Heineken Champions/Challenge Cup 2022 Semi-Finals Weekend

[Kawazaki]

Fair enough JMK. Really, the clubs take on too much of the earnings of the internationals.

Well, it's changed for the better. But I'd say we pay players too much in general in this sport. Certainly in this country.

What worries me about "the RFU should just pay more of the salary" is that there can only be so many internationals, and if a club is able to have more than the average then there's more salary available to them to have quality replacements - essentially meaning that the strong get stronger and it's less of a level playing field. If Eddie decided one year that Marler, Collier, Dombrandt, Evans, Smith, Marchant, and Lynagh were all people he wanted to select regularly, that's seven players that Quins would lose for part of the season but would be able to afford an additional x players of decent quality, meaning that for much of the season they benefit from a bigger squad than everyone else and also don't lose as much when the internationals are on.

Plus I'm not up to speed on it but last I heard the RFU were a financial basket case...

The RFU generate far more income than any other union which does make you wonder how on earth they manage to squander so much of it.

I don't think the RFU could ever go to a central contact model, first and foremost because they simply couldn't afford to buy secondly, why would they? At the moment they get any EQP they want for as many tests at they want for £80k a year. It's the bargain of the century.

[RichieRich89]

Bernard Jackman said on the Rugby Pod he had no doubt what the Leinster squad is getting paid is higher than anything in France. He reckoned 2-3 million more.

[Kawazaki]

Bernard Jackman said on the Rugby Pod he had no doubt what the Leinster squad is getting paid is higher than anything in France. He reckoned 2-3 million more.

Pfft, what does Bernard Jackman know? He's a troll.

[JM2K6]

Fair enough JMK. Really, the clubs take on too much of the earnings of the internationals.

Well, it's changed for the better. But I'd say we pay players too much in general in this sport. Certainly in this country.

What worries me about "the RFU should just pay more of the salary" is that there can only be so many internationals, and if a club is able to have more than the average then there's more salary available to them to have quality replacements - essentially meaning that the strong get stronger and it's less of a level playing field. If Eddie decided one year that Marler, Collier, Dombrandt, Evans, Smith, Marchant, and Lynagh were all people he wanted to select regularly, that's seven players that Quins would lose for part of the season but would be able to afford an additional x players of decent quality, meaning that for much of the season they benefit from a bigger squad than everyone else and also don't lose as much when the internationals are on.

Plus I'm not up to speed on it but last I heard the RFU were a financial basket case...

The RFU generate far more income than any other union which does make you wonder how on earth they manage to squander so much of it.

I don't think the RFU could ever go to a central contact model, first and foremost because they simply couldn't afford to buy secondly, why would they? At the moment they get any EQP they want for as many tests at they want for £80k a year. It's the bargain of the century.

That does somewhat ignore the large sums they pay the players directly!

[CM11]

Fair enough JMK. Really, the clubs take on too much of the earnings of the internationals.

Well, it's changed for the better. But I'd say we pay players too much in general in this sport. Certainly in this country.

What worries me about "the RFU should just pay more of the salary" is that there can only be so many internationals, and if a club is able to have more than the average then there's more salary available to them to have quality replacements - essentially meaning that the strong get stronger and it's less of a level playing field. If Eddie decided one year that Marler, Collier, Dombrandt, Evans, Smith, Marchant, and Lynagh were all people he wanted to select regularly, that's seven players that Quins would lose for part of the season but would be able to afford an additional x players of decent quality, meaning that for much of the season they benefit from a bigger squad than everyone else and also don't lose as much when the internationals are on.

Plus I'm not up to speed on it but last I heard the RFU were a financial basket case...

What happened in Ireland when the number of fixtures increased was that we ended up with more quality from grassroots due to more gametime when the internationals were away. Toga has turned this into 'how can Leinster afford this' but it's really just down to quality coming from grassroots and then getting gametime. If Quins have 7 players away then I wouldn't be advocating 7 signings of similar quality, but it should give more time to quality youngsters. Leinster have only signed a handful of players from outside the province over recent years (granted we have a huge grassroots advantage).

Of course this still gives Quins an advantage. They might not be spending much more but they're increasing their strength in depth and as you say success breeds success. It's where we're at at the moment but I still see issues once Sexton retires as he drives standards to an unbelievably high level.

[CM11]

Bernard Jackman said on the Rugby Pod he had no doubt what the Leinster squad is getting paid is higher than anything in France. He reckoned 2-3 million more.

Pfft, what does Bernard Jackman know? He's a troll.

You probably don't even know who he is, what with your ignorance of Irish rugby.

Why don't you go through the Leinster squad and let us know how much you think each player is paid?

[JM2K6]

Fair enough JMK. Really, the clubs take on too much of the earnings of the internationals.

Well, it's changed for the better. But I'd say we pay players too much in general in this sport. Certainly in this country.

What worries me about "the RFU should just pay more of the salary" is that there can only be so many internationals, and if a club is able to have more than the average then there's more salary available to them to have quality replacements - essentially meaning that the strong get stronger and it's less of a level playing field. If Eddie decided one year that Marler, Collier, Dombrandt, Evans, Smith, Marchant, and Lynagh were all people he wanted to select regularly, that's seven players that Quins would lose for part of the season but would be able to afford an additional x players of decent quality, meaning that for much of the season they benefit from a bigger squad than everyone else and also don't lose as much when the internationals are on.

Plus I'm not up to speed on it but last I heard the RFU were a financial basket case...

What happened in Ireland when the number of fixtures increased was that we ended up with more quality from grassroots due to more gametime when the internationals were away. Toga has turned this into 'how can Leinster afford this' but it's really just down to quality coming from grassroots and then getting gametime. If Quins have 7 players away then I wouldn't be advocating 7 signings of similar quality, but it should give more time to quality youngsters. Leinster have only signed a handful of players from outside the province over recent years (granted we have a huge grassroots advantage).

Of course this still gives Quins an advantage. They might not be spending much more but they're increasing their strength in depth and as you say success breeds success. It's where we're at at the moment but I still see issues once Sexton retires as he drives standards to an unbelievably high level.

Right, but playing the youngsters is what teams do now - more money to spend probably means more money spent on hiring rather than promoting, unfortunately.

[Kawazaki]

Well, it's changed for the better. But I'd say we pay players too much in general in this sport. Certainly in this country.

What worries me about "the RFU should just pay more of the salary" is that there can only be so many internationals, and if a club is able to have more than the average then there's more salary available to them to have quality replacements - essentially meaning that the strong get stronger and it's less of a level playing field. If Eddie decided one year that Marler, Collier, Dombrandt, Evans, Smith, Marchant, and Lynagh were all people he wanted to select regularly, that's seven players that Quins would lose for part of the season but would be able to afford an additional x players of decent quality, meaning that for much of the season they benefit from a bigger squad than everyone else and also don't lose as much when the internationals are on.

Plus I'm not up to speed on it but last I heard the RFU were a financial basket case...

The RFU generate far more income than any other union which does make you wonder how on earth they manage to squander so much of it.

I don't think the RFU could ever go to a central contact model, first and foremost because they simply couldn't afford to buy secondly, why would they? At the moment they get any EQP they want for as many tests at they want for £80k a year. It's the bargain of the century.

That does somewhat ignore the large sums they pay the players directly!

Of course, but they only pay for what they use don't they. If you have any answers as to why the RFU have a match fee so much higher than anyone else then please share!

[Kawazaki]

Bernard Jackman said on the Rugby Pod he had no doubt what the Leinster squad is getting paid is higher than anything in France. He reckoned 2-3 million more.

Pfft, what does Bernard Jackman know? He's a troll.

You probably don't even know who he is, what with your ignorance of Irish rugby.

Why don't you go through the Leinster squad and let us know how much you think each player is paid?

I'll listen to Bernard Jackman and let you know.



Jackman comes in at 27:30

[CM11]

Do you see progression of those youngsters? @ JMK

[Kawazaki]

Bernard Jackman

I've no doubt that Leinster get more (money) than any of the French clubs, and probably €2-3m more.

There shouldn't be a salary cap in the URC, it should be the survival of the fittest.

[robmatic]

Given that what is being argued about is the cost of players (specifically their remuneration), if the IRFU is picking up the tab for all the intl players, then Leinster's wage bill is effectively zero. What is also being missed here (this is a fact and not a judgement) is that by having all their intls effectively concentrated in 3 teams means those sides don't need to worry (so much) about recruiting intls to be able to compete.

I'm not sure I agree with the logic of this. In the Proxx/URC, having your internationals concentrated in fewer teams means that teams need to recruit enough decent standard players to fill in when they have 10 players away with the national team for large chunks of the season, otherwise they end up getting beaten by Connacht etc.

No. They don't. As had been repeatedly pointed out, the URC (and its predecessors) is such a weak comp that the Irish sides have largely rested their key players (incl intls) for all but big games.

It's impressive that the Irish manage to generate so many international players and the revenue to pay them from such a weak league. Sounds like the English and the French clubs are failing to commercially exploit their far superior product.

[Tichtheid]

Bernard Jackman

I've no doubt that Leinster get more (money) than any of the French clubs, and probably €2-3m more.

There shouldn't be a salary cap in the URC, it should be the survival of the fittest.

It's difficult to tell from those quotes, but is Bernard suggesting the removal of a salary cap in the URC?

Or just that things should stay as they are with no salary cap beyond the financial survival of the Unions?

Survival of the fittest is what we have now.

[Kawazaki]

Bernard Jackman

I've no doubt that Leinster get more (money) than any of the French clubs, and probably €2-3m more.

There shouldn't be a salary cap in the URC, it should be the survival of the fittest.

It's difficult to tell from those quotes, but is Bernard suggesting the removal of a salary cap in the URC?

Or just that things should stay as they are with no salary cap beyond the financial survival of the Unions?

Survival of the fittest is what we have now.

There isn't a cap in the URC to remove, he was asked if there should be one like there is in England and France.

I think by survival he meant win at all costs by any means available.

[JM2K6]

Do you see progression of those youngsters? @ JMK

Absolutely. And in part because everyone's having to do it, so it's not like we get a team of kids vs a team of gnarled veterans all the time. I'm just cautious about anything that skews that.

[CM11]

Do you see progression of those youngsters? @ JMK

Absolutely. And in part because everyone's having to do it, so it's not like we get a team of kids vs a team of gnarled veterans all the time. I'm just cautious about anything that skews that.

[Kawazaki]

Bernard I saw Bernard recently congratulate a really well known player who he had played with on his new job. Problem? It was the well known players brother who had got the job and he was on the brothers page

Next time you see him, ask him what the Leinster budget is. Or listen to him on the link above.

[PornDog]

Birch is like Lord Bald - a complete spoofer who doesn't know what he's talking about, but is willing to tell it to everyone. Seriously he's on every single media outlet over here - RTE, Newstalk, the42 - I'm sure he's even been on TV3, JOE and Balls as well.


But luckily maths is still maths Toga, and your figures just have to add up. Show me your workings and I might start to believe your answer - but you've repeatedly dodged and changed tack every time I've asked you.




Sorry JM

[TheFrog]

Do you suppose that Leinster would be at the top of the T14 if they didn't play their best players more than they need to in the URC to achieve the same?

Leinster are a very good team, they're the Ireland team in blue shirts, of course they're good. The current competitions they compete in compliment their model almost perfectly. That's great for Leinster and by extension Ireland.

I think they would probably do quite well in the T14 with their rotation policy, they've got a lot of quality in their wider squad and the weaker sides they put out never capitulate away from home.

I think you're right. They have more depth than any Tip14 side i suspect.

[TheFrog]

I'm not sure I agree with the logic of this. In the Proxx/URC, having your internationals concentrated in fewer teams means that teams need to recruit enough decent standard players to fill in when they have 10 players away with the national team for large chunks of the season, otherwise they end up getting beaten by Connacht etc.

No. They don't. As had been repeatedly pointed out, the URC (and its predecessors) is such a weak comp that the Irish sides have largely rested their key players (incl intls) for all but big games.

It's impressive that the Irish manage to generate so many international players and the revenue to pay them from such a weak league. Sounds like the English and the French clubs are failing to commercially exploit their far superior product.

How do Irish players salaries compare to salaries in the Top14 and Premiership?

I think that one of the underlying factor here is that rugby isn't truly an open market, thanks to federal rules preventing the best players from moving abroad for fear of losing on caps.

Then, within each local championship, the economy is driven by funds avalaible, demand and offer. In France, clubs are obliged to have a quota of French academies trained players, which in turn generated an inflation in the salaries of kids who qualified under these rules (and caused foreign players - even if capped by France - to lose their jobs).

Having too many current internationals in the squad is also an issue for French clubs, having to play games during the international window.

So the clubs will hire a mix of old foreign glories they can rely on when the internationals are away, internationals for those who can afford them and JIFF (guys coming from French academies). Although they could pay them less, they have no interest in signing a average foreign player as he would be using one of the previous spots not affected to quotas, where there is more value signing a retired foreign international, especially if he comes from the South where salaries are lower.

[Kawazaki]

Birch is like Lord Bald - a complete spoofer who doesn't know what he's talking about, but is willing to tell it to everyone. Seriously he's on every single media outlet over here - RTE, Newstalk, the42 - I'm sure he's even been on TV3, JOE and Balls as well.


But luckily maths is still maths Toga, and your figures just have to add up. Show me your workings and I might start to believe your answer - but you've repeatedly dodged and changed tack every time I've asked you.




Sorry JM

Leinster and the IRFU are extremely opaque with their numbers or at least how they distribute funds. You could say that they don't need to tell anyone as there isn't a cap and there's no governance officer to report to but there's more than a hint of truth to the saying that 'nobody leaves Leinster', certainly no player that is still in their prime. That kind of loyalty costs money and other clubs in Europe know what the price for that loyalty is as I'm sure the players and their agents in Dublin do.

It's interesting that when a well-connected former Leinster player says that he thinks the Leinster budget is big, bigger even than the biggest French club budgets, the wagons circle and you immediately smear him. It's a telling reaction.

[CM11]

Birch is like Lord Bald - a complete spoofer who doesn't know what he's talking about, but is willing to tell it to everyone. Seriously he's on every single media outlet over here - RTE, Newstalk, the42 - I'm sure he's even been on TV3, JOE and Balls as well.


But luckily maths is still maths Toga, and your figures just have to add up. Show me your workings and I might start to believe your answer - but you've repeatedly dodged and changed tack every time I've asked you.




Sorry JM

Leinster and the IRFU are extremely opaque with their numbers or at least how they distribute funds. You could say that they don't need to tell anyone as there isn't a cap and there's no governance officer to report to but there's more than a hint of truth to the saying that 'nobody leaves Leinster', certainly no player that is still in their prime. That kind of loyalty costs money and other clubs in Europe know what the price for that loyalty is as I'm sure the players and their agents in Dublin do.

It's interesting that when a well-connected former Leinster player says that he thinks the Leinster budget is big, bigger even than the biggest French club budgets, the wagons circle and you immediately smear him. It's a telling reaction.

Irish players and their agents repeatedly mention they're happy to be paid less than market value because of how well they're treated and how that treatment elongates their career.

Jackman wouldn’t have any more clue than you would about how much players are being paid.

[Camroc2]

Jackman's a rent-a-mouth, and fair play to him for reinventing himself for one.

His coaching career has gone down so much that he's now reduced to schools coaching.

[laurent]

Jackman's a rent-a-mouth, and fair play to him for reinventing himself for one.

His coaching career has gone down so much that he's now reduced to schools coaching.

His 'Tarf Career was not great then his Grenoble rise was "special".

I read the book from a former charge @ grenoble ( good Pro D2 player and Algerian international + Captain was ok at top14 too).
He is less than complimentary...

[Torquemada 1420]

It's impressive that the Irish manage to generate so many international players and the revenue to pay them from such a weak league. Sounds like the English and the French clubs are failing to commercially exploit their far superior product.

Why do you think the quality of a league necessarily equates to the standard of a national side? Australia won a RWC (and arguably 2 i.e. before Soup proper) with no credible domestic structure at all.

On your second point, remind me what Ireland's RWC and 6N records are compared with England and France?

[Torquemada 1420]

Do you suppose that Leinster would be at the top of the T14 if they didn't play their best players more than they need to in the URC to achieve the same?

Leinster are a very good team, they're the Ireland team in blue shirts, of course they're good. The current competitions they compete in compliment their model almost perfectly. That's great for Leinster and by extension Ireland.

I think they would probably do quite well in the T14 with their rotation policy, they've got a lot of quality in their wider squad and the weaker sides they put out never capitulate away from home.

Of course, this is speculation, but my take is they'd always be there or thereabouts
- which is somewhat different to winning pretty much every season at a canter
- and to maintain this, they would have to put out decent strength sides most of the time
- and then we'd see what impact the attrition would have upon both Leinster and Ireland in terms of fatigue and injuries

[Torquemada 1420]

Jackman's a rent-a-mouth, and fair play to him for reinventing himself for one.

His coaching career has gone down so much that he's now reduced to schools coaching.

His 'Tarf Career was not great then his Grenoble rise was "special".

I read the book from a former charge @ grenoble ( good Pro D2 player and Algerian international + Captain was ok at top14 too).
He is less than complimentary...

I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Fre clubs, are notoriously difficult to coach by anyone other than Fre coaches. Even today, there are many where there is a resistance to aspects of professionalism such as fitness and repetitional practice. Richards only lasted a year or so at Grenoble before being ousted by the players and that was all down to their dislike of hard work. I can imagine Jackman suffered similar push back.

[laurent]

Jackman's a rent-a-mouth, and fair play to him for reinventing himself for one.

His coaching career has gone down so much that he's now reduced to schools coaching.

His 'Tarf Career was not great then his Grenoble rise was "special".

I read the book from a former charge @ grenoble ( good Pro D2 player and Algerian international + Captain was ok at top14 too).
He is less than complimentary...

I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Fre clubs, are notoriously difficult to coach by anyone other than Fre coaches. Even today, there are many where there is a resistance to aspects of professionalism such as fitness and repetitional practice. Richards only lasted a year or so at Grenoble before being ousted by the players and that was all down to their dislike of hard work. I can imagine Jackman suffered similar push back.

Considering he was captaining the side 1 year and more or less sacked the next ... I'd trust the French Player. Also I was a 'tarf Member while he coached us.

[JM2K6]

He also had his concussion problems iirc, in case anyone wanted to add that to the list of reasons to discredit him for, erm, apparently having an idea about Leinster's finances.

Fairly sure whoever the lead accountant is at Leinster would also do a shit job coaching a French club but I'm sure that's deeply relevant...

[Tichtheid]

It's impressive that the Irish manage to generate so many international players and the revenue to pay them from such a weak league. Sounds like the English and the French clubs are failing to commercially exploit their far superior product.

Why do you think the quality of a league necessarily equates to the standard of a national side? Australia won a RWC (and arguably 2 i.e. before Soup proper) with no credible domestic structure at all.

On your second point, remind me what Ireland's RWC and 6N records are compared with England and France?

I think the 6N wins is Eng 7, Fra, 6, Ire 4

World Cups is Eng 1, Fra 0, Ire 0

[Kawazaki]

World Cups is Eng 1, Fra 0, Ire 0

Amount of times in 6Ns shirt had colour green on it is;

Eng 0, Fra 0, Ire 22

That's emphatic.

[PornDog]

He also had his concussion problems iirc, in case anyone wanted to add that to the list of reasons to discredit him for, erm, apparently having an idea about Leinster's finances.

Fairly sure whoever the lead accountant is at Leinster would also do a shit job coaching a French club but I'm sure that's deeply relevant...

I agree - I'd also be fairly sure that the current Grenoble coach would have as good an insight into Leinster's finances as Birch does.

I just keep going back to the maths - unquestionably we pay our top players less than English and French clubs do theirs (probably excepting the likes of Grenoble in fairness) - for us to then be paying similar or more than those clubs in total we MUST be either paying our lower tiered players significantly more compared to Eng and Fre clubs, or we are paying significantly more players.

The latter has some fractional truth to it (Leinster has 7 more senior players and 5 fewer academy players than Gloucester has for instance), so unlikely to make more than an incremental difference to the overall wage packet. The former is frankly preposterous - close to impossible to believe (why would they pay more - there's no reason for it? Quite the opposite in fact.)

[Tichtheid]

I had a quick look and I can't find anything concrete on injuries, but it was only the one Google.

It would be interesting to find out the frequency of injuries in the three pro leagues in Europe and also in the Soup.

This is just anecdotal, but I'm not under the impression that Hoggy, Finn, Chris Harris, Johnny Gray or any starters in the Scotland side who are starters for their clubs are getting injured more than their counterparts who play in Scotland and are therefore subject to mandatory rest periods.

Anyone at Loughborough here looking for a PhD project?

[Kawazaki]

He also had his concussion problems iirc, in case anyone wanted to add that to the list of reasons to discredit him for, erm, apparently having an idea about Leinster's finances.

Fairly sure whoever the lead accountant is at Leinster would also do a shit job coaching a French club but I'm sure that's deeply relevant...

I agree - I'd also be fairly sure that the current Grenoble coach would have as good an insight into Leinster's finances as Birch does.

I just keep going back to the maths - unquestionably we pay our top players less than English and French clubs do theirs (probably excepting the likes of Grenoble in fairness) - for us to then be paying similar or more than those clubs in total we MUST be either paying our lower tiered players significantly more compared to Eng and Fre clubs, or we are paying significantly more players.

The latter has some fractional truth to it (Leinster has 7 more senior players and 5 fewer academy players than Gloucester has for instance), so unlikely to make more than an incremental difference to the overall wage packet. The former is frankly preposterous - close to impossible to believe (why would they pay more - there's no reason for it? Quite the opposite in fact.)

There is a scenario regards Leinster player remuneration that you might describe as the 'Saracens gambit' that you haven't considered.

[Torquemada 1420]

His 'Tarf Career was not great then his Grenoble rise was "special".

I read the book from a former charge @ grenoble ( good Pro D2 player and Algerian international + Captain was ok at top14 too).
He is less than complimentary...

I'd take that with a pinch of salt. Fre clubs, are notoriously difficult to coach by anyone other than Fre coaches. Even today, there are many where there is a resistance to aspects of professionalism such as fitness and repetitional practice. Richards only lasted a year or so at Grenoble before being ousted by the players and that was all down to their dislike of hard work. I can imagine Jackman suffered similar push back.

Considering he was captaining the side 1 year and more or less sacked the next ... I'd trust the French Player. Also I was a 'tarf Member while he coached us.

Player with axe to grind is not something new. Maybe Jackman is a d*ck but Richards has a decent record in coaching so Grenoble has form.

[Tichtheid]

As an aside, but related point, I was in M&S the other day for the first time in ages and as I walked up the stairs I was faced with a ten foot poster of Maro Itoje in a gray linen suit.

His frame can carry it off a lot better than I could.

[PornDog]

I also haven't considered the possibility that 8 foot tall green lizards are secretly ruling the Earth!

Food for thought indeed!

[Kawazaki]

As an aside, but related point, I was in M&S the other day for the first time in ages and as I walked up the stairs I was faced with a ten foot poster of Maro Itoje in a gray linen suit.

His frame can carry it off a lot better than I could.

Nigel Wray bought 30% of his image rights for an absolute snip.

[Torquemada 1420]

It's impressive that the Irish manage to generate so many international players and the revenue to pay them from such a weak league. Sounds like the English and the French clubs are failing to commercially exploit their far superior product.

Why do you think the quality of a league necessarily equates to the standard of a national side? Australia won a RWC (and arguably 2 i.e. before Soup proper) with no credible domestic structure at all.

On your second point, remind me what Ireland's RWC and 6N records are compared with England and France?

I think the 6N wins is Eng 7, Fra, 6, Ire 4

World Cups is Eng 1, Fra 0, Ire 0

So that's 13 to 4 in the 6N then.

You know that your RWC statement is silly but I'll point it out anyway: just how successful has Ire been in regards RWC performances. If you are going to argue that only winning the comp outright counts, then I'd suggest you call the IRFU and tell them so save their money on plane tickets.

[Kawazaki]

I also haven't considered the possibility that 8 foot tall green lizards are secretly ruling the Earth!

Food for thought indeed!

8ft tall green lizards are more believable than sports agents and players earning less than they should be.