The Brexit Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:39 pm
Bimbo free, for the moment...............................
Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:19 pm There still is no breakthrough
Both sides not giving an inch (or 2.54cm)
It does seem they are just going through the motions and have accepted a deal is virtually impossible.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53266902
I'm all for kicking the can down the road, but how would an extension achieve a deal with such entrenched positions?fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:25 pm It was always the most likely outcome; & the Tory fanatics refusal to consider an extension to negotiations; just made it inevitable.
Since the positions are entrenched an extension would simply allow both sides put in the admin & physical infrastructure needed to make no-deal actually work without everything grinding to a halt. Nobody does petty bureaucracy & jobsworth like the Dutch. I can't wait to see the mess at Rotterdam unless every i is dotted & t crossed in every little sub-clause of every regulation on No-deal day.Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:34 pmI'm all for kicking the can down the road, but how would an extension achieve a deal with such entrenched positions?fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:25 pm It was always the most likely outcome; & the Tory fanatics refusal to consider an extension to negotiations; just made it inevitable.
That of course is far too sensible. "Let's threaten no deal, that'll teach 'em"lilyw wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:41 pm
Since the positions are entrenched an extension would simply allow both sides put in the admin & physical infrastructure needed to make no-deal actually work without everything grinding to a halt. Nobody does petty bureaucracy & jobsworth like the Dutch. I can't wait to see the mess at Rotterdam unless every i is dotted & t crossed in every little sub-clause of every regulation on No-deal day.
Trade deals take time.If the UK Government legitimately wants a Trade Deal, then it understands this.lilyw wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:41 pmSince the positions are entrenched an extension would simply allow both sides put in the admin & physical infrastructure needed to make no-deal actually work without everything grinding to a halt. Nobody does petty bureaucracy & jobsworth like the Dutch. I can't wait to see the mess at Rotterdam unless every i is dotted & t crossed in every little sub-clause of every regulation on No-deal day.Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:34 pmI'm all for kicking the can down the road, but how would an extension achieve a deal with such entrenched positions?fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:25 pm It was always the most likely outcome; & the Tory fanatics refusal to consider an extension to negotiations; just made it inevitable.
With respect, from what I understand a trade deal with the EU requires the UK to stick closely to EU rules regarding the level playing field, and access to UK fishing waters. Those are 2 unchangeable things, whatever the timescale.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:49 pmTrade deals take time.If the UK Government legitimately wants a Trade Deal, then it understands this.lilyw wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:41 pmSince the positions are entrenched an extension would simply allow both sides put in the admin & physical infrastructure needed to make no-deal actually work without everything grinding to a halt. Nobody does petty bureaucracy & jobsworth like the Dutch. I can't wait to see the mess at Rotterdam unless every i is dotted & t crossed in every little sub-clause of every regulation on No-deal day.Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:34 pm I'm all for kicking the can down the road, but how would an extension achieve a deal with such entrenched positions?
Bizarrely it seems the Brextreemists decided the best idea was to play a game of chicken with the EU; presumably this is based on the fatuous observation that the EU only makes deals at the last moment.
Watching the UK Politicians/Negotiators try to outwit the much more experienced EU ones, always reminds me of the Coyote trying to outwit the Roadrunner.
Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:56 pmWith respect, from what I understand a trade deal with the EU requires the UK to stick closely to EU rules regarding the level playing field, and access to UK fishing waters. Those are 2 unchangeable things, whatever the timescale.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:49 pmTrade deals take time.If the UK Government legitimately wants a Trade Deal, then it understands this.lilyw wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:41 pm
Since the positions are entrenched an extension would simply allow both sides put in the admin & physical infrastructure needed to make no-deal actually work without everything grinding to a halt. Nobody does petty bureaucracy & jobsworth like the Dutch. I can't wait to see the mess at Rotterdam unless every i is dotted & t crossed in every little sub-clause of every regulation on No-deal day.
Bizarrely it seems the Brextreemists decided the best idea was to play a game of chicken with the EU; presumably this is based on the fatuous observation that the EU only makes deals at the last moment.
Watching the UK Politicians/Negotiators try to outwit the much more experienced EU ones, always reminds me of the Coyote trying to outwit the Roadrunner.
But even if the fishing can be sorted (and as ASMO says it has very little impact on the UK economy, it's just for mad Express readers), how would an extension resolve the level playing field rules?fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:20 pm
The UK knew the level playing field was a red line to any deal; May even had provision for it in her version of the Withdrawal Agreement. The fish stuff is negotiable; & I think is just a way of the EU offering the UK an way of presenting a deal as a win.
Leave supporting politicians started out telling the UK how they had no intention of leaving the Single market; the likes of Gove continues to tell everyone how the UK has no intention of indulging in a race to the bottom; we regularly heard how this was going to be an easy deal, because the UK was already so closely aligned with the EU.Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:37 pmBut even if the fishing can be sorted (and as ASMO says it has very little impact on the UK economy, it's just for mad Express readers), how would an extension resolve the level playing field rules?fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:20 pm
The UK knew the level playing field was a red line to any deal; May even had provision for it in her version of the Withdrawal Agreement. The fish stuff is negotiable; & I think is just a way of the EU offering the UK an way of presenting a deal as a win.
The UK side have said no chance.
Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:01 pm There's no Bimbo
So we should be fine.
You could be right FF, but I don't think Boris could sell "following EU rules" to the party or the country, it would, in the mind of Brexiteers, undermine the whole reason for leaving the EU.
Thanks for the reply though.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/070 ... an-brexit/Phil Hogan today said all outstanding issues (the level playing field, fisheries and the EU Court of Justice) need to be resolved and if we do not resolve them then we will not have a deal.
No Bimbot you say! This is like leaving Salmon on the kitchen floor as the cat starts stretching.Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:01 pm There's no Bimbo
So we should be fine.
You could be right FF, but I don't think Boris could sell "following EU rules" to the party or the country, it would, in the mind of Brexiteers, undermine the whole reason for leaving the EU.
Thanks for the reply though.
I don't know what he got out of it either.tabascoboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:40 pm You could almost admire his tenacity in making several thousand posts on it, with virtually every one a strawman argument...let's hope for no derails here.
The UK already had the rebate; & opted out of the Euro etc; you were already the, "odd man of Europe"; to the considerable resentment of other EU Countries.Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:08 pm Reading RTE website, which is a pretty good, especially Tony Connolly.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/070 ... an-brexit/Phil Hogan today said all outstanding issues (the level playing field, fisheries and the EU Court of Justice) need to be resolved and if we do not resolve them then we will not have a deal.
So despite the headline, there is no chance of a deal.
Even extreme Brexiteers realize now that the EU will under no circumstances give the UK our cake.
Best make solid plans for no deal.
I do wonder had the EU had thrown David Cameron a bone when he begged for one it would have worked out better than this.
He was seeking a limit on free movement. I'm not saying the EU should have, but that perhaps it would have been better than a no deal. The damage will be felt all over Europe. However, a no deal is the choice both sides have made.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:39 pmThe UK already had the rebate; & opted out of the Euro etc; you were already the, "odd man of Europe"; to the considerable resentment of other EU Countries.Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:08 pm Reading RTE website, which is a pretty good, especially Tony Connolly.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/070 ... an-brexit/Phil Hogan today said all outstanding issues (the level playing field, fisheries and the EU Court of Justice) need to be resolved and if we do not resolve them then we will not have a deal.
So despite the headline, there is no chance of a deal.
Even extreme Brexiteers realize now that the EU will under no circumstances give the UK our cake.
Best make solid plans for no deal.
I do wonder had the EU had thrown David Cameron a bone when he begged for one it would have worked out better than this.
Can you tell us what kind of bone, the EU could have provided the UK that would; (1) not cause uproar with the rest of the EU, & (2) Satisfy the unsatisfiable ERG/BNP ?
Not really. What he sought was to restrict access to UK Benefits for EU workers.Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:55 pmHe was seeking a limit on free movement. I'm not saying the EU should have, but that perhaps it would have been better than a no deal. The damage will be felt all over Europe. However, a no deal is the choice both sides have made.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:39 pmThe UK already had the rebate; & opted out of the Euro etc; you were already the, "odd man of Europe"; to the considerable resentment of other EU Countries.Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:08 pm Reading RTE website, which is a pretty good, especially Tony Connolly.
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2020/070 ... an-brexit/
So despite the headline, there is no chance of a deal.
Even extreme Brexiteers realize now that the EU will under no circumstances give the UK our cake.
Best make solid plans for no deal.
I do wonder had the EU had thrown David Cameron a bone when he begged for one it would have worked out better than this.
Can you tell us what kind of bone, the EU could have provided the UK that would; (1) not cause uproar with the rest of the EU, & (2) Satisfy the unsatisfiable ERG/BNP ?
But he ran into the same problem he did three years previously; where the rest of the EU saw him as a self-serving hypocrite; who was now having to deal with the exact problem everyone else saw as inevitable when he pushed for EU Expansion Eastward.What Cameron wanted: The Conservative manifesto said: "We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." It also proposed a "new residency requirement for social housing, so that EU migrants cannot even be considered for a council house unless they have been living in an area for at least four years".
The manifesto also pledged to "end the ability of EU jobseekers to claim any job-seeking benefits at all", adding that "if jobseekers have not found a job within six months, they will be required to leave".
Cameron didn't listen; & the UK didn't do what other Countries did to prevent any possible benefits shopping (which I'm not convinced there ever was anything other than anecdotal evidence of), & then when UKIP started winning By-Elections, in the teeth of a recession; he paniced !December 20 2013 wrote: David Cameron has threatened to veto future enlargements of the EU – including the accession of countries like
Serbia and Albania – unless new rules are agreed to stop “vast migrations”.
Mr Cameron said the EU had to find ways “to slow down access to each other’s labour markets” to avoid a repeat
of the “huge mistake” that saw hundreds of thousands of Poles and Lithuanians come to Britain in the last decade.
Speaking at the end of a two-day summit in Brussels, the prime minister said he also wanted Europe to further
tighten rules on access to benefits, claiming that Germany, Austria and the Netherlands shared his concerns.
His comments are a response to public disquiet – and pressure from the UK Independence party – over the possible
arrival of a new wave of migrants from Bulgaria and Romania when work restrictions are lifted on January 1.
However, his threat to block future EU enlargements will be greeted with a wry smile in other European capitals:
Britain has always been the biggest enthusiast of widening the 28-member bloc to the east.
Because he was a dyed in the wool line toeing Tory drone who was able to turn from a doomsayer on Brexit to a cheerleader for it as Cameron supported Remain and then the Party pivoted to Leave post referendum because that was party policy.Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:49 pmI don't know what he got out of it either.tabascoboy wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:40 pm You could almost admire his tenacity in making several thousand posts on it, with virtually every one a strawman argument...let's hope for no derails here.
I would say he did occasionally make valid arguments against some of the more extreme views, but couldn't just leave it there. Would bang on and on and on.
I hope he doesn't infect this place
Yup, us Romanians are to blame for all of brexit.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:35 pmNot really. What he sought was to restrict access to UK Benefits for EU workers.Longshanks wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:55 pmHe was seeking a limit on free movement. I'm not saying the EU should have, but that perhaps it would have been better than a no deal. The damage will be felt all over Europe. However, a no deal is the choice both sides have made.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 8:39 pm
The UK already had the rebate; & opted out of the Euro etc; you were already the, "odd man of Europe"; to the considerable resentment of other EU Countries.
Can you tell us what kind of bone, the EU could have provided the UK that would; (1) not cause uproar with the rest of the EU, & (2) Satisfy the unsatisfiable ERG/BNP ?
But he ran into the same problem he did three years previously; where the rest of the EU saw him as a self-serving hypocrite; who was now having to deal with the exact problem everyone else saw as inevitable when he pushed for EU Expansion Eastward.What Cameron wanted: The Conservative manifesto said: "We will insist that EU migrants who want to claim tax credits and child benefit must live here and contribute to our country for a minimum of four years." It also proposed a "new residency requirement for social housing, so that EU migrants cannot even be considered for a council house unless they have been living in an area for at least four years".
The manifesto also pledged to "end the ability of EU jobseekers to claim any job-seeking benefits at all", adding that "if jobseekers have not found a job within six months, they will be required to leave".
Cameron didn't listen; & the UK didn't do what other Countries did to prevent any possible benefits shopping (which I'm not convinced there ever was anything other than anecdotal evidence of), & then when UKIP started winning By-Elections, in the teeth of a recession; he paniced !December 20 2013 wrote: David Cameron has threatened to veto future enlargements of the EU – including the accession of countries like
Serbia and Albania – unless new rules are agreed to stop “vast migrations”.
Mr Cameron said the EU had to find ways “to slow down access to each other’s labour markets” to avoid a repeat
of the “huge mistake” that saw hundreds of thousands of Poles and Lithuanians come to Britain in the last decade.
Speaking at the end of a two-day summit in Brussels, the prime minister said he also wanted Europe to further
tighten rules on access to benefits, claiming that Germany, Austria and the Netherlands shared his concerns.
His comments are a response to public disquiet – and pressure from the UK Independence party – over the possible
arrival of a new wave of migrants from Bulgaria and Romania when work restrictions are lifted on January 1.
However, his threat to block future EU enlargements will be greeted with a wry smile in other European capitals:
Britain has always been the biggest enthusiast of widening the 28-member bloc to the east.
Of course the EU told him to fuck off; he made his bed; now he could lie in it.
There needed to be compromise, and both sides thought the other would blink.
I don't know how much longer this needs to continue before people start understanding that our Government is not interested in a deal and is primarily aiming for No-Deal Brexit with the veneer of having tried but been rebuffed by the dastardly Euros.Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:50 pmThere needed to be compromise, and both sides thought the other would blink.
Don't see why, the UK left, the EU rules are clear, access to the single market has to be on their terms, its their market, but wasn't it supposed to be the easiest deal to make in history? oh thats right the dastardly Europeans won't give in to the UK's demands.Longshanks wrote: ↑Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:50 pmThere needed to be compromise, and both sides thought the other would blink.
I don't know who you think you are, bringing cold, hard facts into the argument, but if you think that Brexshitters are going to let you get away with that sort of angle without whining like bitches, well - you, sir, are mistaken.