AB 2020 selection discussion

[FujiKiwi]

Mark Reason?

[Enzedder]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a loose forward trio of Frizell, Sotutu and Papalii, with maybe Ardie Savea—or even Marino Mikaele-Tu'u on the bench.

Going up against the world champs, or Team Itoje, we need some big, strong but skillful players.

What's standing in the way of this, of course, is Fozzie and his choice of a war-weary penalty magnet as captain.

FFS.

Credit to Sam Cane, he delivers a great losing captain's speech.

This is it for me. We can’t have an AB captain so used to losing within 7.

A captains role is to get the team over the line. But Cane hasn’t achieved that.

I think Foster was wrong in calling him captain so long before any internationals.

What a load of fucking dribble from all three know-nothings. Have you thought that maybe Cane is getting a team that is miles away from the needed level and bringing them to the point that they are nearly winning (and with some better reffing would probably have some by now)

[Ymx]

Credit to Sam Cane, he delivers a great losing captain's speech.

This is it for me. We can’t have an AB captain so used to losing within 7.

A captains role is to get the team over the line. But Cane hasn’t achieved that.

I think Foster was wrong in calling him captain so long before any internationals.

What a load of fucking dribble from all three know-nothings. Have you thought that maybe Cane is getting a team that is miles away from the needed level and bringing them to the point that they are nearly winning (and with some better reffing would probably have some by now)

No, and that’s wrong anyway. Unless I’m mistaken and the chiefs haven’t been up or within a couple of points at half time (I’m sure they have)??

And what were you saying about responding to the post and not the poster chief?

[FujiKiwi]

Yeah. Sorry, Enz. The loss to the Highlanders is just one particularly egregious example of why your point doesn't really make sense.

[Gumboot]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a loose forward trio of Frizell, Sotutu and Papalii, with maybe Ardie Savea—or even Marino Mikaele-Tu'u on the bench.

Going up against the world champs, or Team Itoje, we need some big, strong but skillful players.

What, like Scott Barrett at 6 in the SF? I thought it's widely accepted that not having Cane starting that game was a selection blunder and a significant factor in our loss.

[FujiKiwi]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of a loose forward trio of Frizell, Sotutu and Papalii, with maybe Ardie Savea—or even Marino Mikaele-Tu'u on the bench.

Going up against the world champs, or Team Itoje, we need some big, strong but skillful players.

What, like Scott Barrett at 6 in the SF? I thought it's widely accepted that not having Cane starting that game was a selection blunder and a significant factor in our loss.

Yeah that was a bad call. Once he gets some experience, I think Frizell will be a far better 6 than Scott Barrett could ever be.

[Gumboot]

Yep, Frizell's in great form and I hope he's the starting 6 for the ABs. I was impressed with his efforts as a late call-up in Japan, and he's come on in leaps and bounds since then. Of all the currently available contenders for blindside, he reminds me the most of Kaino.

[Enzedder]

Yeah. Sorry, Enz. The loss to the Highlanders is just one particularly egregious example of why your point doesn't really make sense.

I have a lot of examples as to why Whitelock should never be captain, not just one.

[FujiKiwi]

I think, to be fair, that Whitelock isn't in contention anyway, because he still wants to take a sabbatical year before 2023.

Reflecting on this, it does cause a bit of a headache for Cane naysayers like myself. If not Cane, then who?

[Monkey Magic]

I think, to be fair, that Whitelock isn't in contention anyway, because he still wants to take a sabbatical year before 2023.

Reflecting on this, it does cause a bit of a headache for Cane naysayers like myself. If not Cane, then who?

Think Cane is getting slammed more than he deserves, but also yeah there is no one else who is planning on still being in the country.

Makes you realize just how light on hardened pros who were definite starters the world cup team was last year.

[FujiKiwi]

The issue with giving Cane the captaincy is that it’s going to “fence off” that position in the AB line up so that guys like Papalii or Boshier won’t get meaningful time to develop.

This wouldn’t matter as much if Cane were clearly the best 7 in the country. But it’s debatable.

In the interest of a balanced discussion, the same thing would need to be said about giving Dane Coles or Cody Taylor the captaincy as well. Obviously, depending on form, neither is the clear cut best player. And what a Cane captaincy does for a Papalii, a Coles captaincy would do for an Asafo Aumua.

It ain’t easy.

EDIT: Leaving aside Coles is a walking brain explosion.

[Ymx]

Yeah. Sorry, Enz. The loss to the Highlanders is just one particularly egregious example of why your point doesn't really make sense.

I have a lot of examples as to why Whitelock should never be captain, not just one.

Please share.

Though he’s certainly not been at the helm for such a large losing streak, with many close losses.

[Enzedder]

An easy one is the yellow card (upgraded to red) for the elbow on the Cheetahs player.

I cannot see how we can compare Whitelock's captaincy efforts versus Canes this year anyway. He is resting

This is what some knowledgeable rugby brains say

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... all-blacks

[FujiKiwi]

An easy one is the yellow card (upgraded to red) for the elbow on the Cheetahs player.

I cannot see how we can compare Whitelock's captaincy efforts versus Canes this year anyway. He is resting

This is what some knowledgeable rugby brains say

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... all-blacks

You make it sound like he got endorsed by a panel of all time rugby greats.

It was James Parsons.

But I think we can take his word for it that Sam Cane tackles hard and wants his team to win. Which are Parsons' main points. Thanks, James.

[Gumboot]

Sam Cane has 68 test caps and served his apprenticeship under arguably the greatest openside flanker and captain in All Blacks history. I can't recall him ever having a poor test. Papalii has 3 caps and Boshier has none. It's a no brainer for mine.

[FujiKiwi]

Sam Cane has 68 test caps and served his apprenticeship under arguably the greatest openside flanker and captain in All Blacks history. I can't recall him ever having a poor test. Papalii has 3 caps and Boshier has none. It's a no brainer for mine.

How many caps would you like Papalii or Boshier to have if they have to start a semifinal against England in 2023?

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Sam Cane has 68 test caps and served his apprenticeship under arguably the greatest openside flanker and captain in All Blacks history. I can't recall him ever having a poor test. Papalii has 3 caps and Boshier has none. It's a no brainer for mine.

How many caps would you like Papalii or Boshier to have if they have to start a semifinal against England in 2023?

They will obviously have a lot more by then (form permitting) in the same way Cane was able to add to his caps while being understudy to another fairly decent All Blacks 7 and captain.

[Ymx]

Sam Cane has been outstanding as a player previously, including the last World Cup.

He should have been on the field.

However, in 2020, he’s not managed to produce the same height of excellence, but more importantly he’s not managed to get his team over the line as captain.

[FujiKiwi]

Sam Cane has 68 test caps and served his apprenticeship under arguably the greatest openside flanker and captain in All Blacks history. I can't recall him ever having a poor test. Papalii has 3 caps and Boshier has none. It's a no brainer for mine.

How many caps would you like Papalii or Boshier to have if they have to start a semifinal against England in 2023?

They will obviously have a lot more by then (form permitting) in the same way Cane was able to add to his caps while being understudy to another fairly decent All Blacks 7 and captain.

Yeah, but how many tests are we going to get over the next few years? Significantly less than other cycles, I think.

[Gumboot]

I'm not sure that's terribly relevant when all of our international opponents are in the same boat.

And I'm not buying the suggestion that Cane's form has dropped off this year. He's playing well imho.

[FujiKiwi]

Bump. We had a robust discussion of the Sam Cane question.

I’m sure it’s not over.

But there’s lots more to discuss now that Aotearoa seems to be going into another potentially rugby-less period.

The most interesting topic to me is the new talent coming through. Leaving aside the loose forwards, I think the most obvious new talents that could/should be included in AB discussion are Pari Pari Parkinson, Will Jordan, and, to a lesser extent, Caleb Clarke and Peter Umaga-Jensen.

Anyone else?

[Carter's Choice]

Bump. We had a robust discussion of the Sam Cane question.

I’m sure it’s not over.

But there’s lots more to discuss now that Aotearoa seems to be going into another potentially rugby-less period.

The most interesting topic to me is the new talent coming through. Leaving aside the loose forwards, I think the most obvious new talents that could/should be included in AB discussion are Pari Pari Parkinson, Will Jordan, and, to a lesser extent, Caleb Clarke and Peter Umaga-Jensen.

Anyone else?

I'd add Hoskins Sotutu, Marino Mikaele-Tu'u and Cullen Grace to that list.

Peter Umaga-Jensen had a great end to Super Rugby Aotearoa, but he's only 5 months younger than Brayden Ennor, and I reckon Ennor has shown more across his career at this stage.

[wet-socks]

Bump. We had a robust discussion of the Sam Cane question.

I’m sure it’s not over.

But there’s lots more to discuss now that Aotearoa seems to be going into another potentially rugby-less period.

The most interesting topic to me is the new talent coming through. Leaving aside the loose forwards, I think the most obvious new talents that could/should be included in AB discussion are Pari Pari Parkinson, Will Jordan, and, to a lesser extent, Caleb Clarke and Peter Umaga-Jensen.

Anyone else?

I'd add Hoskins Sotutu, Marino Mikaele-Tu'u and Cullen Grace to that list.

Peter Umaga-Jensen had a great end to Super Rugby Aotearoa, but he's only 5 months younger than Brayden Ennor, and I reckon Ennor has shown more across his career at this stage.

Umaga-Jenson has single-handedly won Hurricanes matches this year, and in other games at least 10 points. As solid as Ennor is, Umaga-Jenson's ceiling looks to be higher, his line breaking ability is staggering and his influence for the Hurricanes in 2020 had surpassed even Laumape.

Also, PUJ is a big and strapping, line-busting centre. Ennor is an excellent distributor, solid reader on defense, and runs great lines. But he's only 92 kgs, which is quite light for an international test centre. PUJ brings an X-factor that gives him a point-of-difference over Ennor.

[Carter's Choice]

Also, PUJ is a big and strapping, line-busting centre. Ennor is an excellent distributor, solid reader on defense, and runs great lines. But he's only 92 kgs, which is quite light for an international test centre. PUJ brings an X-factor that gives him a point-of-difference over Ennor.

Woah, is that you douche_chill?

PUJ had a good last couple of games, but that's the extent of his career achievements thus far. You're not seriously suggesting that Ennor lacks x factor, are you?

[Gumboot]

PUJ had a good last couple of games, but that's the extent of his career achievements thus far. You're not seriously suggesting that Ennor lacks x factor, are you?

Yeah, it's far too soon to be picking Umaga-Jensen. But - good as he is - I've never really thought of Ennor as being an x-factor player tbh.

[Carter's Choice]

PUJ had a good last couple of games, but that's the extent of his career achievements thus far. You're not seriously suggesting that Ennor lacks x factor, are you?

Yeah, it's far too soon to be picking Umaga-Jensen. But - good as he is - I've never really thought of Ennor as being an x-factor player tbh.

Ennor is White Reiko. He's got speed and x factor for days.

[Kiwias]

PUJ had a good last couple of games, but that's the extent of his career achievements thus far. You're not seriously suggesting that Ennor lacks x factor, are you?

Yeah, it's far too soon to be picking Umaga-Jensen. But - good as he is - I've never really thought of Ennor as being an x-factor player tbh.

Ennor is White Reiko. He's got speed and x factor for days.

Ennor is somewhat like a young Conrad Smith -- not standing out the way a young Nonu or PUJ does for his physical prowess but quietly and efficiently going about his business.

[FujiKiwi]

Speaking of "the white Reiko" , are we assuming the original Reiko should play a part in the AB squad when it eventually gets assembled? He's quick, strong and an experienced All Black, but I also think he shows limitations as a distributor, isn't that creative and may not have the right temperament.

He's days as an All Black Winger are surely gone. Does he have a future as an All Black centre?

[Guy Smiley]

PUJ had a good last couple of games, but that's the extent of his career achievements thus far. You're not seriously suggesting that Ennor lacks x factor, are you?

Yeah, it's far too soon to be picking Umaga-Jensen. But - good as he is - I've never really thought of Ennor as being an x-factor player tbh.

Ennor is White Reiko. He's got speed and x factor for days.

Meh. I like Ennor as he can play 13 and outside, he’s very quick and he reads play well. He also has an air of selfishness to his play and a tendency to be a dick... he’s a head patter. In that sense, yes, we have our White Reiko.

We should call him the Basteraud of Christchurch.

[Gumboot]

Speaking of "the white Reiko" , are we assuming the original Reiko should play a part in the AB squad when it eventually gets assembled? He's quick, strong and an experienced All Black, but I also think he shows limitations as a distributor, isn't that creative and may not have the right temperament.

He's days as an All Black Winger are surely gone. Does he have a future as an All Black centre?

I'd have Ioane starting at centre or on the bench atm. He's definitely ahead of Ennor for mine.

[Carter's Choice]

Speaking of "the white Reiko" , are we assuming the original Reiko should play a part in the AB squad when it eventually gets assembled? He's quick, strong and an experienced All Black, but I also think he shows limitations as a distributor, isn't that creative and may not have the right temperament.

He's days as an All Black Winger are surely gone. Does he have a future as an All Black centre?

I'd have Reiko Ioane as our starting no.11, with Sevu Reece at 14.

[wet-socks]

Speaking of "the white Reiko" , are we assuming the original Reiko should play a part in the AB squad when it eventually gets assembled? He's quick, strong and an experienced All Black, but I also think he shows limitations as a distributor, isn't that creative and may not have the right temperament.

He's days as an All Black Winger are surely gone. Does he have a future as an All Black centre?

I'd have Reiko Ioane as our starting no.11, with Sevu Reece at 14.

No room in there for Bridgey boy AC?

[Carter's Choice]

No room in there for Bridgey boy AC?

Nope.

[Gumboot]

No room in there for Bridgey boy AC?

Nope.

He wouldn't even make your bench?

[FujiKiwi]

I think Rieko has slowed down. It's more than a year since he even looked a threat for the ABs and his work for the Blues has been good but not consistently great.

I would actually select Bridge ahead of him.

Or Clarke.

[Carter's Choice]

No room in there for Bridgey boy AC?

Nope.

He wouldn't even make your bench?

If I was picking the All Black backline to play a test match this weekend, it would be;

15. Jordie Barrett
14. Sevu Reece
13. Jack Goodhue
12. Anton Lienart-Brown
11. Reiko Ioane
10. Richie Mo'unga
9. Aaron Smith

21. TJ Perenara
22. Beauden Barrett
23. Will Jordan

[Carter's Choice]

I think Rieko has slowed down.

He's 23 years old. I would be flabbergasted if he'd slowed down.

[Gumboot]

If I was picking the All Black backline to play a test match this weekend, it would be;

15. Jordie Barrett
14. Sevu Reece
13. Jack Goodhue
12. Anton Lienart-Brown
11. Reiko Ioane
10. Richie Mo'unga
9. Aaron Smith

21. TJ Perenara
22. Beauden Barrett
23. Will Jordan

Even though Ioane's been playing 13 and Goodhue's been playing 12 all year? Bit risky imho.

[Carter's Choice]

If I was picking the All Black backline to play a test match this weekend, it would be;

15. Jordie Barrett
14. Sevu Reece
13. Jack Goodhue
12. Anton Lienart-Brown
11. Reiko Ioane
10. Richie Mo'unga
9. Aaron Smith

21. TJ Perenara
22. Beauden Barrett
23. Will Jordan

Even though Ioane's been playing 13 and Goodhue's been playing 12 all year? Bit risky imho.

I think it would be much riskier playing Ioane at 13 and Goodhue at 12. They are much more experienced and have performed better in the other positions.

[Gumboot]

If I was picking the All Black backline to play a test match this weekend, it would be;

15. Jordie Barrett
14. Sevu Reece
13. Jack Goodhue
12. Anton Lienart-Brown
11. Reiko Ioane
10. Richie Mo'unga
9. Aaron Smith

21. TJ Perenara
22. Beauden Barrett
23. Will Jordan

Even though Ioane's been playing 13 and Goodhue's been playing 12 all year? Bit risky imho.

I think it would be much riskier playing Ioane at 13 and Goodhue at 12. They are much more experienced and have performed better in the other positions.

Certainly true at test level, but Rieko hasn't had a crack at centre (his preferred position) but has been outstanding there when given a decent run at it by the Blues. And enormous credit to Rangi for his own performance as a coach and selector this year.

Goodhue is currently in a death match against Bridge for a place in my unsettled squad.