The Official English Rugby Thread

[Slick]

Given the 50/22 law changes, I suspect having effectively 2 fullbacks may become a norm.

What are your thoughts on that law? I realise it's meant to free up some space for attackers by forcing the defence to cover back a little more, but Lynagh's 50/22 kick from a turnover in the Quins half was absolutely farcical. He already made a 60-70m territorial gain as a result of a favourable bounce with nothing Newcastle could've done about it, giving Quins possession close to the Newcastle line on top of that is just mad.

A new law will come in to say you can't do a 50/22 on a turnover. Then 6 months later a new law will come in to say you actually can, but only after 3 phases of play after a turnover. And we will have yet another law brought in to help the game that ends up making it even more difficult to follow for the millions of new fans that are queuing up to enjoy rugby.

[Glaston]

'England Training Squad' is really just a euphemism for 'Eddie's Beasting Sessions Based On Exercise Methods Popular In The 1980s'.

Can we have the overs and unders estimate for how many of the 45 get injured?

Question is, how many players he will break?
Leaving the clubs pretty pissed off.


My impression is that at least one player gets crocked for 6months + after an Eddie training camp

[Raggs]

Given the 50/22 law changes, I suspect having effectively 2 fullbacks may become a norm.

What are your thoughts on that law? I realise it's meant to free up some space for attackers by forcing the defence to cover back a little more, but Lynagh's 50/22 kick from a turnover in the Quins half was absolutely farcical. He already made a 60-70m territorial gain as a result of a favourable bounce with nothing Newcastle could've done about it, giving Quins possession close to the Newcastle line on top of that is just mad.

Didn't actually watch any of the matches last weekend (festival weekend), so haven't seen it at the club game. Instincts suggest to me that most clubs had 2 players hanging back already, and that most can defend when down to 14 OK too. So I don't think there's suddenly that much more space to run at. However I do think the potential rewards from kicking have massively increased, especially on turnover ball in your own half.

I don't think it'll have the positive effect people are hoping for basically.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Given the 50/22 law changes, I suspect having effectively 2 fullbacks may become a norm.

What are your thoughts on that law? I realise it's meant to free up some space for attackers by forcing the defence to cover back a little more, but Lynagh's 50/22 kick from a turnover in the Quins half was absolutely farcical. He already made a 60-70m territorial gain as a result of a favourable bounce with nothing Newcastle could've done about it, giving Quins possession close to the Newcastle line on top of that is just mad.

Didn't actually watch any of the matches last weekend (festival weekend), so haven't seen it at the club game. Instincts suggest to me that most clubs had 2 players hanging back already, and that most can defend when down to 14 OK too. So I don't think there's suddenly that much more space to run at. However I do think the potential rewards from kicking have massively increased, especially on turnover ball in your own half.

I don't think it'll have the positive effect people are hoping for basically.

The evidence from the 'Quins game - a datapoint of precisely 1 - is that teams consider the risk of a 50-22 lower than the risk of losing people from the defensive line.

Newcastle could easily have defended Lynagh's kick it by having a player covering each 22 touchline. The decided not to which I suspect is going to be the standard approach.

Also perhaps Newcastle were relying on Joe Marler to give away a dumbass penalty on the line

[Raggs]

What are your thoughts on that law? I realise it's meant to free up some space for attackers by forcing the defence to cover back a little more, but Lynagh's 50/22 kick from a turnover in the Quins half was absolutely farcical. He already made a 60-70m territorial gain as a result of a favourable bounce with nothing Newcastle could've done about it, giving Quins possession close to the Newcastle line on top of that is just mad.

Didn't actually watch any of the matches last weekend (festival weekend), so haven't seen it at the club game. Instincts suggest to me that most clubs had 2 players hanging back already, and that most can defend when down to 14 OK too. So I don't think there's suddenly that much more space to run at. However I do think the potential rewards from kicking have massively increased, especially on turnover ball in your own half.

I don't think it'll have the positive effect people are hoping for basically.

The evidence from the 'Quins game - a datapoint of precisely 1 - is that teams consider the risk of a 50-22 lower than the risk of losing people from the defensive line.

Newcastle could easily have defended Lynagh's kick it by having a player covering each 22 touchline. The decided not to which I suspect is going to be the standard approach.

Also perhaps Newcastle were relying on Joe Marler to give away a dumbass penalty on the line

Was that not from a turnover though? You don't leave 2 players back when attacking, you'd hamstring your attack completely.

[JM2K6]

Didn't actually watch any of the matches last weekend (festival weekend), so haven't seen it at the club game. Instincts suggest to me that most clubs had 2 players hanging back already, and that most can defend when down to 14 OK too. So I don't think there's suddenly that much more space to run at. However I do think the potential rewards from kicking have massively increased, especially on turnover ball in your own half.

I don't think it'll have the positive effect people are hoping for basically.

The evidence from the 'Quins game - a datapoint of precisely 1 - is that teams consider the risk of a 50-22 lower than the risk of losing people from the defensive line.

Newcastle could easily have defended Lynagh's kick it by having a player covering each 22 touchline. The decided not to which I suspect is going to be the standard approach.

Also perhaps Newcastle were relying on Joe Marler to give away a dumbass penalty on the line

Was that not from a turnover though? You don't leave 2 players back when attacking, you'd hamstring your attack completely.

Exactly. If they'd dropped back to cover that off the turnover, Lynagh would probably have scored.

[robmatic]

Given the 50/22 law changes, I suspect having effectively 2 fullbacks may become a norm.

What are your thoughts on that law? I realise it's meant to free up some space for attackers by forcing the defence to cover back a little more, but Lynagh's 50/22 kick from a turnover in the Quins half was absolutely farcical. He already made a 60-70m territorial gain as a result of a favourable bounce with nothing Newcastle could've done about it, giving Quins possession close to the Newcastle line on top of that is just mad.

Didn't actually watch any of the matches last weekend (festival weekend), so haven't seen it at the club game. Instincts suggest to me that most clubs had 2 players hanging back already, and that most can defend when down to 14 OK too. So I don't think there's suddenly that much more space to run at. However I do think the potential rewards from kicking have massively increased, especially on turnover ball in your own half.

I don't think it'll have the positive effect people are hoping for basically.

Potentially a big reward on turnover ball, assuming that the kick is executed well, otherwise it's just the traditional hoof away to release pressure that we are accustomed to.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

The evidence from the 'Quins game - a datapoint of precisely 1 - is that teams consider the risk of a 50-22 lower than the risk of losing people from the defensive line.

Newcastle could easily have defended Lynagh's kick it by having a player covering each 22 touchline. The decided not to which I suspect is going to be the standard approach.

Also perhaps Newcastle were relying on Joe Marler to give away a dumbass penalty on the line

Was that not from a turnover though? You don't leave 2 players back when attacking, you'd hamstring your attack completely.

Exactly. If they'd dropped back to cover that off the turnover, Lynagh would probably have scored.

Which is the point of the law. Rewarding attacking play.

On a partially related note, the refereeing of the breakdown - at least in the Quins game - is helping. Players are learning to get the hell out of the way or be penalised. This is opening up more turnover opportunities.

[Kawazaki]

At the end of the day it's really just an incentive to kick the ball. Not really what the game needs.

[JM2K6]

Was that not from a turnover though? You don't leave 2 players back when attacking, you'd hamstring your attack completely.

Exactly. If they'd dropped back to cover that off the turnover, Lynagh would probably have scored.

Which is the point of the law. Rewarding attacking play.

?!

It rewarded kicking the ball away off a turnover instead of keeping it in hand. It rewarded a turnover deep inside their half and lucky bounce with a 5m lineout to Quins.

The point of the law is not to 'reward attacking play', it's to create more space for the attacking team by making the defence drop back more often. But on turnovers, they can't or don't have the time to do so, so the law is just encouraging a kick.

[Kawazaki]

The England team 10 years ago that just scraped past Argentina 13-9 in RWC2011.

England:

15. Foden
14. Ashton
13. Tuilagi
12. Tindall
11. Armitage
10. Wilkinson
9. Wigglesworth (Youngs 49)
1. Sheridan (Stevens 61)
2. Thompson (Hartley 61)
3. Cole
4. Deacon (Palmer 66)
5. Lawes
6. Croft
7. Haskell
8. Easter

Lawes has got some serious mileage on the clock hasn't he, he'd been playing for England for two years already by 2011. Ben Jesus Wept Youngs is there too of course.

[Hal Jordan]

Lawes hasn't always been first choice, though, a lot of his caps came off the bench. He's also had some injuries that, whilst they have no doubt done no good to the specific area, will have kept the general wear and tear at bay.

[Raggs]

Some very impressive stats from Radwan!

[Kawazaki]

Some very impressive stats from Radwan!

He's the nearest thing that England has to Cheslin Kolbe and he's bang in form.

Naturally, Eddie Jones will pick an out of form Cokanasiga instead.

[sockwithaticket]

Some very impressive stats from Radwan!

He's the nearest thing that England has to Cheslin Kolbe and he's bang in form.

Naturally, Eddie Jones will pick an out of form Cokanasiga instead.

Done his knee again, so that option's been taken away from Eddie.

[Kawazaki]

Mind you, what use would Cheslin Kolbe be in an Eddie Jones team anyway?

[JM2K6]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... ning-squad

Eddie saying he's gone after the World Cup. Always nice to have a coach who, off the back of a disastrous 6N, is comfortable enough to expect to be in position for another couple of years.

That article makes it sound like we really should be reading a lot into the absentees. Poor George Ford, Jesus. I also don't see the logic in binning Jamie George; he's some way from his best, LCD has been the better option for some time, but who's the next best? I struggle to see who's better than George for the backup shirt. Mako is understandable, Billy practically demanded dropping at this point.

[sockwithaticket]

There isn't anyone. I can appreciate trying to give George a bit of a rocket, but given the paucity of other options I can't believe he'll really be dropped come the Autumn. Of course he might've done more to turn around his slump if LCD had been made the starter for the whole 6 Nations this year rather than switching between the two.

I don't see what Ford has or hasn't done to warrant being dropped even with Marcus Smith being in great form. Hopefully this is just some Eddie shithousery in the press to try and make this training squad look like more of a big deal.


Eddie on Farrell

He has not been at his best over the last period of time but I am convinced that we can get him back to his best and then we will decide the leadership of the team.

He had Covid before the Six Nations, his team was in the Championship, they had spasmodic training sessions, he didn’t get high‑quality games. They played back-to-back seasons.

Then why the shitting fuck was he in the team?!

[Kawazaki]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/ ... ning-squad

As per usual in pretty much every England squad/match/tournament review press article, not a mention or question regards Ben Youngs. If your name is Farrell then it's under the microscope, but the cap thief at 9 gets yet another free fucking pass.

[assfly]

Some very impressive stats from Radwan!

That's insane. In one game!

[Margin__Walker]

Oddly doesn't match the stats on the official Prem Rugby site.

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/gallag ... yer-stats/

Perhaps 'metres run' is different to the standard 'metres gained' measure. Either way, he's bang in form.

[Hal Jordan]

Some very impressive stats from Radwan!

That's insane. In one game!

And a try assist, in which he fielded the ball in his own half, ran past the entire Quins team barring the last man and passed to the supporting player who cantered in. All whilst I was screaming blue murder at my tablet (watching on the app).

He doesn't look fast, he seems to run in a sort of slouch, then you notice he's skinned three people and is disappearing towards the try line.

[JM2K6]

Yeah. Murley gave him a yard too much space on the touchline and got roasted.

[Raggs]

Watched that game now. Try to mostly focus on him. The ball came to him a lot, rather than him looking for it. So I don't know if we can say his habit of just waiting for the ball is solved, but he's got insane acceleration and a mean step. He's not quite Kolbe/Wade with his stepping, but he's not far off, and he looks powerful too, solid tackling as well.

There's still some England backlines I'd love to see. Something like Robson, Smith/Ford, Watson, Manu, Odogwu, Radwan, Malins etc I know some aren't proven at international yet, but can you imagine doing defense analysis on that?

"RIght, so double up on Manu, and Odogwu, and don't leave someone on their own otherwise Radwan/Watson will step them, oh, and watch out for Malins because he'll use his support well if he doesn't go himself, oh, and make sure you man up on Smith, because he's got a wicked step and isn't afraid to go. Oh, and finally, don't leave any gaps around the fringes of the ruck, otherwise Robson will go through them... Got it?"

[JM2K6]

With a bench of Ford/Smith, Randall, and A.N. Other (Nick David.)

[Kawazaki]

Oddly doesn't match the stats on the official Prem Rugby site.

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/gallag ... yer-stats/

Perhaps 'metres run' is different to the standard 'metres gained' measure. Either way, he's bang in form.

Do those stats include any players from either Quims or Falcons?

[JM2K6]

The match stats have him down for129 metres, with 10 defenders beaten and 3 clean breaks, and there's a few other stats from that match that would score on those lists. So no, those overall stats don't have Quins/Falcons game stats on there with the strange exception of Lynagh's two tries.

[Margin__Walker]

Oddly doesn't match the stats on the official Prem Rugby site.

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/gallag ... yer-stats/

Perhaps 'metres run' is different to the standard 'metres gained' measure. Either way, he's bang in form.

Do those stats include any players from either Quims or Falcons?

Yes, they do. For some reason the link clicks back to an unfinished overall view. When you filter for Round 1, the Guys who played on Sunday are in there

[Kawazaki]

Lozowski's tackling stat is remarkable for a flyhalf - 17! He's quite a physical tackler as well isn't he. A pity Eddiot shit the bed with him as he could have been an option for the difficult to fill 12 slot. Handy goal kicker too which is a string to his bow I didn't know he had.

[JM2K6]

He was a 10 before he went to Sarries (and when he went to France), so you'd expect the goalkicking to be part of his game. Sadly it seems his Twelvetrees-esque defensive performance against Japan ruined him in Eddie's eyes - he's a quality player and would offer a hell of a lot to England.

[Raggs]

He was a 10 before he went to Sarries (and when he went to France), so you'd expect the goalkicking to be part of his game. Sadly it seems his Twelvetrees-esque defensive performance against Japan ruined him in Eddie's eyes - he's a quality player and would offer a hell of a lot to England.

He was a sort of 10 for Wasps, looked more suited to the 12 shirt (or maybe 15) in my mind. Great pace, solid defence, big boot. Just didn't seem to manage the game well. If he's got that down now, then he's certainly a good 10 option.

[Kawazaki]

He was a 10 before he went to Sarries (and when he went to France), so you'd expect the goalkicking to be part of his game. Sadly it seems his Twelvetrees-esque defensive performance against Japan ruined him in Eddie's eyes - he's a quality player and would offer a hell of a lot to England.

I remember one bad lapse in concentration and the Japanese 12 went through him and under the sticks but I don't recall he was missing them all game.

I really do hate Jones. He's such a binary idiot. He'll keep picking dross year-in year-out then crucify a newbie for one mistake. He's an absolute menace - clearly brilliant at managing up but dogshit managing the other way.

[Kawazaki]

I'm showing my age here - I actually played against Lozowski's dad when I first moved up into senior rugby!

[JM2K6]

He was a 10 before he went to Sarries (and when he went to France), so you'd expect the goalkicking to be part of his game. Sadly it seems his Twelvetrees-esque defensive performance against Japan ruined him in Eddie's eyes - he's a quality player and would offer a hell of a lot to England.

I remember one bad lapse in concentration and the Japanese 12 went through him and under the sticks but I don't recall he was missing them all game.

I really do hate Jones. He's such a binary idiot. He'll keep picking dross year-in year-out then crucify a newbie for one mistake. He's an absolute menace - clearly brilliant at managing up but dogshit managing the other way.

Yep, he only missed a couple but Eddie threw his toys out of the pram because they were big ones.

I genuinely fear for Marcus Smith's international career under Eddie & Cockerill.

[Raggs]

He was a 10 before he went to Sarries (and when he went to France), so you'd expect the goalkicking to be part of his game. Sadly it seems his Twelvetrees-esque defensive performance against Japan ruined him in Eddie's eyes - he's a quality player and would offer a hell of a lot to England.

I remember one bad lapse in concentration and the Japanese 12 went through him and under the sticks but I don't recall he was missing them all game.

I really do hate Jones. He's such a binary idiot. He'll keep picking dross year-in year-out then crucify a newbie for one mistake. He's an absolute menace - clearly brilliant at managing up but dogshit managing the other way.

Yep, he only missed a couple but Eddie threw his toys out of the pram because they were big ones.

I genuinely fear for Marcus Smith's international career under Eddie & Cockerill.

Loz had a couple of howlers in Argentina I believe as well. It wasn't just Japan.

[geordie_6]

He was a 10 before he went to Sarries (and when he went to France), so you'd expect the goalkicking to be part of his game. Sadly it seems his Twelvetrees-esque defensive performance against Japan ruined him in Eddie's eyes - he's a quality player and would offer a hell of a lot to England.

I remember one bad lapse in concentration and the Japanese 12 went through him and under the sticks but I don't recall he was missing them all game.

I really do hate Jones. He's such a binary idiot. He'll keep picking dross year-in year-out then crucify a newbie for one mistake. He's an absolute menace - clearly brilliant at managing up but dogshit managing the other way.

Yep, he only missed a couple but Eddie threw his toys out of the pram because they were big ones.

I genuinely fear for Marcus Smith's international career under Eddie & Cockerill.

I'm more concerned about his health and wellbeing under those two. Cockhead isn't opposed to beasting players and Eddie's record on training injuries is terrible.

[Kawazaki]

The England set up Pennyhill Park under the management of Jones hasn't been the highest elite standard of rugby in England for some years now - perhaps even throughout all of the Jones tenure. The training methods appear hackneyed and there is very little innovation, flair or new ideas in how to approach and play the game. Again, Jones is good at bluffing and managing the blazers but when confronted by the few members of the press that will question his methods he very quickly losses his composure and turns on the sarcasm tap. I think the Premiership clubs are producing a lot of English talent at the moment, far more than they have at any other time since the game went pro but they're being let down badly by the RFU and Jones outside of those club environments.

[sockwithaticket]

Wasps team to face Bristol.

Unavailable due to injury: Charlie Atkinson, Alfie Barbeary, James Gaskell, Joe Launchbury, Rob Miller, Ryan Mills, Matteo Minozzi, Paolo Odogwu, Theo Vukasinovic, Jack Willis, Thomas Young.

The pack looks a way off its best iteration, but in light of the injuries that can't really be helped. I'll be interested to finally get a look at Crossdale and see why Eddie was including him in England squads having barely played for Sarries.

[Happyhooker]

Wasps team to face Bristol.

Unavailable due to injury: Charlie Atkinson, Alfie Barbeary, James Gaskell, Joe Launchbury, Rob Miller, Ryan Mills, Matteo Minozzi, Paolo Odogwu, Theo Vukasinovic, Jack Willis, Thomas Young.

The pack looks a way off its best iteration, but in light of the injuries that can't really be helped. I'll be interested to finally get a look at Crossdale and see why Eddie was including him in England squads having barely played for Sarries.

That's one hell of an injury list

[sockwithaticket]

Wasps team to face Bristol.

Unavailable due to injury: Charlie Atkinson, Alfie Barbeary, James Gaskell, Joe Launchbury, Rob Miller, Ryan Mills, Matteo Minozzi, Paolo Odogwu, Theo Vukasinovic, Jack Willis, Thomas Young.

The pack looks a way off its best iteration, but in light of the injuries that can't really be helped. I'll be interested to finally get a look at Crossdale and see why Eddie was including him in England squads having barely played for Sarries.

That's one hell of an injury list

Yup. Launchbury, Willis and Odogwu won't be seen until December. The others are all supposedly anywhere between 2 - 6 weeks.