.

What LCD did is far more systemic of English rugby than anything else - constant shite discipline throughout our pro set up. Every week a new way of giving away pens. Not sure kicking to the exclusion of all else is a fair reflection of today when Scotland shut down any attacking moves, left us with limited options which we played well which was then given away in yet another bout of shit discipline and a lack of composure.

Oh rubbish. LCD had a brainfart when he was caught out in an unusual position. There's nothing systematic about that.

I don't blame LCD to be honest, why was he the only person out there in the first place? England had absolutely no game plan, was it fast and open, kick and chase? who the fuck knows, for sure the players didn't. The first 20 mins of that game told you everything you need to know about that team, complete dominance in possession and territory and zero points scored. Youngs was a complete waste of a shirt, Smith might as well not have been on the pitch. The center combination simply didnt work, no connection, no threat, kicking when there were overlaps, it was awful, back 3 was ok, they worked with what they had (which wasnt a lot), if the ball they get is so slow, their options become limited. Leadership on the field was non existant, Curry, love him as a player, i do not think he is captain material. Why bring Dombrant on as a flanker, i really dont understand the thinking here, why send home Barbery who is a fucking menace to the opposition. Will Stuart, i really dont think he is international quality, Joe Heyes is a better player and is you are seriously building for the future, the direction we should be going. I honestly believe Eddies ego now is killing this team, he refuses to believe anyone might know better than him, or has different ideas that might work, it is his way or no way.

Watching the penalty try again and what’s depressing is how easy it was. Scotland essentially tried two set piece moves in the match and cut us apart on both.
That game was all but won and should have been closed out.

Rumours of Eddie about to go after the ref about the scrums at the end. Let’s be clear that O’Keefe made what was a howler in a real case of lost bottle, but games are decided on the pitch and I’m bored of refs being wheeled out for apologies. If he does a Rassie he should go.

Happyhooker wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:03 am
Oh rubbish. LCD had a brainfart when he was caught out in an unusual position. There's nothing systematic about that.

Is brainfart an excuse? Marler, Sinckler, Genge etc. Eng seem to have front row players with lots of playing ability and too little in the top 2 inches when composure is needed.

It's been obvious to many that there is something very wrong with Eddie Jones for a long time now. There are psychological flaws that manifest themselves over long and short time-frames. I've been reading some of his most recent book, written in the period after RWC19 and it's full of revisionism. Not really surprising but there is one thing that springs out at you, Jones is obsessed with money and the trappings of wealth as much as anything else. He has his fingers in all sorts of commercial pies, including of course the book I was reading. This makes him a massive hypocrite along with everything else he is given his criticism of any player who he thinks doesn't apply all of their energy just to rugby and nothing else outside the sport (and tennis players as well).

I've said for a while now that Jones simply doesn't have the best interests of English rugby in mind. It's all about feeding the Eddie ego. The RFU are like a cuckold husband while he's hanging out the back of the England team.

I’d say it’s 50:50 that Smith gets benched next week for a try fest romp against Italy with a pairing of Youngs and Ford. It’s the kind of thing he’d do.