NZ North vs South Game Thread

[Certain Navigator]

So I gather the critics would prefer the criteria be school first XV.

Born or raised. i.e. the traditional North v South criteria. However, I take AC's point about having an even contest, given that this is essentially a trial match. Which adds weight to my bitch about the bullshit criteria NZRU have cooked up, trying to sell a trial dressed up as North v South is typical.

The 'traditional' north-south criterion was simply what province players were representing at the time. Kel Tremain, Ian Kirkpatrick and Wilson Whineray all started out representing the South (when at Lincoln) and subsequently switched to the north. It had precisely nothing to do with 'born or raised'.

The equivalent in today's rugby landscape — current soup team — would have made a lot more sense than what's actually being applied. The demarcation would have been both interesting (Highlanders/Crusaders vs Chiefs/Blues/Canes) and equitable (South have only 4 of the 14 NPC teams, but 2 of the 5 soup franchises).

[Certain Navigator]

Yeah, Frizell has to stay at 6. But is Sanders a potential test no.8?

Nope, but the NI have two high quality 8's in Savea and Sotutu. I cant believe that Marino Mika'ele-Tu'u missed out on selection or this game, but I guess Savea is thge incumbent and Soutu considered the next best cab off the rank. MMT would have been the SI's first choice no.8 for certain.

MMT was very average in a clutch game vs the Crusaders

But he completely over-shadowed Sotutu in a clutch game against the Blues.

[Gumboot]

MMT was very average in a clutch game vs the Crusaders

But he completely over-shadowed Sotutu in a clutch game against the Blues.

Was that the Round 3 game when he let Caleb Clarke waltz past him to score in the first 5 minutes?

[Carter's Choice]

It's funny how the Ardie Savea fanboys have suddenly discovered that Marino Mika'ele-Tu'u cannot tackle. Where were these defensive concerns during the duration of the Super Rugby Aotearoa season? The reality is that Savea fans shouldn't be hating on MMT, they should be hating on Sam Cane. Ardie Savea has the potential to be the best openside flanker on the planet. But Ian Foster is in love with Sam Cane, and seems determined to force Savea into the no.8 position, where he will be adequate at best.

[Jb1981]

Stats can be misleading, these guys don’t all play the same position, raw numbers don’t account for impact on the game, and there is a lot more to the game than simply running and tackling etc.

But ... I was bored and a benefit of working from home is having time to look up random numbers.

Purely looking at metres per carry and tackling success, these were the stats for a range of loose forwards across 2020 Super Rugby (Aotearoa or pre-Covid):

Metres per carry:

1. Hoskins Sotutu: 3.5m
2. Dalton Papalii: 3.3m
3. Marino Mikaele Tu’u: 3.2m
4=. Ardie Savea: 3.1m
4=. Lachlan Boshier: 3.1m
6. Du’plessis Kirifi: 3.1m
7. Tom Sanders: 2.5m
8. Shannon Frizell: 2.4m
9. Pita Sowakulu: 2.2m
10. Akira Ioane: 2.1m
11. Sam Cane: 1.6m
12. Whetu Douglas: 1.4m
13. Billy Harmon: 1.3m

Tackling %:

1. Ardie Savea: 94%
2=. Hoskins Sotutu: 91%
2=. Dalton Papalii: 91%
2=. Lachlan Boshier: 91%
5. Tom Sanders: 89%
6. Akira Ioane: 88%
6=. Whetu Douglas: 88%
8=. Marino Mikaele Tu’u: 87%
8=. Du’plessi Kirifi: 87%
8=. Sam Cane: 87%
11=. Shannon Frizzell: 85%
11=. Pita Sowakulu: 85%
13. Billy Harmon: 84%

[Gumboot]

It's funny how the Ardie Savea fanboys have suddenly discovered that Marino Mika'ele-Tu'u cannot tackle. Where were these defensive concerns during the duration of the Super Rugby Aotearoa season? The reality is that Savea fans shouldn't be hating on MMT, they should be hating on Sam Cane. Ardie Savea has the potential to be the best openside flanker on the planet. But Ian Foster is in love with Sam Cane, and seems determined to force Savea into the no.8 position, where he will be adequate at best.

Are you suggesting Sam Cane should be dropped from the All Blacks to make room for Mikaele Tu'u?

[mrbrownstone]

Stats can be misleading, these guys don’t all play the same position, raw numbers don’t account for impact on the game, and there is a lot more to the game than simply running and tackling etc.

But ... I was bored and a benefit of working from home is having time to look up random numbers.

Purely looking at metres per carry and tackling success, these were the stats for a range of loose forwards across 2020 Super Rugby (Aotearoa or pre-Covid):

Metres per carry:

1. Hoskins Sotutu: 3.5m
2. Dalton Papalii: 3.3m
3. Marino Mikaele Tu’u: 3.2m
4=. Ardie Savea: 3.1m
4=. Lachlan Boshier: 3.1m
6. Du’plessis Kirifi: 3.1m
7. Tom Sanders: 2.5m
8. Shannon Frizell: 2.4m
9. Pita Sowakulu: 2.2m
10. Akira Ioane: 2.1m
11. Sam Cane: 1.6m
12. Whetu Douglas: 1.4m
13. Billy Harmon: 1.3m

Tackling %:

1. Ardie Savea: 94%
2=. Hoskins Sotutu: 91%
2=. Dalton Papalii: 91%
2=. Lachlan Boshier: 91%
5. Tom Sanders: 89%
6. Akira Ioane: 88%
6=. Whetu Douglas: 88%
8=. Marino Mikaele Tu’u: 87%
8=. Du’plessi Kirifi: 87%
8=. Sam Cane: 87%
11=. Shannon Frizzell: 85%
11=. Pita Sowakulu: 85%
13. Billy Harmon: 84%

It's weird to see Frizell so low on both lists, considering the general consensus that he's in career-best form and probably the form 6 in the country. As you say, stats don't always tell the full story.

Also strange to see how quickly people can go from complaining about Sam Cane being dropped for the World Cup semi, to suggesting he should be dropped now...without a single test being played in between.

[Carter's Choice]

TBH, in eight games most/all of those loose forwards would not have mad 100 tackles. So MMT may have missed a couple more takes than players above him on the list. Richie McCaw always prided himself on having a relatively low tackle completion rate, because he attempted more tackles than anyone, and he also attempted tackles that none of the rest of his teammates would have gotten anywhere near.

[JM2K6]

MMT frequently attempts fewer tackles than his back row colleagues from what I remember from my look at his stats the other day.

[Carter's Choice]

MMT frequently attempts fewer tackles than his back row colleagues from what I remember from my look at his stats the other day.

Why do you hate Marino Mika'ele-Tu'u? Is it because his surname is hard to pronounce?

[JM2K6]

MMT frequently attempts fewer tackles than his back row colleagues from what I remember from my look at his stats the other day.

Why do you hate Marino Mika'ele-Tu'u? Is it because his surname is hard to pronounce?

Is it? Can't say I'd noticed, seems easy enough.

I am however fascinated that you can't handle my input - a factual interjection with no malice intended - without accusing me of being a racist though. The constant hostility is unwarranted and frankly bizarre. Don't dump your insecurities on me. I enjoy talking about rugby and I'd rather do it without you constantly blowing up at me.

[Carter's Choice]

MMT frequently attempts fewer tackles than his back row colleagues from what I remember from my look at his stats the other day.

Why do you hate Marino Mika'ele-Tu'u? Is it because his surname is hard to pronounce?

Is it? Can't say I'd noticed, seems easy enough.

I am however fascinated that you can't handle my input - a factual interjection with no malice intended - without accusing me of being a racist though. The constant hostility is unwarranted and frankly bizarre. Don't dump your insecurities on me. I enjoy talking about rugby and I'd rather do it without you constantly blowing up at me.

I didn't think my quoted comment was overly hostile. It was simply a question. Whilst the word "hate" may have been unwarranted, your commentary on Mike'ele-Tu'u has been exclusively negative on this thread. Which is weird given the youngster has had by far his best season at senior level and has, IMO, been clearly the best no.8 in New Zealand.

[JM2K6]

I've made two posts about him. One to provide some statistical basis for a comment about his defending that someone else made. Another, referencing the same data, to suggest there isn't a statistical basis for a comment you made about his defending. I've made no other comments on how he plays, how good he is, or how good his form is.

For that I am accused of being a bit racist.

Wind your neck in. I know it's your schtick but you're jumping way over the line with that one.

[Carter's Choice]

I've made two posts about him. One to provide some statistical basis for a comment about his defending that someone else made. Another, referencing the same data, to suggest there isn't a statistical basis for a comment you made about his defending. I've made no other comments on how he plays, how good he is, or how good his form is.

For that I am accused of being a bit racist.

Wind your neck in. I know it's your schtick but you're jumping way over the line with that one.

When did I accuse you of being racist? Are you feeling okay?

[JM2K6]

"Why do you hate this player, is it because you can't pronounce his surname" is definitely implying that the person you're talking to is racist, yeah.

Look, no-one else wants to read a shitfight between you and me on this thread. Especially when there's literally no basis for one: if you cannot handle someone posting some stats as context for an ongoing discussion, then that's your problem. You making it weirdly hostile again like you did in the other thread is just making this place slightly worse for everyone. Just stop?

[Carter's Choice]

"Why do you hate this player, is it because you can't pronounce his surname" is definitely implying that the person you're talking to is racist, yeah.

Look, no-one else wants to read a shitfight between you and me on this thread. Especially when there's literally no basis for one: if you cannot handle someone posting some stats as context for an ongoing discussion, then that's your problem. You making it weirdly hostile again like you did in the other thread is just making this place slightly worse for everyone. Just stop?

I reject your assertion that I was being hostile. And I clearly did not call you racist. You're the only person on this thread who is clearly desperate for shit-fight.

[JM2K6]

[Carter's Choice]

Is that a picture of you trolling Marino Mika'ele-Tu'u?

[JM2K6]

Just stop, dude. You went too far and I'm tired and bored of having you snapping at my heels whenever I post.

[Carter's Choice]

Just stop, dude. You went too far and I'm tired and bored of having you snapping at my heels whenever I post.

I think you are over-reacting. No-one is snapping at your heels.

[Monkey Magic]

Stats can be misleading, these guys don’t all play the same position, raw numbers don’t account for impact on the game, and there is a lot more to the game than simply running and tackling etc.

But ... I was bored and a benefit of working from home is having time to look up random numbers.

Purely looking at metres per carry and tackling success, these were the stats for a range of loose forwards across 2020 Super Rugby (Aotearoa or pre-Covid):

Metres per carry:

1. Hoskins Sotutu: 3.5m
2. Dalton Papalii: 3.3m
3. Marino Mikaele Tu’u: 3.2m
4=. Ardie Savea: 3.1m
4=. Lachlan Boshier: 3.1m
6. Du’plessis Kirifi: 3.1m
7. Tom Sanders: 2.5m
8. Shannon Frizell: 2.4m
9. Pita Sowakulu: 2.2m
10. Akira Ioane: 2.1m
11. Sam Cane: 1.6m
12. Whetu Douglas: 1.4m
13. Billy Harmon: 1.3m

Tackling %:

1. Ardie Savea: 94%
2=. Hoskins Sotutu: 91%
2=. Dalton Papalii: 91%
2=. Lachlan Boshier: 91%
5. Tom Sanders: 89%
6. Akira Ioane: 88%
6=. Whetu Douglas: 88%
8=. Marino Mikaele Tu’u: 87%
8=. Du’plessi Kirifi: 87%
8=. Sam Cane: 87%
11=. Shannon Frizzell: 85%
11=. Pita Sowakulu: 85%
13. Billy Harmon: 84%

Where did you get the stats from?

I have to go into the office tomorrow and would be good to throw some into some spreadsheets so I look busy

[JM2K6]

You can collect up stats for each match from espnscrum.com (which may not be the source JB1981 used)

[Carter's Choice]

NZ based posters, any word on whether this match is going ahead given the current restrictions in Auckland?

[Jb1981]

You can collect up stats for each match from espnscrum.com (which may not be the source JB1981 used)

I used the first one I came across:

https://www.rugbypass.com/.

I don’t know how it compares to ESPN but there were a lot of other stats available.

My conscience got the better of me with it being work time so I only looked at a couple of things. I went old school and used pen and paper too rather than the work computer .

[Guy Smiley]

Just stop, dude. You went too far and I'm tired and bored of having you snapping at my heels whenever I post.

I think you are over-reacting. No-one is snapping at your heels.

Look at you go, Snappy.

[JPNZ]

NZ based posters, any word on whether this match is going ahead given the current restrictions in Auckland?

If I was a betting man (that's such a common turn of phrase because I love betting) I would have odds on this being pushed back. There are two options currently I can see all depend on what happens with L3 and L2 in NZ.

1. Push it back so all players can play (still in Auckland) though this may encroach on M10 Cup which starts 11 September. Auckland will still be in level 2 then I would expect, so no crowd but all players

2. If the rest of NZ drops to level 1, have it next weekend but in Wellington. Obviously will struggle to have those 13 Auckland based players as they can't practice or even play if L3 gets extended in Auckland.

NZR will be shitting their pants right now, because there has been a lot of talk about a new level 1.5 with more freedoms but less event numbers & more social distancing.

[Enzedder]

Isn't it a little weird that Pari Pari Parkinson hasn't been selected? Is he injured or do they want to give him a rest?

Rest for what? the Mitre 10 Cup? lol

Yes very weird since he was one of the form locks in the comp. Another example of Ian Foster's incompetence as a selector.

He's injured.

Another example of CC's incompetence as a poster?

[Enzedder]

NZ based posters, any word on whether this match is going ahead given the current restrictions in Auckland?

Signs are good for Auckland under Covid restrictions (decision on Monday from cabinet).

I think they will decide after the cabinet meeting

[Carter's Choice]

Rest for what? the Mitre 10 Cup? lol

Yes very weird since he was one of the form locks in the comp. Another example of Ian Foster's incompetence as a selector.

He's injured.

Another example of CC's incompetence as a poster?

Hey now, I thought the rules on this forum were attack the post, not the poster?

[Enzedder]

He's injured.

Another example of CC's incompetence as a poster?

Hey now, I thought the rules on this forum were attack the post, not the poster?

Look up - you will see I mirrored one of your posts (and I had my tongue in my cheek too)

[Wild Beef]

And Barrett is named at 1st five for the Norf. Foster is going to do it isn’t he. Barrett will be his first choice. This is going to be a tough few years under his reign.

Just as long as they don’t go with Gatland in a couple of years to replace him. They wouldn’t do that would they? Would they?

This whole game is a marketing stunt, which is why the criteria is set how it is (to get a close game).

1. BB is probably the most marketable player the AB’s have right now.

2. They can cash in on the Mo’unga vs BB narrative that the pundits love more than the actual result.

It’s good business sense.

[Gumboot]

Anyone know if they're gonna have the normal 8-player benches or if it'll be like the "game of 3 halves" and everyone in the squads will get a run?

[wet-socks]

Anyone know if they're gonna have the normal 8-player benches or if it'll be like the "game of 3 halves" and everyone in the squads will get a run?

Nth vs Sth is an historic fixture, no chance it'll deviate from past editions.

[Gumboot]

Anyone know if they're gonna have the normal 8-player benches or if it'll be like the "game of 3 halves" and everyone in the squads will get a run?

Nth vs Sth is an historic fixture, no chance it'll deviate from past editions.

Nice edit.

Not sure that's right, though. Hence the question.

[Gumboot]

The game's been delayed a week, till 5 September. Venue yet to be decided.

[Carter's Choice]

The game's been delayed a week, till 5 September. Venue yet to be decided.

Better than being completely canceled. Is there a plan to move the Aucklanders out of Auckland for this?

In hindsight, with almost no chance of test Rugby being played in 2020, I think this should have been a three match series.

[Gumboot]

The game's been delayed a week, till 5 September. Venue yet to be decided.

Better than being completely canceled. Is there a plan to move the Aucklanders out of Auckland for this?

In hindsight, with almost no chance of test Rugby being played in 2020, I think this should have been a three match series.

They're gonna make a call on the venue after the govt's alert level announcement on Monday. Based on that, the Auckland based players might not need to travel.

[Jambanja]

The game's been delayed a week, till 5 September. Venue yet to be decided.

Better than being completely canceled. Is there a plan to move the Aucklanders out of Auckland for this?

In hindsight, with almost no chance of test Rugby being played in 2020, I think this should have been a three match series.

Firstly, all applications for exemptions for the Auckland based players have been declined by the Minister of Health
Secondly, if they can’t Get the game played by 5th September then it will be canceled because it will then interrupt the NPC
And C, I think it could replace the end of year tests

[Enzedder]

Ministry of Health, not the Minister Jammy.

I hope they wait as this game needs a crowd

[JPNZ]

So its been postponed until Saturday the 5th September (one week) surely this means that NZR has some inside info from the government about levels being eased otherwise they would have shifted it to Wellington.

If NZ Rugby can’t stage the North versus South game on September 5 the fixture will be canned, potentially denying it a windfall of around $1 million.

NZ Rugby announced Friday the inter-island fixture, originally slated to be played at Eden Park in Auckland on August 29, had been postponed. The Government’s decision to place Auckland in alert level 3 lockdown following the recent outbreak of the virus in the city, and the rest of New Zealand in level 2, has forced NZ Rugby to scramble for a solution as it tries to launch a game that will rake in some much-needed money after the pandemic threw its international calendar into disarray.

NZ Rugby still hopes to play the match at Eden Park, which could reap about $1 million if the 43,000-capacity stadium is sold out, but acknowledges any decision will be determined by the alert levels.