🇫🇷 France protests 🪧

[Ymx]

64 is quite young.

But I’m hearing there is an awful lot more to these protests, and the pension reform was the straw which broke the camels back.

What is the word on the street? Macron needs to go??

[Jim Lahey]

64 is quite young.

But I’m hearing there is an awful lot more to these protests, and the pension reform was the straw which broke the camels back.

What is the word on the street? Macron needs to go??

France is interesting as from the outside looking in, they seem like a fairly socialist-minded place with great roads and infrastructure, a generous benefits system, while also being home to some big industrial names and serious wealth along the Med. Fair play to them, they seem to have the big ticket items all in balance. I love visiting the place

[Ymx]

No one can protest/riot quite like the French.

Well, except maybe the US and their burning/looting segment.

[Jock42]

64 is quite young.

But I’m hearing there is an awful lot more to these protests, and the pension reform was the straw which broke the camels back.

What is the word on the street? Macron needs to go??

I don't think it's that young. Especially when you consider it was only a few years ago that the age here was 65. I'll be 68 though and we've accepted that with barely a whimper. When we were threatening to strike a few months ago I would have sacrificed any pay rise for a drop in my retirement age, sadly the unions don't appear to be doing much about it.

[laurent]

64 is old when you start at 14 ... if you can reach that age.

Adding 2 years of cotisations is huge.

The average age for good health is around 62 ...

Also France is one of the countries with the highest unemployment rate for over 55.

[Ymx]

64 is old when you start at 14 ... if you can reach that age.

Adding 2 years of cotisations is huge.

The average age for good health is around 62 ...

Also France is one of the countries with the highest unemployment rate for over 55.

Don’t you have to school until 16?

Why is unemployment so high for the seniors? Is it a particular era which don’t have the skills any more?

[Ymx]

However, is it then actually the case the main reason for the protests is in fact the pension age?

[Uncle fester]

Raising the retirement age will be pointless as companies actively discriminate against older workers in recruitment. Unless you've a "job for life", there's a good chance you're going to be stealth retired (aka on the dole) before 60.

[SaintK]

However, is it then actually the case the main reason for the protests is in fact the pension age?

Possibly but the the French do like a good riot about something

[Ymx]

[Jim Lahey]

[Hugo]

I heard Macron compared the protests to the Jan 6th Capitol riot.

Sounds like a rather desperate attempt to undermine the legitimacy of the protests.

[laurent]

64 is old when you start at 14 ... if you can reach that age.

Adding 2 years of cotisations is huge.

The average age for good health is around 62 ...

Also France is one of the countries with the highest unemployment rate for over 55.

Don’t you have to school until 16?

Why is unemployment so high for the seniors? Is it a particular era which don’t have the skills any more?

14 for apprentices.

Because companies want to be rid of higher wage people (older employees command higher wages usually).

[Mr Tim Buktoo]

So is 62 the current retirement age? And they want to increase it to 64?
I dont get it.
Its 66 in my own country ireland at the moment and they want to increase it to 68.
Ive no problem with this.
We all have to help out no matter what age we are. For the good of the country, pay your god damn taxes.
Whats with the french? Lazy frogs.
Im so sick of people in western europe thinking they have a shit life when they happen to live in the safest, most prosperous part of the planet.
Fuck um.
I hope Macron sticks to his guns and gives them to 2 fingers.

[laurent]

So is 62 the current retirement age? And they want to increase it to 64?
I dont get it.
Its 66 in my own country ireland at the moment and they want to increase it to 68.
Ive no problem with this.
We all have to help out no matter what age we are. For the good of the country, pay your god damn taxes.
Whats with the french? Lazy frogs.
Im so sick of people in western europe thinking they have a shit life when they happen to live in the safest, most prosperous part of the planet.
Fuck um.
I hope Macron sticks to his guns and gives them to 2 fingers.

This is all so that the Good Friends of Macron don't pay taxes.

[Hugo]

So is 62 the current retirement age? And they want to increase it to 64?
I dont get it.
Its 66 in my own country ireland at the moment and they want to increase it to 68.
Ive no problem with this.
We all have to help out no matter what age we are. For the good of the country, pay your god damn taxes.
Whats with the french? Lazy frogs.
Im so sick of people in western europe thinking they have a shit life when they happen to live in the safest, most prosperous part of the planet.
Fuck um.
I hope Macron sticks to his guns and gives them to 2 fingers.

You must have cheered against Robin Hood in a past life.

[Auckman]

The retirement age in NZ is 65. There’s a simmering on-again off-again debate about lifting it higher.

In Australia it is 70 (universal pension) and 65-70 (means-tested)

It’s hilarious that the French are whingeing about lifting it to 64.

[sockwithaticket]

French have got the right idea, those of us who haven't protested strongly enough against ages like 68 and 70 are going to rue it when those ages roll around.

[Stranger]

Agreed, just because other countries populations have passively accepted rising pension ages, why should the French?

[Guy Smiley]

So is 62 the current retirement age? And they want to increase it to 64?
I dont get it.
Its 66 in my own country ireland at the moment and they want to increase it to 68.
Ive no problem with this.
We all have to help out no matter what age we are. For the good of the country, pay your god damn taxes.
Whats with the french? Lazy frogs.
Im so sick of people in western europe thinking they have a shit life when they happen to live in the safest, most prosperous part of the planet.
Fuck um.
I hope Macron sticks to his guns and gives them to 2 fingers.

This is all so that the Good Friends of Macron don't pay taxes.

Is it?

Are you sure it's not because life expectancy is increasing and you don't have the population to fund retirement pensions for more years per person than say, 20 years ago?

[inactionman]

Agreed, just because other countries populations have passively accepted rising pension ages, why should the French?

I think many have got their heads around the fact that people are living longer, which has a healthcare cost all its own, and money sadly does not yet grow on trees.

I've no real idea if Macron is just using pension age rises as a way to subsidise tax cuts for the rich, as suggested below, but I'd think it's relatively straightforward to see a link between life expectancy and retirement age.

[laurent]

So is 62 the current retirement age? And they want to increase it to 64?
I dont get it.
Its 66 in my own country ireland at the moment and they want to increase it to 68.
Ive no problem with this.
We all have to help out no matter what age we are. For the good of the country, pay your god damn taxes.
Whats with the french? Lazy frogs.
Im so sick of people in western europe thinking they have a shit life when they happen to live in the safest, most prosperous part of the planet.
Fuck um.
I hope Macron sticks to his guns and gives them to 2 fingers.

This is all so that the Good Friends of Macron don't pay taxes.

Is it?

Are you sure it's not because life expectancy is increasing and you don't have the population to fund retirement pensions for more years per person than say, 20 years ago?

Well you sure Don't have a clue.

The French Government has been giving tax breaks to large companies, richest, and profiteers like there is no tomorrow.

The pension board suggested a different solution, the unions have been snobbed (all of them even the center right ones and the small companies union too).

[Guy Smiley]

Every Western government is giving tax breaks to large corporates, it's a terrible joke and a crime worth a thread of its own...

what were the alternatives?

[sockwithaticket]

Agreed, just because other countries populations have passively accepted rising pension ages, why should the French?

I think many have got their heads around the fact that people are living longer, which has a healthcare cost all its own, and money sadly does not yet grow on trees.

I've no real idea if Macron is just using pension age rises as a way to subsidise tax cuts for the rich, as suggested below, but I'd think it's relatively straightforward to see a link between life expectancy and retirement age.

Thing is, being longer lived doesn't necessarily mean a longer period of largely benign health through which it's possible to keep working. Those who've worked manual jobs for 40+ years can be pretty broken down by 60 and as we're increasingly discovering white collar jobs that leave people very sedentary have detrimental impacts on health and wellbeing.

Anecdotally, my dad's just turned 66 and would probably keep going to his early 70s to set up an ideal pension pot, but he's increasingly finding even his fully work from home supply chain logistics role a struggle, he gets mentally fatigued by it to a far greater degree than even 4 or 5 years ago. He's also got circulatory issues and has had to start using a hearing aid, which he's not taking very well having been in pretty robust health for the rest of his life. 60s are an age where fitness to work is hugely variable.

Part of me wonders if continually upping retirement age isn't at least a little bit about working us all into a grave earlier than if we were able to retire at 60 - 65. If workers go on for years more than was the case and draw retirement payments for years less, that's more tax money for officials to try and funnel into the coffers of their donors and mates rather than pay out to the people.

While money doesn't grow on trees, there's enough of it out there in the hands of megacorps and obscenely wealthy individuals that I think most of us would prefer seeing some evidence of attempts to seriously go after it and redistribute fairly before governments tell us all we've got to keep working until we've more or less shuffled off the mortal coil.

Not that any of it matters to me as a mid-millenial. Climate disaster or resource wars (probably the result of climate disaster) will probably get me before I hit retirement age in the next 35 - 40 years. Only by then we'll be saying 'retirement what?' because the overlords will have eliminated it as a concept for all us proles...

[Hugo]

Agreed, just because other countries populations have passively accepted rising pension ages, why should the French?

I think many have got their heads around the fact that people are living longer, which has a healthcare cost all its own, and money sadly does not yet grow on trees.

I've no real idea if Macron is just using pension age rises as a way to subsidise tax cuts for the rich, as suggested below, but I'd think it's relatively straightforward to see a link between life expectancy and retirement age.

Thing is, being longer lived doesn't necessarily mean a longer period of largely benign health through which it's possible to keep working. Those who've worked manual jobs for 40+ years can be pretty broken down by 60 and as we're increasingly discovering white collar jobs that leave people very sedentary have detrimental impacts on health and wellbeing.

Anecdotally, my dad's just turned 66 and would probably keep going to his early 70s to set up an ideal pension pot, but he's increasingly finding even his fully work from home supply chain logistics role a struggle, he gets mentally fatigued by it to a far greater degree than even 4 or 5 years ago. He's also got circulatory issues and has had to start using a hearing aid, which he's not taking very well having been in pretty robust health for the rest of his life. 60s are an age where fitness to work is hugely variable.

Part of me wonders if continually upping retirement age isn't at least a little bit about working us all into a grave earlier than if we were able to retire at 60 - 65. If workers go on for years more than was the case and draw retirement payments for years less, that's more tax money for officials to try and funnel into the coffers of their donors and mates rather than pay out to the people.

While money doesn't grow on trees, there's enough of it out there in the hands of megacorps and obscenely wealthy individuals that I think most of us would prefer seeing some evidence of attempts to seriously go after it and redistribute fairly before governments tell us all we've got to keep working until we've more or less shuffled off the mortal coil.

Not that any of it matters to me as a mid-millenial. Climate disaster or resource wars (probably the result of climate disaster) will probably get me before I hit retirement age in the next 35 - 40 years. Only by then we'll be saying 'retirement what?' because the overlords will have eliminated it as a concept for all us proles...

Excellent post. Says it all really.

[Sandstorm]

I admire a good protest against greedy government. Go France!!

[inactionman]

Agreed, just because other countries populations have passively accepted rising pension ages, why should the French?

I think many have got their heads around the fact that people are living longer, which has a healthcare cost all its own, and money sadly does not yet grow on trees.

I've no real idea if Macron is just using pension age rises as a way to subsidise tax cuts for the rich, as suggested below, but I'd think it's relatively straightforward to see a link between life expectancy and retirement age.

Thing is, being longer lived doesn't necessarily mean a longer period of largely benign health through which it's possible to keep working. Those who've worked manual jobs for 40+ years can be pretty broken down by 60 and as we're increasingly discovering white collar jobs that leave people very sedentary have detrimental impacts on health and wellbeing.

Anecdotally, my dad's just turned 66 and would probably keep going to his early 70s to set up an ideal pension pot, but he's increasingly finding even his fully work from home supply chain logistics role a struggle, he gets mentally fatigued by it to a far greater degree than even 4 or 5 years ago. He's also got circulatory issues and has had to start using a hearing aid, which he's not taking very well having been in pretty robust health for the rest of his life. 60s are an age where fitness to work is hugely variable.

Part of me wonders if continually upping retirement age isn't at least a little bit about working us all into a grave earlier than if we were able to retire at 60 - 65. If workers go on for years more than was the case and draw retirement payments for years less, that's more tax money for officials to try and funnel into the coffers of their donors and mates rather than pay out to the people.

While money doesn't grow on trees, there's enough of it out there in the hands of megacorps and obscenely wealthy individuals that I think most of us would prefer seeing some evidence of attempts to seriously go after it and redistribute fairly before governments tell us all we've got to keep working until we've more or less shuffled off the mortal coil.

Not that any of it matters to me as a mid-millenial. Climate disaster or resource wars (probably the result of climate disaster) will probably get me before I hit retirement age in the next 35 - 40 years. Only by then we'll be saying 'retirement what?' because the overlords will have eliminated it as a concept for all us proles...

Yep, I think there's probably a pretty straightforward, non-sinister explanation - although hardly any more palatable to you or me - that it's just easier under existing regulations and regulatory structures to expect the average law-abiding person to pick up the slack than to get after large multinationals.

I did a little bit of work for HMRC a few years back on information architecture as they're rejigging their learning and development - one of the things they're trying to change is to move away from classroom based, en masse training to more on-line, modular - and a significant driver is the need to continually and rapidly modify tax law to cater for changes such as the amazon tax dodges, and they need to be able to push the learning and development and training down quickly to front-end case workers. I raise this just to point out it's comparatively easy to up a retirement age compared to overhauling a tax regime.

And I agree completely that living longer is not equivalent to delaying the effects old age.

[laurent]

Every Western government is giving tax breaks to large corporates, it's a terrible joke and a crime worth a thread of its own...

what were the alternatives?

Some very minor Cotisation rate hikes (4€ per year for a few years) would have been sufficient as per the pension board.

Predicted Deficit is around 12 B in as many years if nothing is done (that is peak as it will decrease naturally after).