What is shaping modern UK Conservatism?

[Line6 HXFX]

As an extremely inquisitive thoughtful bloke with lots of interests, I often wonder what is behind modern conservatism, where is it heading, what's it all about. It is sometimes hard to penetrate the mind of Bimbo etc, and get past the invective.
Conservatism seems to have gone through about six iterations in 10 years in the UK.
It's current iteration is a complete mystery to me.

It is not like they put this stuff in their manifestos.

It is also hard with the footballification of Politics for conservatives to look inwards at their own side, as it seems they are always on attack.


Discovered this article in the Gaurdian by Andy Beckett that really shined a light on this current iteration of the conservative movement.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ateurs-rcp

I'll start you off..you're welcome.

So much seems unusual about this Conservative government: its constant disruptiveness; its preference for rhetoric over functional policies; its mixture of brazen U-turns and cult-like discipline; its flirtations with the far right alongside leftwing-sounding plans to “level up”; its deadly reluctance to curtail small freedoms in a pandemic.

It’s common to attribute some or all of these tendencies to the idiosyncrasies of Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, or the effects of Brexit, or the rise of rightwing populism. But there is a less noticed and more surprising factor at work, too. Today’s Tory government has adopted some of the style, rhetoric and preoccupations of a defunct radical sect, the Revolutionary Communist party (RCP).

The RCP was a tiny British party, founded in the 70s, officially disbanded in the late 90s. Despite its name, most of its stances were not communist or revolutionary but contrarian: it supported free speech for racists, and nuclear power; it attacked environmentalism and the NHS. Its most consistent impulse was to invoke an idealised working class, and claim it was actually being harmed by the supposed elites of the liberal left.


A similar impulse has also driven the Johnson government, in particular its Brexit policy and the decisive capture in last year’s election of Labour’s “red wall”. This similarity is less surprising once you know that a former RCP member, Munira Mirza, is head of the Downing Street policy unit, and probably Johnson’s most important adviser after Cummings. In an article for Grazia magazine this year, Johnson called her “extraordinary”, “ruthless”, and one of “the five women who have shaped my life”. On Friday another

[C69]

Islamophobia, mysoginy and rum bum and the lash with a dash of xenophobia and self serving plutocracy.

[Sandstorm]

Twitter

[Paddington Bear]

Twitter

I suspect this is closest to the truth

[La soule]

Islamophobia, mysoginy and rum bum and the lash with a dash of xenophobia and self serving plutocracy.

Add some more xenophobia to it and it is spot on.

Talking about which, where is the Brexit thread?

[ASMO]

Islamophobia, mysoginy and rum bum and the lash with a dash of xenophobia and self serving plutocracy.

Add some more xenophobia to it and it is spot on.

Talking about which, where is the Brexit thread?

Throw in some sexual deviancy and rape

[La soule]

Islamophobia, mysoginy and rum bum and the lash with a dash of xenophobia and self serving plutocracy.

Add some more xenophobia to it and it is spot on.

Talking about which, where is the Brexit thread?

Throw in some sexual deviancy and rape

Morally bankrupted

[C69]

Islamophobia, mysoginy and rum bum and the lash with a dash of xenophobia and self serving plutocracy.

Add some more xenophobia to it and it is spot on.

Talking about which, where is the Brexit thread?

Throw in some sexual deviancy and rape

Fair point

[spike]

Domination of the middle ground probably. It's how to get elected. Covid-19 has blown economic conservatism out of the water though.

[iarmhí]

Ideology is long gone.

It's like a football team. Who do you support? If the Tories raised taxes, created bigger government and even started agreeing with union demands Bimbo and message would still support it.

[Yeeb]

Add some more xenophobia to it and it is spot on.

Talking about which, where is the Brexit thread?

Throw in some sexual deviancy and rape

Fair point

And some turds (provided they are thrown into the shallow end)

[Nols]

Twitter

This. It's shaping progessive/liberalism just as badly, for some people.

[Hugo]

The RCP was a tiny British party, founded in the 70s, officially disbanded in the late 90s. Despite its name, most of its stances were not communist or revolutionary but contrarian: it supported free speech for racists.

Interesting reading up on them, that writer seems to be barking up the wrong tree though, most of their stances seem protoypically left wing for a UK party of that era. They supported Irish republicanism, wanted equality for homosexuals, believed in no enforcement of immigration laws, opposed deportations, they wanted to "keep the police out of Brixton" which seems like a forerunner to the anti police BLM rhetoric and were committed to going toe to toe with racists on the street.

[Glaston]

It is also hard with the footballification of Politics for conservatives to look inwards at their own side, as it seems they are always on attack.

Snipped a lot

but the remaining bit made me LOL


Do you ever read what comes out of a lot of Labour rank and file.

Their whole reason d'etre as a political entity is fighting the Conservatives.
Having policies that people might actually like, comes a long long way behind "smashing the Tories".

[Glaston]

Ideology is long gone.

It's like a football team. Who do you support? If the Tories raised taxes, created bigger government and even started agreeing with union demands Bimbo and message would still support it.

Just to point out Bimbo didnt like May and I dont think he is to keen on Boris the Wet.

[tc27]

Nothing - its simply a project entirely aimed at staying in power.

[JM2K6]

American Conservatism.

[Un Pilier]

Politics generally is at it’s lowest ebb since .... since when ? 19th Century? 1920s? 30s?

I fear it will get worse. I have long argued that social media will be responsible for a catastrophic diminuation of civilisation with complex issues reduced to slogans. We have seen that before. Different technologies - similar dangers.

Having said that, was there ever a time you respected politicians? And I don’t just mean your tribe. Worth a thread that - I’ll start one.

[La soule]

Politics generally is at it’s lowest ebb since .... since when ? 19th Century? 1920s? 30s?

I fear it will get worse. I have long argued that social media will be responsible for a catastrophic diminuation of civilisation with complex issues reduced to slogans. We have seen that before. Different technologies - similar dangers.

Having said that, was there ever a time you respected politicians? And I don’t just mean your tribe. Worth a thread that - I’ll start one.

No. They all appear to be involved in that race to the bottom.

Pricks.

[Un Pilier]

Politics generally is at it’s lowest ebb since .... since when ? 19th Century? 1920s? 30s?

I fear it will get worse. I have long argued that social media will be responsible for a catastrophic diminuation of civilisation with complex issues reduced to slogans. We have seen that before. Different technologies - similar dangers.

Having said that, was there ever a time you respected politicians? And I don’t just mean your tribe. Worth a thread that - I’ll start one.

No. They all appear to be involved in that race to the bottom.

Pricks.

Was it always so?

[Hugo]

Politics generally is at it’s lowest ebb since .... since when ? 19th Century? 1920s? 30s?

Isn't this mentality attributable to pessimism rather than reality? There seems to be this ever present feeling in politics that "things have never been this bad" yet when you read history you see that mankind has almost always lurched from one political crisis to the next.

[Un Pilier]

Politics generally is at it’s lowest ebb since .... since when ? 19th Century? 1920s? 30s?

Isn't this mentality attributable to pessimism rather than reality? There seems to be this ever present feeling in politics that "things have never been this bad" yet when you read history you see that mankind has almost always lurched from one political crisis to the next.

True, I feel very pessimistic. I have read extensively about Cicero’s days and the end of the Republic so understand your point. But I don’t remember things being this dark in my lifetime. Tbf I remember the sixties when despite the nuclear threat there was a real sense of optimism. How much was that to do with politicians? Maybe not so much.

[Paddington Bear]

One thing that is abundantly clear the more you look at history is that every generation thinks the kids these days are a joke and politicians used to be more substantial. Britain spent much of the Victorian era in something of an existential crisis.

I think what is a genuine issue is social media - it encourages politicians to make unguarded remarks and to some extent forces them to have an instant opinion on everything, revealing them largely to be poorly informed prats. I don't think that's new, I just think a 1970s MP could go away, have a think and then respond - you wouldn't see the cogs turning.

[Line6 HXFX]

I for one just thought Conservatism is just a con job, to rob us all of our national assets (that we have invested in for generations) and to sell them off out of the backseat of the car (mainly to their mates), whilst escaping to the airport.
They will say absolutely anything to get into power (from attacking single mothers, the sick, unemployed, immigrants) to carry out this robbery.

Brexit is the pinnacle of this robbery as it means they now need a dozen trucks, pulling two trailers, instead of just a car.

But apparently there is far more to Conservatism than that, it is all far more nuanced, subtle, intellectual, interesting..because they actually convinced all the finger jabbing, hateful resent'tards in the UK to vote for this and against their own interests..(yet again) and these people are not stupid.

[Yeeb]

I for one just thought Conservatism is just a con job, to rob us all of our national assets (that we have invested in for generations) and to sell them off out of the backseat of the car (mainly to their mates), whilst escaping to the airport.
They will say absolutely anything to get into power (from attacking single mothers, the sick, unemployed, immigrants) to carry out this robbery.

Brexit is the pinnacle of this robbery as it means they now need a dozen trucks, pulling two trailers, instead of just a car.

But apparently there is far more to Conservatism than that, it is all far more nuanced, subtle, intellectual, interesting..because they actually convinced all the finger jabbing, hateful resent'tards in the UK to vote for this and against their own interests..(yet again) and these people are not stupid.

You seem anti brexit - but as a self proclaimed welsh nationalist, isn’t that a double bit of hypocrisy seeing as wales strongly voted to leave ?
Makes no sense to me why welsh or Scots Nats want freedom from Westminster , yet want to be part of the Eu. Either pro union pro Eu, or pro nat pro brexit. Picking and choosing is just petty.

Blaming Tories 100% for brexit is just plain daft seeing which areas voted to leave. It was a Tory manifesto piece from your pal and moneylender D cam, they won the election , held the referendum like they said they would, and got a result. The British voting public desired brexit and kinda voted for it twice.

[Un Pilier]

I for one just thought Conservatism is just a con job, to rob us all of our national assets (that we have invested in for generations) and to sell them off out of the backseat of the car (mainly to their mates), whilst escaping to the airport.
They will say absolutely anything to get into power (from attacking single mothers, the sick, unemployed, immigrants) to carry out this robbery.

Brexit is the pinnacle of this robbery as it means they now need a dozen trucks, pulling two trailers, instead of just a car.

But apparently there is far more to Conservatism than that, it is all far more nuanced, subtle, intellectual, interesting..because they actually convinced all the finger jabbing, hateful resent'tards in the UK to vote for this and against their own interests..(yet again) and these people are not stupid.

Not a fan of the ballot box then? I think Brexit is a huge error but people voted for it, did they not?

[Galtsdrift]

UK Conservatism is now shaped by a desperate need to please the US, at any cost.

[Hal Jordan]

One thing that is abundantly clear the more you look at history is that every generation thinks the kids these days are a joke and politicians used to be more substantial. Britain spent much of the Victorian era in something of an existential crisis.

I think what is a genuine issue is social media - it encourages politicians to make unguarded remarks and to some extent forces them to have an instant opinion on everything, revealing them largely to be poorly informed prats. I don't think that's new, I just think a 1970s MP could go away, have a think and then respond - you wouldn't see the cogs turning.

Social media and the rolling news cycle has reduced everything to a vicious circle of soundbites and outrage.

Whilst the mob were quite able to kick off in the past about this or that, whether violently or otherwise, it would tend to be fairly limited in a geographic sense and reports wouldn't happen until the extra was printed or the evening news came on (unless it really was off the charts serious) and so instant, ill informed and bot driven pile ons didn't exist, nor did the absolute need to fill 24 hours with "as nothing happens op eds, talking heads and professional shit stirrers.

[penguin]

I for one just thought Conservatism is just a con job, to rob us all of our national assets (that we have invested in for generations) and to sell them off out of the backseat of the car (mainly to their mates), whilst escaping to the airport.
They will say absolutely anything to get into power (from attacking single mothers, the sick, unemployed, immigrants) to carry out this robbery.

Brexit is the pinnacle of this robbery as it means they now need a dozen trucks, pulling two trailers, instead of just a car.

But apparently there is far more to Conservatism than that, it is all far more nuanced, subtle, intellectual, interesting..because they actually convinced all the finger jabbing, hateful resent'tards in the UK to vote for this and against their own interests..(yet again) and these people are not stupid.

You seem anti brexit - but as a self proclaimed welsh nationalist, isn’t that a double bit of hypocrisy seeing as wales strongly voted to leave ?
Makes no sense to me why welsh or Scots Nats want freedom from Westminster , yet want to be part of the Eu. Either pro union pro Eu, or pro nat pro brexit. Picking and choosing is just petty.

Blaming Tories 100% for brexit is just plain daft seeing which areas voted to leave. It was a Tory manifesto piece from your pal and moneylender D cam, they won the election , held the referendum like they said they would, and got a result. The British voting public desired brexit and kinda voted for it twice.

Despite being one of the biggest beneficiaries of EU funding, Wales voted leave by a majority of 52% to 48% in the 2016 referendum – a result that took some analysts by surprise. However, work by Danny Dorling, a professor of geography at Oxford, found that the result could in part be attributed to the influence of English voters.

“If you look at the more genuinely Welsh areas, especially the Welsh-speaking ones, they did not want to leave the EU,” Dorling told the Sunday Times. “Wales was made to look like a Brexit-supporting nation by its English settlers.”

About 21% (650,000) of people living in Wales were born in England, with nearly a quarter aged over 65. The country voted for Brexit by a majority of just 82,000.

As for the more general question of how someone could support remaining part of the EU, but not the UK...I can only speak for myself. I believe in unions, and am not particularly interested in trying to create the old world order, divided and divisive. However if a union is not working for you then you shouldn't have to stay tied to it - in my opinion the EU was working well for Wales, the UK is not. I have never been a ferocious supporter of independence, but the more incompetent and grotesque Westminster becomes the stronger they make the case for Welsh independence.

[Mahoney]

More generally you can show yeeb's position is ridiculous by taking it to its logical conclusion, which is that you should either be in favour of one world government (unify all the things) or of every settlement being an independent state (no unions! ever!).

If you're in favour of neither of those things (i.e. nearly every one) then you think that unions are necessary but up to a point, and then it's just a debate as to what that point is & how nested you want things to be. Wanting Wales to be part of the UK & the UK to be part of Europe, Wales to be part of the UK outside Europe, Wales to be independent within the EU & Wales to be independent outside the EU are all thus potentially perfectly reasonable positions.

More specifically, not withstanding the nonsense spouted during the referendum the relationship between Wales and the UK is significantly different to that between a member state and the EU. Wales outside the UK but in the EU would have substantially more sovereignty* than Wales in the UK in the EU, as all the powers currently reserved to the Westminster Parliament and outside the EU's remit would become the Welsh government's.

* I am drawing a distinction here between sovereignty and real power; whether the Welsh government would have more or less actual power in practice is a matter of debate, but there is no question that the Welsh government would have more sovereignty

[spike]

More generally you can show yeeb's position is ridiculous by taking it to its logical conclusion, which is that you should either be in favour of one world government (unify all the things) or of every settlement being an independent state (no unions! ever!).

If you're in favour of neither of those things (i.e. nearly every one) then you think that unions are necessary but up to a point, and then it's just a debate as to what that point is & how nested you want things to be. Wanting Wales to be part of the UK & the UK to be part of Europe, Wales to be part of the UK outside Europe, Wales to be independent within the EU & Wales to be independent outside the EU are all thus potentially perfectly reasonable positions.

More specifically, not withstanding the nonsense spouted during the referendum the relationship between Wales and the UK is significantly different to that between a member state and the EU. Wales outside the UK but in the EU would have substantially more sovereignty* than Wales in the UK in the EU, as all the powers currently reserved to the Westminster Parliament and outside the EU's remit would become the Welsh government's.

* I am drawing a distinction here between sovereignty and real power; whether the Welsh government would have more or less actual power in practice is a matter of debate, but there is no question that the Welsh government would have more sovereignty

Of course if Wales went independent the Welsh gov would gain sovereignty. All things being I could support that. However the economic picture is starkly against independence.

About that Danny Dorling research, seems dodgy to me. Blaenau Gwent, Llanelli, Merthyr and the Rhondda voted heavily to leave, not sure they are overrun with English retirees. Gower voted remain, just the sort of spot where you get incomers. Plus how did he come up figures on how any English who live in Wales voted in the referendum? His stuff seems highly politicised.

[Yeeb]

More generally you can show yeeb's position is ridiculous by taking it to its logical conclusion, which is that you should either be in favour of one world government (unify all the things) or of every settlement being an independent state (no unions! ever!).

If you're in favour of neither of those things (i.e. nearly every one) then you think that unions are necessary but up to a point, and then it's just a debate as to what that point is & how nested you want things to be. Wanting Wales to be part of the UK & the UK to be part of Europe, Wales to be part of the UK outside Europe, Wales to be independent within the EU & Wales to be independent outside the EU are all thus potentially perfectly reasonable positions.

More specifically, not withstanding the nonsense spouted during the referendum the relationship between Wales and the UK is significantly different to that between a member state and the EU. Wales outside the UK but in the EU would have substantially more sovereignty* than Wales in the UK in the EU, as all the powers currently reserved to the Westminster Parliament and outside the EU's remit would become the Welsh government's.

* I am drawing a distinction here between sovereignty and real power; whether the Welsh government would have more or less actual power in practice is a matter of debate, but there is no question that the Welsh government would have more sovereignty

Of course if Wales went independent the Welsh gov would gain sovereignty. All things being I could support that. However the economic picture is starkly against independence.

About that Danny Dorling research, seems dodgy to me. Blaenau Gwent, Llanelli, Merthyr and the Rhondda voted heavily to leave, not sure they are overrun with English retirees. Gower voted remain, just the sort of spot where you get incomers. Plus how did he come up figures on how any English who live in Wales voted in the referendum? His stuff seems highly politicised.

Yup - he has no way of knowing who voted to leave, or that all people born in England were English and not welsh etc - just bending stats to suit his purpose.

I stand by my view that being anti westminster but pro Brussels is rather odd.

[eldanielfire]

UK Conservatism is now shaped by a desperate need to please the US, at any cost.

Hasn't this always been the case about UK politics? Labour or Conservative?

[Random1]

Don’t you just think that the Government are a collection decision makers, trying to make the best decisions they can?

I don’t think there’s some grand ideology.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Personal greed. The relentless corruption that seems to be sweeping through politics at the moment is all pervasive.

[Random1]

Personal greed. The relentless corruption that seems to be sweeping through politics at the moment is all pervasive.

Why do you say that?

Genuinely curious, as it doesn’t feel like that to me.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Personal greed. The relentless corruption that seems to be sweeping through politics at the moment is all pervasive.

Why do you say that?

Genuinely curious, as it doesn’t feel like that to me.

Just recent examples like Liz Truss’s advisor getting a £225m contract for PPE for a company set-up off shore with £100. Jennrick and his increasing number of kick backs for building approvals. Rees Mog and his offshore tax avoidance companies that seem to influence his politics more than the need of the people he claims to represent. An increasing number of brexit supporters and donors getting contracts, rewarded. Family getting a lordship. It’s just so shameless and it’s trickling it’s way through now. Everyone is on the take, why shouldn’t we.

And that’s before you get onto the Trump family in it to get as much cash before they get kicked out.

Politicians aren’t there for the betterment of the country or the people anymore. It’s all about how much can I get while I can.

[Un Pilier]

Personal greed. The relentless corruption that seems to be sweeping through politics at the moment is all pervasive.

Why do you say that?

Genuinely curious, as it doesn’t feel like that to me.

Just recent examples like Liz Truss’s advisor getting a £225m contract for PPE for a company set-up off shore with £100. Jennrick and his increasing number of kick backs for building approvals. Rees Mog and his offshore tax avoidance companies that seem to influence his politics more than the need of the people he claims to represent. An increasing number of brexit supporters and donors getting contracts, rewarded. Family getting a lordship. It’s just so shameless and it’s trickling it’s way through now. Everyone is on the take, why shouldn’t we.

And that’s before you get onto the Trump family in it to get as much cash before they get kicked out.

Politicians aren’t there for the betterment of the country or the people anymore. It’s all about how much can I get while I can..

I don’t doubt there are some for whom personal greed is a motivation. But it’s a stretch to generalise to this extent, I’d say.

[Random1]

Personal greed. The relentless corruption that seems to be sweeping through politics at the moment is all pervasive.

Why do you say that?

Genuinely curious, as it doesn’t feel like that to me.

Just recent examples like Liz Truss’s advisor getting a £225m contract for PPE for a company set-up off shore with £100. Jennrick and his increasing number of kick backs for building approvals. Rees Mog and his offshore tax avoidance companies that seem to influence his politics more than the need of the people he claims to represent. An increasing number of brexit supporters and donors getting contracts, rewarded. Family getting a lordship. It’s just so shameless and it’s trickling it’s way through now. Everyone is on the take, why shouldn’t we.

And that’s before you get onto the Trump family in it to get as much cash before they get kicked out.

Politicians aren’t there for the betterment of the country or the people anymore. It’s all about how much can I get while I can.

Completely agree.

I think I missed your point because I was thinking about the government/ministers rather than their entourage - I think people like Boris, Goves and even Mogg are chasing legacy rather than more cash.

Boris in particular would, at least in my currently hungover mind, swap everything to be thought of as Churchill in 100 years time.

I think the stuff you’re talking about is systemic and has probably been around since the dawn of money - people get close to the decision makers so that they can benefit - it’s no different in business, or even sport - it’s just more overt in politics and even more so in modern politics.

The only one in your list I can’t wrap my head around is the peerage one.

That has me questioning my feelings on the topic.

[fishfoodie]

Why do you say that?

Genuinely curious, as it doesn’t feel like that to me.

Just recent examples like Liz Truss’s advisor getting a £225m contract for PPE for a company set-up off shore with £100. Jennrick and his increasing number of kick backs for building approvals. Rees Mog and his offshore tax avoidance companies that seem to influence his politics more than the need of the people he claims to represent. An increasing number of brexit supporters and donors getting contracts, rewarded. Family getting a lordship. It’s just so shameless and it’s trickling it’s way through now. Everyone is on the take, why shouldn’t we.

And that’s before you get onto the Trump family in it to get as much cash before they get kicked out.

Politicians aren’t there for the betterment of the country or the people anymore. It’s all about how much can I get while I can.

Completely agree.

I think I missed your point because I was thinking about the government/ministers rather than their entourage - I think people like Boris, Goves and even Mogg are chasing legacy rather than more cash.

Boris in particular would, at least in my currently hungover mind, swap everything to be thought of as Churchill in 100 years time.

I think the stuff you’re talking about is systemic and has probably been around since the dawn of money - people get close to the decision makers so that they can benefit - it’s no different in business, or even sport - it’s just more overt in politics and even more so in modern politics.

The only one in your list I can’t wrap my head around is the peerage one.

That has me questioning my feelings on the topic.

As long as he's think about the dog shilling car insurance; he's probably right !