Concussion Legal Action Against WR

[Margin__Walker]

This could end up being big. Legal action against World Rugby from a group of former players.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... SApp_Other

Also confirmation that Steve Thompson has early onset dementia.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... are_btn_tw

[Sandstorm]

I feel for the players 100%, but this is not a good time for WR to get a big legal bill (win or lose) when money is already tight.

[Kawazaki]

Read about this over the weekend.

Ambulance chaser lawyers have been cold-calling any former player they can get hold of.

No win-no fee terms.

All very grubby.

[Uncle fester]

Bound to happen.
Probable outcome is tackling above the waist being banned.

[Sandstorm]

Bound to happen.
Probable outcome is tackling above the waist being banned.

How do you stop a forward pick-and-go 2m out from the tryline??? Probably why Steve Thompson has a cracked egg....

[dpedin]

Could be the end of the game as we know it. How is any club/nation going to get affordable insurance now?

[GogLais]

Not directly related to compensation claims but I’ve wondered and have never found out how UK H&S legislation deals with professional sport, I’ve never noticed anything that looks like an exemption when I’ve been flicking through it. I imagine a lot of this damage is being caused by actions that are perfectly legal in the context of the game.

[I like neeps]

A really harrowing read the interview with Thompson. Jeez.

[sockwithaticket]

Jesus, that interview...

This seems like a really good idea on the face of it:

“I don’t want to kill the game. I want it regulated.” He thinks professional players should be allowed to play only if they have a brain scan at the start of every season. “Every year you drive your car you get an MOT. The body’s exactly the same thing. If it’s not working, you shouldn’t be doing your job. It sounds awful, because lads are going to have to retire at 22 or 23. But trust me, it’s better finishing then than to be where I am now.”

[Line6 HXFX]

Some of the lovely rugby fans online are saying stuff like "well no one asked them to play rugby" , or "they knew going in" or " well could have given it up at any time having heard that repeated blows to the head may cause brain damage..but they choose to carry on"..

In rugby you chose to accept injury and you listen to the verdicts of medical staff.

If there is a culture of the coaches and medical staff keeping people in the game, after severe concussion..not regularly warning players of the damage they are doing to themselves (I seriously doubt they do, otherwise wtf is Lee Halfpenny, George North and Jamie Robert's doing still running around on rugby pitches) then the game is farked and rightly so.

I saw Lee halfpenny interviewed once, after a match when he played in France, and he sounded completely destroyed, faculty wise. This lovely guy trained to be a dentist, but he seemed after the match, and a career of tackling with his head, like he had an IQ of 55.
It breaks my heart, guys, rugby isn't worth a single Lee Halfpenny.

[SaintK]

A really harrowing read the interview with Thompson. Jeez.

Yes, it's not an easy read
It doesn't mention that he retired once due to ongoing injuries and took a major lump sum of insurance money. He was then offered a lot of money to play in France and paid back the insurance money to do so.
That couldn't possibly have been helpful to his current situation

[JM2K6]

A really harrowing read the interview with Thompson. Jeez.

Yes, it's not an easy read
It doesn't mention that he retired once due to ongoing injuries and took a major lump sum of insurance money. He was then offered a lot of money to play in France and paid back the insurance money to do so.
That couldn't possibly have been helpful to his current situation

I'm not sure that's relevant. He retired for other reasons, not concussions. Neck/back stuff IIRC. In France they gave him a second opinion and he was happy to play again.

Certainly playing on with concussions won't have helped him, but it wasn't the cause of the initial retirement and the time out of the game won't have hurt him either.

Poor sod, it's always so heartbreaking reading about living with CTE and early onset dementia. The piece on the old All Blacks remains incredibly moving.

Sadly we're already seeing the sport downplay the focus on head contact. Yellow cards for smashing someone in the head because well, they were on the floor already...

[laurent]

Bound to happen.
Probable outcome is tackling above the waist being banned.

How do you stop a forward pick-and-go 2m out from the tryline??? Probably why Steve Thompson has a cracked egg....

In Lower leagues Here you can't nose dive from a pick and go and tackle above the waist.

It sorts of work

[SaintK]

A really harrowing read the interview with Thompson. Jeez.

Yes, it's not an easy read
It doesn't mention that he retired once due to ongoing injuries and took a major lump sum of insurance money. He was then offered a lot of money to play in France and paid back the insurance money to do so.
That couldn't possibly have been helpful to his current situation

I'm not sure that's relevant. He retired for other reasons, not concussions. Neck/back stuff IIRC. In France they gave him a second opinion and he was happy to play again.

Certainly playing on with concussions won't have helped him, but it wasn't the cause of the initial retirement and the time out of the game won't have hurt him either.

Poor sod, it's always so heartbreaking reading about living with CTE and early onset dementia. The piece on the old All Blacks remains incredibly moving.

Sadly we're already seeing the sport downplay the focus on head contact. Yellow cards for smashing someone in the head because well, they were on the floor already...

Yes, it was a neck problem. But you wonder exactly what type of medical advice and guidance a pro player got back then
Hugely sad that he can't remember what was surely the most important day(s) of his sporting career and even more so that he forgets his wife's name.

[Niegs]

Could be the end of the game as we know it. How is any club/nation going to get affordable insurance now?

We've already had insurance issues in Canada. One provider walked, iirc, and the next one was much more expensive. Doesn't even give you much. It's mostly about catastrophic injury/death. I think two high schoolers have died in the last five years. One has a concussion protocol law named after her.

Awareness is MUCH better than it's ever been but I'm skeptical that the true lessons have sunk in at the grassroots where the risks are highest. Saw a player wobble off in a game, treated by a paramedic at the scene, but that professional said they looked fine to go back in. I had a word with the coach that "when it doubt, sit them out" is what we all need to be following. Symptoms might not appear for days. Player, thankfully, did not return to play that day. The girl who died, iirc, had a knock on a Thursday, only told a friend, had another the following Tuesday and went unconscious.

[Line6 HXFX]

Crikey, Alix Popham has early onset.
41, Jesus...

Though here is a completely contradictary thought, what is the likelihood of individuals ( outside of rugby ) and part of society getting this anyway? It has to be pretty high these days, like one in a hundred say, with a society flooded with anxiety, depression, worry, and spraying aluminium laced deodorant under its armpits and on its balls and cooking with hard anodised aluminium woks, and just generally hitting the booze like it is going out if fashion?
Anyway article here.


Wales' Alix Popham played in the famous 2008 win against England


Former Wales rugby player Alix Popham has revealed he has been diagnosed with early onset dementia as he joins what could be a landmark legal case against the Welsh Rugby Union, RFU and World Rugby.

The former Wales back-row has spoken about his diagnosis which has seen him become one of eight former rugby union players starting legal action against the game's authorities for alleged negligence.

In a harrowing interview with the BBC, Popham revealed the extent of his illness and the symptoms that now plague him.

He explained how he had been struggling with his short-term memory late last year, which led to the diagnosis in April 2020.

The former Scarlets back-row would forget people's names or lose track of a conversation, while his wife Mel remembers him setting the kitchen on fire.

She also told doctors about other symptoms he had been struggling with.

"She told him things like me mixing up words, forgetting words, losing my train of thought in conversations where I'd be telling a story about something that happened recently," Popham said.

The diagnosis has forced the 41-year-old him to contemplate his future - with things such as walking his daughter down the aisle now something that may not be possible.

"The neurologist has given us a five to 10 year management plan, but how quickly the symptoms get worse after that, nobody knows. That's the scary bit for me" he added.

"You end up talking about adapting the house, carers coming in, and as a 40-year-old, to hear that, was upsetting.

Incredibly, Popham's doctor believes he had more than 100,000 sub-concussions in his 14-year career - a staggering number that has affected his memory greatly.

"I haven't got memories of large chunks of my career," he says.

"During lockdown they repeated the 2008 game against England, when we won at Twickenham. I have no recollection of being on that pitch.

"We played in South Africa and I met Nelson Mandela before the game. I've got the picture on the wall, but I can't remember meeting him."

In addition to Popham, former England internationals Steve Thompson and Michael Lipman - both also under the age of 45 - have also gone public about their early onset dementia.

[Slick]

Could be the beginning of the end of pro rugby, which I wouldn't be sad about.

I can see waivers having to be signed by players and as someone mentioned, how do a pro club insure themselves. Perhaps it will end up back to an amateur game with training a couple of times a week, less of the bulking up, less fitness etc etc. If young guys get repeated knocks and have to give up then they have their jobs to fall back on etc. It can't go on like this.

[GogLais]

Could be the beginning of the end of pro rugby, which I wouldn't be sad about.

I can see waivers having to be signed by players and as someone mentioned, how do a pro club insure themselves. Perhaps it will end up back to an amateur game with training a couple of times a week, less of the bulking up, less fitness etc etc. If young guys get repeated knocks and have to give up then they have their jobs to fall back on etc. It can't go on like this.

Minor point maybe - what do I know but I thought that getting the other party to sign a waiver doesn’t absolve you from your legal responsibilities.

[Slick]

Could be the beginning of the end of pro rugby, which I wouldn't be sad about.

I can see waivers having to be signed by players and as someone mentioned, how do a pro club insure themselves. Perhaps it will end up back to an amateur game with training a couple of times a week, less of the bulking up, less fitness etc etc. If young guys get repeated knocks and have to give up then they have their jobs to fall back on etc. It can't go on like this.

Minor point maybe - what do I know but I thought that getting the other party to sign a waiver doesn’t absolve you from your legal responsibilities.

I've no idea to be honest but something has to happen or how does the sport survive in any shape

[GogLais]

Could be the beginning of the end of pro rugby, which I wouldn't be sad about.

I can see waivers having to be signed by players and as someone mentioned, how do a pro club insure themselves. Perhaps it will end up back to an amateur game with training a couple of times a week, less of the bulking up, less fitness etc etc. If young guys get repeated knocks and have to give up then they have their jobs to fall back on etc. It can't go on like this.

Minor point maybe - what do I know qbut I thought that getting the other party to sign a waiver doesn’t absolve you from your legal responsibilities.

I've no idea to be honest but something has to happen or how does the sport survive in any shape

Oh I agree. I was glad when my son packed it in at thirty and I’ve no wish for my grandchildren to get involved, which is a terrible thing to say really.

[Slick]

Minor point maybe - what do I know qbut I thought that getting the other party to sign a waiver doesn’t absolve you from your legal responsibilities.

I've no idea to be honest but something has to happen or how does the sport survive in any shape

Oh I agree. I was glad when my son packed it in at thirty and I’ve no wish for my grandchildren to get involved, which is a terrible thing to say really.

Yeah, it's a really sad situation. I've gone from dreaming of my son playing for Scotland to hoping he can just be involved with rugby at any level, and there is rugby left to be enjoyed. You know the game is fucked when folk like Greig Laidlaw is saying there is no way his sons are playing.

[ASMO]

Could be the beginning of the end of pro rugby, which I wouldn't be sad about.

I can see waivers having to be signed by players and as someone mentioned, how do a pro club insure themselves. Perhaps it will end up back to an amateur game with training a couple of times a week, less of the bulking up, less fitness etc etc. If young guys get repeated knocks and have to give up then they have their jobs to fall back on etc. It can't go on like this.

Minor point maybe - what do I know but I thought that getting the other party to sign a waiver doesn’t absolve you from your legal responsibilities.

They might force the players to get their own insurance for this going forwards.

[ScarfaceClaw]

I just read the Steve Thompson interview and when it says the RFU is negligent I must admit my first thought is how. Unless there is a clear behaviour of ignoring head injuries, pressuring players into ignoring it then I can’t see what else can be done short of ending rugby as a sport.

[Slick]

I’m genuinely worried about it being the end of the sport, I just don’t see how you can mitigate against concussions without fundamentally changing the whole thing.

Don’t know how I feel about what the ex players are doing, also don’t know enough about the case to comment properly.

What a pickle

[Blackmac]

I've no idea to be honest but something has to happen or how does the sport survive in any shape

Oh I agree. I was glad when my son packed it in at thirty and I’ve no wish for my grandchildren to get involved, which is a terrible thing to say really.

Yeah, it's a really sad situation. I've gone from dreaming of my son playing for Scotland to hoping he can just be involved with rugby at any level, and there is rugby left to be enjoyed. You know the game is fucked when folk like Greig Laidlaw is saying there is no way his sons are playing.

They have tried to tone things down with the new tackle laws but things have got so much worse in other aspects of the game. You look at the pick and drive pods them employ now and that is often 400 to 500 kilos of player that you are having to thrown yourself in front of. It is just mad.

[Margin__Walker]

Yep, it's become a game of collisions. Winning the collisions has become the key to the whole vocabulary of the game.

Whilst WR are in a tricky spot and there's always an element of it being a tough game that people choose to play, there comes a point where you do have a duty of care. Not sure where that is or how it plays out, but I think you'll see more of this as recent pros start hitting middle age.

[Flockwitt]

It needs ongoing work that is for sure. Steve Devine's story with concussion was horrifying. Hopefully the science does catch up to the point where they can genuinely catch the potentially affected. But just where it goes who knows. In this age of advanced materials we ought to be able to design a lightweight head protector than can worn which can assist, besides ongoing rules tweaks.

[JM2K6]

Head protectors are very unlikely to be any use. Look at NFL. Concussion isn't just about taking a whack to the head, it's about the brain getting mushed against the inside of the skull and any big contact is going to risk that. Helmets and scrumcaps have made things worse, not better.

Grab the bull by the horns, introduce weight limits, clean up the contact situations massively, do whatever you can to make it a game about agility, stamina, skill and speed rather than predominantly size and power.

[Kawazaki]

Literally just last week, a guy I played rugby with years ago announced that Steve Thompson was joining his company. They make lathes.

Not sure how that reconciles with this developing news.

Saint might know the him - Owen Coyne, ex-Blackheath/Upper Clapton and briefly for my old club where he currently looks after the junior section.

[Lobby]

When Shontayne Hape retired in 2014 after a series of concussions he was already suffering from reduced brain function. We haven’t really heard anything since, but I fear his prospects can’t be good. His injuries were also probably exacerbated by playing in France at a time when players were encouraged to ignore the concussion protocols.

[JM2K6]

When Shontayne Hape retired in 2014 after a series of concussions he was already suffering from reduced brain function. We haven’t really heard anything since, but I fear his prospects can’t be good. His injuries were also probably exacerbated by playing in France at a time when players were encouraged to ignore the concussion protocols.

He had it real bad. KO'd from chest tackles, that sort of thing.

[Flockwitt]

Head protectors are very unlikely to be any use. Look at NFL. Concussion isn't just about taking a whack to the head, it's about the brain getting mushed against the inside of the skull and any big contact is going to risk that. Helmets and scrumcaps have made things worse, not better.

Your second paragraph they’ll have to do regardless but I disagree with this comment. There’s no particular science in scrum caps beyond something to protect your ears and perhaps a false sense of security regards a head knock. There is a lot more that could be looked at here with regards the nature of spreading the force of the point of contact and similar.

[JM2K6]

Head protectors are very unlikely to be any use. Look at NFL. Concussion isn't just about taking a whack to the head, it's about the brain getting mushed against the inside of the skull and any big contact is going to risk that. Helmets and scrumcaps have made things worse, not better.

Your second paragraph they’ll have to do regardless but I disagree with this comment. There’s no particular science in scrum caps beyond something to protect your ears and perhaps a false sense of security regards a head knock. There is a lot more that could be looked at here with regards the nature of spreading the force of the point of contact and similar.

It's not about force at the point of contact though? It's about sudden acceleration/deceleration.

The stuff about sub-concussive events should be a real focus here.

[Uncle fester]

When Shontayne Hape retired in 2014 after a series of concussions he was already suffering from reduced brain function. We haven’t really heard anything since, but I fear his prospects can’t be good. His injuries were also probably exacerbated by playing in France at a time when players were encouraged to ignore the concussion protocols.

He had it real bad. KO'd from chest tackles, that sort of thing.

George North as well.
Dab of a sponge and he's back on the field.

The one that always gets me is the Florian Fritz incident. Noves really went down in my estimation after that.

[Margin__Walker]

Hadn't seen that Fritz incident before. That is a shocker.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Hadn't seen that Fritz incident before. That is a shocker.

It’s absolutely extraordinary. There is no way anyone should have allowed him back in the field.

[Niegs]

In Lower leagues Here you can't nose dive from a pick and go and tackle above the waist.

It sorts of work

Is there any game footage? I'd love to see how this plays out.

[Hal Jordan]

I've said it a couple of times, but Piers Francis for one needs to stop playing. He gets concussed the second he walks on the pitch.

Hopefully (and I suspect it's a slim hope) that this is only going to badly affect what are essentially the first cohort of the fully professional monster sized players from the turn of the century to the end of the 2000 decade who really were in the Wild West when it came to no one giving a shit about their brains getting smooshed week in, week out.

[sockwithaticket]

I've said it a couple of times, but Piers Francis for one needs to stop playing. He gets concussed the second he walks on the pitch.

Hopefully (and I suspect it's a slim hope) that this is only going to badly affect what are essentially the first cohort of the fully professional monster sized players from the turn of the century to the end of the 2000 decade who really were in the Wild West when it came to no one giving a shit about their brains getting smooshed week in, week out.

It was a mix of ignorance and indifference to most physiological elements as far as I can tell. Some of that early cohort have told plenty of tales via podcasts etc that people barely had a clue what kind of training was actually useful for rugby. I'm sure head knocks being a problem didn't occur to anyone in the early days.

Late 2000s onwards though... I think some people definitely knew better and weren't doing enough.

[Ymx]

When Shontayne Hape retired in 2014 after a series of concussions he was already suffering from reduced brain function. We haven’t really heard anything since, but I fear his prospects can’t be good. His injuries were also probably exacerbated by playing in France at a time when players were encouraged to ignore the concussion protocols.

He had it real bad. KO'd from chest tackles, that sort of thing.

George North as well.
Dab of a sponge and he's back on the field.

The one that always gets me is the Florian Fritz incident. Noves really went down in my estimation after that.

It’s sickening enough seeing the guy in that state and struggling with him off the field. But then to see that utter scumbag demanding he returns is utter sickeningly despicable.


Knees to the head are the worst. That and head to head. I just worry dropping the tackle will lead to many more knees and multiple heads at the same heights during collisions