AB 2020 selection discussion

[Gumboot]

I think Boshier's best chance to play for the AB's is to be Sam Cane's understudy at 7. Especially if Savea moves fulltime to 8. Even then, he would only come into reckoning for selection as a replacement starting no.7 for Cane. I can't see the value of Boshier as the bench loosie because he does not provide enough impact with ball in hand.

Yep, Matt Todd 2.0

[FujiKiwi]

I think Boshier's best chance to play for the AB's is to be Sam Cane's understudy at 7. Especially if Savea moves fulltime to 8. Even then, he would only come into reckoning for selection as a replacement starting no.7 for Cane. I can't see the value of Boshier as the bench loosie because he does not provide enough impact with ball in hand.

Yep, Matt Todd 2.0

Which is not a bad thing, of course.

[Gumboot]

I think Boshier's best chance to play for the AB's is to be Sam Cane's understudy at 7. Especially if Savea moves fulltime to 8. Even then, he would only come into reckoning for selection as a replacement starting no.7 for Cane. I can't see the value of Boshier as the bench loosie because he does not provide enough impact with ball in hand.

Yep, Matt Todd 2.0

Which is not a bad thing, of course.

Not bad at all, Todd was a fine All Black.

[FujiKiwi]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a loose forward trio of Frizell, Sotutu and Papalii, with maybe Ardie Savea—or even Marino Mikaele-Tu'u on the bench.

Going up against the world champs, or Team Itoje, we need some big, strong but skillful players.

What's standing in the way of this, of course, is Fozzie and his choice of a war-weary penalty magnet as captain.

FFS.

[Carter's Choice]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a loose forward trio of Frizell, Sotutu and Papalii, with maybe Ardie Savea—or even Marino Mikaele-Tu'u on the bench.

Going up against the world champs, or Team Itoje, we need some big, strong but skillful players.

What's standing in the way of this, of course, is Fozzie and his choice of a war-weary penalty magnet as captain.

FFS.

Credit to Sam Cane, he delivers a great losing captain's speech.

[Guy Smiley]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a loose forward trio of Frizell, Sotutu and Papalii, with maybe Ardie Savea—or even Marino Mikaele-Tu'u on the bench.

Going up against the world champs, or Team Itoje, we need some big, strong but skillful players.

What's standing in the way of this, of course, is Fozzie and his choice of a war-weary penalty magnet as captain.

FFS.

Going up against serious teams, you’d like a bit of test experience in your back row somewhere.

[FujiKiwi]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a loose forward trio of Frizell, Sotutu and Papalii, with maybe Ardie Savea—or even Marino Mikaele-Tu'u on the bench.

Going up against the world champs, or Team Itoje, we need some big, strong but skillful players.

What's standing in the way of this, of course, is Fozzie and his choice of a war-weary penalty magnet as captain.

FFS.

Going up against serious teams, you’d like a bit of test experience in your back row somewhere.

Good point. Cane and Savea need to be part of a transition to the new model, and if they get to hold their places on merit, so much the better. But with Covid likely to cut back on the tests that get played before 2023, I think the blooding of new players should take place in an accelerated fashion. Cut some corners with it. It's all hypothetical. Not going to happen anyway. Stodgy Fozzie is going to plod his pedestrian path to defeat.

[Wild Beef]

Another year, another call for the culling of experienced but out of form players to be replaced by the hottest young talent.

You guys would make terrible husbands.

[hurinui]

Props: Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Joe Moody, Nepo Laulala, Karl Tuinukuafe

Hookers: Dane Coles, Cody Taylor, Asafo Aumua

Locks: Sam Whitelock, Patrick Tuipolotu, Gerard Cowley-Tuioti

Loosies: Shannon Frizell, Lachlan Boshier, Dalton Papalii, Hoskins Sotutu, EDIT: Ardie Savea

Halfbacks: Snecky, Flapanara, Finlay Christie

10s: Richie Mo'unga, Beauden Barrett, Josh Ioane

Midfield: ALB, Braydon Ennor, TJ Faiane, Peter Umaga-Jensen

Wings: Sevu Reece, George Bridge, Caleb Clarke

Fullback: Will Jordan

I've done that in a hurry, but that's my squad.

That's a very small squad. In 2019 Hansen initially picked a 39 player squad for the RC. I'm going to choose a 34 man squad, 18 forwards and 16 backs. This is the squad I think Foster and Fox will select if he picks a squad of that size;

Props: Moody, Tu'ungafasi, Laulala, Tu'inukuafe, Lomax
Hookers: Taylor, Coles, Aumua
Locks: Whitelock, Tuipulotu, Parkinson, Strange
Loose forwards: Cane (C), Savea, Frizell, Sotutu, Boshier, Papali'i

Halfbacks: Smith, Perenara, Weber
First-fives: Mo'unga, B. Barrett
Midfielders: Goodhue, Lienart-Brown, Ennor, Laumape, Ioane
Wingers: Reece, Bridge, Clarke
Fullbacks: J. Barrett, McKenzie, Jordan

This is 100% the squad I would pick.

Only change I would make is replacing Papali'i with Mikaele Tu'u.

[Gumboot]

Yeah, I also agree with that squad, although I'm not sure Laumape will be back in time to make the cut.

The North vs South game on 29 August should also make for some fun selection debates.

[FujiKiwi]

There's some lack of clarity in some comments on this thread.

AC was posting the squad he thought Foster would pick.

Are other boredies suggesting Sam Cane would be in a squad they would pick?

And if so, would they keep him as captain?

[Gumboot]

There's some lack of clarity in some comments on this thread.

AC was posting the squad he thought Foster would pick.

Are other boredies suggesting Sam Cane would be in a squad they would pick?

And if so, would they keep him as captain?

Yes. And yes.

[Carter's Choice]

There's some lack of clarity in some comments on this thread.

AC was posting the squad he thought Foster would pick.

Are other boredies suggesting Sam Cane would be in a squad they would pick?

And if so, would they keep him as captain?

Yes. And yes.

[FujiKiwi]

Are people seriously seeing Cane as better than Boshier, Papalii and Savea? In what regards?

Please don't say, "25% of other Super players say he's a great guy."

[Guy Smiley]

Yes, yes and yes

[Gumboot]

Are people seriously seeing Cane as better than Boshier, Papalii and Savea? In what regards?

Please don't say, "25% of other Super players say he's a great guy."

I'm seriously seeing him as the ABs captain and starting openside for the next few years. He's playing well in a losing side and come test time he'll be in peak form. The new look ABs will be hugely successful and Foster will be universally lauded when he brings the Webb Ellis Cup home in 2023. Seriously.

[Guy Smiley]

I agree with you regarding Cane, mate...

bbbbbbut

[Gumboot]

I well remember all the dire predictions of doom and gloom when Shag took over. Sure, he should've stepped aside in 2017 as originally planned, but the first RWC he took them to worked out OK.

[FujiKiwi]

I'll agree to disagree.

Cane might have a great engine and put in some big hits, but we need a more multi-dimensional 7, and he's well behind the three other potential 7s I mentioned in that regard.

As for Foster as coach, I think Gumboot, you're the first All Black rugby fan I've ever seen voice any approval of that appointment at all. You are certainly a lone voice on that.

[Gumboot]

Suits me.

I'm a firm believer in giving guys a chance to actually perform before vilifying them.

[Guy Smiley]

I well remember all the dire predictions of doom and gloom when Shag took over. Sure, he should've stepped aside in 2017 as originally planned, but the first RWC he took them to worked out OK.

I get where you’re coming from but my reservations are more specific. I was consistently critical of the direction the team headed after 2015 and as Foster’s influence became clear. Those criticisms were founded on the preference for fast ball movement over solid breakdown work and defense... the inclusion of two playmaker types in the backline who both prefer lateral running over distribution delivering haphazard attack more opportunistic than crafted and the reluctance to settle on combinations and develop them.

I see dark times ahead. Dark, dark times. Perhaps even some hail with snow to low lying districts.

[FujiKiwi]

But it's not "vilifying" someone to say that they're not up to the job.

And if Dalton Papalii is the best 7 for the ABs, which he arguably is, shouldn't he be "given a chance"?

[Guy Smiley]

But it's not "vilifying" someone to say that they're not up to the job.

And if Dalton Papalii is the best 7 for the ABs, which he arguably is, shouldn't he be "given a chance"?

This is everything that’s wrong with your take on rugby and selections...

This bloke looks like he could go alright so this other bloke is shit.

[Gumboot]

Papalii's in my RC squad, but Cane's the skipper every day of the week for mine.

I'm not a Foster fan by any means and would've been happier if they'd gone for Robertson. But they didn't, and as a diehard ABs supporter I'm happy to wait and see how he goes now. Continually grizzling about something that hasn't even happened, as if it's a foregone conclusion that Fozzie will fuck up big time, is a bit silly imo.

[FujiKiwi]

But it's not "vilifying" someone to say that they're not up to the job.

And if Dalton Papalii is the best 7 for the ABs, which he arguably is, shouldn't he be "given a chance"?

This is everything that’s wrong with your take on rugby and selections...

This bloke looks like he could go alright so this other bloke is shit.

I like to compare the merits of players when discussing selection. What is your MO?

[hurinui]

But it's not "vilifying" someone to say that they're not up to the job.

And if Dalton Papalii is the best 7 for the ABs, which he arguably is, shouldn't he be "given a chance"?

I don't think you need Papali'i in an All Black squad. We already have Cane, Savea and Boshier who each cover 7.

I wouldn't make room for Papali'i over any of Frizell, Tu'u, Sotutu. We need big ball-carrying 6/8's not yet another 6/7 hybrid.

[Gumboot]

I think Tu'u and Sotutu (if he's fit) will be vying for the one spot, and if so I'd pick Sotutu.

My loosies (and the ones I think the selectors will pick) are Cane, Savea, Frizell, Sotutu, Papalii and Boshier.

[Guy Smiley]

But it's not "vilifying" someone to say that they're not up to the job.

And if Dalton Papalii is the best 7 for the ABs, which he arguably is, shouldn't he be "given a chance"?

This is everything that’s wrong with your take on rugby and selections...

This bloke looks like he could go alright so this other bloke is shit.

I like to compare the merits of players when discussing selection. What is your MO?

Merit is a different quality to potential. You are arguing potential against merit. On top of that, you are arguing to play three rookies in your back row... based on potential.

This is test rugby. Players have to be developed... and that is best done alongside experienced players who can support the new player. This is proven wisdom. A team overloaded with rookies may well set the world on fire every now and then but the grind of high level games will bring them undone.

My MO is based on proven qualities and combinations. You look a player’s abilities and record under pressure and try to work out how they might balance another player in an untried combination. For instance, I’d love to see Sotutu get a start at 8 as he could be a superstar but I’d want experience both sides of him... Cane and Frizell with Ardie on the bench.

[FujiKiwi]

Merit is a different quality to potential. You are arguing potential against merit. On top of that, you are arguing to play three rookies in your back row... based on potential.

This is test rugby. Players have to be developed... and that is best done alongside experienced players who can support the new player. This is proven wisdom. A team overloaded with rookies may well set the world on fire every now and then but the grind of high level games will bring them undone.

My MO is based on proven qualities and combinations. You look a player’s abilities and record under pressure and try to work out how they might balance another player in an untried combination. For instance, I’d love to see Sotutu get a start at 8 as he could be a superstar but I’d want experience both sides of him... Cane and Frizell with Ardie on the bench.

I agree with some of this. Of course experience is crucial in getting wins, and bringing young players through. I would like to see an AB starting loose forward trio of Sotutu, Frizell and Papalii—or something like it, as soon as possible. Not necessarily the first game back. I've already suggested the experience in the squad of Savea and/or Cane would be advantageous.

In fact it's because experience is vital that I'd like to see the blooding of young players fast tracked. It's very possible Sam Cane might not make the 2023 RWC, or, heaven forbid, might be injured during the tournament. In that case do you want your Papalii or your Boshier starting with 5 test caps under their belt, or 15? The reason I'm using such low numbers for this scenario is that I really believe the number of tests we play before 2023 will be much lower than in a normal rugby world cup cycle.

By locking Sam Cane in as captain, it means he will be guaranteed more game time even if he isn't the best 7 in the country. That's my problem with Foster's decision.

We've been seeing the merits of Papalii in comparison to Cane throughout the Super rugby tournaments. It's not hypothetical to suggest Papalii has some assets Cane doesn't. Your semantic game of differentiating merit from potential isn't helpful to the discussion.

[Ymx]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a loose forward trio of Frizell, Sotutu and Papalii, with maybe Ardie Savea—or even Marino Mikaele-Tu'u on the bench.

Going up against the world champs, or Team Itoje, we need some big, strong but skillful players.

What's standing in the way of this, of course, is Fozzie and his choice of a war-weary penalty magnet as captain.

FFS.

Credit to Sam Cane, he delivers a great losing captain's speech.

This is it for me. We can’t have an AB captain so used to losing within 7.

A captains role is to get the team over the line. But Cane hasn’t achieved that.

I think Foster was wrong in calling him captain so long before any internationals.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Suits me.

I'm a firm believer in giving guys a chance to actually perform before vilifying them.

I agree with you Gumboot.

At the very least, Cane has earned the right to play a few tests and demonstrate he still has the chops at that level.

We've often seen a test All Black have a pretty ordinary Super campaign and then go on to bust shit up when it comes to the internationals.

Ma'a Nonu comes instantly to mind.

[Monkey Magic]

Cane and Savea both have runs on the board and are not getting so outplayed that you just drop them straight away.

I think they will go cane, savea, Frizzell with Ardie at 8. In that situation I think you need to have an 8/6 on the bench who is also a line-out target. At this stage maybe Sotutu coming on with ardie moving to 6 if needed

[FujiKiwi]

Suits me.

I'm a firm believer in giving guys a chance to actually perform before vilifying them.

I agree with you Gumboot.

At the very least, Cane has earned the right to play a few tests and demonstrate he still has the chops at that level.

We've often seen a test All Black have a pretty ordinary Super campaign and then go on to bust shit up when it comes to the internationals.

Ma'a Nonu comes instantly to mind.

Would you also have given him the captaincy?

[Gumboot]

Cane and Savea both have runs on the board and are not getting so outplayed that you just drop them straight away.

I think they will go cane, savea, Frizzell with Ardie at 8. In that situation I think you need to have an 8/6 on the bench who is also a line-out target. At this stage maybe Sotutu coming on with ardie moving to 6 if needed

Works for me.

[ASMO]

a remarkably civilised Fred, i was expecting far more venom and levels of outrage and spite.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Suits me.

I'm a firm believer in giving guys a chance to actually perform before vilifying them.

I agree with you Gumboot.

At the very least, Cane has earned the right to play a few tests and demonstrate he still has the chops at that level.

We've often seen a test All Black have a pretty ordinary Super campaign and then go on to bust shit up when it comes to the internationals.

Ma'a Nonu comes instantly to mind.

Would you also have given him the captaincy?

Sure, why not? I mean the other main contender, Sam Whitelock, was one of our worst players in the RWC semi-final against England so I see no reason why he should take over as captain. Beyond that, there are precious few other realistic candidates. Maybe Dane Coles, but I'm not sure you want your captain cooling his heels every second game on the naughty step.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a loose forward trio of Frizell, Sotutu and Papalii, with maybe Ardie Savea—or even Marino Mikaele-Tu'u on the bench.

Going up against the world champs, or Team Itoje, we need some big, strong but skillful players.

What's standing in the way of this, of course, is Fozzie and his choice of a war-weary penalty magnet as captain.

FFS.

Credit to Sam Cane, he delivers a great losing captain's speech.

This is it for me. We can’t have an AB captain so used to losing within 7.

A captains role is to get the team over the line. But Cane hasn’t achieved that.

I think Foster is a wrong 'un.

Fixed.

[Monkey Magic]

I agree with you Gumboot.

At the very least, Cane has earned the right to play a few tests and demonstrate he still has the chops at that level.

We've often seen a test All Black have a pretty ordinary Super campaign and then go on to bust shit up when it comes to the internationals.

Ma'a Nonu comes instantly to mind.

Would you also have given him the captaincy?

Sure, why not? I mean the other main contender, Sam Whitelock, was one of our worst players in the RWC semi-final against England so I see no reason why he should take over as captain. Beyond that, there are precious few other realistic candidates. Maybe Dane Coles, but I'm not sure you want your captain cooling his heels every second game on the naughty step.

Can't see Coles suddenly getting suspended or carded more often- problem for him is that Taylor is just as likely to start.

Coles isn't doing as many of the freakish things that he was capable of a couple of years ago.

Looking at the lineups people are posting, how many senior players are left and actually the clear and obvious top contender for their position

[FujiKiwi]

Looking at the lineups people are posting, how many senior players are left and actually the clear and obvious top contender for their position

There are some pairings like Smith/Perenara and Taylor/Coles where there's a ton of experience in the position and still some fire in the belly and form on the field. But even if the likes of any of those 4 were AB captaincy material, they tend to get subbed off relatively early in games.

My pick for captain would have been Sam Whitelock. To be fair, he might be wanting to take a sabbatical once Covid dies down?

[Enzedder]

One thing that can’t be changed is coach unfortunately.

Though we can start with captain...

Why would you - opinion piece from one knowledgeable scribe

OPINION: Sam Cane is proving his doubters wrong, one tackle at a time.

Once again, he was a workhorse on defence, making 20 tackles and winning three turnovers at the breakdown, as the Chiefs lost another Super Rugby Aotearoa heartbreaker against the Crusaders.

Plenty has been said in recent weeks about how he's the wrong choice for All Blacks captain and how he's not even the best No.7 in the country.

While the first point may be true, why is he being judged so harshly? The All Blacks haven't played a second under his leadership yet.

But there's no doubt in my mind, he's the best openside flanker in the country and he's proving it week after week.