England in Australia

[ASMO]

It's okay lads. On the 5 live podcast this week Ugo is tipping England because of our depth in the front row and (*checks notes) Second row especially.

I assume he DOES know Charlie Ewells is on the plane right?

[Margin__Walker]

It's okay lads. On the 5 live podcast this week Ugo is tipping England because of our depth in the front row and (*checks notes) Second row especially.

I assume he DOES know Charlie Ewells is on the plane right?

Who knows mate. Either that or he knows something about Charlie that we all don't.

Feels a bit cruel to keeps banging on about Ewels, but he really is one of those players you look at and think 'how on earth has he got that many caps'

[JM2K6]

It's okay lads. On the 5 live podcast this week Ugo is tipping England because of our depth in the front row and (*checks notes) Second row especially.

I assume he DOES know Charlie Ewells is on the plane right?

Who knows mate. Either that or he knows something about Charlie that we all don't.

Feels a bit cruel to keeps banging on about Ewels, but he really is one of those players you look at and think 'how on earth has he got that many caps'

Yeah. You go back to the 2000s and some seriously average players picked up caps and I'd still argue that Tom Palmer or Louis Deacon or Nick Kennedy were as good as Ewels, and Borthwick/Grewcock/Shaw/Kay were streets ahead. In an era where we have Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, and a bunch of impactful club players it's amazing that Ewels is a banker selection.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah JM, the late 2000s were definitely the peak of the bang average player picking up caps trend, but that was driven by a genuine lack of options/talent.

I had Mouritz Botha in mind when writing that, but even he only picked up 10 caps.

[Hal Jordan]

Yeah JM, the late 2000s were definitely the peak of the bang average player picking up caps trend, but that was driven by a genuine lack of options/talent.

I had Mouritz Botha in mind when writing that, but even he only picked up 10 caps.

Now there's a name from the folder marked, "Forgotten that they existed".

[ASMO]

Yeah JM, the late 2000s were definitely the peak of the bang average player picking up caps trend, but that was driven by a genuine lack of options/talent.

I had Mouritz Botha in mind when writing that, but even he only picked up 10 caps.

Now there's a name from the folder marked, "Forgotten that they existed".

He belongs in the same folder as Lesley Vainakolo, Mark van Jizzburger, Shontayne Hape, i am sure there are a few more.

[JM2K6]

I had genuinely forgotten him

[Lobby]

Yeah JM, the late 2000s were definitely the peak of the bang average player picking up caps trend, but that was driven by a genuine lack of options/talent.

I had Mouritz Botha in mind when writing that, but even he only picked up 10 caps.

Now there's a name from the folder marked, "Forgotten that they existed".

He belongs in the same folder as Lesley Vainakolo, Mark van Jizzburger, Shontayne Hape, i am sure there are a few more.

Magnus Lund, Hendre Fourie, Barrie-Jon Mather, Steve Hanley?

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Now there's a name from the folder marked, "Forgotten that they existed".

He belongs in the same folder as Lesley Vainakolo, Mark van Jizzburger, Shontayne Hape, i am sure there are a few more.

Magnus Lund, Hendre Fourie, Barrie-Jon Mather, Steve Hanley?

Joel Tomkins FTW.

[sockwithaticket]

ASMO seems to have steered us down the deeply average foreign poaches to play for England path in which case Michael Lipman and Henry Paul definitely deserves a mention.

For mediocre English players you really could just throw a dart at any given team list between 2005 and 2010 really. Tim Payne, Paul Hodgson, Luke Narraway, Perry Freshwater, Tom Voyce... it goes on and on.

[petej]

He belongs in the same folder as Lesley Vainakolo, Mark van Jizzburger, Shontayne Hape, i am sure there are a few more.

Magnus Lund, Hendre Fourie, Barrie-Jon Mather, Steve Hanley?

Joel Tomkins FTW.

Phil Christophers, Henry Paul, Matt banahan, Barkley, Shaun perry. Post 03 till mid 10's were a golden age for England fans.

[ASMO]

There is the makings of the worlds most mediocre international team in that lot.

[petej]

Tried to put together a team.
15 van jizzberger
14 vainakolo/christophers
13 Paul/noon
12 Hape
11 balshaw/voyce
10 Goode/Barkley
9 Perry
8 narraway/Crane
7 Fourie
6 Worsley/Lund
5 Botha
4 deacon
3 Payne
2 mears
1 freshwater

[Kawazaki]

It's okay lads. On the 5 live podcast this week Ugo is tipping England because of our depth in the front row and (*checks notes) Second row especially.

He's a total fucking moron. Did you listen to the bit where he was talking to Ashton who then proceeded to talk about the post-final piss up, shit loads of drinking, Steward jumping in the Thames and wrecking the bus etc. I reckon Ashton was trying to get a bite out of the woke-wanker.

[Kawazaki]

Yeah JM, the late 2000s were definitely the peak of the bang average player picking up caps trend, but that was driven by a genuine lack of options/talent.

I had Mouritz Botha in mind when writing that, but even he only picked up 10 caps.

And Botha was playing for a team that won things.

[Kawazaki]

There is the makings of the worlds most mediocre international team in that lot.

I'd take Shaun Perry over Ben Youngs in a heartbeat.

[sockwithaticket]

Tried to put together a team.
15 van jizzberger
14 vainakolo/christophers
13 Paul/noon
12 Hape
11 balshaw/voyce
10 Goode/Barkley
9 Perry
8 narraway/Crane
7 Fourie
6 Worsley/Lund
5 Botha
4 deacon
3 Payne
2 mears
1 freshwater

No wonder we were so garbage.

Although I object to the idea that Worsley was as poor as everyone else in this team.

[JM2K6]

Perry was the worst scrum half to pick up more than a handful of caps for England in the pro era. I remember going to the pre-2007 RWC warmup game against Wales where we dunked them by about 60, and I came away from that game mostly angry about how absolutely dogshit Perry was. Perry was worse than Youngs in every single aspect.

[petej]

Tried to put together a team.
15 van jizzberger
14 vainakolo/christophers
13 Paul/noon
12 Hape
11 balshaw/voyce
10 Goode/Barkley
9 Perry
8 Crane/narraway
7 Fourie
6 Andy farrell/Lund
5 Botha
4 deacon
3 Payne
2 mears
1 freshwater

No wonder we were so garbage.

Although I object to the idea that Worsley was as poor as everyone else in this team.

Changed it. Looking at the 6n squads they weren't as bad as I recalled. We combined a drop in player quality post 03 with awful management.

[JM2K6]

Joel Tomkins was worse than Paul/Noon. Hape actually put in a bunch of decent performances for England at the time and was better than a few we tried, like Flood at 12 or Shane Geraghty (certainly more creative than post-RWC Tindall!), but my pick for 12 would be the hype machine Andy Farrell. Yikes.

Worsley was a decent 6, our Dan Lydiate really. We just kept trying to get him to do stuff he was no good at. Lund was an openside.

I think I'm right in saying that British Lion Tim Payne(!) twice received red cards for getting 2x yellow for shithouse scrummaging. He was a loosehead, mind, as was Freshwater. Stuart Turner would be a good shout on the tighthead. Or Paul Doran-Jones, the useless fuck. I believe he was equally out of his depth on both sides of the scrum.

Andy Titterall was a lot worse than Mears.

Van Gisbergen earned his callup, didn't do anything with it, and didn't hang around. I have no real issue with that. The hype around Olly Morgan from desperate Gloucester fans (see also: Andy Hazell / Charlie Sharples / PAUL DORAN JONES / Luke Narraway / Jamie Forrester) was just sad, with his USP being 'less of a fuckup than Balshaw'.

[Kawazaki]

Perry was the worst scrum half to pick up more than a handful of caps for England in the pro era. I remember going to the pre-2007 RWC warmup game against Wales where we dunked them by about 60, and I came away from that game mostly angry about how absolutely dogshit Perry was. Perry was worse than Youngs in every single aspect.

Youngs with 115 England caps in 2022 is worse than Perry with 14 caps on 2007. He really is that awful.

#stockholmsyndrome

[JM2K6]

Perry was the worst scrum half to pick up more than a handful of caps for England in the pro era. I remember going to the pre-2007 RWC warmup game against Wales where we dunked them by about 60, and I came away from that game mostly angry about how absolutely dogshit Perry was. Perry was worse than Youngs in every single aspect.

Youngs with 115 England caps in 2022 is worse than Perry with 14 caps on 2007. He really is that awful.

#stockholmsyndrome

I think you've forgotten how bad Perry was, honestly. Imagine Ben Youngs, but without the kicking range, a worse pass, and substantially slower to the ball. Oh, and he can't fucking tackle either. Youngs on his worst day is Perry on an average day - he did almost nothing well. And Youngs at his best is/was generations ahead of anything Perry could hope to achieve.

I remember BT or Sky (probably Sky?) doing some sort of scrum half passing masterclass and they got Dewi Morris to show some passing skills from the base, then got Perry to do it and Perry was significantly worse than the old pisshead. Really quite embarrassing.

[sockwithaticket]

Tried to put together a team.
15 van jizzberger
14 vainakolo/christophers
13 Paul/noon
12 Hape
11 balshaw/voyce
10 Goode/Barkley
9 Perry
8 Crane/narraway
7 Fourie
6 Andy farrell/Lund
5 Botha
4 deacon
3 Payne
2 mears
1 freshwater

No wonder we were so garbage.

Although I object to the idea that Worsley was as poor as everyone else in this team.

Changed it. Looking at the 6n squads they weren't as bad as I recalled. We combined a drop in player quality post 03 with awful management.

I think I'm right in saying that until the mid-point of Johnson's reign and ironing out a better EPS agreement, this was the era of weak summer touring parties where you were more likely to see some truly shite or baffling fringe selections.

[JM2K6]

Finally found a 6 worthy of the utterly forgettable mediocrity tag. Chris Jones.

[FalseBayFC]

Matt Stevens?

[Hal Jordan]

I was always surprised Fraser Waters never picked up more than the handful of caps he did. The guy wasn't world class, but he was a damn sight better than the alternatives for no little while.

[sockwithaticket]

Matt Stevens?

Matt Stevens looked world class next to the likes of Doran-Jones.

[JM2K6]

Matt Stevens?

He was actually good sometimes.

[SaintK]

Tried to put together a team.
15 van jizzberger
14 vainakolo/christophers
13 Paul/noon
12 Hape
11 balshaw/voyce
10 Goode/Barkley
9 Perry
8 narraway/Crane
7 Fourie
6 Worsley/Lund
5 Botha
4 deacon
3 Payne
2 mears
1 freshwater

A bit harsh on Worsley and Balshaw

[JM2K6]

Tried to put together a team.
15 van jizzberger
14 vainakolo/christophers
13 Paul/noon
12 Hape
11 balshaw/voyce
10 Goode/Barkley
9 Perry
8 narraway/Crane
7 Fourie
6 Worsley/Lund
5 Botha
4 deacon
3 Payne
2 mears
1 freshwater

A bit harsh on Worsley and Balshaw

Right. Paul Sackey was worse than Balshaw, who was a decent winger with serious pace and balance. Monye was probably worse than Balshaw but better than Sackey. Cueto Did Fine(tm). All of these pale in comparison with, say, Matt Banahan, or Topsy Ojo.

God, remember how shit Ayoola Erinle was?! There's another centre worth laughing at.

[JM2K6]

Dan Hipkiss.

I remember fervently arguing in favour of him because his ability to set up a midfield maul was a point of difference for England. That's how bad things had become.

Tom May.

David Paice.

Dan Scarborough.

Alex Brown.






Jesus wept

[Madness]

Before we all get super depressed by Eddies mad random selection generator, pick your 23 for Sat from the squad and not including May who has the -vid

Mako
George
Stuart
Itoje
Hill
Willis
Curry
Billy
Randall
Smith
Cokanasiga
Farrell
Marchant
Nowell
Steward

Genge, LCD, Schickerling, Lawes, Ludlam, Care (always better as sub than starting), Freeman, Arundell (get him capped)

[FalseBayFC]

Matt Stevens?

He was actually good sometimes.

Solidish. But after winning world u21 player of the year I had higher expectations of him.

[Margin__Walker]

Tried to put together a team.
15 van jizzberger
14 vainakolo/christophers
13 Paul/noon
12 Hape
11 balshaw/voyce
10 Goode/Barkley
9 Perry
8 narraway/Crane
7 Fourie
6 Worsley/Lund
5 Botha
4 deacon
3 Payne
2 mears
1 freshwater

A bit harsh on Worsley and Balshaw

Right. Paul Sackey was worse than Balshaw, who was a decent winger with serious pace and balance. Monye was probably worse than Balshaw but better than Sackey. Cueto Did Fine(tm). All of these pale in comparison with, say, Matt Banahan, or Topsy Ojo.

God, remember how shit Ayoola Erinle was?! There's another centre worth laughing at.

Meh, Topsy Ojo played two tests for England. Both away in New Zealand and scored a long range try in each.

They still talk about him down there in the same way they talk about Ben Clarke following his 1993 Lions heroics.

[JM2K6]

FORWARDS

Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Joe Heyes
Jonny Hill
Nick Isiekwe
Maro Itoje
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Ludlam
Bevan Rodd
Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Will Stuart
Sam Underhill
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 61 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 67 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 3 caps)

Genge, LCD, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, Billy. Subs: Mako, George, Heyes, Chessum, Willis

BACKS

Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped) *apprentice player
Danny Care (Harlequins, 84 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell
Tommy Freeman
George Furbank
Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped) *apprentice player
Joe Marchant
Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Harry Randall
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward

Care, Smith, Farrell, Marchant; Freeman, Nowell*, Steward. Subs: Randall, Arundell, Porter

* Our wing stocks for this tour are absolute shite

[JM2K6]

A bit harsh on Worsley and Balshaw

Right. Paul Sackey was worse than Balshaw, who was a decent winger with serious pace and balance. Monye was probably worse than Balshaw but better than Sackey. Cueto Did Fine(tm). All of these pale in comparison with, say, Matt Banahan, or Topsy Ojo.

God, remember how shit Ayoola Erinle was?! There's another centre worth laughing at.

Meh, Topsy Ojo played two tests for England. Both away in New Zealand and scored a long range try in each.

They still talk about him down there in the same way they talk about Ben Clarke following his 1993 Lions heroics.

Believe me, I remember. At least one of them came from some Danny Care madskillz edit: It was 2 tries in one game actually!

IIRC that was the tour the Kiwis also patronised the fuck out of us by telling us how good Steve "Steve" Borthwick was at ruck time. And tried to convince us to keep picking Luke Narraway.

[Madness]

FORWARDS

Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Joe Heyes
Jonny Hill
Nick Isiekwe
Maro Itoje
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Ludlam
Bevan Rodd
Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Will Stuart
Sam Underhill
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 61 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 67 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 3 caps)

Genge, LCD, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, Billy. Subs: Mako, George, Heyes, Chessum, Willis

BACKS

Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped) *apprentice player
Danny Care (Harlequins, 84 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell
Tommy Freeman
George Furbank
Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped) *apprentice player
Joe Marchant
Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Harry Randall
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward

Care, Smith, Farrell, Marchant; Freeman, Nowell*, Steward. Subs: Randall, Arundell, Porter

* Our wing stocks for this tour are absolute shite

Agreed with the wing stock on tour, May was the only real pace bar Arundell

You a fan of Lawes in the back row? Great player but always seems to unbalance the back row when we try it for England

[JM2K6]

FORWARDS

Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Joe Heyes
Jonny Hill
Nick Isiekwe
Maro Itoje
Courtney Lawes
Lewis Ludlam
Bevan Rodd
Patrick Schickerling (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Will Stuart
Sam Underhill
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 61 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 67 caps)
Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Willis (Wasps, 3 caps)

Genge, LCD, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Lawes, Curry, Billy. Subs: Mako, George, Heyes, Chessum, Willis

BACKS

Henry Arundell (London Irish, uncapped) *apprentice player
Danny Care (Harlequins, 84 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Owen Farrell
Tommy Freeman
George Furbank
Will Joseph (London Irish, uncapped) *apprentice player
Joe Marchant
Jonny May
Jack Nowell
Guy Porter (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Harry Randall
Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, uncapped)
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward

Care, Smith, Farrell, Marchant; Freeman, Nowell*, Steward. Subs: Randall, Arundell, Porter

* Our wing stocks for this tour are absolute shite

Agreed with the wing stock on tour, May was the only real pace bar Arundell

You a fan of Lawes in the back row? Great player but always seems to unbalance the back row when we try it for England

I think he's performed well there for England in recent years and he showed on the Lions tour he's a real force at 6. But the bigger problem is with Billy having to start we'd be left with a really mediocre back row at lineout time if you picked Billy/Curry and one of Willis or Underhill. You could pick Chessum instead and I wouldn't be against that - so Itoje and Lawes to start, Hill on the bench. But Chessum is a newbie and Lawes plays most of his rugby at 6 these days.

I rate Freeman, he has pace, he's just a bit of a newbie. It's silly that we've ditched some quality players like Malins, OHC, Radwan so soon.

[Mahoney]

It was the tour that Rob Andrew managed because Johnson wasn't ready to take it on, wasn't it? And had a huge hissy fit declaring that some people would never play for England again due to their performances.

As I recall Ojo seemed waaaay too happy about his tries in a desperate losing cause - gave the impression he was much more interested in his own success than the team's.

[JM2K6]

Oh Jesus you've just reminded me of the Rob Andrew Peformance Reviews