It literally does not matter what he was like at that age. Kids good enough to go on to be professional sportsmen are likely to dominate in any position, and often get put in the backs as a result with great success. It doesn't mean it was a bad idea for him to switch. He might well have ended up a dogshit 12 - we have no way to tell. I very much doubt Sinckler would be starting for England as a 10 or 15 if he hadn't moved...
There are loads of very very good backs playing rugby who are eligible for England. There are not many who can carry the ball up like Barbeary. To be honest, I thought you were more enlightened than the typical morons you get in junior rugby who think, 'he's a big lump, lets chuck him in the front-row'.
p.s educate yourself and watch those videos.
I don't know what I'm expected to learn beyond he tore it up amongst literal children but sure, I'll take a look. Surely we've both seen enough evidence of players who succeed in the backs at that age due to overwhelmingly superior physicality who are found out in senior rugby?
Like, I don't know the reasons for his move, just like I don't know the reasons for Sinckler's move. Maybe it was just "stick the big kid in the pack". Maybe it was more "your passing and general handling are shit, you have very little vision, but you've enormous potential on the carry and a big engine - you should consider being a forward". Tom Youngs was an England U20s centre and ended up a front row - and frankly having seen him in the U20s it was pretty obviously the right call, despite his 'success' at age grade level.
Both Wasps and England saw him as a forward, not a centre. Now, it's possible everyone fucked up. Or it's possible he just didn't have the skillset required for centre.
Started in the front row when u16, playing in the u18s at school.
To help develop his skills he was moved to number 8. In his final year he was moved to centre to develop even more skills (though he still threw in for school games).
His England age grade stuff was all at hooker, and he played hooker in some mens games (not prem but lower level).
He's an extremely skillful forward, no arguments there, but what's wrong with him being an exceptionally skillful forward, who also happens to be a wrecking ball carrier wherever, instead of an averagely skilled back, who is a wrecking ball carrier.
Manu Tuilagi is a fairly compelling template for England to look at succession plans. Barbeary would have been in a talent pool of one.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:15 pm
by Niegs
England rugby post this to celebrate Ben Youngs' career and all I can see is a weirdly tiny arm!
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:17 pm
by Stranger
I am optimistic that Kelly will become the player we need ay 12
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:24 pm
by SaintK
Stranger wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 5:17 pm
I am optimistic that Kelly will become the player we need ay 12
Yep, been very impressed with what I've seen of him and Ojomoh as well
Both Wasps and England saw him as a forward, not a centre. Now, it's possible everyone fucked up. Or it's possible he just didn't have the skillset required for centre.
Started in the front row when u16, playing in the u18s at school.
To help develop his skills he was moved to number 8. In his final year he was moved to centre to develop even more skills (though he still threw in for school games).
His England age grade stuff was all at hooker, and he played hooker in some mens games (not prem but lower level).
He's an extremely skillful forward, no arguments there, but what's wrong with him being an exceptionally skillful forward, who also happens to be a wrecking ball carrier wherever, instead of an averagely skilled back, who is a wrecking ball carrier.
Manu Tuilagi is a fairly compelling template for England to look at succession plans. Barbeary would have been in a talent pool of one.
Barbeary has nothing like Manu's pace. Odogwu is probably the closest thing we have at the moment.
Started in the front row when u16, playing in the u18s at school.
To help develop his skills he was moved to number 8. In his final year he was moved to centre to develop even more skills (though he still threw in for school games).
His England age grade stuff was all at hooker, and he played hooker in some mens games (not prem but lower level).
He's an extremely skillful forward, no arguments there, but what's wrong with him being an exceptionally skillful forward, who also happens to be a wrecking ball carrier wherever, instead of an averagely skilled back, who is a wrecking ball carrier.
Manu Tuilagi is a fairly compelling template for England to look at succession plans. Barbeary would have been in a talent pool of one.
Barbeary has nothing like Manu's pace. Odogwu is probably the closest thing we have at the moment.
Pace is not Tuilagi's USP is it. When do you ever see it employed?
There are loads of very very good backs playing rugby who are eligible for England. There are not many who can carry the ball up like Barbeary. To be honest, I thought you were more enlightened than the typical morons you get in junior rugby who think, 'he's a big lump, lets chuck him in the front-row'.
p.s educate yourself and watch those videos.
I don't know what I'm expected to learn beyond he tore it up amongst literal children but sure, I'll take a look. Surely we've both seen enough evidence of players who succeed in the backs at that age due to overwhelmingly superior physicality who are found out in senior rugby?
Like, I don't know the reasons for his move, just like I don't know the reasons for Sinckler's move. Maybe it was just "stick the big kid in the pack". Maybe it was more "your passing and general handling are shit, you have very little vision, but you've enormous potential on the carry and a big engine - you should consider being a forward". Tom Youngs was an England U20s centre and ended up a front row - and frankly having seen him in the U20s it was pretty obviously the right call, despite his 'success' at age grade level.
Those 'literal' children were called his peers.
And? Come on, players develop at different rates, and virtually every top level pro player dominated in whatever position they were in when they were 14-15 years old. That's just how it goes.
Manu Tuilagi is a fairly compelling template for England to look at succession plans. Barbeary would have been in a talent pool of one.
Barbeary has nothing like Manu's pace. Odogwu is probably the closest thing we have at the moment.
Pace is not Tuilagi's USP is it. When do you ever see it employed?
He's done a job on the wing a few times. I can't imagine Barbeary ever being anywhere near quick enough to cope there. Manu'd be on the slow side for a winger, but he's not a slow back, as we've seen plenty of times, and he's in a different speed category entirely to Barbeary.
As for Manu's skill-set, he has the game to be a centre, bar kicking. He's not incapable of putting in (and timing) good passes, he's just a bit of a crowbar due to his physical superiority. And he can pick great lines.
Barbeary has nothing like Manu's pace. Odogwu is probably the closest thing we have at the moment.
Pace is not Tuilagi's USP is it. When do you ever see it employed?
He's done a job on the wing a few times. I can't imagine Barbeary ever being anywhere near quick enough to cope there. Manu'd be on the slow side for a winger, but he's not a slow back, as we've seen plenty of times, and he's in a different speed category entirely to Barbeary.
As for Manu's skill-set, he has the game to be a centre, bar kicking. He's not incapable of putting in (and timing) good passes, he's just a bit of a crowbar due to his physical superiority. And he can pick great lines.
Well how fast is Barbeary? Have you seen him running in open field? Has he trained and conditioned to run fast?
The point you're missing (depressingly) is that he has obvious gifts (he's full of fast twitch fibres) that raised him above his peers as a junior. Those gifts are still raising him above fully professional grown adult peers. He could have developed in his formative years as a centre but instead he was learning to be a hooker and now relearning to be a backrower. Both positions that England already have depth in.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:21 pm
by JM2K6
I've seen Alex Dombrandt absolutely tear it up against kids and look like a runaway freight train, but that doesn't mean I think he should've been a centre even though he has vision and handling skills that Barbeary can only dream of.
And no, I don't think I've ever seen Barbeary show the sort of pace that Manu has. There's enough Wasps fans saying you're wrong on this as well and they'd know better than you or I.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:25 pm
by Raggs
The suggestion that part of Manu's USP isn't his pace and acceleration is completely nuts. The reason he busts so many tackles is that he's going so damn fast when he hits them, combined with his freakish size. Barbeary busts tackles, but often in a more pinball manner, seemingly getting stopped, then magically starting up again, a bit like Picamoles used to. I'm sure he could do a good job in the centres, but to reach the sort of pace that would allow for the breaks Manu creates, he'd almost certainly have to drop a lot of weight. I don't think he could have been a high quality international centre, I do think he can be a high quality international backrow (and could have possibly been hooker).
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:34 pm
by Kawazaki
JM2K6 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 6:21 pm
I've seen Alex Dombrandt absolutely tear it up against kids and look like a runaway freight train, but that doesn't mean I think he should've been a centre even though he has vision and handling skills that Barbeary can only dream of.
And no, I don't think I've ever seen Barbeary show the sort of pace that Manu has. There's enough Wasps fans saying you're wrong on this as well and they'd know better than you or I.
Dombrandt is too heavy to play centre but it's not the worst idea you've ever suggested.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:05 pm
by JM2K6
A whole 2kg heavier than Barbeary, apparently.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:30 pm
by Kawazaki
You do realise that Barbeary eats, trains and conditions to play in the forwards and Tuilagi eats, trains and conditions to play in the backs don't you? It isn't a one size fits all.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:35 pm
by Ovals
Red card for the Welsh 8 - shame, looked like being a really good game.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:43 pm
by Ovals
England rumble over from a line out to make it 15/7
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:55 pm
by Raggs
Looks like Chandler-Smith (think that's right) has an English mother, not sure if that was mentioned before.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 8:17 pm
by JM2K6
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:30 pm
You do realise that Barbeary eats, trains and conditions to play in the forwards and Tuilagi eats, trains and conditions to play in the backs don't you? It isn't a one size fits all.
I'm comparing Dombrandt (who you said was too heavy for the centres) and Barbeary. Keep up.
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:30 pm
You do realise that Barbeary eats, trains and conditions to play in the forwards and Tuilagi eats, trains and conditions to play in the backs don't you? It isn't a one size fits all.
I'm comparing Dombrandt (who you said was too heavy for the centres) and Barbeary. Keep up.
Kawazaki wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:30 pm
You do realise that Barbeary eats, trains and conditions to play in the forwards and Tuilagi eats, trains and conditions to play in the backs don't you? It isn't a one size fits all.
I'm comparing Dombrandt (who you said was too heavy for the centres) and Barbeary. Keep up.
Yes, both of them are forwards.
Keep up.
So you're saying Dombrandt is too heavy for the centres but that doesn't apply to Barbeary?
No fitness regime in the world is going to give Barbeary what he needs to be an international class 12.
I'm comparing Dombrandt (who you said was too heavy for the centres) and Barbeary. Keep up.
Yes, both of them are forwards.
Keep up.
So you're saying Dombrandt is too heavy for the centres but that doesn't apply to Barbeary?
No fitness regime in the world is going to give Barbeary what he needs to be an international class 12.
You wouldn't know would you.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:21 pm
by Lobby
Mods, can we create a special thread for completely pointless arguments with Toga, so that the rest of us can avoid them.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:27 pm
by Kawazaki
Lobby wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:21 pm
Mods, can we create a special thread for completely pointless arguments with Toga, so that the rest of us can avoid them.
Do fuck off.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:50 pm
by Hal Jordan
Danny Care scored his hundredth try for Quins in the away win at Wuss today.
So you're saying Dombrandt is too heavy for the centres but that doesn't apply to Barbeary?
No fitness regime in the world is going to give Barbeary what he needs to be an international class 12.
You wouldn't know would you.
I actually do know this.
He's nowhere near the pace. Wasps did think about it.
His 0-5m is explosive, but not someone who has only twitch fibres.
He's a fucking brute. The wasps set up are upset that he doesn't want to play hooker because they think he'd be awesome there, but he hates it.
He's still probably the most devastating carrier in heavy traffic in the premiership
Brute 6, then? I like them.
<Wistful memories of Big Mo smashing it for Quins in the League winning team back in the day>
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:35 am
by sockwithaticket
Well, checking the scores, it looks like I picked a good evening to be doing something else. Presumably Wasps' recent habit of only really waking up in the final 20 came back to haunt them?
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:36 am
by sockwithaticket
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:50 pm
Danny Care scored his hundredth try for Quins in the away win at Wuss today.
Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:50 pm
Danny Care scored his hundredth try for Quins in the away win at Wuss today.
Hell of a strike ratre for a scrummy.
If he'd been more of a brown noser, it might have been him on 114 caps instead of Youngs.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:09 pm
by Hal Jordan
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 9:00 am
Here we go then, my absolute least favourite day of the year
Ditto. There's something deeply unpleasant about it.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:19 pm
by Dinsdale Piranha
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 9:00 am
Here we go then, my absolute least favourite day of the year
England v Wales 6 nations is the reason I became a Quins season ticket holder.
Some years ago I got tickets for the game through work. Expensive tickets. The match was a festering pile of shite where England, again, blew a decent lead. I realised that I liked watching good rugby and this didn't qualify
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:12 pm
by Lobby
In the absence of Tuilagi, Daly has been chosen to come in at 13, with Marchant on the bench.
I know Marchant hasn’t trained with them this week, but Daly was an empty shirt against Scotland.
Re: The Official English Rugby Thread
Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:16 pm
by SaintK
Lobby wrote: ↑Sat Feb 26, 2022 4:12 pm
In the absence of Tuilagi, Daly has been chosen to come in at 13, with Marchant on the bench.
I know Marchant hasn’t trained with them this week, but Daly was an empty shirt against Scotland.
