NPR

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:09 am It’s not exactly unfathomable we all have unconscious biases.

Through our trusted educators, media and also through lived experiences.

It’s not a stretch to see that I have deep mistrust of those illegal immigrants arriving like a plague.

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:37 pm

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:09 am It’s not exactly unfathomable we all have unconscious biases.

Through our trusted educators, media and also through lived experiences.

It’s not a stretch to see that I have deep mistrust of those illegal immigrants arriving like a plague.

i have a deep mistrust of something called unconscious bias, if it is unconscious how do you know you have it, and if you don't know you have it, how do you fix it?

You are then reliant on someone else to tell you have something called unconscious bias who themselves may have unconscious bias and so on....in other words it is a complete bollox expression.

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:43 pm

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:37 pm

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:09 am It’s not exactly unfathomable we all have unconscious biases.

Through our trusted educators, media and also through lived experiences.

It’s not a stretch to see that I have deep mistrust of those illegal immigrants arriving like a plague.

i have a deep mistrust of something called unconscious bias, if it is unconscious how do you know you have it, and if you don't know you have it, how do you fix it?

You are then reliant on someone else to tell you have something called unconscious bias who themselves may have unconscious bias and so on....in other words it is a complete bollox expression.

How does institutional racism grab you?
Slightly different obviously but a better phrase?

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:47 pm

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:43 pm

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:37 pm

i have a deep mistrust of something called unconscious bias, if it is unconscious how do you know you have it, and if you don't know you have it, how do you fix it?

You are then reliant on someone else to tell you have something called unconscious bias who themselves may have unconscious bias and so on....in other words it is a complete bollox expression.

How does institutional racism grab you?
Slightly different obviously but a better phrase?

I am not even sure that it means, it is another one of those terms freely banded about but nobody can really define what it means. Does it mean "institutions" have policies and rules that are racially biased? in which case surely that would be illegal...or what?

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:54 pm

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:47 pm

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:43 pm

How does institutional racism grab you?
Slightly different obviously but a better phrase?

I am not even sure that it means, it is another one of those terms freely banded about but nobody can really define what it means. Does it mean "institutions" have policies and rules that are racially biased? in which case surely that would be illegal...or what?

It's a nebulous issue. Take the Met Police, it has policies and procedures etc but dispute these. The force has been characterized as misoginistic and racist.
I think I can understand it given the treatment of women and people of colour.

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 1:01 pm

C69 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:54 pm

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:47 pm

I am not even sure that it means, it is another one of those terms freely banded about but nobody can really define what it means. Does it mean "institutions" have policies and rules that are racially biased? in which case surely that would be illegal...or what?

It's a nebulous issue. Take the Met Police, it has policies and procedures etc but dispute these. The force has been characterized as misoginistic and racist.
I think I can understand it given the treatment of women and people of colour.

but is that something that is enforced by the institution, or just individuals within that institution? Surely for it to be institutional it has to be something that is supported by policies and practices institution wide.

I think a bit like unconscious bias it is a very lazy term.

ASMO wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:37 pm

Ymx wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 9:09 am It’s not exactly unfathomable we all have unconscious biases.

Through our trusted educators, media and also through lived experiences.

It’s not a stretch to see that I have deep mistrust of those illegal immigrants arriving like a plague.

i have a deep mistrust of something called unconscious bias, if it is unconscious how do you know you have it, and if you don't know you have it, how do you fix it?

You are then reliant on someone else to tell you have something called unconscious bias who themselves may have unconscious bias and so on....in other words it is a complete bollox expression.

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 5:52 am Indeed, to assume your unconscious mind doesn’t have biases is a bit odd really. It’s assuming yourself to be perfect.

ASMO wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 8:17 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 5:52 am Indeed, to assume your unconscious mind doesn’t have biases is a bit odd really. It’s assuming yourself to be perfect.

Thats not what i said though, i said how do you know, how do you detect and how do you treat. I have been on UB courses and they were all pseudo science, there was nothing exact, it was all a bunch of assumptions that may or may not be true and certainly were not measurable in any way.

Humans by nature will have bias and inclinations built in, but the thing is everyone is dfifferent, what motivates and triggers them is governed by an almost infinite combination of experiences that is unique to them.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

But plenty of research shows that, for instance, identical CVs are rated differently depending on whether the name and/or picture of the non-majority-race applicant is included in the CV - and this then gets interpreted as evidence for unconscious bias. Which completely ignores variation between individuals (if CVs are rated differently on average, it doesn't mean everyone rates CV differently) and the other explanation - that people are consciously biased, i.e. they are knowingly (and presumably, happily) racist.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:55 am

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

But plenty of research shows that, for instance, identical CVs are rated differently depending on whether the name and/or picture of the non-majority-race applicant is included in the CV - and this then gets interpreted as evidence for unconscious bias. Which completely ignores variation between individuals (if CVs are rated differently on average, it doesn't mean everyone rates CV differently) and the other explanation - that people are consciously biased, i.e. they are knowingly (and presumably, happily) racist.

IIRC when applying for jobs in the NHS (and I assume a load of government) the CV that gets sent to the hiring manager has most personally identifiable information removed to minimize this - just employment history and qualifications.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:55 am

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

But plenty of research shows that, for instance, identical CVs are rated differently depending on whether the name and/or picture of the non-majority-race applicant is included in the CV - and this then gets interpreted as evidence for unconscious bias. Which completely ignores variation between individuals (if CVs are rated differently on average, it doesn't mean everyone rates CV differently) and the other explanation - that people are consciously biased, i.e. they are knowingly (and presumably, happily) racist.

IIRC when applying for jobs in the NHS (and I assume a load of government) the CV that gets sent to the hiring manager has most personally identifiable information removed to minimize this - just employment history and qualifications.

Dinsdale Piranha wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 11:55 am

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

But plenty of research shows that, for instance, identical CVs are rated differently depending on whether the name and/or picture of the non-majority-race applicant is included in the CV - and this then gets interpreted as evidence for unconscious bias. Which completely ignores variation between individuals (if CVs are rated differently on average, it doesn't mean everyone rates CV differently) and the other explanation - that people are consciously biased, i.e. they are knowingly (and presumably, happily) racist.

IIRC when applying for jobs in the NHS (and I assume a load of government) the CV that gets sent to the hiring manager has most personally identifiable information removed to minimize this - just employment history and qualifications.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

But plenty of research shows that, for instance, identical CVs are rated differently depending on whether the name and/or picture of the non-majority-race applicant is included in the CV - and this then gets interpreted as evidence for unconscious bias. Which completely ignores variation between individuals (if CVs are rated differently on average, it doesn't mean everyone rates CV differently) and the other explanation - that people are consciously biased, i.e. they are knowingly (and presumably, happily) racist.

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

shereblue wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 1:13 pm

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

But plenty of research shows that, for instance, identical CVs are rated differently depending on whether the name and/or picture of the non-majority-race applicant is included in the CV - and this then gets interpreted as evidence for unconscious bias. Which completely ignores variation between individuals (if CVs are rated differently on average, it doesn't mean everyone rates CV differently) and the other explanation - that people are consciously biased, i.e. they are knowingly (and presumably, happily) racist.

That sounds shocking. Every white guy should be given a safe space in the workplace. You really should sue your employer.

"People of colour" with their racism claptrap victimising poor "white people" like you with their harebrained theories.

I'm so sorry.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:04 pm

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

Yep my experience also.


Incidentally, white males are statistically more likely to hire outside their own white male group than are any other category, not that it fits the training

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:04 pm

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

Yep my experience also.


Incidentally, white males are statistically more likely to hire outside their own white male group than are any other category, not that it fits the training

Line6 HXFX wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:48 am I grew up in the seventies and eighties.l, I went to Air Cadets at 12 (it was essentially military basic training for 4 years)....they poured a fuck of a lot of bigotry into me at a young age.

Christ some of the songs we used to sing in the back of a mini bus (with adults around btw) were jaw droppingly racist.


Don't know if that shit is put there for life.

Guy Smiley wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 1:53 am

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:04 pm

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

Yep my experience also.


Incidentally, white males are statistically more likely to hire outside their own white male group than are any other category, not that it fits the training

What's the percentage of white males in hiring positions as opposed to 'other categories'?

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 8:17 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:04 pm

clydecloggie wrote: ↑Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:19 am Every UB training I've been on (and there were a fair few) essentially amounted to a person of colour telling white people that regardless of their conscious beliefs and actions, subconsciously they're all racists. Which is bollox.

Yep my experience also.


Incidentally, white males are statistically more likely to hire outside their own white male group than are any other category, not that it fits the training

Got any links for that?

Line6 HXFX wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:12 am What can I say, at 14 I was effectively a full blown, signed up member of the Hitler Youth...I was awful. Misogynistic, homophobic, racist, bigoted.
Think Pink singing "yah thought you might like to Go to the Show"
They once brought a Senior WRAF to visit, who was a crash scene investigator. At the end of the talk they asked. "what do you think of Women in the RAF"... to which this otherwise lovely young 14 year old kid said..."women are only good for one thing sir".


The bastards get you with their brilliantly comedic songs, in the back of mini buses, at a young age..on the way to some Duke of Edinburgh award, March.

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:18 am

Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 8:17 pm

Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Thu Oct 26, 2023 2:04 pm

Yep my experience also.


Incidentally, white males are statistically more likely to hire outside their own white male group than are any other category, not that it fits the training

Got any links for that?

Honest answer is yes I have read reports on this before, no I don’t have them to hand, so the source is one baby step away from ‘trust me bro’, unless I stumble back upon it.

With all that said, the male/female divide in hiring decisions is really observably obvious to anyone who pays any attention

Gumboot wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 8:00 am

Line6 HXFX wrote: ↑Fri Oct 27, 2023 7:48 am I grew up in the seventies and eighties.l, I went to Air Cadets at 12 (it was essentially military basic training for 4 years)....they poured a fuck of a lot of bigotry into me at a young age.

Christ some of the songs we used to sing in the back of a mini bus (with adults around btw) were jaw droppingly racist.


Don't know if that shit is put there for life.

Surely it was just as racist then as it is now. Why didn't you question it at the time?