The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

How about you tell me why someone being something other than English would have any bearing in those areas.

[Kawazaki]

How about you tell me why someone being something other than English would have any bearing in those areas.

There are just 5 slots available for ambitious referees in the RFU system to fill to be considered by World Rugby to get on the test rota. As a rough guess, how many English referees do you think have made it to test standard after being employed by the IRFU, or perhaps the SRU or WRU?

The peak of English rugby should be the peak for any high performing English player or referee just as it is for players and referees in all those other countries that don't employ English referees.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

So presumably he could/has refereed an IRB/WR internationally sanctioned match involving Ireland?

He has indeed reffed Ireland

[JM2K6]

How about you tell me why someone being something other than English would have any bearing in those areas.

There are just 5 slots available for ambitious referees in the RFU system to fill to be considered by World Rugby to get on the test rota. As a rough guess, how many English referees do you think have made it to test standard after being employed by the IRFU, or perhaps the SRU or WRU?

The peak of English rugby should be the peak for any high performing English player or referee just as it is for players and referees in all those other countries that don't employ English referees.

So we should sack everyone who isn't currently the best English ref?

[duke]

Doyle has been referring in the English system for the thick end of 20 years - as with any player, he's qualified on residency and, if he's good enough, deserves to have been selected as an international.

[Kawazaki]

How about you tell me why someone being something other than English would have any bearing in those areas.

There are just 5 slots available for ambitious referees in the RFU system to fill to be considered by World Rugby to get on the test rota. As a rough guess, how many English referees do you think have made it to test standard after being employed by the IRFU, or perhaps the SRU or WRU?

The peak of English rugby should be the peak for any high performing English player or referee just as it is for players and referees in all those other countries that don't employ English referees.

So we should sack everyone who isn't currently the best English ref?

Kathy Newman is here.

Hi Kathy

[Kawazaki]

Doyle has been referring in the English system for the thick end of 20 years - as with any player, he's qualified on residency and, if he's good enough, deserves to have been selected as an international.

He's a great ref, no doubt about that and should continue to referee at test level. But if you supported a team that was playing Ireland, would you be happy if JPD was the ref?

[sockwithaticket]

How about you tell me why someone being something other than English would have any bearing in those areas.

There are just 5 slots available for ambitious referees in the RFU system to fill to be considered by World Rugby to get on the test rota. As a rough guess, how many English referees do you think have made it to test standard after being employed by the IRFU, or perhaps the SRU or WRU?

The peak of English rugby should be the peak for any high performing English player or referee just as it is for players and referees in all those other countries that don't employ English referees.

0 because the number of English within their borders participating in rugby as a referee is negligible. Your whole little tizz here inspired by a solitary Irish referee (who's been in England for donkey's years) taking up an English ref's spot is laughable.

Even if there were a flood of non-English refs inside the RFU system at the top end (which there isn't) nationality simply doesn't matter for refs in the same way that it does for players. What's important is that we have the best referees overseeing the sport and ensuring the best games possible for players and spectators. If we were to have a situation where English refs were getting stuck behind non-English ones within the RFU the solution wouldn't be to overlook the best refs based on nationality, but to address why English candidates weren't up to scratch.

[Kawazaki]

How about you tell me why someone being something other than English would have any bearing in those areas.

There are just 5 slots available for ambitious referees in the RFU system to fill to be considered by World Rugby to get on the test rota. As a rough guess, how many English referees do you think have made it to test standard after being employed by the IRFU, or perhaps the SRU or WRU?

The peak of English rugby should be the peak for any high performing English player or referee just as it is for players and referees in all those other countries that don't employ English referees.

0 because the number of English within their borders participating in rugby as a referee is negligible. Your whole little tizz here inspired by a solitary Irish referee (who's been in England for donkey's years) taking up an English ref's spot is laughable.

Even if there were a flood of non-English refs inside the RFU system at the top end (which there isn't) nationality simply doesn't matter for refs in the same way that it does for players. What's important is that we have the best referees overseeing the sport and ensuring the best games possible for players and spectators. If we were to have a situation where English refs were getting stuck behind non-English ones within the RFU the solution wouldn't be to overlook the best refs based on nationality, but to address why English candidates weren't up to scratch.

The only person having a 'little tizz' is you. I'm merely commenting on an event that has actually happened, I don't need to imagine hypothetical scenarios like you are.

And good luck trying to attract and develop new referees at all levels of the sport in England if the RFU adopted your philosophy regards elite referee appointments. Clueless.

[JM2K6]

There are just 5 slots available for ambitious referees in the RFU system to fill to be considered by World Rugby to get on the test rota. As a rough guess, how many English referees do you think have made it to test standard after being employed by the IRFU, or perhaps the SRU or WRU?

The peak of English rugby should be the peak for any high performing English player or referee just as it is for players and referees in all those other countries that don't employ English referees.

So we should sack everyone who isn't currently the best English ref?

Kathy Newman is here.

Hi Kathy

You seem incapable of explaining what you mean. What is "the peak of English rugby" for a referee and how is it that JP didn't reach that?

[Margin__Walker]

This is a pretty niche argument, even for you Toga

[sockwithaticket]

You used a referee's redundancy to note Sale's playing squad is more South African than Saffercens were at their peak. That goes somewhat beyond merely commenting on an event.

Sport in general, but rugby particularly given its smaller participant base, struggles to attract people to reffing as it is. That there's the possibility of a 'foreigner' taking an elite spot is the least of the barriers. if anything this is another of those situations where we need non-English people to do fill roles the English don't want to, certainly at the lower levels. it they contribute to our system, preventing their ascent to the top/elite level ought to be anathematic.

[Margin__Walker]

Any thoughts on the games today? Think Wasps v Worcester is an interesting one as both have pretty much gone with full squad rotation.

Good for development, but it's the sort of thing that might throw up a few interesting results.

[Kawazaki]

This is a pretty niche argument, even for you Toga

Just current affairs.

I think it's fairly obvious why JPD was picked as the 1 of 6 to get made redundant.

Calling it as I see it. It's what I've always done.

[Kawazaki]

Any thoughts on the games today? Think Wasps v Worcester is an interesting one as both have pretty much gone with full squad rotation.

Good for development, but it's the sort of thing that might throw up a few interesting results.

Any match involving Worcester requires the default prediction.

[sockwithaticket]

Any thoughts on the games today Think Wasps v Worcester is an interesting one as both have pretty much gone with full squad rotation.

Good for development, but it's the sort of thing that might throw up a few interesting results.

It got buried at least a page ago now, but I'm a little worried about the step down in Wasps backrow. We have a reserve hooker playing openside, which isn't quite Thomas Young!

I understand the extent of the squad rotation. Worcester are probably our least competitive opponent in this tranche of condensed fixtures and I'm sure that a lot of guys are still in bits a mere 5 days after the first game in months.

it would suck to be turned over at home by one of the league's weaker teams and we don't have much of star quality on the bench to turn things around if it is going awry.

[sockwithaticket]

This is a pretty niche argument, even for you Toga

Just current affairs.

I think it's fairly obvious why JPD was picked as the 1 of 6 to get made redundant.

Calling it as I see it. It's what I've always done.

His seniorority and thus pay packet vs the likes of Ridley (young up and comer) or Foley (less senior than Doyle, Prem level only) would have been my first thought given the RFU's frantic cost-cutting.

[Margin__Walker]

This is a pretty niche argument, even for you Toga

Just current affairs.

I think it's fairly obvious why JPD was picked as the 1 of 6 to get made redundant.

Calling it as I see it. It's what I've always done.

I suspect it's because he was at the older end of the cohort (and not Wayne Barnes) and probably on a few quid more than some of the younger refs. But what do I know. It probably was to address the scourge of these foreigners coming over here and taking out pro ref jobs.

[Margin__Walker]

Any thoughts on the games today Think Wasps v Worcester is an interesting one as both have pretty much gone with full squad rotation.

Good for development, but it's the sort of thing that might throw up a few interesting results.

It got buried at least a page ago now, but I'm a little worried about the step down in Wasps backrow. We have a reserve hooker playing openside, which isn't quite Thomas Young!

I understand the extent of the squad rotation. Worcester are probably our least competitive opponent in this tranche of condensed fixtures and I'm sure that a lot of guys are still in bits a mere 5 days after the first game in months.

it would suck to be turned over at home by one of the league's weaker teams and we don't have much of star quality on the bench to turn things around if it is going awry.

It's definitely a risk that could backfire. Blackett will know the squad best though and I'm sure they've thought a fair bit about the schedule and put plans in place for rotation.

Expecting something less drastic from LI today, given they've had a week (perhaps 5 or 6 of the 15 changed), but who knows

[Kawazaki]

This is a pretty niche argument, even for you Toga

Just current affairs.

I think it's fairly obvious why JPD was picked as the 1 of 6 to get made redundant.

Calling it as I see it. It's what I've always done.

I suspect it's because he was at the older end of the cohort (and not Wayne Barnes) and probably on a few quid more than some of the younger refs. But what do I know. It probably was to address the scourge of these foreigners coming over here and taking out pro ref jobs.

He'll be fine. The IRU can give him a job to work in the Pro12 or whatever it's called.

[SaintK]

Any thoughts on the games today Think Wasps v Worcester is an interesting one as both have pretty much gone with full squad rotation.

Good for development, but it's the sort of thing that might throw up a few interesting results.

It got buried at least a page ago now, but I'm a little worried about the step down in Wasps backrow. We have a reserve hooker playing openside, which isn't quite Thomas Young!

I understand the extent of the squad rotation. Worcester are probably our least competitive opponent in this tranche of condensed fixtures and I'm sure that a lot of guys are still in bits a mere 5 days after the first game in months.

it would suck to be turned over at home by one of the league's weaker teams and we don't have much of star quality on the bench to turn things around if it is going awry.

It's definitely a risk that could backfire. Blackett will know the squad best though and I'm sure they've thought a fair bit about the schedule and put plans in place for rotation.

Expecting something less drastic from LI today, given they've had a week (perhaps 5 or 6 of the 15 changed), but who knows

Reckon Wasps will win by 15 even with a squad rotation like this one!

[sockwithaticket]

Any thoughts on the games today Think Wasps v Worcester is an interesting one as both have pretty much gone with full squad rotation.

Good for development, but it's the sort of thing that might throw up a few interesting results.

It got buried at least a page ago now, but I'm a little worried about the step down in Wasps backrow. We have a reserve hooker playing openside, which isn't quite Thomas Young!

I understand the extent of the squad rotation. Worcester are probably our least competitive opponent in this tranche of condensed fixtures and I'm sure that a lot of guys are still in bits a mere 5 days after the first game in months.

it would suck to be turned over at home by one of the league's weaker teams and we don't have much of star quality on the bench to turn things around if it is going awry.

It's definitely a risk that could backfire. Blackett will know the squad best though and I'm sure they've thought a fair bit about the schedule and put plans in place for rotation.

Expecting something less drastic from LI today, given they've had a week (perhaps 5 or 6 of the 15 changed), but who knows

He's definitely earned some trust after 4 bonus point wins on the trot.

[Kawazaki]

So we should sack everyone who isn't currently the best English ref?

Kathy Newman is here.

Hi Kathy

You seem incapable of explaining what you mean. What is "the peak of English rugby" for a referee and how is it that JP didn't reach that?

What level do you think is "the peak of English rugby"?

Clue: it's not London 3 South-West

[Margin__Walker]

LI v Saints teams for tomorrow. 10 changes to last weeks line up for LI. First start for Homer and Jack Cooke gets a prem start 2 years after his only previous sub appearance.




15 George Furbank
14 Ryan Olowofela
13 Matt Proctor
12 Rory Hutchinson
11 Tom Collins
10 James Grayson
9 Alex Mitchell
1 Francois van Wyk
2 Mike Haywood
3 Paul Hill
4 Alex Moon
5 Nick Isiekwe
6 Jamie Gibson
7 Lewis Ludlam (c)
8 Shaun Adendorff

Replacements:
16 Reece Marshall
17 Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi
18 Ehren Painter
19 Lewis Bean
20 Tui Uru
21 Tom James
22 Reuben Bird-Tulloch
23 Ahsee Tuala

[JM2K6]

Kathy Newman is here.

Hi Kathy

You seem incapable of explaining what you mean. What is "the peak of English rugby" for a referee and how is it that JP didn't reach that?

What level do you think is "the peak of English rugby"?

Clue: it's not London 3 South-West

Being an international referee representing the RFU?

[JM2K6]

Any thoughts on the games today Think Wasps v Worcester is an interesting one as both have pretty much gone with full squad rotation.

Good for development, but it's the sort of thing that might throw up a few interesting results.

It got buried at least a page ago now, but I'm a little worried about the step down in Wasps backrow. We have a reserve hooker playing openside, which isn't quite Thomas Young!

I understand the extent of the squad rotation. Worcester are probably our least competitive opponent in this tranche of condensed fixtures and I'm sure that a lot of guys are still in bits a mere 5 days after the first game in months.

it would suck to be turned over at home by one of the league's weaker teams and we don't have much of star quality on the bench to turn things around if it is going awry.

Talking of Wasps backrow... how do we think Jack Willis breaks into the England backrow? Injury? I dearly want to see what he can do on the international stage, but we already have Curry and Underhill.

I know this is a re-tread of an endless discussion but it never stops being relevant.

[Raggs]

Talking of Wasps backrow... how do we think Jack Willis breaks into the England backrow? Injury? I dearly want to see what he can do on the international stage, but we already have Curry and Underhill.

I know this is a re-tread of an endless discussion but it never stops being relevant.

He takes Ludlam/Shields/Wilson's bench spot. Then relies on injury.

[SaintK]

Any thoughts on the games today Think Wasps v Worcester is an interesting one as both have pretty much gone with full squad rotation.

Good for development, but it's the sort of thing that might throw up a few interesting results.

It got buried at least a page ago now, but I'm a little worried about the step down in Wasps backrow. We have a reserve hooker playing openside, which isn't quite Thomas Young!

I understand the extent of the squad rotation. Worcester are probably our least competitive opponent in this tranche of condensed fixtures and I'm sure that a lot of guys are still in bits a mere 5 days after the first game in months.

it would suck to be turned over at home by one of the league's weaker teams and we don't have much of star quality on the bench to turn things around if it is going awry.

Talking of Wasps backrow... how do we think Jack Willis breaks into the England backrow? Injury? I dearly want to see what he can do on the international stage, but we already have Curry and Underhill.

I know this is a re-tread of an endless discussion but it never stops being relevant.

With EJ's penchant for playing Curry at 8, how about Underhill at 7 and Willis at 6?

[sockwithaticket]

Any thoughts on the games today Think Wasps v Worcester is an interesting one as both have pretty much gone with full squad rotation.

Good for development, but it's the sort of thing that might throw up a few interesting results.

It got buried at least a page ago now, but I'm a little worried about the step down in Wasps backrow. We have a reserve hooker playing openside, which isn't quite Thomas Young!

I understand the extent of the squad rotation. Worcester are probably our least competitive opponent in this tranche of condensed fixtures and I'm sure that a lot of guys are still in bits a mere 5 days after the first game in months.

it would suck to be turned over at home by one of the league's weaker teams and we don't have much of star quality on the bench to turn things around if it is going awry.

Talking of Wasps backrow... how do we think Jack Willis breaks into the England backrow? Injury? I dearly want to see what he can do on the international stage, but we already have Curry and Underhill.

I know this is a re-tread of an endless discussion but it never stops being relevant.

With Kruis no longer being in the frame as a lock option Eddie might stop sticking Lawes at 6 which means 4 matchday back row slots instead of the 3 or occasionally two that there have been.

I haven't been particularly impressed by Billy for a while now and Tom Curry did far better at 8 than I had any right to expect. Willis can also do a job there and is a more than decent carrier. I'd be more than happy for any configuration of Curry, Earl, Willis and Underhill to be given a shot. However, I appreciate that Eddie's probably not dropping Billy if he's fit.

It remains to be seen how much of an impact asking refs to enforce the breakdown laws will have, but more scavengers could be the way to go anyhow.

Underhill's presence in the squad means an injury berth is likely to come up sooner or later, Wilson has also proven less durable the last couple of years than the rest of his career and he's not getting any younger.

I don't understand Ludlam being there at the moment, my perception is that his work rate doesn't significantly exceed that of any of the others and he doesn't seem to have any obvious point of difference. I'd like to think Eddie's ruthless enough to cut him unless he displays a serious uptick in form soon.

Haven't seen much of Hill as I don't often intentionally watch Worcester play. He seems very good, but I think Willis is better.

Willis' chances would probably improve massively if we all stop hyping him...

[Kawazaki]

Sean O'Brien out of the squad completely already?!

He makes Ben Te'o look like good value.

[Margin__Walker]

Sean O'Brien out of the squad completely already?!

He makes Ben Te'o look like good value.

There are player welfare guidelines to follow. Every player has to sit out of at least one match day squad.

Not heard about him being injured again and makes sense to manage his return to pro rugby properly after a year out.

[Raggs]

Hill is very tall, making him a potentially better lineout option. I know both Curry and Willis are seen as lineout options though.

[JM2K6]

Hill is a more classical 6 than our other options. Tall, heavy hitter, heavy carrier. Freakishly strong.

Have to agree that Billy has been letting us down at crucial times a bit too often. Not saying we should just bin him off but it's never a surprise when we play well without him. Also agree that Ludlam is an odd choice, he's just not that good and his bad hands and bad discipline tend to cost us.

The new breakdown does seem to be a case of - if you're a brilliant jackal you'll make hay, if not then you'd best be really good at rucking and counter rucking. Which is good.

[Stranger]

Tigers embracing squad rotation

Leicester Tigers (v Bath Rugby, Welford Road, Saturday 4.30pm)

15 Zack Henry

14 Harry Potter

13 George Worth (vc)

12 Guy Porter

11 Harry Simmons

10 Johnny McPhillips

9 Ben White (c)

1 Nephi Leatigaga

2 Jake Kerr

3 Joe Heyes

4 Tomás Lavanini

5 Blake Enever

6 George Martin

7 Luke Wallace (vc)

8 Thom Smith

Replacements

16 Charlie Clare

17 Ryan Bower

18 Dan Cole

19 Cameron Henderson

20 Jordan Coghlan

21 Jack Van Poortvliet

22 Tom Hardwick

23 Freddie Steward

[Kawazaki]

Hill is still a bit young. I know Curry and Underhill are/were younger when picked but Hill still has that stringy rangy look about him as though he needs to fill out some more, and besides, he'd fill a very different purpose to CurryHill who are virtually interchangeable. Earl and brother Ben are the natural replacements for CurryHill. Willis is the man though, he's arguably the best English backrower bar none at the moment. He just needs to break through the Eddie hubris where he refuses to pick the player everyone tells him is the best player simply because they are telling him he's the best player.

[JM2K6]

I don't think "CurryHill" works if you're also talking about a player called "Hill" in comparison. UnderCurry, perhaps.

[Raggs]

Willis has a big advantage with Eddie, since George Smith will no doubt put in a good word.

[Kawazaki]

I don't think "CurryHill" works if you're also talking about a player called "Hill" in comparison. UnderCurry, perhaps.

Understood

[Un Pilier]

That’s a pretty unrecognisable Tigers side for all but the most committed anorak.

[sockwithaticket]

Tuilagi getting a lot more ball already in the Exeter - Sale game.

He's also playing 12 with the more skilful Sam James outside him.