The Official English Rugby Thread

[Torquemada 1420]

Eugh. And the funny thing is, we're actually starting to see a resurgence in proper counter-rucking in the Premiership, which doesn't involve this sort of bullshit.

Still think the solution is the same as taking the hit out of the scrum engagement: you have to bind to the opponent in the ruck before pushing.

But yes, if refereed properly, the danger levels are clearly less than the madness of last night.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

This game has been all about the breakdown. Sarries have been excellent there whilst Exeter have been inaccurate and, as a result, forced to concede pen after pen. Feels like the Devon side needs a rethink on tactics for next season i.e. they've been found out.

They've always been one of the less breakdown oriented sides and without Sam Simmonds or LCD there, they lose a lot of their threat in that area.

They need tactics that reflect their personnel. Over the course of the last couple of seasons their pack personnel have changed and they can no longer steam roll other teams in the way they'd become accustomed.

The requirement to rebuild hits every side at some point and often comes with a dip in performance. It's remarkable that Exeter have managed to go this long without that being the case.

When they first promoted up they had a massive focus on the breakdown, some of it more than a little illegal but refs often let them off as they were the plucky underdogs, arguably they had little if not nothing outside their breakdown focus. As they've built in stature and tried to add more to their game it's perhaps fair to say their focus has shifted, and there is much of their attack is what it is partly to make it much easier to support, be functional in the set piece, win collisions, have players who can initiate breaks, to date they haven't wanted to move away from a highly structured approach to trusting decision making much more ball in hand and critically in their support play. If they can find the next Gorgodze to replace Ewers they might not even need to change, but finding a talent that good looks about as tricky as allowing much more fluidity on attack

[Kawazaki]

The last round of Premiership league games is on the 4th June with the semi-finals played a week later on the 11th June. Final on the 18th.

At the moment, in the second semi-final, it looks like Saracens will play Harlequins, probably at home although that is still to play for. Semi-finals tend to be much better games than finals. Is there another classic in the making...?

Saracens v Harlequins 2021/22 results;

13.02.22 Premiership
Saracens 19 v Harlequins 10
13.11.21 Premiership Cup
Saracens 28 v Harlequins 21
31.10.21 Premiership
Harlequins 22 v Saracens 29

Average score
Saracens 25.3pts
Harlequins 17.6pts

Gap 7.7pts

Was it Alex Ferguson who said that great attack wins games but great defence wins championships?

[Paddington Bear]

Think there's a strong case for any of the top three being the best in the country and champions, and any of 4-6 could put a run together to win it. Not always 100% on the standard but it really is an entertaining league

[Kawazaki]

Think there's a strong case for any of the top three being the best in the country and champions, and any of 4-6 could put a run together to win it. Not always 100% on the standard but it really is an entertaining league

I'd say there's virtually zero chance that any team outside of the current top-3 can win the Premiership.

There's definitely a gap in quality below third place. It's a decent carrot for Saracens to still try and get first place as that semi-final will be so much easier but it's very unlikely that Leicester will drop 4pts in their last 3 league games (even assuming Saracens can get a maximum 15pts from theirs).

[JM2K6]

This game has been all about the breakdown. Sarries have been excellent there whilst Exeter have been inaccurate and, as a result, forced to concede pen after pen. Feels like the Devon side needs a rethink on tactics for next season i.e. they've been found out.

They've always been one of the less breakdown oriented sides and without Sam Simmonds or LCD there, they lose a lot of their threat in that area.

They need tactics that reflect their personnel. Over the course of the last couple of seasons their pack personnel have changed and they can no longer steam roll other teams in the way they'd become accustomed.

The requirement to rebuild hits every side at some point and often comes with a dip in performance. It's remarkable that Exeter have managed to go this long without that being the case.

When they first promoted up they had a massive focus on the breakdown, some of it more than a little illegal but refs often let them off as they were the plucky underdogs, arguably they had little if not nothing outside their breakdown focus. As they've built in stature and tried to add more to their game it's perhaps fair to say their focus has shifted, and there is much of their attack is what it is partly to make it much easier to support, be functional in the set piece, win collisions, have players who can initiate breaks, to date they haven't wanted to move away from a highly structured approach to trusting decision making much more ball in hand and critically in their support play. If they can find the next Gorgodze to replace Ewers they might not even need to change, but finding a talent that good looks about as tricky as allowing much more fluidity on attack

Yeah, they were clever in their recruitment and getting in Julian Salvi was a huge moment for them. Waldrom was good over the ball too, and Ewers used to be more of a menace before he just got too slow.

They really miss LCD and Simmonds.

[Torquemada 1420]

I'd say there's virtually zero chance that any team outside of the current top-3 can win the Premiership.

Yup. On form, Exeter the best of the rest despite what the table says with Saints above them.

Interesting battle for the last Euro slot.

[Torquemada 1420]

Yeah, they were clever in their recruitment and getting in Julian Salvi was a huge moment for them. Waldrom was good over the ball too, and Ewers used to be more of a menace before he just got too slow.

They really miss LCD and Simmonds.

Or Tigers were dim/profligate to let either of those 2 go. Waldrom's footballing skills were pretty amazing for a backrow too.

[JM2K6]

The last round of Premiership league games is on the 4th June with the semi-finals played a week later on the 11th June. Final on the 18th.

At the moment, in the second semi-final, it looks like Saracens will play Harlequins, probably at home although that is still to play for. Semi-finals tend to be much better games than finals. Is there another classic in the making...?

Saracens v Harlequins 2021/22 results;

13.02.22 Premiership
Saracens 19 v Harlequins 10
13.11.21 Premiership Cup
Saracens 28 v Harlequins 21
31.10.21 Premiership
Harlequins 22 v Saracens 29

Average score
Saracens 25.3pts
Harlequins 17.6pts

Gap 7.7pts

Was it Alex Ferguson who said that great attack wins games but great defence wins championships?

I think it's been a long time since that truism really was true in either a football or rugby context. You can be a great defensive side - see several French rugby teams over the years - and win fuck all because part of that was an almost pathological distrust of having the ball in your own half. Football ended up being dominated by sides like PSG, Real Madrid, and Barcelona, who scored bucket loads of goals but were ultimately not that impressive defence-wise (ranging from "decent" - Barcelona and the press - to really quite bad for PSG/Madrid at times).

Besides, you could've made the same argument last season. Quins had the 4th worst defensive record in the league. Exeter and Bristol had the best and second best, respectively. It didn't do either team much good on the day. Back then I thought Quins were comfortably the 4th best team in the league and that the three ahead of them were clearly the better sides. There's just more to it than that, though. And the top 4's contrasting fortunes this season suggest I was being unfair to Quins.

It's a bit odd to look at the Premiership cup game, or the Quins home game featuring two sides shorn of most of their top players, but I don't think anyone is shouting that Quins are the better side. What strikes me as odd about your post is that Saracens have scored the same number of tries as Quins this season and have scored a lot more points overall. So it's more that Saracens are the more well rounded team with an attack that is at least as effective as Quins this season and a better defence. Ergo, probably a better team. Still, with contrasting fortunes in terms of callups and injuries this season, it's not a foregone conclusion and I'm more than happy with how Quins have backed up last season's run to the title.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

This is a pretty watchable game. University final Durham vs Exeter from a couple of weeks back.

[JM2K6]

Yeah, they were clever in their recruitment and getting in Julian Salvi was a huge moment for them. Waldrom was good over the ball too, and Ewers used to be more of a menace before he just got too slow.

They really miss LCD and Simmonds.

Or Tigers were dim/profligate to let either of those 2 go. Waldrom's footballing skills were pretty amazing for a backrow too.

Waldrom was quality and Tigers had a really big clearout & signed a bunch of no-hopers that hurt them a few years down the line, but Salvi was replaced by Brendon O'Connor who at least started brightly and they also had the fantastic and sorely under-utilised Will Evans available. That's a lot of breakdown nous.

[Kawazaki]

The last round of Premiership league games is on the 4th June with the semi-finals played a week later on the 11th June. Final on the 18th.

At the moment, in the second semi-final, it looks like Saracens will play Harlequins, probably at home although that is still to play for. Semi-finals tend to be much better games than finals. Is there another classic in the making...?

Saracens v Harlequins 2021/22 results;

13.02.22 Premiership
Saracens 19 v Harlequins 10
13.11.21 Premiership Cup
Saracens 28 v Harlequins 21
31.10.21 Premiership
Harlequins 22 v Saracens 29

Average score
Saracens 25.3pts
Harlequins 17.6pts

Gap 7.7pts

Was it Alex Ferguson who said that great attack wins games but great defence wins championships?

I think it's been a long time since that truism really was true in either a football or rugby context. You can be a great defensive side - see several French rugby teams over the years - and win fuck all because part of that was an almost pathological distrust of having the ball in your own half. Football ended up being dominated by sides like PSG, Real Madrid, and Barcelona, who scored bucket loads of goals but were ultimately not that impressive defence-wise (ranging from "decent" - Barcelona and the press - to really quite bad for PSG/Madrid at times).

Besides, you could've made the same argument last season. Quins had the 4th worst defensive record in the league. Exeter and Bristol had the best and second best, respectively. It didn't do either team much good on the day. Back then I thought Quins were comfortably the 4th best team in the league and that the three ahead of them were clearly the better sides. There's just more to it than that, though. And the top 4's contrasting fortunes this season suggest I was being unfair to Quins.

It's a bit odd to look at the Premiership cup game, or the Quins home game featuring two sides shorn of most of their top players, but I don't think anyone is shouting that Quins are the better side. What strikes me as odd about your post is that Saracens have scored the same number of tries as Quins this season and have scored a lot more points overall. So it's more that Saracens are the more well rounded team with an attack that is at least as effective as Quins this season and a better defence. Ergo, probably a better team. Still, with contrasting fortunes in terms of callups and injuries this season, it's not a foregone conclusion and I'm more than happy with how Quins have backed up last season's run to the title.

[JM2K6]

Right, what's your point?

[Kawazaki]

The Alex Ferguson quote.

[JM2K6]

You kinda ignored everything I wrote, then.

[Kawazaki]

You kinda ignored everything I wrote, then.

I suspect Quins stats last season would be similar to the numbers in the charts above. Quins winning the league last year with those stats is the outlier.

I would add that that makes Quins a far more dangerous opponent.

[Margin__Walker]

Newcastle LI game finished 14-42 to LI.

Dickson watch highlight was a Double red (Gigena and Graham with the TMO pleading with him saying they shouldn't be reds) for handbags when 10 mins before a head on head tackle leading to an HIA given as a pen only ('low degree of danger').

... And both reds overturned. Second red LI have had overturned this season.

[JM2K6]

You kinda ignored everything I wrote, then.

I suspect Quins stats last season would be similar to the numbers in the charts above. Quins winning the league last year with those stats is the outlier.

I would add that that makes Quins a far more dangerous opponent.

I would add that Ferguson was talking about a bog standard league. Defence likely does win you those. After all, the two best defences were 1st and 2nd in the league last season. But the knockout stages are a different beast. Just seems strange to a) talk about defences winning championships when comparing to Quins in particular, given Quins won it last year with a poor defence, and b) to post the Saracens stats after I said their attack is at least as effective as Quins' on top of their defence being better...

(Would also add that the entire concept of bonus points skews Ferguson's point even further away from being relevant in rugby...)

[JM2K6]

Newcastle LI game finished 14-42 to LI.

Dickson watch highlight was a Double red (Gigena and Graham with the TMO pleading with him saying they shouldn't be reds) for handbags when 10 mins before a head on head tackle leading to an HIA given as a pen only ('low degree of danger').

... And both reds overturned. Second red LI have had overturned this season.

I'm not surprised, looked soft as shit

[Margin__Walker]

Newcastle LI game finished 14-42 to LI.

Dickson watch highlight was a Double red (Gigena and Graham with the TMO pleading with him saying they shouldn't be reds) for handbags when 10 mins before a head on head tackle leading to an HIA given as a pen only ('low degree of danger').

... And both reds overturned. Second red LI have had overturned this season.

I'm not surprised, looked soft as shit

Yep, super soft. The TMO did everything he could to tell him that at the time.

[Kawazaki]

You kinda ignored everything I wrote, then.

I suspect Quins stats last season would be similar to the numbers in the charts above. Quins winning the league last year with those stats is the outlier.

I would add that that makes Quins a far more dangerous opponent.

I would add that Ferguson was talking about a bog standard league. Defence likely does win you those. After all, the two best defences were 1st and 2nd in the league last season. But the knockout stages are a different beast. Just seems strange to a) talk about defences winning championships when comparing to Quins in particular, given Quins won it last year with a poor defence, and b) to post the Saracens stats after I said their attack is at least as effective as Quins' on top of their defence being better...

(Would also add that the entire concept of bonus points skews Ferguson's point even further away from being relevant in rugby...)

It's more weird that you think posting up stats that support your POV is weird but there you go. Ironically, you're being too defensive.

[inactionman]

This week's Watsongossip, brought to you by clueless and scurrilous Bath fans, has Anthony Watson heading off to Leicester.

I've no idea why his renewal is turning into such a palaver, but Bath need to sort his contract or his exit PDQ as it's not good not knowing if one of your highest paid is staying or going. I'm surprised that we're almost into May and it's not settled whether he's staying or not.

[JM2K6]

I suspect Quins stats last season would be similar to the numbers in the charts above. Quins winning the league last year with those stats is the outlier.

I would add that that makes Quins a far more dangerous opponent.

I would add that Ferguson was talking about a bog standard league. Defence likely does win you those. After all, the two best defences were 1st and 2nd in the league last season. But the knockout stages are a different beast. Just seems strange to a) talk about defences winning championships when comparing to Quins in particular, given Quins won it last year with a poor defence, and b) to post the Saracens stats after I said their attack is at least as effective as Quins' on top of their defence being better...

(Would also add that the entire concept of bonus points skews Ferguson's point even further away from being relevant in rugby...)

It's more weird that you think posting up stats that support your POV is weird but there you go. Ironically, you're being too defensive.

I had already said that Saracens had a much better defence and an attack at least as effective as Quins - because the stats already show that. You can see them on the table, it doesn't really need any explaining. Are we just talking about how good Saracens are? Because, cool, they're really good, we agree. Not much mileage to be gained there.

But yeah, Ferguson's truism became outdated a while back in football and is increasingly less relevant (or increasingly more facile an observation) in rugby.

[Kawazaki]

You're too keen to get offended JM. You missed my compliment about Quins.

[JM2K6]

Ah yes, seething with indignation here. Or alternatively, slightly puzzled and shrugging my shoulders.

[Margin__Walker]

Teams for LI v Leicester in the Prem Cup this evening (BT Sport)

[sockwithaticket]

Slightly fortuitous bounce, but that was a very well taken try from Arundell.

Can we cap him in the Summer just to stop the Scots sniffing around?

[Ovals]

Quirke out of the England Australia tour - having an op on his hamstring - Shame because it doesn't look like Youngs will be going and it was a good chance to see him at that level again.

[sockwithaticket]

Irish's more senior outfit are absolutely dominating Tigers now.

Quirke out of the England Australia tour - having an op on his hamstring - Shame because it doesn't look like Youngs will be going and it was a good chance to see him at that level again.

That is disappointing. Hopefully Randall and Mitchell stay fit.

[Margin__Walker]

Slightly fortuitous bounce, but that was a very well taken try from Arundell.

Can we cap him in the Summer just to stop the Scots sniffing around?

Doubt Eddie would parachute him in in a Tier 1 tour, but losing him to the Scots would be criminal. He's a lot of fun to watch and I've not seen anyone come through as impressive at the same age as him at LI.

Decent half that.

[Ovals]

Irish's more senior outfit are absolutely dominating Tigers now.

Quirke out of the England Australia tour - having an op on his hamstring - Shame because it doesn't look like Youngs will be going and it was a good chance to see him at that level again.

That is disappointing. Hopefully Randall and Mitchell stay fit.

How about Van Poortvliet ? How far away is he ?

[sockwithaticket]

Irish's more senior outfit are absolutely dominating Tigers now.

Quirke out of the England Australia tour - having an op on his hamstring - Shame because it doesn't look like Youngs will be going and it was a good chance to see him at that level again.

That is disappointing. Hopefully Randall and Mitchell stay fit.

How about Van Poortvliet ? How far away is he ?

He's a few years younger than that pair and at times it shows. They also both have a lot more natural flair than him, he's more in the petit-general mode.

[JM2K6]

8 tries in under an hour for London Irish. There's no way tigers can win the league with a defence like this.

[notfatcat]

Tigers are woeful. It's quite surprising.

[Kawazaki]

Ben Spencer is a better 9 than those options.

But Eddie.


#twat

[Kawazaki]

Tigers are woeful. It's quite surprising.

This match won't be good for team confidence that's for sure. What quality is the Leicester team?

[sockwithaticket]

Tigers are woeful. It's quite surprising.

This match won't be good for team confidence that's for sure. What quality is the Leicester team?

Margin posted the teams further up. There's a fair number of 'who the fuck are they?' players in the Tigers line up.

[notfatcat]

Tigers are woeful. It's quite surprising.

This match won't be good for team confidence that's for sure. What quality is the Leicester team?

Margin posted the teams further up. There's a fair number of 'who the fuck are they?' players in the Tigers line up.

Irish picked a noticeably stronger team than Quins' bunch of 'who the fuck are theys' but at least Quins gave it a lash and kept it respectable.

[JM2K6]

In case anyone is in danger of taking this seriously, this game in the development competition is taking place three days afterLeicester played in the league and four days before they play a knockout game against Leinster. I'm surprised we recognise as many tigers players as we do.

[sockwithaticket]

In case anyone is in danger of taking this seriously, this game in the development competition is taking place three days afterLeicester played in the league and four days before they play a knockout game against Leinster. I'm surprised we recognise as many tigers players as we do.

It's Prem at the weekend, they're playing Bristol.

Not that I'm taking a Prem Cup game seriously, but it is unusual to see the knockouts taken so unseriously in terms of selection, especially when the team is home and hosed in the league and playing one of the poorer sides of the year.