Mosque Shooter sentencing - and what to do with the body

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Enzedder
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Sentencing is due to take place in Christchurch next week and it will undoubtedly be preventative detention (which is the legal way of saying life imprisonment until you are deemed fit for release) with a very hefty non-parole period - I am picking 35 years.

The discussion here is where he should serve the sentence and the following is an interesting piece on what could happen. At the moment we have no arrangements with Aussie so I guess if we deported him he's free to kill again (or worse - breed). My thought is to keep the bastard here where we can make his life a misery and to hell with the cost
Christchurch mosque shootings: Why we should send gunman Brenton Tarrant back to Australia - Alexander Gillespie

COMMENT:

Jailing the Christchurch terrorist will cost New Zealand millions. A prisoner swap with Australia would solve more than one problem, writes Alexander Gillespie for The Conversation.

There is no death penalty in New Zealand, unlike the United States. But Christchurch terrorist Brenton Tarrant, due for sentencing next week, will be going to jail for a very long time.

A minimum of 17 years is required for a murder committed as part of a terrorist act, and Tarrant has admitted to 51 such murders (among other crimes).

Also unlike the US, New Zealand does not allow cumulative sentences. But it does allow for the imposition of what could become an indeterminate sentence, with no minimum parole period.

To lock him up in perpetuity will be very expensive. He is currently costing just over $4930 a day due to the extra levels of security, considerably more than the average of about $338 for a standard prisoner.

The next two years alone will cost New Zealand taxpayers about $3.6 million. The final sum for the 28-year-old terrorist will depend on how long he lives and the ongoing level of security he requires. If he has a normal life span the cost may be in the tens of millions per decade.

Should he stay or go?
In the minds of many, the costs and hassle of incarcerating him will be an acceptable price to pay. Foreign citizen or not, there is a symbolic and ethical responsibility for us to keep the rat we caught.

New Zealanders old enough to remember are still jaundiced from the last time we caught terrorists, the French agents Dominque Prieur and Alain Mafart who were directly linked to the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior in 1985.

The two were handed back to France as part of a reconciliation deal. But the French government quickly broke the terms of agreement, repatriating the prisoners from their detention on a South Pacific atoll to a normal life in France.

Another such act of bad faith is unlikely, as Tarrant has no government in his corner arguing for his repatriation. He does, however, have a government behind him that has implemented specific legislation to obtain the transfer of its own citizens when incarcerated in foreign countries, to serve their sentences on home soil.

This is not unusual legislation. Although there is no overarching international law, regional and bilateral initiatives are common. Australia's International Transfer of Prisoners Act, for example, aims to facilitate the transfer of prisoners between Australia and countries with which it has agreements.

Prisoners can serve their prison sentences in their country of nationality or in countries with which they have community ties. There are strong economic, social and humanitarian reasons for this approach.

The deportation of ex-prisoners will increase
Here is the catch. New Zealand has no such relationship with Australia. Unlike most comparable countries, we have little interest in the international transfer of prisoners, preferring to take a hard line when it comes to Kiwis in foreign jails.

Partly because of this, since 2014 Australia has allowed non-citizens to have their visas cancelled on character grounds, including having been sentenced to prison for more than 12 months.

So, although New Zealand prisoners in Australian jails may not be transferred to serve their sentences at home, they will be deported at the end of their sentences.

From early 2015 to mid-2018, about 1300 New Zealander ex-prisoners had been deported from Australia. After a brief interlude due to Covid-19, the deportations resumed.

It is no exaggeration to say this policy (and the cruel standards by which it is applied) are a significant irritant between the two countries.

If it doesn't change it's likely to get worse, too. As of mid-2019, New Zealand prisoners made up 3 per cent of the total Australian prisoner population (43,028) – about 1100 people.

Conversely, there were only about 35 Australians in our jails, out of about 320 foreigners in New Zealand's much smaller prison population (9324 as of March, 2019).

Time for new deal on expat prisoners
Somewhere in the middle of this darkness there is a glimmer of hope – the chance of a deal and a better relationship between the two countries.

Sign a prisoner transfer agreement. Exchange Tarrant and make him serve out his sentence in Australia, as ruled by the New Zealand judicial system.

Revise the rules for the deportation of New Zealanders who have committed crimes in Australia but been resident for a long time. Move the threshold for deportation from one to three years in prison and make it reciprocal.

Thereafter, recent arrivals in either country who commit serious crimes are transferred home to serve their time in accordance with their sentences.

Do this and we might start to move forward.

Alexander Gillespie is a Professor of Law at the University of Waikato.
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Plim
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35 years seems a bit feeble. Even in England we’ve just sent down a broadly comparable mass murderer for 55 years. And we tend not to sentence especially harshly; more emphasis on rehabilitation and parole assessments.

There are a tiny number of whole life tariff prisoners here. They tend to be obvious homicidal nutjobs who avoided being found insane for some reason.

Edit: sorry, realise it was a forecast of 35 years before parole but likely never to be released. Seems reasonable.
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fishfoodie
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What's that little volcanic island where a tour group was tragically hurt in an eruption ?

Seems like a perfect location for a small penal colony; say just the one person ?
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Enzedder
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fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:41 pm What's that little volcanic island where a tour group was tragically hurt in an eruption ?

Seems like a perfect location for a small penal colony; say just the one person ?
I like it - the tour company could take people out to take pot shots from the boats. That will get them back working
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Hugo
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5 grand per day to keep him locked up, wow. I wonder how that breaks down.
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Ellafan
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Wouldn't it be awful if someone forgot to lock a door between him and genpop.
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Enzedder
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Ellafan wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:26 am Wouldn't it be awful if someone forgot to lock a door between him and genpop.
That's the local suggestion
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Muttonbird
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fishfoodie wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 10:41 pm What's that little volcanic island where a tour group was tragically hurt in an eruption ?

Seems like a perfect location for a small penal colony; say just the one person ?
White Island, ironically.

I'm sure there's not a vehicle for this but can't we keep him at Paremoremo and each year send the Australian federal government the bill?

I guess this opens up the reverse arrangement with the NZ taxpayer liable for the incarceration of NZ citizens in Australia.
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Enzedder
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We don't have a prisoner treaty with Oz so sending him there is not an option unless we are happy for him to walk free (briefly)
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Muttonbird
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Enzedder wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:42 am We don't have a prisoner treaty with Oz si sending him there is not an option unless we are happy for him to walk free (briefly)
No, we can't send him back to where he came from. They will just let him go in no time. Dutton would probably pardon him. I do think we should send them the bill for his safe imprisonment here though.
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Sandstorm
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Muttonbird wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:54 am
Enzedder wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:42 am We don't have a prisoner treaty with Oz si sending him there is not an option unless we are happy for him to walk free (briefly)
No, we can't send him back to where he came from. They will just let him go in no time. Dutton would probably pardon him. I do think we should send them the bill for his safe imprisonment here though.
Ummmm...your lot made it possible for him to get automatic weapons. Not Australia.
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Enzedder
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Sandstorm wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:27 am
Muttonbird wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:54 am
Enzedder wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:42 am We don't have a prisoner treaty with Oz so sending him there is not an option unless we are happy for him to walk free (briefly)
No, we can't send him back to where he came from. They will just let him go in no time. Dutton would probably pardon him. I do think we should send them the bill for his safe imprisonment here though.
Ummmm...your lot made it possible for him to get automatic weapons. Not Australia.
Absolutely correct; our cock-up and we are the ones that have to bear it. Thankfully, that loophole has now closed and over the years the Police will round up a lot of the illegal weapons out there.
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Uncle fester
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Enzedder wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:30 pm
Ellafan wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 8:26 am Wouldn't it be awful if someone forgot to lock a door between him and genpop.
That's the local suggestion
What if he's incarcerated with a load of white power types?
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Need to put him in with the Mongies.
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Enzedder
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Jb1981
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I hope he reflects on this from one of the victims
“My heart is broken, but we are not broken. We are united. You have done that and I thank you for that.”
Whatever he set out to achieve he failed. The result was greater unity, not fear and division. Hopefully that unity continues long after he is forgotten.
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Surly a bare concrete cell, a large bowl of cold spinach a day, and some water from a recycling unit that still tastes of urine can't cost that much per day. Maybe they have to pay royalties for playing one direction at 3am every day?
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stunt_cunt
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Hard to say. I think if he lasts until the health is failing. We don't want to be paying to keep the cunt alive.

He's 35 or so isn't he? If he gets dropped in sydney as a 75-80 year old man he should be mostly harmless and mostly broken.
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ScarfaceClaw
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stunt_cunt wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:42 am Hard to say. I think if he lasts until the health is failing. We don't want to be paying to keep the cunt alive.

He's 35 or so isn't he? If he gets dropped in sydney as a 75-80 year old man he should be mostly harmless and mostly broken.
He’d be even more broken if they dropped him out of a helicopter at 1000 feet.
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blackblackblack
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Enzedder wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:38 am

Absolutely correct; our cock-up and we are the ones that have to bear it. Thankfully, that loophole has now closed and over the years the Police will round up a lot of the illegal weapons out there.
Thousands of law abiding citizens lost their ability to enjoy their sporting pastime as a result of police incompetence, and 51 people died.
The law required a family member and two character witnesses who had known him for over two years, he had two blokes from an internet forum, still got a license and 51 people died. They didn't need a law change, they just needed to enforce the law that was already in place. I recall being all gung ho for the ban at the time. Having learned of the detail behind the inadequacies of Police I am not sure they can be trusted to implement the new law any better than they did the old.
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Guy Smiley
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blackblackblack wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:04 am
Enzedder wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:38 am

Absolutely correct; our cock-up and we are the ones that have to bear it. Thankfully, that loophole has now closed and over the years the Police will round up a lot of the illegal weapons out there.
Thousands of law abiding citizens lost their ability to enjoy their sporting pastime as a result of police incompetence, and 51 people died.
The law required a family member and two character witnesses who had known him for over two years, he had two blokes from an internet forum, still got a license and 51 people died. They didn't need a law change, they just needed to enforce the law that was already in place. I recall being all gung ho for the ban at the time. Having learned of the detail behind the inadequacies of Police I am not sure they can be trusted to implement the new law any better than they did the old.
Be that as it may, I don’t see a need for anyone to have automatic weapons for private use.
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blackblackblack
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Neither do I, but at the same time, nobody needs to have a Ferrari, plenty of people have them, lots of people want one. If you are able to possess one and can use it safely without harming yourself or others, you should be allowed to. Stupid people do stupid shit in cars all the time. We don't ban cars, we ban the stupid people from using them, which is what should have happened here. He never should have gained a firearms license, he simply didn't meet the criteria as set down in the firearms act, 51 people may still be alive today had police done the job properly.

PS, you couldn't have automatic weapons under the previous firearms act either, you could have semi auto, which is a fine point of argument granted, but as it stands nothing actually needed to change. Thousands of law abiding citizens got fucked over for politically expedient grandstanding. The irony being, I'm not even a shooter and I voted for these clowns last time out.
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Sandstorm
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Why is it always cars that get used as an excuse to allow assault rifles??
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Guy Smiley
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Sandstorm wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:10 pm Why is it always cars that get used as an excuse to allow assault rifles??
Because everyone hates cyclists.
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Muttonbird wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:54 am No, we can't send him back to where he came from. They will just let him go in no time. Dutton would probably pardon him. I do think we should send them the bill for his safe imprisonment here though.
Do you actually think that would happen?

Also, we'll pay his bills if you guys pay for your guys in prison over here. Deal?
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Enzedder
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Thommo wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:42 pm
Muttonbird wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:54 am No, we can't send him back to where he came from. They will just let him go in no time. Dutton would probably pardon him. I do think we should send them the bill for his safe imprisonment here though.
Do you actually think that would happen?

Also, we'll pay his bills if you guys pay for your guys in prison over here. Deal?
Only Muttonbird thinks that - the rest of us are not so dumb.

Nope - as BBB said (even with the irrelevant analogy as Ferraris are not designed to kill and he could still have got the guns etc illegally as heaps got stolen and sold each year), it was our cock-up and we must foot the bill
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Muttonbird
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Thommo wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:42 pm
Muttonbird wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:54 am No, we can't send him back to where he came from. They will just let him go in no time. Dutton would probably pardon him. I do think we should send them the bill for his safe imprisonment here though.
Do you actually think that would happen?

Also, we'll pay his bills if you guys pay for your guys in prison over here. Deal?
I did make mention of that but there is a difference. 80% of Kiwis incarcerated in Australia learned their trade there (that's an educated guess), where-as this monster didn't develop his warped hatred of Muslims in New Zealand. He arrived here with the sole intention of committing this act.
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Muttonbird
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Enzedder wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:49 pm
Thommo wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:42 pm
Muttonbird wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 6:54 am No, we can't send him back to where he came from. They will just let him go in no time. Dutton would probably pardon him. I do think we should send them the bill for his safe imprisonment here though.
Do you actually think that would happen?

Also, we'll pay his bills if you guys pay for your guys in prison over here. Deal?
Only Muttonbird thinks that - the rest of us are not so dumb.

Nope - as BBB said (even with the irrelevant analogy as Ferraris are not designed to kill and he could still have got the guns etc illegally as heaps got stolen and sold each year), it was our cock-up and we must foot the bill
We did a transfer deal with France before and they were let go in no time.
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Enzedder
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That is a further reason NOT to transfer this prick
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Muttonbird
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I don't want him transferred. I just want them to pay for it.
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fishfoodie
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From Memory; when this stuff happens in Europe; & indeed the NH; where transfers happen; it's just the actual custody conditions, that changes, & that's to make it easier for relatives to visit; & also, perhaps to get into a, "nicer", prison regime.

The parole hearings will still happen in the sentencing jurisdiction, & obviously, their rules. There is never any possibility of the holding country trying to intervene, & impose their jurisdiction; they are just the custodians of the prisoner; it is always the sentencing country that controls the decision of whether or not the prisoner gets paroled, or released, or whatever; to the point where; if a prisoner; say; stabs another prisoner; the extra tariff they get, is as if they were in sentencing country, & not the actual country they are imprisoned in.

If the prisoner doesn't like it; they can just get sent back to the sentencing country, & get reduced visits; & increased their chances of getting shanked.
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Guy Smiley
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Any move to transfer him back to Aus would be spun by supporters as adding somehow to the martyr to the cause narrative he’s trying to set up.

Just discussing the guy plays into his attempted narrative. Ardern and the NZ govt had the right idea from the start... deny him the privilege of being publicly identified. Starve him of attention... the very thing he wanted.
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stunt_cunt wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:42 am Hard to say. I think if he lasts until the health is failing. We don't want to be paying to keep the cunt alive.

He's 35 or so isn't he? If he gets dropped in sydney as a 75-80 year old man he should be mostly harmless and mostly broken.

He's only 29.
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blackblackblack
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The point of the car analogy is not the car. It is the ability to obtain something you want but don't need. A car is a commonality most people can relate to. I could for example say that lots of people want private jets, but who the hell can relate to that? I understand that many here can't also relate to wanting an assault rifle, I count myself amongst their number, however I can also understand that some do and not for the reason that most will ascribe to that, simply because they exist and are likely a shit ton of fun to use in a safe environment. Again, if you can use the thing safely, without harming yourself or others, you should be able to.
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Kiap
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blackblackblack wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:59 pmif you can use the thing safely, without harming yourself or others, you should be able to.
Benign intent is one thing. Circumstantial risk is another.

What's your stance on mask wearing on planes, trains and uber automobiles?

As a sovereign citizen, I should be able to go mask free if I am virus free. Jacinta is violating my God given right.

Signed
Karen from Bunnings
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Guy Smiley
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Kiap wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:38 am
blackblackblack wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:59 pmif you can use the thing safely, without harming yourself or others, you should be able to.
Benign intent is one thing. Circumstantial risk is another.

What's your stance on mask wearing on planes, trains and uber automobiles?

As a sovereign citizen, I should be able to go mask free if I am virus free. Jacinta is violating my God given right.

Signed
Karen from Bunnings
😂👍
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blackblackblack
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Kiap wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:38 am
blackblackblack wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:59 pmif you can use the thing safely, without harming yourself or others, you should be able to.
Benign intent is one thing. Circumstantial risk is another.

What's your stance on mask wearing on planes, trains and uber automobiles?

As a sovereign citizen, I should be able to go mask free if I am virus free. Jacinta is violating my God given right.

Signed
Karen from Bunnings
I think Karen, that you must make your own choice and bear the consequences of that choice. I will be wearing one, whether or not you choose to is up to you bearing in mind the law may mandate the wearing of masks in certain circumstances hence the need for you to take responsibility for your choice as that may apply under the law, whether you believe that law applies to you or not.
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Guy Smiley
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blackblackblack wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:05 am
Kiap wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:38 am
blackblackblack wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:59 pmif you can use the thing safely, without harming yourself or others, you should be able to.
Benign intent is one thing. Circumstantial risk is another.

What's your stance on mask wearing on planes, trains and uber automobiles?

As a sovereign citizen, I should be able to go mask free if I am virus free. Jacinta is violating my God given right.

Signed
Karen from Bunnings
I think Karen, that you must make your own choice and bear the consequences of that choice. I will be wearing one, whether or not you choose to is up to you bearing in mind the law may mandate the wearing of masks in certain circumstances hence the need for you to take responsibility for your choice as that may apply under the law, whether you believe that law applies to you or not.
errr... ok. So no problem then, with banning assault rifles and the like 👍
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blackblackblack
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nah, it's not a blanket thing There was no need for the law change, the law needed to be enforced properly, it wasn't.
Karen is as ever irrelevant to the wider discussion she's by and large consumed by self interest.

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Ted.
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blackblackblack wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:04 am
Enzedder wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:38 am

Absolutely correct; our cock-up and we are the ones that have to bear it. Thankfully, that loophole has now closed and over the years the Police will round up a lot of the illegal weapons out there.
Thousands of law abiding citizens lost their ability to enjoy their sporting pastime as a result of police incompetence, and 51 people died.
The law required a family member and two character witnesses who had known him for over two years, he had two blokes from an internet forum, still got a license and 51 people died. They didn't need a law change, they just needed to enforce the law that was already in place. I recall being all gung ho for the ban at the time. Having learned of the detail behind the inadequacies of Police I am not sure they can be trusted to implement the new law any better than they did the old.
Can't agree. The next bloke who comes along who does have family support, or can fake it, could still carry out the exact same atrocity under those laws and regulations. Where do we end restricting gun privileges, I hear you ask, right about where they are now.
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