The Official English Rugby Thread

[Openside]

Random/WTF/eh? post of the day winner.

Why?? I was agreeing that Auterac looked really good for a spell ??

To be fair you could have probably timed that spell in minutes!!!

[sockwithaticket]

It would be astonishing if that main Quins trio weren't involved.


I would be genuinely disappointed if O'Flaherty got picked. He's definitely no better than other wingers who've already dropped out of the squad (Hassell-Collins), let alone those already there. Equally don't see any point picking Nowell and as someone who's basically been injured all season he'll get more out of a full pre-season than being beasted in England camp. We'll also learn absolutely nothing new by chucking him on against Canada or the US.

O' flaherty had some very poor games earlier in the season.


Still confused by Eddie picking McConnachie for the RWC and ignoring him after that. One of the most pointless squad picks .

Especially as he was playing better after the world cup than at the time of his call up.

[sockwithaticket]

Pleased for but slightly confused by Kennigham's selection. He's looked good on the run in to the title but I'm not sure he's Test level (yet).

Anyway, he won't get picked, Jones will probably do an Andy Robinson and pick Ludlam, Curry and Underhill in a tombola number selection with Dombrant and Hill on the bench to come on at 6 and 7 respectively in the second half.

I get that Eddie sees a kid like that put in some pretty eye catching performances and he wants to bring them into camp, with no intention of playing them in a test, to cast an eye over them in his super tough environment.

Surely, though, it's more worthwhile to bring these players in once they've had a more sustained level of performance across a couple of seasons so that you can see it wasn't just a fluke or lack of analysis done by the opposition on a fresh player on whom they have very little game tape. As impressive as Kenningham stopping LCD's quick tap pen carries was, is he afforded that opportunity if Exeter know who he is and have a season's worth of games to analyse which show this is a thing he's good at? Perhaps instead they change their option and kick sticks or go for the lineout drive.

[JM2K6]

Pleased for but slightly confused by Kennigham's selection. He's looked good on the run in to the title but I'm not sure he's Test level (yet).

Anyway, he won't get picked, Jones will probably do an Andy Robinson and pick Ludlam, Curry and Underhill in a tombola number selection with Dombrant and Hill on the bench to come on at 6 and 7 respectively in the second half.

I get that Eddie sees a kid like that put in some pretty eye catching performances and he wants to bring them into camp, with no intention of playing them in a test, to cast an eye over them in his super tough environment.

Surely, though, it's more worthwhile to bring these players in once they've had a more sustained level of performance across a couple of seasons so that you can see it wasn't just a fluke or lack of analysis done by the opposition on a fresh player on whom they have very little game tape. As impressive as Kenningham stopping LCD's quick tap pen carries was, is he afforded that opportunity if Exeter know who he is and have a season's worth of games to analyse which show this is a thing he's good at? Perhaps instead they change their option and kick sticks or go for the lineout drive.

While Kenningham's chop tackles on LCD were very impressive, and I do think this is very premature, I think it's pretty unfair to say that's the reason for his selection. He's an academy kid who's been asked to fill the gap left by the most dominant breakdown 7 this season, who has put in several ridiculous tackling displays and shown some good heavy carrying ability (partly due to excellent footwork, which is no bad thing) and has scored some useful tries as well. In the 6 full games he played that Premiership rugby want to give me stats for (can't get the ones from our thrashing of Newcastle) he's made 106 tackles and missed 12, which is pretty damn impressive, including the standouts of 24/2 against Wasps and 20/0 in the final (to go with 10 carries).

He's obviously not better than the existing options at 7 for England (or Ben Curry), but he's already stood out more than the rest IMO.

Having said that, if his chop tackling is that good it stops Exeter using one of their favourite plays, that definitely isn't a negative! I think there's only so much a team can do if they know that a player a) tackles a lot and b) carries well with good footwork.

I was really worried when we lost Evans as the early Kenningham displays were that of a really good tackler and not much else, but he's added enough to his game already that I'm pretty happy with him being a live option for Quins selection. I can see why Eddie would be interested in taking a look for the future.

tl;dr: WOO QUINS!!! I mean uh, Kenningham seems like a real talent who's been outstanding in almost every match he's played this season, though I agree it seems premature regardless.

(edit: Everyone was this excited about Luke Wallace when he first came through, so, y'know...)

[Raggs]

[sockwithaticket]

Pleased for but slightly confused by Kennigham's selection. He's looked good on the run in to the title but I'm not sure he's Test level (yet).

Anyway, he won't get picked, Jones will probably do an Andy Robinson and pick Ludlam, Curry and Underhill in a tombola number selection with Dombrant and Hill on the bench to come on at 6 and 7 respectively in the second half.

I get that Eddie sees a kid like that put in some pretty eye catching performances and he wants to bring them into camp, with no intention of playing them in a test, to cast an eye over them in his super tough environment.

Surely, though, it's more worthwhile to bring these players in once they've had a more sustained level of performance across a couple of seasons so that you can see it wasn't just a fluke or lack of analysis done by the opposition on a fresh player on whom they have very little game tape. As impressive as Kenningham stopping LCD's quick tap pen carries was, is he afforded that opportunity if Exeter know who he is and have a season's worth of games to analyse which show this is a thing he's good at? Perhaps instead they change their option and kick sticks or go for the lineout drive.

While Kenningham's chop tackles on LCD were very impressive, and I do think this is very premature, I think it's pretty unfair to say that's the reason for his selection. He's an academy kid who's been asked to fill the gap left by the most dominant breakdown 7 this season, who has put in several ridiculous tackling displays and shown some good heavy carrying ability (partly due to excellent footwork, which is no bad thing) and has scored some useful tries as well. In the 6 full games he played that Premiership rugby want to give me stats for (can't get the ones from our thrashing of Newcastle) he's made 106 tackles and missed 12, which is pretty damn impressive, including the standouts of 24/2 against Wasps and 20/0 in the final (to go with 10 carries).

He's obviously not better than the existing options at 7 for England (or Ben Curry), but he's already stood out more than the rest IMO.

Having said that, if his chop tackling is that good it stops Exeter using one of their favourite plays, that definitely isn't a negative! I think there's only so much a team can do if they know that a player a) tackles a lot and b) carries well with good footwork.

I was really worried when we lost Evans as the early Kenningham displays were that of a really good tackler and not much else, but he's added enough to his game already that I'm pretty happy with him being a live option for Quins selection. I can see why Eddie would be interested in taking a look for the future.

tl;dr: WOO QUINS!!! I mean uh, Kenningham seems like a real talent who's been outstanding in almost every match he's played this season, though I agree it seems premature regardless.

(edit: Everyone was this excited about Luke Wallace when he first came through, so, y'know...)

I wasn't trying to suggest that chopping LCD is what got him into camp, as you say he's been impressive in a number of facets, but it is an example of something not a lot of players have been able to do this season - stop a tap and go carry (not just LCD's) dead with barely any ground made. It's the sort of thing that could be cultivated into a bit of a specialist skill the way some players are particularly good at disrupting mauls a point of difference. It's also the sort of thing that a player could struggle to demonstrate going forward once the opposition start doing more analysis.

It's somewhat dependent on position and talent, but we've all seen bright sparks have a great first season/several games before a dip or full on second season syndrome experience as the opposition become more aware of what threats the player offers and takes steps to mitigate them. Before calling anyone into camp I'd want to see them either not seem to succumb to that in the first place or demonstrate that they've come through it. Which requires more than the <10 senior games that Eddie seems to need in some cases.

[sockwithaticket]

Been rumoured for a while. What do we reckon, still a straight up home and away league or conferences? I'd veer towards the latter since a season the length of the Top14 is unwieldy and conflicts with international windows too much.

[JM2K6]

I think ring-fencing is a sane idea for English rugby and a 14 team league with no ring-fencing is the worst of both worlds.

[Raggs]

I think ring-fencing is a sane idea for English rugby and a 14 team league with no ring-fencing is the worst of both worlds.

The playoff will basically act as a ring fence.

[Brazil]

I think ring-fencing is a sane idea for English rugby and a 14 team league with no ring-fencing is the worst of both worlds.

How so? On the basis of the play offs it seems unlikely that the top team in the championship will be able to make the step up, and that's before you take into account that most of them will be ineligible due to stadium size.

[sockwithaticket]

It does feel a bit like the closest they can get to ring fencing without actually doing it and bringing upon them the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the handful of Championship/promotion-relegation die hards.

You'd have to think that unless some things change drastically only Worcester and the 14th team will be at any genuine risk of going down.

[JM2K6]

I think ring-fencing is a sane idea for English rugby and a 14 team league with no ring-fencing is the worst of both worlds.

How so? On the basis of the play offs it seems unlikely that the top team in the championship will be able to make the step up, and that's before you take into account that most of them will be ineligible due to stadium size.

I missed the play-offs bit, actually, which does make it less bad. But 14 teams is stretching it to begin with - I can see the schedule being bananas, which is no good for player welfare, and we all know that the 14th team is likely to be Ealing, i.e. a bad London Welsh tribute act with no fans, no players, and no ground, but a ton of cash and willing to blow it all. A properly ring fenced Premiership with actual effort put into thinking about what the 2nd tier should look like and having it be better funded but without chasing the impossible dream of becoming Exeter strikes me as much better than a 14-team Premiership that still carries the risk of relegation and encourages teams even worse than Ealing and Welsh to try and break the bank to compete.

I do like the idea of enforcing EQP numbers, though.

[Brazil]

I think ring-fencing is a sane idea for English rugby and a 14 team league with no ring-fencing is the worst of both worlds.

How so? On the basis of the play offs it seems unlikely that the top team in the championship will be able to make the step up, and that's before you take into account that most of them will be ineligible due to stadium size.

I missed the play-offs bit, actually, which does make it less bad. But 14 teams is stretching it to begin with - I can see the schedule being bananas, which is no good for player welfare, and we all know that the 14th team is likely to be Ealing, i.e. a bad London Welsh tribute act with no fans, no players, and no ground, but a ton of cash and willing to blow it all. A properly ring fenced Premiership with actual effort put into thinking about what the 2nd tier should look like and having it be better funded but without chasing the impossible dream of becoming Exeter strikes me as much better than a 14-team Premiership that still carries the risk of relegation and encourages teams even worse than Ealing and Welsh to try and break the bank to compete.

I do like the idea of enforcing EQP numbers, though.

I'd much prefer your plan, but can't see it happening when there's so much magical thinking in the Championship and its cheeleaders in the press make it out to be some sepia-tinted home of Real Rugby, rather than what it actually is, which is Premiership lite. I previously thought that the most English Rugby could sustain was two professional leagues of ten teams each. That's evidently far too ambitious, and will be for the foreseeable future, and in reality the championship needs reconfiguring more radically so that it serves a purpose in the wider structure of English rugby, possibly as a development pool for young players, but even that will be unlikely if the premiership teams have to expand their EQP squads. Until anyone is willing to admit that doing an Exeter is nothing more than a pipedream, then the 14 team prem, with in all likelihood some very lopsided results, is about the best fix.

The EQP numbers is good, though I wonder whether there's not a risk of diluting the quality of the teams, particularly given how thinly talent will be spread across 14 teams (or more likely concentrated in a few teams).

[JM2K6]

How so? On the basis of the play offs it seems unlikely that the top team in the championship will be able to make the step up, and that's before you take into account that most of them will be ineligible due to stadium size.

I missed the play-offs bit, actually, which does make it less bad. But 14 teams is stretching it to begin with - I can see the schedule being bananas, which is no good for player welfare, and we all know that the 14th team is likely to be Ealing, i.e. a bad London Welsh tribute act with no fans, no players, and no ground, but a ton of cash and willing to blow it all. A properly ring fenced Premiership with actual effort put into thinking about what the 2nd tier should look like and having it be better funded but without chasing the impossible dream of becoming Exeter strikes me as much better than a 14-team Premiership that still carries the risk of relegation and encourages teams even worse than Ealing and Welsh to try and break the bank to compete.

I do like the idea of enforcing EQP numbers, though.

I'd much prefer your plan, but can't see it happening when there's so much magical thinking in the Championship and its cheeleaders in the press make it out to be some sepia-tinted home of Real Rugby, rather than what it actually is, which is Premiership lite. I previously thought that the most English Rugby could sustain was two professional leagues of ten teams each. That's evidently far too ambitious, and will be for the foreseeable future, and in reality the championship needs reconfiguring more radically so that it serves a purpose in the wider structure of English rugby, possibly as a development pool for young players, but even that will be unlikely if the premiership teams have to expand their EQP squads. Until anyone is willing to admit that doing an Exeter is nothing more than a pipedream, then the 14 team prem, with in all likelihood some very lopsided results, is about the best fix.

The EQP numbers is good, though I wonder whether there's not a risk of diluting the quality of the teams, particularly given how thinly talent will be spread across 14 teams (or more likely concentrated in a few teams).

I think it'll inevitably reduce the quality for a while, but could perhaps see a closer link between club rugby and how the international team plays a la the Kiwis and their annoyingly joined up thinking throughout their pyramid. Can see it being more open rugby if teams can't just fill space with giant Saffer and Pacific Islander bodies. Given the reduction in the salary cap perhaps this is sanity beginning to prevail?

We'll get humped in Europe for a bit but who cares

[Raggs]

Wasps sign Vaea Fifita.

Good signing that's hopefully not too expensive with current form. In addition, rumour is he wants to switch to Tonga like Fekitoa, so I imagine release for 7s events was discussed in the talks. Covers lock and backrow, which is exactly what we were looking for.

[JM2K6]

Wasps sign Vaea Fifita.

Good signing that's hopefully not too expensive with current form. In addition, rumour is he wants to switch to Tonga like Fekitoa, so I imagine release for 7s events was discussed in the talks. Covers lock and backrow, which is exactly what we were looking for.

I don't think he'll break the bank. Good signing, will be interesting to see how he gets on away from NZ as he's a real homeboy type. If you've never listened to it, the podcast that Ardie Savea did with him is a good one: https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/v ... 0463614408 - lovely guy, but there's a chance that this might all be a bit strange for him? Certainly wish him well (club loyalties aside) and I hope he enjoys himself.

The Tonga rumours make sense given what he talks about in that podcast.

Really good player and will offer something different to your existing locks, like a super-charged younger James Gaskell

[ASMO]

I really really hate the idea of a play off, you have bust your balls all season, won your league and now have to play another game to get promoted, it is just a moneymaker. Win your league, you should be rewarded with promotion, come bottom you get relegated its simple as that.

[JM2K6]

I really really hate the idea of a play off, you have bust your balls all season, won your league and now have to play another game to get promoted, it is just a moneymaker. Win your league, you should be rewarded with promotion, come bottom you get relegated its simple as that.

Why?

Let's be clear here, it's not like the bottom third of the Premiership and the top third of the Championship are at all similar. There's a huge gulf between the Premiership sides and the rest. The Championship is full of teams that do not want to be promoted. That should tell you something.

There's no point promoting a team that has to spend big just to try and avoid losing every match and risking financial armageddon in doing so. Especially if the team has no ground and no fans.

[SaintK]

Another Hurricane AB joins Wasps

Eleven-times capped All Blacks forward Vaea Fifita has signed for Gallagher Premiership side Wasps.
The 29-year-old becomes Wasps' ninth summer signing and follows hot on the heels of Monday's announcement that former Springbok Nizaam Carr will be starting a third spell at the Coventry club ahead of the 2021/22 season.
Fifita, who made his New Zealand debut four years ago, is a second row who is also a capable flanker, starting on the blindside for the Hurricanes against the British and Irish Lions and scored a crucial late try in the 31-31 draw.
He joins fellow Kiwis Brad Shields and Jeff Toomaga-Allen in Wasps' squad, having won the Super Rugby title alongside the pair for the Hurricanes in 2016. Like Malakai Fekitoa, Fifita was born in Tonga before going on to represent the All Blacks.

[sockwithaticket]

I really really hate the idea of a play off, you have bust your balls all season, won your league and now have to play another game to get promoted, it is just a moneymaker. Win your league, you should be rewarded with promotion, come bottom you get relegated its simple as that.

Promotion without having to get past the bottom of the Prem is how we end up with sides like that 14/15 London Welsh team ascending to a league they're not cut out for and getting buggered every which way for a whole season, providing guaranteed bonus point wins for everyone else and effectively removing relegation as a threat from everyone else.

[sockwithaticket]

U20's squad named for Friday's game against the Irish

15 Charlie Atkinson (Wasps)
14 Tom Litchfield (Northampton Saints)
13 Jack Bates (Bristol Bears)
12 Dan Lancaster (Leeds Tykes)
11 Arthur Relton (Exeter Chiefs)
10 Fin Smith (Worcester Warriors)
9 Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers) (C)

1 Phil Brantingham (Newcastle Falcons)
2 Sam Riley (Harlequins)
3 Harvey Kindell-Beaton (Saracens)
4 Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby)
5 Alex Groves (Bristol Bears)
6 Ewan Richards (Bath Rugby)
7 Jack Clement (Gloucester Rugby)
8 Nahum Merigan (Bath Rugby)

REPLACEMENTS
16 Archie Vanes (Leicester Tigers)
17 Tarek Haffar (London Irish)
18 Luke Green (London Irish)
19 Freddie Thomas (Gloucester Rugby)
20 Ollie Stonham (Saracens)
21 Josh Gray (Gloucester Rugby)
22 Tom Carr-Smith (Bath Rugby)
23 Tommy Mathews (Hartpury University RFC)
24 Phil Cokanasiga (London Irish)
25 Tom Roebuck (Sale Sharks)
26 Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby)

[Hal Jordan]

My Twitter feed has allowed the RFU to suggest I get excited about the USA match by showing me a clip of squad practise. Of a box kick. And someone taking a couple of high balls.

[Kawazaki]

My Twitter feed has allowed the RFU to suggest I get excited about the USA match by showing me a clip of squad practise. Of a box kick. And someone taking a couple of high balls.

"Hey maate, it's test rugby. Completely different game to club rugby"

[SaintK]

Dates for England's Autumn Internationals at Twickenham announced.
3rd November TBC (An Emerging Nation)
13th November v Australia
20th November v S Africa
The RFU have confirmed my club's usual allocation so are obviously planning for a full-house.
Hopefully it will happen as planned but fingers crossed anyway!

[ASMO]

England being their usual brainless self, 2 penalties in 2 minutes.

[sockwithaticket]

England being their usual brainless self, 2 penalties in 2 minutes.

Sorted it out well tbf. Should be further ahead really.

[ASMO]

VPF having a poor game, some really slow and inaccurate service. On the plus side, defence very solid. What is it with England sides who have to have everything set up perfectly at a ruck before releasing the ball by which time the defence are just ready and waiting.

[ASMO]

Baby Orcs now chewing Irelands forwards up and spitting them out.

[Madness]

Riley the England hooker looks a good player

England backs not doing a lot but good defensively, Charlie Atkinson having a shocker

[sockwithaticket]

5 points for the table isn't to be sniffed, especially against an Irish team that's got the better of us in recent times.

it does feel like that games was closer than it ought to have been, though.

[ASMO]

Riley the England hooker looks a good player

England backs not doing a lot but good defensively, Charlie Atkinson having a shocker

He was very poor i agree, but a good win nonetheless

[ASMO]

Positives, defence, scrum and driving maul, negatives, created zero with all the dominance and posession we had, lineout wobbled at times and dumb penalties.

[Margin__Walker]

Backline wasn't up to much. Atkinson and the right wing especially had off days.

Really strong performance from the pack though. There are a good set of forwards coming through there.

[JM2K6]

Good to see Riley doing well. We have 3 hookers around the 20-22 mark at Quins and at least one needs to step up next season

[Hells Bells]

England team for the USA game:

1) Genge
2) Langdon
3) Heyes
4) McNally
5) Ewels
6) Ludlow (c)
7) Underhill
8) Chick
9) Randall
10) Smith
11) Malins
12) Lawrence
13) Slade
14) Cokanasiga
15) Steward

Subs: Blamire, Obano, Davison, Hill, Curry, Ludlam, Robson, Umaga.

Disappointed at no Radwan and don’t see the point in a 6/2 split on the bench.

[Raggs]

England team for the USA game:

1) Genge
2) Langdon
3) Heyes
4) McNally
5) Ewels
6) Ludlow (c)
7) Underhill
8) Chick
9) Randall
10) Smith
11) Malins
12) Lawrence
13) Slade
14) Cokanasiga
15) Steward

Subs: Blamire, Obano, Davison, Hill, Curry, Ludlam, Robson, Umaga.

Disappointed at no Radwan and don’t see the point in a 6/2 split on the bench.

I'd guess the 6/2 is to rescue the game if things aren't working correctly. Tighten it up, and just muscle through.

[geordie_6]

England team for the USA game:

1) Genge
2) Langdon
3) Heyes
4) McNally
5) Ewels
6) Ludlow (c)
7) Underhill
8) Chick
9) Randall
10) Smith
11) Malins
12) Lawrence
13) Slade
14) Cokanasiga
15) Steward

Subs: Blamire, Obano, Davison, Hill, Curry, Ludlam, Robson, Umaga.

Disappointed at no Radwan and don’t see the point in a 6/2 split on the bench.

As well as Radwan, not sure what Chick has done to get the nod at 8 over Dombrandt other than more time in camp.

[Hal Jordan]

England team for the USA game:

1) Genge
2) Langdon
3) Heyes
4) McNally
5) Ewels
6) Ludlow (c)
7) Underhill
8) Chick
9) Randall
10) Smith
11) Malins
12) Lawrence
13) Slade
14) Cokanasiga
15) Steward

Subs: Blamire, Obano, Davison, Hill, Curry, Ludlam, Robson, Umaga.

Disappointed at no Radwan and don’t see the point in a 6/2 split on the bench.

I'd guess the 6/2 is to rescue the game if things aren't working correctly. Tighten it up, and just muscle through.

If we have to tighten up and muscle through against a USA team that last played in 2019, something is seriously fucking wrong.

Fuck 6/2.

[sockwithaticket]

I see it more as Eddie's got more back row options than he knows what to do with and 6/2 is the best way he can come up with taking a look at all the players he wants to, especially with the A game having been scrapped.

Disappointed to see Cokanasiga in there ahead of other guys who've performed much, much better over the season.

Chick or Hill covering second row?

[Kawazaki]

I'm sure there are plenty of blazers in the shires who will still think Jones is a top coach after England beat USA playing one-out rugby interspersed with box-kicks whilst conceding 16 penalties. And as long as there are, he's safe as houses.