The Official English Rugby Thread

[Kawazaki]

So we're all agreed, Eddie is shite?

He was fine in the early years. Been here too long now

He lives at Pennyhill as well doesn't he?

He's costing the RFU an absolute fortune. There's just no value there.

[Ovals]

So we're all agreed, Eddie is shite?

He was fine in the early years. Been here too long now

His persistence with Youngs, without bringing on any alternatives, has been unbelievably short sighted. Daly at FB is also mindbendingly daft. And then there's Farrell...............

He's had a very strong set of players to pick from but has held us back with some dumb selections and tactics.

[Kawazaki]

3-match ban for Dan Kelly. So he would have been sent off.

Very light ban IMHO. There was no mitigation, it was just old fashioned thuggery.

[Slick]

So we're all agreed, Eddie is shite?

He was fine in the early years. Been here too long now

Which is what everyone in the world said before the RFU extended his contract

[SaintK]

3-match ban for Dan Kelly. So he would have been sent off.

Very light ban IMHO. There was no mitigation, it was just old fashioned thuggery.

Assume he got 50% off for contrition and previous record?

[SaintK]

3-match ban for Dan Kelly. So he would have been sent off.

Very light ban IMHO. There was no mitigation, it was just old fashioned thuggery.

Maybe only 2 matches

Leicester Tigers and Kelly will apply to take part in World Rugby’s Head Contact Process Coaching Intervention Programme.
The programme is aimed at modifying specific techniques and technical issues that contribute to the foul play.
If the application is successful and programme completed by Kelly, the final of the sanction would be substituted by the coaching intervention and see Kelly available for selection after two rounds.

[Kawazaki]

3-match ban for Dan Kelly. So he would have been sent off.

Very light ban IMHO. There was no mitigation, it was just old fashioned thuggery.

Maybe only 2 matches

Leicester Tigers and Kelly will apply to take part in World Rugby’s Head Contact Process Coaching Intervention Programme.
The programme is aimed at modifying specific techniques and technical issues that contribute to the foul play.
If the application is successful and programme completed by Kelly, the final of the sanction would be substituted by the coaching intervention and see Kelly available for selection after two rounds.

Farcical.

Goes to show that if Aled Davies had held his head and rolled about a bit, waited for the physio etc then the cause of his head 'injury' would have been looked at and Saracens would have won the match. Kelly also wouldn't have got a cross in the 'Player Injured' box so wouldn't have got such a light penalty.

Unfortunately, copying the play acting of footballers pays off.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

are those intervention remissions limited to one per player or club?

[Paddington Bear]

Thing with Eddie is that the France game showed he can still do it when he wants to - he's been proving a point to himself since the WC final otherwise IMHO. We'll see what England turns up in the autumn.

[Kawazaki]

Thing with Eddie is that the France game showed he can still do it when he wants to - he's been proving a point to himself since the WC final otherwise IMHO. We'll see what England turns up in the autumn.

You touch on an important point with Jones, he does things to satisfy his own desires, not those in the best interests of the England team or England rugby. He treats the English national team as his own fiefdom. And due to the inept structure and weakness of the CEO at the RFU, it largely is his fiefdom. His disdain for rugby outside of his control (the Premiership) serves to confirm this in my opinion.

[Niegs]

3-match ban for Dan Kelly. So he would have been sent off.

Very light ban IMHO. There was no mitigation, it was just old fashioned thuggery.

Maybe only 2 matches

Leicester Tigers and Kelly will apply to take part in World Rugby’s Head Contact Process Coaching Intervention Programme.
The programme is aimed at modifying specific techniques and technical issues that contribute to the foul play.
If the application is successful and programme completed by Kelly, the final of the sanction would be substituted by the coaching intervention and see Kelly available for selection after two rounds.

Farcical.

Goes to show that if Aled Davies had held his head and rolled about a bit, waited for the physio etc then the cause of his head 'injury' would have been looked at and Saracens would have won the match. Kelly also wouldn't have got a cross in the 'Player Injured' box so wouldn't have got such a light penalty.

Unfortunately, copying the play acting of footballers pays off.

I'd not heard of this program and, right from the onset, it sounds like a slap in the face to the professional coach (and player, somewhat, depending on whether the cited offence was more accidental or reckless/intentional). I can see a club going through with it to get a player back a week early, though it says this can only be done once, but I'd be inclined to tell them to fudge off. I've taught them this already!

This intervention will be overseen by an independent expert coaching review group and will only be available on a one-off basis to players.

A player participating in the coaching intervention will work with their coach to identify how technique contributed to the foul play. The coach and player will then provide video evidence of the interventions and modifications that they undertook. The coaching intervention will be assessed by an independent review group of expert coaches (see editors notes), who will work with the coach where necessary to ensure that the highlighted areas of technique have been addressed. The completion of a successful coaching intervention will reduce the player’s sanction by a week/match.

[sockwithaticket]

it sounds like a slap in the face to the professional coach

I'm very sceptical as to how much of an effort pro coaches have put into changing their players' tackle behaviour. They'll all say the right things in front of the press, but there's still a lot of very upright tackling going on, plenty of it leading with the shoulder in a way that makes not being picked up for dangerous play more luck than judgement.

[Kawazaki]

It's the rugby league influence. Towards the end of my time playing 1st XV rugby, my club had a guest training session with a former RL GB player called Paul Loughlin. This would have been around 2003/4. It was one of the best training sessions I'd ever had. I probably learnt more about defence in 90 minutes with him than I had in the previous decade++ of training sessions with enthusiastic amateur coaches. As a player, I was regarded back then as one of the best tackler/defenders in the club but that night I realised that I basically knew nothing about defence.

Anyway, one thing I'll never forget was how Loughlin told us how to go into contact. He asked us to imagine we were boxing and to throw a jab. If you do this and you're right-handed then you will naturally step forward with your left leg and push out the left arm to jab and vice-versa if you're left-handed. Left leg/left arm - right leg/right arm. That is how he told us to tackle - drive in with the left shoulder with the left leg forward or right shoulder with the right leg forward much like you were stepping forward into a jab.

Now, this all sounds very natural but most/all of you that still play will almost certainly hit tackles off your hindmost foot with the opposite shoulder forward. Left-shoulder/right foot back and vice-versa. Try it next time you train if you don't believe me!

It's hard to change the muscle memory and get the timing right but when you do get it right you do develop much more power in the hit if you drive in off the lead foot with the same side shoulder. However, it's very hard to go low using this method, it lends itself to a much more upright style much like the boxing jab.

[Sinkers]

I’d have thought that’s pretty standard coaching. I coach right foot/ right shoulder to our U8 and U10s.

One of the benefits is that step in helps to bring the body position down.

[Kawazaki]

I’d have thought that’s pretty standard coaching. I coach right foot/ right shoulder to our U8 and U10s.

One of the benefits is that step in helps to bring the body position down.

[Sinkers]

You don’t agree? Or did I miss/ misunderstand something from your post?

[Raggs]

I’d have thought that’s pretty standard coaching. I coach right foot/ right shoulder to our U8 and U10s.

One of the benefits is that step in helps to bring the body position down.

It is fairly standard. Teaching the same to my kids. Plenty of conversations on twitter between coaches (another one even kicked off yesterday) about tackle technique and how that's a common trope, but not always applicable. I believe there was a good podcast released interviewing Lewis Ludlow about tackle choice and technique that covered it too.

It's mechanically better if you want to put in a dominant hit, but not every hit is targeted to be dominant, and it's far more important to make the tackle than spend another split second shuffling your legs and missing it etc. For me it's very much a try to do, not a must do (like getting your head on the correct side is a must do).

[Sinkers]

I’m not looking for dominant at that age for sure - but I find it helps to get a) the correct shoulder in/ head on the correct side and b) the upper body position down

[Kawazaki]

You don’t agree? Or did I miss/ misunderstand something from your post?

With your weight on the lead leg under the same lead shoulder, it's not easier to get lower, exactly the opposite in fact.

[Sinkers]

Not in my experience - when you’re teaching kids to get lower body, use the correct shoulder and her head in the correct side.

But you carry on in your belief that it’s some radical new idea fit for 1st team Johnnies and pro RL coaches only

[Paddington Bear]

Tbh my tackle technique has pretty much always been to basically jump on the ball carrier and bring them down with me, but then I'm not very good at rugby

[Slick]

It's the rugby league influence. Towards the end of my time playing 1st XV rugby, my club had a guest training session with a former RL GB player called Paul Loughlin. This would have been around 2003/4. It was one of the best training sessions I'd ever had. I probably learnt more about defence in 90 minutes with him than I had in the previous decade++ of training sessions with enthusiastic amateur coaches. As a player, I was regarded back then as one of the best tackler/defenders in the club but that night I realised that I basically knew nothing about defence.

Anyway, one thing I'll never forget was how Loughlin told us how to go into contact. He asked us to imagine we were boxing and to throw a jab. If you do this and you're right-handed then you will naturally step forward with your left leg and push out the left arm to jab and vice-versa if you're left-handed. Left leg/left arm - right leg/right arm. That is how he told us to tackle - drive in with the left shoulder with the left leg forward or right shoulder with the right leg forward much like you were stepping forward into a jab.

Now, this all sounds very natural but most/all of you that still play will almost certainly hit tackles off your hindmost foot with the opposite shoulder forward. Left-shoulder/right foot back and vice-versa. Try it next time you train if you don't believe me!

It's hard to change the muscle memory and get the timing right but when you do get it right you do develop much more power in the hit if you drive in off the lead foot with the same side shoulder. However, it's very hard to go low using this method, it lends itself to a much more upright style much like the boxing jab.

We had a similar session with Sean Edwards around the same time, and I also learnt more in that session than years of other coaching. He showed a similar technique on our biggest and baddest forward holding a tackle bag, and with a one step run up sent him flying backwards at a rate of knots. It was incredible.

[Slick]

Not in my experience - when you’re teaching kids to get lower body, use the correct shoulder and her head in the correct side.

But you carry on in your belief that it’s some radical new idea fit for 1st team Johnnies and pro RL coaches only

To be fair, it was new 20 years ago which is what he is talking about

[Kawazaki]

Not in my experience - when you’re teaching kids to get lower body, use the correct shoulder and her head in the correct side.

But you carry on in your belief that it’s some radical new idea fit for 1st team Johnnies and pro RL coaches only

It was nearly 20 years ago. Hardly radical or new nowadays. Tackling off the front and lead foot was definitely not the norm in RU back in the old amateur days. To be honest, tackling technique wasn't really even coached. It was drift defence then man-for-man in your own 22. That was it.

[geordie_6]

Tbh my tackle technique has pretty much always been to basically jump on the ball carrier and bring them down with me, but then I'm not very good at rugby

When it comes down to it, a running hug often works...

[sockwithaticket]

Latest bans.



Penny inexplicably not charged with making contact with the eye area and so manages to get away with just 2 weeks. You can see in the matches unavailable box that he was reprimanded for backchat to the officials which makes the mitigation for good conduct and remorse laughable (I know, I know, it's about what they say in the hearing).

[Kawazaki]

Latest bans.



Penny inexplicably not charged with making contact with the eye area and so manages to get away with just 2 weeks. You can see in the matches unavailable box that he was reprimanded for backchat to the officials which makes the mitigation for good conduct and remorse laughable (I know, I know, it's about what they say in the hearing).

I'd have been happy if they rescinded that red card. I've got no time for players that hold in players at rucks like Gopperth did and then respond like he did when he gets a response to his cheating. Gopperth deserved a card as well.

[Raggs]

Latest bans.



Penny inexplicably not charged with making contact with the eye area and so manages to get away with just 2 weeks. You can see in the matches unavailable box that he was reprimanded for backchat to the officials which makes the mitigation for good conduct and remorse laughable (I know, I know, it's about what they say in the hearing).

I'd have been happy if they rescinded that red card. I've got no time for players that hold in players at rucks like Gopperth did and then respond like he did when he gets a response to his cheating. Gopperth deserved a card as well.

Respond like he did? You mean getting struck in the head and a finger in the eye?

Gopperth deserved a penalty against him, maybe a yellow at most. Just because someone is holding onto you doesn't mean you can hit them (open palm or not) in the head.

[sockwithaticket]

It's a massively dispproportionate response to being held onto.

As a DoR I wouldn't want a player on the pitch if that's how they react to being held, they'd be a liability.

Some occasions are more blatant than others, but players get taken out well past the ruck or held in all the time as officials don't really scrutinise it unless a try's been scored. Until it is more rigorously policed, part of the job is to handle it without committing acts of foul play that end up punishing the whole team.

[Kawazaki]

It's a massively dispproportionate response to being held onto.

As a DoR I wouldn't want a player on the pitch if that's how they react to being held, they'd be a liability.

Some occasions are more blatant than others, but players get taken out well past the ruck or held in all the time as officials don't really scrutinise it unless a try's been scored. Until it is more rigorously policed, part of the job is to handle it without committing acts of foul play that end up punishing the whole team.

All the red card did is encourage the likes of Gopperth to do more of it. It was obvious the contact with the eye area was minor and incidental and the very low penalty reflects that. There's a risk that in this era where certain people get their panties in such a twist at the merest hint of anything that looks too aggressive that rugby will lose too many of the elements that historically have always made it the game it is.

[JM2K6]

While there's no doubt that playacting exists in modern rugby (and has for some time), reacting to getting a finger / fingernail in the eye is pretty automatic. It's not something you can just shrug off.

[inactionman]

Quins Bristol tonight, on BT

Not caught a quins match this season, looking forward to seeing if they've kept up the high-tempo. Assume Smith is in at 10? Not seen line-ups yet.

[Kawazaki]

While there's no doubt that playacting exists in modern rugby (and has for some time), reacting to getting a finger / fingernail in the eye is pretty automatic. It's not something you can just shrug off.

I've been gouged (by a scrumhalf in a 7s tourney of all places) and it's not nice. I've also copped an accidental finger in the eye whilst tackling somebody. I punched the scrumhalf. I didn't punch the other fella.

[Kawazaki]

Has there been any feedback from the England 3-day training camp? Any injuries? Would Dan Kelly and Ted Hill get banned from the camp as part of their ban?

[Raggs]

While there's no doubt that playacting exists in modern rugby (and has for some time), reacting to getting a finger / fingernail in the eye is pretty automatic. It's not something you can just shrug off.

I've been gouged (by a scrumhalf in a 7s tourney of all places) and it's not nice. I've also copped an accidental finger in the eye whilst tackling somebody. I punched the scrumhalf. I didn't punch the other fella.

I hadn't realised that Gopperth had punched Penny, he should have been banned for that. I must have missed that footage though...

[Kawazaki]

While there's no doubt that playacting exists in modern rugby (and has for some time), reacting to getting a finger / fingernail in the eye is pretty automatic. It's not something you can just shrug off.

I've been gouged (by a scrumhalf in a 7s tourney of all places) and it's not nice. I've also copped an accidental finger in the eye whilst tackling somebody. I punched the scrumhalf. I didn't punch the other fella.

I hadn't realised that Gopperth had punched Penny, he should have been banned for that. I must have missed that footage though...

I never said he punched him, much like I didn't punch the guy who accidentally 'gouged' me either.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Quins Bristol tonight, on BT

Not caught a quins match this season, looking forward to seeing if they've kept up the high-tempo. Assume Smith is in at 10? Not seen line-ups yet.

Smith on the bench.

Sadly I'm ill and can't go.

Quins lineup :

Harlequins Starting XV
1. Joe Marler (227)
2. Jack Walker (2)
3. Simon Kerrod (46)
4. Matt Symons (65)
5. Dino Lamb (50)
6. Tom Lawday (41)
7. Jack Kenningham (14)
8. Alex Dombrandt (78) - Captain
9. Danny Care (308)
10. Tommy Allan (2)
11. Cadan Murley (50)
12. Andre Esterhuizen (21)
13. Joe Marchant (115)
14. Louis Lynagh (15)
15. Tyrone Green (23)

Impact Players
16. Sam Riley (3)
17. Fin Baxter (3)
18. Will Collier (189)
19. Hugh Tizard (15)
20. James Chisholm (113)
21. Scott Steele (17)
22. Marcus Smith (110)
23. Luke Northmore (29)

Bristol Bears :

Piutau, Adeolokun, O'Conor, Bedlow, Purdy, Sheedy, Randall, Thomas, Kerr, Sinckler, Joyce, Vui, Harding, Heenan, Luatua, Thacker, Woolmore, Lahiff, Holmes, Thomas, Uren, Lloyd, Leiua

[JM2K6]

Surprised at Lawday continuing to keep his spot ahead of Chisholm. Must be based on discipline, Chisholm seems the superior player in all other aspects. Hope Walker improves

[sockwithaticket]

Slade is captaining Exeter for the game featuring their thank the NHS strip...

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Surprised at Lawday continuing to keep his spot ahead of Chisholm. Must be based on discipline, Chisholm seems the superior player in all other aspects. Hope Walker improves

I think there's a strong element of 'don't change a winning lineup' Lawday is reliable, if unspectacular.

Considering how many years we had with a disastrous lineout, even with plenty of time together, I think Walker has made a good start.