The Official English Rugby Thread

[Tichtheid]

I can imagine Cockerill's approach winning a one off game against SA. Can't see it being viable in the longer term.

He came in to Edinburgh and immediately turned us around, he made us a tough nut to crack, but as Barclay says that can only take you so far and the limitations were so bleeding obvious in Cockerills last season.
Edinburgh were clueless after two phases and very creative players like Charlie Shiel were becoming slower and more conservative with every game.
He picked the same team and had them play as close to 80 minutes as he could, which stunted the development of young players.

There was a senior player revolt which was the final nail for Cockers, he still had a couple of years on his contract when he left. We lost a two Lions and another three international props, a laddie who just scored a hattrick at the weekend in the premiership there, a Fijian international winger and others who moved on, now I don't know if that was all down to Cockerill, but from what I gather the atmosphere was toxic, he'd humiliate players in front of the squad on Mondays for making mistakes at the weekend.

[petej]

Why Atkinson? Every move died with him in the Tonga game, and that was Tonga after 60 minutes. At 31, he's not getting faster, and he's just not worth investing 10 caps to see if he can even start to come good in my mind.

If you want a solid inside center you might as well select Dan Kelly who is at least young and could develop. Haven't watched much English prem in the last two years (due to COVID, having a toddler, not having bt sport) so don't know who is available that matches the following criteria - English <26yrs old and playing 12 currently for a premiership side?

[sockwithaticket]

Why Atkinson? Every move died with him in the Tonga game, and that was Tonga after 60 minutes. At 31, he's not getting faster, and he's just not worth investing 10 caps to see if he can even start to come good in my mind.

Given the way he distributes for Glaws I can only imagine he was being instructed just to bosh.

If Eddie's going to have him around I want him put through his paces - we know what Tuilagi and Farrell can do. Outside of those 2 we have zero solid 12 options going into the last 20 odd games before the world cup and one of them has an injury record which means his availability will always be in doubt. The only other real prospects at 12 Eddie's taken a look at recently are Kelly and Ojomoh, both of whom look very promising, but who knows if they'll be deemed ready to come into the side in time for the France '23. Atkinson's there now and if the intention is for him to do anything other than hold tackle bags in the short to medium term future, get him playing.

[Torquemada 1420]

Though this was interesting by BCM in the Torygraph
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... h-england/

Henry Slade’s man-of-the-match performance saw him in his best form for some time, but with this came a problem for Eddie Jones and also for fans of Marcus Smith.

We know that Manu Tuilagi is always going to play in a Jones team if fit, and so is Owen Farrell, because he is his captain. There are only three slots at 10, 12 and 13 and if Slade continues in this sort of form, it makes it more difficult for Jones to start Smith at outside-half. I fear that Smith from the bench is likely to be the norm after this game...

Question is whether BCM is right and Farrell is still Jones' automatic choice. For those of us who want to watch rugby, we hope not. For those of us who want to see Eng lose, we hope BCM is correct. I feel curiously torn.

Still mystified as to how Slade got MotM for that game, He was the same as he usually is for England - inconsistent. Fuck, even Youngs would've been a better pick.

Seen nothing to suggest that Jones has less of a boner for Farrell now. They'd have taken the positive covid test on the chin and left him to isolate for a couple of weeks if he wasn;t desperately wanted in the side.

If I had my way the midfield for the next couple of games would be Smith Atkinson Tuilagi or Smith Tuilagi Marchant,

TBF, I think the COVID test was a false positive. A bit like Farrell.

[SaintK]

Marler out for Saturday
Tested positive !!!

England prop Joe Marler will miss Saturday's Test against Australia in the Autumn Nations Series at Twickenham after testing positive for Covid-19.

Marler returned a positive lateral flow test on Monday with a subsequent PCR test also coming back positive.

The 32-year-old forward will now isolate for 10 days in line with government regulations.

[Raggs]

Who's next in line?

[ASMO]

[Hells Bells]

Who's next in line?

Wont it just go to Davison as the only other prop in the squad? Maybe a call up for Mako if Marlet is a doubt for the SA game.

[assfly]

I wonder if that's it, or more positive cases to follow.

[JM2K6]

Yup, that's the big concern. That's three positives in the camp now (yes, I'm treating Farrell as a positive, because they kept testing him until he tested negative...)

[Paddington Bear]

I can imagine Cockerill's approach winning a one off game against SA. Can't see it being viable in the longer term.

He came in to Edinburgh and immediately turned us around, he made us a tough nut to crack, but as Barclay says that can only take you so far and the limitations were so bleeding obvious in Cockerills last season.
Edinburgh were clueless after two phases and very creative players like Charlie Shiel were becoming slower and more conservative with every game.
He picked the same team and had them play as close to 80 minutes as he could, which stunted the development of young players.

There was a senior player revolt which was the final nail for Cockers, he still had a couple of years on his contract when he left. We lost a two Lions and another three international props, a laddie who just scored a hattrick at the weekend in the premiership there, a Fijian international winger and others who moved on, now I don't know if that was all down to Cockerill, but from what I gather the atmosphere was toxic, he'd humiliate players in front of the squad on Mondays for making mistakes at the weekend.

Yeah I'd have a strong preference for him not being involved with England at all but can see it getting results this autumn.

[sockwithaticket]

Wasps with yet another loan signing. Gordon Reid comes on after both our loose heads went off injured at the weekend.

[Paddington Bear]

You have to question the point of the Premiership Cup with so many injuries around. Give a few weeks off instead.

[sockwithaticket]

You have to question the point of the Premiership Cup with so many injuries around. Give a few weeks off instead.

I genuinely think we should forfeit it. I'm sure there'd be a consequence, but is it worse than potentially injuring more of the few players we have left standing?

Come the end of the month/early December we're due to get a bunch back. In the mean time the product of the Prem proper won't be best served by us risking coming back to it with thinner ranks.

[Kawazaki]

Why Atkinson? Every move died with him in the Tonga game, and that was Tonga after 60 minutes. At 31, he's not getting faster, and he's just not worth investing 10 caps to see if he can even start to come good in my mind.

If you want a solid inside center you might as well select Dan Kelly who is at least young and could develop. Haven't watched much English prem in the last two years (due to COVID, having a toddler, not having bt sport) so don't know who is available that matches the following criteria - English <26yrs old and playing 12 currently for a premiership side?

The best English 12 in the Premiership is Lozowski.

[inactionman]

Why Atkinson? Every move died with him in the Tonga game, and that was Tonga after 60 minutes. At 31, he's not getting faster, and he's just not worth investing 10 caps to see if he can even start to come good in my mind.

If you want a solid inside center you might as well select Dan Kelly who is at least young and could develop. Haven't watched much English prem in the last two years (due to COVID, having a toddler, not having bt sport) so don't know who is available that matches the following criteria - English <26yrs old and playing 12 currently for a premiership side?

The best English 12 in the Premiership is Lozowski.

I'd certainly not whine about seeing him in an England shirt. Shame he failed the Eddie audition, looks like there's few second chances.

[JM2K6]

Yeah. Probably doesn't help that he's spent most of his time since then playing 13 or 10. He and Devoto can both feel a little hard done by, classic examples of players who got callups but are better now and don't get a sniff.

[mos_eisely_]

I can imagine Cockerill's approach winning a one off game against SA. Can't see it being viable in the longer term.

He came in to Edinburgh and immediately turned us around, he made us a tough nut to crack, but as Barclay says that can only take you so far and the limitations were so bleeding obvious in Cockerills last season.
Edinburgh were clueless after two phases and very creative players like Charlie Shiel were becoming slower and more conservative with every game.
He picked the same team and had them play as close to 80 minutes as he could, which stunted the development of young players.

There was a senior player revolt which was the final nail for Cockers, he still had a couple of years on his contract when he left. We lost a two Lions and another three international props, a laddie who just scored a hattrick at the weekend in the premiership there, a Fijian international winger and others who moved on, now I don't know if that was all down to Cockerill, but from what I gather the atmosphere was toxic, he'd humiliate players in front of the squad on Mondays for making mistakes at the weekend.

Yeah I'd have a strong preference for him not being involved with England at all but can see it getting results this autumn.

I think as an assistant international coach is the perfect place for him. He doesn't have responsibility for back play or overall gameplan, and gets to beast the forwards for a few weeks a year to get them fired up for test matches

[Kawazaki]

If you want a solid inside center you might as well select Dan Kelly who is at least young and could develop. Haven't watched much English prem in the last two years (due to COVID, having a toddler, not having bt sport) so don't know who is available that matches the following criteria - English <26yrs old and playing 12 currently for a premiership side?

The best English 12 in the Premiership is Lozowski.

I'd certainly not whine about seeing him in an England shirt. Shame he failed the Eddie audition, looks like there's few second chances.

Well the antipodean idiot has just picked George Furbank again and he was absolute dogshit in his first two caps.

[sturginho]

If you want a solid inside center you might as well select Dan Kelly who is at least young and could develop. Haven't watched much English prem in the last two years (due to COVID, having a toddler, not having bt sport) so don't know who is available that matches the following criteria - English <26yrs old and playing 12 currently for a premiership side?

The best English 12 in the Premiership is Lozowski.

I'd certainly not whine about seeing him in an England shirt. Shame he failed the Eddie audition, looks like there's few second chances.

If WR bring in the new rule about stand down periods, then we could see him in an italy shirt, I'd certainly not whine :)

[sockwithaticket]

The best English 12 in the Premiership is Lozowski.

I'd certainly not whine about seeing him in an England shirt. Shame he failed the Eddie audition, looks like there's few second chances.

Well the antipodean idiot has just picked George Furbank again and he was absolute dogshit in his first two caps.

Never got hooked early in a test, though. That seems to be Eddie's line for no chances ever again (regardless of whether the hooking was merited or not).

[inactionman]

I'd certainly not whine about seeing him in an England shirt. Shame he failed the Eddie audition, looks like there's few second chances.

Well the antipodean idiot has just picked George Furbank again and he was absolute dogshit in his first two caps.

Never got hooked early in a test, though. That seems to be Eddie's line for no chances ever again (regardless of whether the hooking was merited or not).

Aye, Isiekwe won't be getting a look-in until Eddie's pensioned off.

[Woddy]

He came in to Edinburgh and immediately turned us around, he made us a tough nut to crack, but as Barclay says that can only take you so far and the limitations were so bleeding obvious in Cockerills last season.
Edinburgh were clueless after two phases and very creative players like Charlie Shiel were becoming slower and more conservative with every game.
He picked the same team and had them play as close to 80 minutes as he could, which stunted the development of young players.

There was a senior player revolt which was the final nail for Cockers, he still had a couple of years on his contract when he left. We lost a two Lions and another three international props, a laddie who just scored a hattrick at the weekend in the premiership there, a Fijian international winger and others who moved on, now I don't know if that was all down to Cockerill, but from what I gather the atmosphere was toxic, he'd humiliate players in front of the squad on Mondays for making mistakes at the weekend.

Yeah I'd have a strong preference for him not being involved with England at all but can see it getting results this autumn.

I think as an assistant international coach is the perfect place for him. He doesn't have responsibility for back play or overall gameplan, and gets to beast the forwards for a few weeks a year to get them fired up for test matches

You could be talking about Farrell there...

[Raggs]

Looks like a few years back PRL really did start to get tougher on release outside the window, after the George North fine of £60k.

Jamie Roberts saying he had a clause with Quins saying he gets full release and they'll deal with any fines etc from PRL, but when it came to it, they offered him £130k to buy him out his contract, so he was no longer their player (and could of course play for Wales). Suggests the punishment was more than £130k.

[Kawazaki]

Looks like a few years back PRL really did start to get tougher on release outside the window, after the George North fine of £60k.

Jamie Roberts saying he had a clause with Quins saying he gets full release and they'll deal with any fines etc from PRL, but when it came to it, they offered him £130k to buy him out his contract, so he was no longer their player (and could of course play for Wales). Suggests the punishment was more than £130k.

I wonder if Quins declared that £130k to the cap commissioner? That's at least a couple of squad player salaries.

[Paddington Bear]

Well the antipodean idiot has just picked George Furbank again and he was absolute dogshit in his first two caps.

Never got hooked early in a test, though. That seems to be Eddie's line for no chances ever again (regardless of whether the hooking was merited or not).

Aye, Isiekwe won't be getting a look-in until Eddie's pensioned off.

There's an extent to which this is true regardless of who is England coach - with the amount of decent players we have some will always be on the outside looking in.

[JM2K6]

Looks like a few years back PRL really did start to get tougher on release outside the window, after the George North fine of £60k.

Jamie Roberts saying he had a clause with Quins saying he gets full release and they'll deal with any fines etc from PRL, but when it came to it, they offered him £130k to buy him out his contract, so he was no longer their player (and could of course play for Wales). Suggests the punishment was more than £130k.

I wonder if Quins declared that £130k to the cap commissioner? That's at least a couple of squad player salaries.

Why would they declare something they never paid?

It'd also represent Roberts' salary getting off the books, but I can't say I know what else Quins would've had to do to balance it.

[Raggs]

Looks like a few years back PRL really did start to get tougher on release outside the window, after the George North fine of £60k.

Jamie Roberts saying he had a clause with Quins saying he gets full release and they'll deal with any fines etc from PRL, but when it came to it, they offered him £130k to buy him out his contract, so he was no longer their player (and could of course play for Wales). Suggests the punishment was more than £130k.

I wonder if Quins declared that £130k to the cap commissioner? That's at least a couple of squad player salaries.

Why would they declare something they never paid?

It'd also represent Roberts' salary getting off the books, but I can't say I know what else Quins would've had to do to balance it.

Didn't see this without the quote, but yeah... paying someone their salary isn't exactly going to come as a shock to the cap commissioner, whether it's buying him out the rest of his contract in a lump, or given over the months. No issue there whatsoever.

Where the conversation could have perhaps been interesting, is if there was a PRL fine (I know we're into hypotheticals here), could that have been classified as part of the cap? The contract was written stating that Quins would cover those payments, so it's a known potential expense when hiring the player, that would help entice the player to Quins rather than another team.

It wouldn't have been millions regardless, I suspect it was probably a points punishment that they actually wanted to avoid.

[JM2K6]

I wonder if Quins declared that £130k to the cap commissioner? That's at least a couple of squad player salaries.

Why would they declare something they never paid?

It'd also represent Roberts' salary getting off the books, but I can't say I know what else Quins would've had to do to balance it.

Didn't see this without the quote, but yeah... paying someone their salary isn't exactly going to come as a shock to the cap commissioner, whether it's buying him out the rest of his contract in a lump, or given over the months. No issue there whatsoever.

Where the conversation could have perhaps been interesting, is if there was a PRL fine (I know we're into hypotheticals here), could that have been classified as part of the cap? The contract was written stating that Quins would cover those payments, so it's a known potential expense when hiring the player, that would help entice the player to Quins rather than another team.

It wouldn't have been millions regardless, I suspect it was probably a points punishment that they actually wanted to avoid.

I think it's a pretty shabby thing for Quins to have done for the record, but I can't see how a PRL fine would come out of the salary cap even if Quins had agreed with Roberts that they'd pay it - Roberts was never going to be the recipient of the fine himself. Either way I'm glad Quins were forced to change their mind. Roberts' overwraught writing on this is hilarious but it's clearly not as straightforward as he makes out, hence his lawyers going "eh it's 50/50" (according to him).

Strange guy, super smart but surely must have known he wasn't putting in the performances at Quins and was on the way down? Think it's a little convenient for him to say "this ended my international career" given his personal form and his age.

[Raggs]

I think it's a pretty shabby thing for Quins to have done for the record, but I can't see how a PRL fine would come out of the salary cap even if Quins had agreed with Roberts that they'd pay it - Roberts was never going to be the recipient of the fine himself. Either way I'm glad Quins were forced to change their mind. Roberts' overwraught writing on this is hilarious but it's clearly not as straightforward as he makes out, hence his lawyers going "eh it's 50/50" (according to him).

Strange guy, super smart but surely must have known he wasn't putting in the performances at Quins and was on the way down? Think it's a little convenient for him to say "this ended my international career" given his personal form and his age.

For me it's an agreed expense that's a direct result of signing the player. I'm not positive it would have been, but I suspect there'd have been a conversation. They didn't offer the cash to Roberts, but the release was the enticement, which they knew would come with a cost.

Definitely not as black and white as stated, since as you say, lawyers wouldn't have been saying it's only a 50/50.

Not quite sure about the whole confidentiality clause thing though. How exactly does that work when clearly the whole Quins squad can see he's not in training, all the coaches must be aware of why he's not there, the entire Welsh squad can see that he's training with them etc... he doesn't need to verbally tell anyone there's an agreement for it to be blatantly obvious there is one.

[JM2K6]

Yeah I don't get that either, even if it's just for the media's benefit... they also turn up to training, y'know?

As for the expense - it's a *possible* expense arising from the player being selected for Wales and simply a punishment the club indicated it was willing to bear. The fact that it was a financial punishment doesn't make it part of the cap - it's not a direct financial benefit to Roberts. Anyway, that's how I'd have argued it to the salary cap dude, but all a moot point.

Not that Saili (who essentially replaced him) was any better

[Raggs]

Manu apparently with less body fat than England have ever seen him with, and as well as that, put up his fastest GPS numbers too, so it wasn't just a feeling that he was looking like that kid that was fast enough to play wing again. Looks like he genuinely has sped up.

Hopefully with the fat and weight loss, he'll have a bit more longevity too...

[Brazil]

Manu apparently with less body fat than England have ever seen him with, and as well as that, put up his fastest GPS numbers too, so it wasn't just a feeling that he was looking like that kid that was fast enough to play wing again. Looks like he genuinely has sped up.

Hopefully with the fat and weight loss, he'll have a bit more longevity too...

Him and Van Rensburg both lost a tonne of weight over the summer and have looked much sharper as a consequence.

[JM2K6]

Has Van Rensburg had surgery yet, or does he still have literal flippers for hands?

[sockwithaticket]

Manu apparently with less body fat than England have ever seen him with, and as well as that, put up his fastest GPS numbers too, so it wasn't just a feeling that he was looking like that kid that was fast enough to play wing again. Looks like he genuinely has sped up.

Hopefully with the fat and weight loss, he'll have a bit more longevity too...

Him and Van Rensburg both lost a tonne of weight over the summer and have looked much sharper as a consequence.

I gather Van Rensburg asked Manu one day whether they were both too big and from there they resolved to get leaner.

[JM2K6]

Manu apparently with less body fat than England have ever seen him with, and as well as that, put up his fastest GPS numbers too, so it wasn't just a feeling that he was looking like that kid that was fast enough to play wing again. Looks like he genuinely has sped up.

Hopefully with the fat and weight loss, he'll have a bit more longevity too...

Him and Van Rensburg both lost a tonne of weight over the summer and have looked much sharper as a consequence.

I gather Van Rensburg asked Manu one day whether they were both too big and from there they resolved to get leaner.

Manu and RJvR checking their body weight results...

Spoiler

Show

[Kawazaki]

Never got hooked early in a test, though. That seems to be Eddie's line for no chances ever again (regardless of whether the hooking was merited or not).

Aye, Isiekwe won't be getting a look-in until Eddie's pensioned off.

There's an extent to which this is true regardless of who is England coach - with the amount of decent players we have some will always be on the outside looking in.

You think Eddie Jones might have some kind of coherent selection methodology?

It's a theory of sorts I guess.

[inactionman]

Bevan Rodd called up to squad in place of Marler

[SaintK]

Bevan Rodd called up to squad in place of Marler

Mako definitely not wanted then!!!

[inactionman]

Bevan Rodd called up to squad in place of Marler

Mako definitely not wanted then!!!

If not now, you'd have to wonder if it'll happen again. He's had a few propping performances in an England shirt where we've not come out well which won't have escaped Jones' eye.

Seems to be a pretty youthful selection at prop - the inclusion of Trevor Davidson had slipped past me, although I know he's utility cover for both 1 and 3 and suspect he'll be holding the tackle bags for a bit yet.