The Official English Rugby Thread

[Paddington Bear]

Watching the penalty try again and what’s depressing is how easy it was. Scotland essentially tried two set piece moves in the match and cut us apart on both.
That game was all but won and should have been closed out.

Rumours of Eddie about to go after the ref about the scrums at the end. Let’s be clear that O’Keefe made what was a howler in a real case of lost bottle, but games are decided on the pitch and I’m bored of refs being wheeled out for apologies. If he does a Rassie he should go.

[Torquemada 1420]

Oh rubbish. LCD had a brainfart when he was caught out in an unusual position. There's nothing systematic about that.

Is brainfart an excuse? Marler, Sinckler, Genge etc. Eng seem to have front row players with lots of playing ability and too little in the top 2 inches when composure is needed.

[Kawazaki]

It's been obvious to many that there is something very wrong with Eddie Jones for a long time now. There are psychological flaws that manifest themselves over long and short time-frames. I've been reading some of his most recent book, written in the period after RWC19 and it's full of revisionism. Not really surprising but there is one thing that springs out at you, Jones is obsessed with money and the trappings of wealth as much as anything else. He has his fingers in all sorts of commercial pies, including of course the book I was reading. This makes him a massive hypocrite along with everything else he is given his criticism of any player who he thinks doesn't apply all of their energy just to rugby and nothing else outside the sport (and tennis players as well).

I've said for a while now that Jones simply doesn't have the best interests of English rugby in mind. It's all about feeding the Eddie ego. The RFU are like a cuckold husband while he's hanging out the back of the England team.

[PCPhil]

I’d say it’s 50:50 that Smith gets benched next week for a try fest romp against Italy with a pairing of Youngs and Ford. It’s the kind of thing he’d do.

[Kawazaki]

I’d say it’s 50:50 that Smith gets benched next week for a try fest romp against Italy with a pairing of Youngs and Ford. It’s the kind of thing he’d do.

Jones said England weren't 'clinical'. This means they'll kick even more and maul the ball over from 5m lineouts. Jones doesn't do novel.

[Punter15]

I honestly believe Eddies ego now is killing this team, he refuses to believe anyone might know better than him, or has different ideas that might work, it is his way or no way.

Certainly looks that way and I feel for you. We fancied our chances against the team he picked, but there are many other iterations that a more sentient coach would have gone for that would have done us by 20. When we’ve had coach issues (Robinson, Williams) it’s been because they’re a bit shit, rather than mental. It’s a terrible shame for the players.

[Punter15]

It's been obvious to many that there is something very wrong with Eddie Jones for a long time now. There are psychological flaws that manifest themselves over long and short time-frames. I've been reading some of his most recent book, written in the period after RWC19 and it's full of revisionism. Not really surprising but there is one thing that springs out at you, Jones is obsessed with money and the trappings of wealth as much as anything else. He has his fingers in all sorts of commercial pies, including of course the book I was reading. This makes him a massive hypocrite along with everything else he is given his criticism of any player who he thinks doesn't apply all of their energy just to rugby and nothing else outside the sport (and tennis players as well).

I've said for a while now that Jones simply doesn't have the best interests of English rugby in mind. It's all about feeding the Eddie ego. The RFU are like a cuckold husband while he's hanging out the back of the England team.

100%

[petej]

I’d say it’s 50:50 that Smith gets benched next week for a try fest romp against Italy with a pairing of Youngs and Ford. It’s the kind of thing he’d do.

When is Farrell fit? Could see a Youngs Farrell partnership. Italy is an ideal time/match to try Smith with a new 9.

Who is available to replace Jones?

[sockwithaticket]

I’d say it’s 50:50 that Smith gets benched next week for a try fest romp against Italy with a pairing of Youngs and Ford. It’s the kind of thing he’d do.

When is Farrell fit? Could see a Youngs Farrell partnership. Italy is an ideal time/match to try Smith with a new 9.

Who is available to replace Jones?

Out for the whole tournament iirc. Thank fuck. I made the mistake of briefly dropping into the Graun comments section the match report and some folk in there think we'd have done better with Farrell at 10

There's no one particularly qualified to replace Jones who's out of contract, although perhaps we could tempt Connor O'Shea out of his back room RFU job.

[Kawazaki]

I’d say it’s 50:50 that Smith gets benched next week for a try fest romp against Italy with a pairing of Youngs and Ford. It’s the kind of thing he’d do.

When is Farrell fit? Could see a Youngs Farrell partnership. Italy is an ideal time/match to try Smith with a new 9.

Who is available to replace Jones?

Jones won't get replaced because he reports and answers to nobody. There's literally nobody above him in the RFU structure on the performance ladder and the RFU CEO doesn't know the difference between a scrum and a lineout.

We're screwed.

[Kawazaki]

My dream ticket for England would be Steve Hansen and Sean Edwards.

[PCPhil]

I’d say it’s 50:50 that Smith gets benched next week for a try fest romp against Italy with a pairing of Youngs and Ford. It’s the kind of thing he’d do.

Jones said England weren't 'clinical'. This means they'll kick even more and maul the ball over from 5m lineouts. Jones doesn't do novel.

What I meant was that over many years Oundle 3rd eleven could beat Italy. A nice big win with an ‘Eddie’ team and all is peachy in the world (last bit drips with sarcasm).

[ASMO]

My dream ticket for England would be Steve Hansen and Sean Edwards.

England should be breaking the bank to get Edwards over here, he has proved his credentials with both Wales and France, Hansen or Roberstson would both be good shouts but doubt either would take it given the poison chalice Eddie has left them. I wouldn't take Farrell, he would very likely be favouring is offspring who should be nowhere near the test side. What is certain is that a coaching clearout is needed from top to bottom, with this group it will be a painful RWC in France, i can see echoes of 2015.

[shaggy]

My dream ticket for England would be Steve Hansen and Sean Edwards.

England should be breaking the bank to get Edwards over here, he has proved his credentials with both Wales and France, Hansen or Roberstson would both be good shouts but doubt either would take it given the poison chalice Eddie has left them. I wouldn't take Farrell, he would very likely be favouring is offspring who should be nowhere near the test side. What is certain is that a coaching clearout is needed from top to bottom, with this group it will be a painful RWC in France, i can see echoes of 2015.

I know my opinion is pretty worthless as I visit so infrequently but it is fucking irritating when the ‘safe space’ of a national thread continually gets invaded. I understand there is opinion from others, but that is what the match thread is for. You don’t need to go chasing after England supporters to give an opinion in their home.

[JM2K6]

My dream ticket for England would be Steve Hansen and Sean Edwards.

England should be breaking the bank to get Edwards over here, he has proved his credentials with both Wales and France, Hansen or Roberstson would both be good shouts but doubt either would take it given the poison chalice Eddie has left them. I wouldn't take Farrell, he would very likely be favouring is offspring who should be nowhere near the test side. What is certain is that a coaching clearout is needed from top to bottom, with this group it will be a painful RWC in France, i can see echoes of 2015.

I know my opinion is pretty worthless as I visit so infrequently but it is fucking irritating when the ‘safe space’ of a national thread continually gets invaded. I understand there is opinion from others, but that is what the match thread is for. You don’t need to go chasing after England supporters to give an opinion in their home.

Asmo's English

[JM2K6]

My dream ticket for England would be Steve Hansen and Sean Edwards.

England should be breaking the bank to get Edwards over here, he has proved his credentials with both Wales and France, Hansen or Roberstson would both be good shouts but doubt either would take it given the poison chalice Eddie has left them. I wouldn't take Farrell, he would very likely be favouring is offspring who should be nowhere near the test side. What is certain is that a coaching clearout is needed from top to bottom, with this group it will be a painful RWC in France, i can see echoes of 2015.

If Edwards doesn't fancy it, Joe Worsley strikes me as the next best option as a defence coach. Get Scott Robertson in and embrace the Crusaders insanity

[Madness]

If we lose to France and Ireland and we probably will, then Eddie has to go, he can't blame two bad years on injuries with our depth.

Having calmed down a bit but there are still some real annoyances for me.

The LCD penalty try was absolutely clear cut, now I know LCD has come out on Twitter and apologised as is the modern way but it'll be interesting to see the response from Jones. Interestingly, this is where a Woodward coaching theme of thinking clearly under pressure may have helped. LCD was undoubtably in a poor position but his mental process went to pieces. As we all saw he'd actually got hands to the ball first and all he needed to do was not smash it deliberately into touch or knock it on straight to Graham and the outcome would have been better. In fact even if he had knocked it onto Graham it still would have been a better outcome as no yellow card.

There is real lack of leadership in the team. Now Eddie has moaned about this for ages but leadership also takes trust and there does not appear to be any trust between players and coaches. In fact it looks like the players are fearful to do anything outside of the game plan. They must have planned for the kicking game into the corners when the weather was dogshit pre game but it got significantly better so why when you've generated great front football and got to the edge do the players think "Plan A, kick to corner" rather than ignore that and go with the plan. Does this come down to weak player mental strength or fear that going against the plan will get you dropped and discarded from the squad and that could cost you and your family a £100000 a year! How much easier just to stick to the plan........

I've complained about Youngs for years like many, gobsmacked at the ratings he is getting in the papers, "cracked the Scottish defence" "rejuvenated" he was terrible. Yes, he can be close to world class on a good day but they are so widely spread these days that when he puts in his normal game he is the biggest single player problem in this team. I would love to see a show of solidarity from all the other Prem 9s to say not going to get battered in England training just to sit on the bench when a past it 9 cannot seem to do anything wrong.

Just pick players in their best position, England have an enormous player base so use it. Pick a club 12 at 12, pick wingers on the wing, don't play a dedicated no 8 at blind side. Think about club combos, does anyone think a 8,9,10 of Dombrandt, Care and Smith would finish the game worse than Simmonds, Youngs and Ford?

Some of the decision making from the coaches in the last 20 mins was shocking. Smith was playing as well as he could outside Youngs, he's won tight high pressure games and is on form but gets taken off. You loose your hooker at 66 mins so why not sub on George before the lineout? Take off Simmonds before you have to for a scrum and at least you have a lineout that works. Yes, you do lose Simmonds for all of the game rather than get him back for last 4 mins but Ewels could then come on and stick Itoje or Isiekwe to 6 and Dombrandt to 8 for last 4 mins. Monumentally stupid.

Got a horrible feeling Eddie will double down on experience for Italy and we will see Ford start, Ewels instead of Isiekwe and more people out of position in the backs.

This is what he should do for Italy barring no more injuries and assuming no one else makes it back,

Genge,
George - has to be consequences for LCD fuck up
Sinks
Itoje
Isiekwe
Ludlum
Curry
Dombrandt
Randall
Smith
Radwan
Atkinson
Slade
HassellCollins
Steward

Marler, LCD, Stuart, Ewels (no other fit 2nd rows), Barbeary, Quirke, Malins, Marchant

[Monk]

I know my opinion is pretty worthless as I visit so infrequently but it is fucking irritating when the ‘safe space’ of a national thread continually gets invaded. I understand there is opinion from others, but that is what the match thread is for. You don’t need to go chasing after England supporters to give an opinion in their home.

i cannot disagree more

[Sinkers]

Get the women’s coach in on the short term with an option to extend

[sockwithaticket]

Get the women’s coach in on the short term with an option to extend

Nope.

He's done very well, but, let's be frank, the landscape of the women's game is far less competitive. Even before going pro England only had a couple of regularly challenging opponents.

A proven mens coach please. As in interim solution, as I suggested above, get O'Shea out from behind his desk and back in a tracksuit.

[sockwithaticket]

Quims not looking to flash against Sale.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

George - has to be consequences for LCD fuck up

Why just for LCD?

Plenty of players had some howlers, just really daft decision making or piss poor skill execution.

[Lobby]

Get the women’s coach in on the short term with an option to extend

Nope.

He's done very well, but, let's be frank, the landscape of the women's game is far less competitive. Even before going pro England only had a couple of regularly challenging opponents.

A proven mens coach please. As in interim solution, as I suggested above, get O'Shea out from behind his desk and back in a tracksuit.

England's women are also far too reliant on forward domination, and don't make nearly enough use of their excellent backline. It doesn't matter so much there because there are so few sides that can challenge them upfront, but its an approach that wouldn't work in the men's game.

[Kawazaki]

In my humble opinion, England need a former NZ head coach. Why? Because coaching NZ is actually the nearest thing to coaching England;

1. Deep player pool.
2. High standards.
3. Meritocratic mindset.
4. High expectations.
5. Big budget.
6. No overseas players allowed.
7. Hostile press.
8. No bullshit.

[sockwithaticket]

Quins grab a scoreboard lifeline before half time.

[JM2K6]

Quims not looking to flash against Sale.

Once the teams were announced I was more than happy to go out shopping (currently in a cab...). We struggle with Sale at the best of times, we're not in great form and that back row is an abomination. It's nowhere near Wasps level but our unavailable list is pretty meaty and there's a big drop off in some positions.

[Lemoentjie]

It's been obvious to many that there is something very wrong with Eddie Jones for a long time now. There are psychological flaws that manifest themselves over long and short time-frames. I've been reading some of his most recent book, written in the period after RWC19 and it's full of revisionism. Not really surprising but there is one thing that springs out at you, Jones is obsessed with money and the trappings of wealth as much as anything else. He has his fingers in all sorts of commercial pies, including of course the book I was reading. This makes him a massive hypocrite along with everything else he is given his criticism of any player who he thinks doesn't apply all of their energy just to rugby and nothing else outside the sport (and tennis players as well).

I've said for a while now that Jones simply doesn't have the best interests of English rugby in mind. It's all about feeding the Eddie ego. The RFU are like a cuckold husband while he's hanging out the back of the England team.

(Apologies for intrusion)

The guy is a big narcissist, to be honest. Like you say, he seems to think that commercial opportunities are only affecting to players not just coaches. Why? The argument against commercials is mental distractions, not a physical effort. Mental distractions also affect to coaches, but Jones thinks it doesn't apply to him but does to his players (sign of narcissist and control freak).

I have also read some things about him repeating national stereotypes that last didn't look out of place in the 1950s.

[Hal Jordan]

Jones' hectoring, my way or the high way style works well short term - see 2016 for proof. But long term, it becomes nothing more than a culture fear and yes men.

[sockwithaticket]

Quims not looking to flash against Sale.

Once the teams were announced I was more than happy to go out shopping (currently in a cab...). We struggle with Sale at the best of times, we're not in great form and that back row is an abomination. It's nowhere near Wasps level but our unavailable list is pretty meaty and there's a big drop off in some positions.

it's definitely not the strongest line up, particularly up front. What really surprised me while keeping half on eye on the first half was the sheer amount of dropped ball. That's something that shouldn't be personnell contingent.

[Lady P]

This and last week are really showing how fragile Quins are. We have a lot missing and had a good run, but we have good players screwing up game after game now.

Still it stops Braz having a tantrum

[Torquemada 1420]

Quims not looking to flash against Sale.

Once the teams were announced I was more than happy to go out shopping (currently in a cab...). We struggle with Sale at the best of times, we're not in great form and that back row is an abomination. It's nowhere near Wasps level but our unavailable list is pretty meaty and there's a big drop off in some positions.

Weirdly, most FR players have gone for Quins and so clearly didn't bother to look at the lineups.

[Ovals]

Even though I think Jones is an absolute spoofer and a dreadful waste of space - I still can't believe he is is asking his players to kick attacking ball away when we are in, or around the 22, in space with people outside. That has to be the players making poor decisions. Our centres, yesterday, were completely anonomous and made absolutely no impression in attack. And, Steward, whilst looking solid (dropped kick aside) did very little, didn't come into the line at all, and offered nothing in attack.

Our forwards were dominant but I felt they could have done more to suck in the Scottish defence - with more close quarter work off the ruck, pick and goes etc., before using the backline who were always faced with a wall of Scottish defenders spread across the park. Youngs should have been organising them better to earn the right to go wide.

[Hal Jordan]

I didn't feel the forwards had much dominance. I can't think 0f many occasions where they broke Scottish line, and when they did, no one was there quick enough to secure ball that would disrupt Scotland structure.

The lack of anyone in the backs who could carry with any threat, or even offer a hard carry to turn shit ball into something usuable, was also an issue. Against, there were a few breaks (generally Malins) but no follow up.

[Lobby]

Even though I think Jones is an absolute spoofer and a dreadful waste of space - I still can't believe he is is asking his players to kick attacking ball away when we are in, or around the 22, in space with people outside. That has to be the players making poor decisions. Our centres, yesterday, were completely anonomous and made absolutely no impression in attack. And, Steward, whilst looking solid (dropped kick aside) did very little, didn't come into the line at all, and offered nothing in attack.

Our forwards were dominant but I felt they could have done more to suck in the Scottish defence - with more close quarter work off the ruck, pick and goes etc., before using the backline who were always faced with a wall of Scottish defenders spread across the park. Youngs should have been organising them better to earn the right to go wide.

Simmonds aside on a couple of occasions, and despite dominating possession, our forwards hardly ever got over the gainline. Consequently Scotland weren’t really challenged in defence, especially as they knew that after three, or at the most four, phases, England would kick the ball away again.

[JM2K6]

Even though I think Jones is an absolute spoofer and a dreadful waste of space - I still can't believe he is is asking his players to kick attacking ball away when we are in, or around the 22, in space with people outside. That has to be the players making poor decisions. Our centres, yesterday, were completely anonomous and made absolutely no impression in attack. And, Steward, whilst looking solid (dropped kick aside) did very little, didn't come into the line at all, and offered nothing in attack.

Our forwards were dominant but I felt they could have done more to suck in the Scottish defence - with more close quarter work off the ruck, pick and goes etc., before using the backline who were always faced with a wall of Scottish defenders spread across the park. Youngs should have been organising them better to earn the right to go wide.

If every single attacking player is doing something against their nature then it's very clearly been something they've been ordered to do. And we have years of examples of Eddie sending teams away from home with express orders to kick the ball away.

[petej]

I didn't feel the forwards had much dominance. I can't think 0f many occasions where they broke Scottish line, and when they did, no one was there quick enough to secure ball that would disrupt Scotland structure.

The lack of anyone in the backs who could carry with any threat, or even offer a hard carry to turn shit ball into something usuable, was also an issue. Against, there were a few breaks (generally Malins) but no follow up.

That is why not having a winger like Radwan and moving marchant on to wing makes no sense. Slade doesn't run hard lines at 12 either.

[Ovals]

Even though I think Jones is an absolute spoofer and a dreadful waste of space - I still can't believe he is is asking his players to kick attacking ball away when we are in, or around the 22, in space with people outside. That has to be the players making poor decisions. Our centres, yesterday, were completely anonomous and made absolutely no impression in attack. And, Steward, whilst looking solid (dropped kick aside) did very little, didn't come into the line at all, and offered nothing in attack.

Our forwards were dominant but I felt they could have done more to suck in the Scottish defence - with more close quarter work off the ruck, pick and goes etc., before using the backline who were always faced with a wall of Scottish defenders spread across the park. Youngs should have been organising them better to earn the right to go wide.

If every single attacking player is doing something against their nature then it's very clearly been something they've been ordered to do. And we have years of examples of Eddie sending teams away from home with express orders to kick the ball away.

No doubt that Eddie has favoured a kicking game - but I doubt that even he would be suggesting they do it when they have clear openings, with players available in space, around and inside the 22.

[Niegs]

Get the women’s coach in on the short term with an option to extend

Nope.

He's done very well, but, let's be frank, the landscape of the women's game is far less competitive. Even before going pro England only had a couple of regularly challenging opponents.

A proven mens coach please. As in interim solution, as I suggested above, get O'Shea out from behind his desk and back in a tracksuit.

I agree with this. I watch the women's team quite a bit and would say he's very forwards happy. Has three of the best outside backs in the world and they don't see the ball nearly as much as they should because most phases involve forward pods which also pen the backs into using the outer third of the pitch and chasing kicks.

Edit: I see Lobby pretty much said the same thing. Great minds... ... or painfully obvious that England, despite being the best, are still below potential!?

[JM2K6]

Even though I think Jones is an absolute spoofer and a dreadful waste of space - I still can't believe he is is asking his players to kick attacking ball away when we are in, or around the 22, in space with people outside. That has to be the players making poor decisions. Our centres, yesterday, were completely anonomous and made absolutely no impression in attack. And, Steward, whilst looking solid (dropped kick aside) did very little, didn't come into the line at all, and offered nothing in attack.

Our forwards were dominant but I felt they could have done more to suck in the Scottish defence - with more close quarter work off the ruck, pick and goes etc., before using the backline who were always faced with a wall of Scottish defenders spread across the park. Youngs should have been organising them better to earn the right to go wide.

If every single attacking player is doing something against their nature then it's very clearly been something they've been ordered to do. And we have years of examples of Eddie sending teams away from home with express orders to kick the ball away.

No doubt that Eddie has favoured a kicking game - but I doubt that even he would be suggesting they do it when they have clear openings, with players available in space, around and inside the 22.

Why not? He's been happy for Farrell to kick attacking ball away for years.

These are players who all have instincts to run. They did what they were trained to do. It's so specific a repeated tactic that it cannot have been anything else but the number one thing he demanded of them.

[Ovals]

If every single attacking player is doing something against their nature then it's very clearly been something they've been ordered to do. And we have years of examples of Eddie sending teams away from home with express orders to kick the ball away.

No doubt that Eddie has favoured a kicking game - but I doubt that even he would be suggesting they do it when they have clear openings, with players available in space, around and inside the 22.

Why not? He's been happy for Farrell to kick attacking ball away for years.

These are players who all have instincts to run. They did what they were trained to do. It's so specific a repeated tactic that it cannot have been anything else but the number one thing he demanded of them.

Nah - players have to take responsibility for those decisions - there's no way he'd be telling them to kick away clear overlaps - he's a nutter but he's not that stupid - and, since we have, at times, moved the ball down the line to score with an overlap, it's clear that he hasn't made it a requirement to kick in those circumstances - that's down to the players not making the right choice.