The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

He was the guy on the back of that maul and you can see where he's facing before contact, which is directly towards the tackler (and the tryline). Again, the video is right there. He gets knocked off balance by the tackle but gets to offload, which he was very well.

I have no idea why you're obsessed with arguing counter-factuals but whatever dude, this is pointless. Find a better example to defend Billy's carrying with.

[Kawazaki]

He was the guy on the back of that maul and you can see where he's facing before contact, which is directly towards the tackler (and the tryline). Again, the video is right there. He gets knocked off balance by the tackle but gets to offload, which he was very well.

I have no idea why you're obsessed with arguing counter-factuals but whatever dude, this is pointless. Find a better example to defend Billy's carrying with.

I'm just commenting on what I see. You were the one who stepped in to dismiss what he did as something any player would do. I only used this example because it was recent and relevant to the comment on his form now.

[SaintK]

'Very poor' is a bit harsh I think. He still attracts more defenders than just about any other forward in the league, and that alone can be enough to disupt patterns, spacing, line-speed etc even if he never gets the ball. He did very well for the first try, his running line got at least three Quins defenders to turn their hips in (including the winger) which made the try for Maitland very easy.

Maybe so, but he needs to do far more than just that. He really didn't look match fit at all
He certainly wouldn't be making my England backrow on his current showing

He needs games to get fit I think. Jack Willis and Tom Curry are the form flankers. Not sure any English 8s are really showing a great deal more than Billy yet though.

Curry is the man currently in possession of the 8 shirt for England aand I would see no reason to change that on the form shown over the first two games since restart.
Some eyecatching performances from Willis, Hills, Mercer, Hughes, Simmonds, Earls and Underhill in those matches
Billy will need to pull his finger out

[Kawazaki]

Maybe so, but he needs to do far more than just that. He really didn't look match fit at all
He certainly wouldn't be making my England backrow on his current showing

He needs games to get fit I think. Jack Willis and Tom Curry are the form flankers. Not sure any English 8s are really showing a great deal more than Billy yet though.

Curry is the man currently in possession of the 8 shirt for England aand I would see no reason to change that on the form shown over the first two games since restart.
Some eyecatching performances from Willis, Hills, Mercer, Hughes, Simmonds, Earls and Underhill in those matches
Billy will need to pull his finger out

I wouldn't see the point in keeping Curry at no.8 if he's playing for his club at 7. Just pick Simmons who is the same size but is playing as an 8.

All premature though I expect. Still a lot of rugby to go until the test window opens. I hope the irony won't be lost on Sarries haters that when the Lions tour comes around, the Saracens players will likely be the freshest and best conditioned in England to tour.

[ASMO]

Curry is a far better 7 than he is an 8, with him and Underhill running 6 and 7 you probably need a bit more beef at 8 as neither of them are hurtful ball runners.

[sockwithaticket]

Controversial perhaps, but I think the days of the 8 as a destructive ball carrier are largely behind us.

For a start there aren't that many guys in the world capable of doing the job in the current rugby landscape, it's mainly Polynesians and South Africans who are notably bigger and more powerful than their peers, none of whom are freely available to most national teams, especially now that residency eligibility is now 5 years. It's a freak of economics for their parents 20 odd years ago that means Billy and not-Toby are available for their respective nations.

That's not to say 8s can't continue to be carriers, just that they won't be that different from other players deemed to have a strong carrying game. Most of the English guys playing 8 in the Prem are hybrid back rows or flankers doing a job rather than what we'd classically consider to be an 8. I don't know enough about Pro14 or Top 14 teams to make a definitive statement, but my impression is it's a similar situation.Looking at the last round of Top14 fixtures to have been played back in February there were 2 Frenchmen in the 8 slot - Galletier and Erbani. Of whom I think only Galletier is a 'proper' one who plays there the majority of the time. At international level they've had the likes of Gourdon recently who more regularly plays 7 for his club.

So, yeah, I think the 8 being a bigger and significantly better carrier than anyone else is increasingly going to be an abnormal phenomenon and we'd all best get used to players we'd classically consider to be flankers playing in that slot.

[Kawazaki]

Nah, no.8 is a specialist role. The best/great no.8s stand out and you seldom ever consider them as part-timers in the role. Read, Parisse, Harinordoquy, Quinnell, Dallaglio, Shelford, Zinzan etc are special players. They're not just flankers doing some other stuff.

[Woddy]

8 is pretty specialised, though LBND started off on the flanks. Also, the main point made above was that few 8's are now destructive ball-carriers. Of your list, that's true of the more recent - Read and Parisse. Not to say that they can't carry, but that they are more distributing or all-round 8s. I'd stick Faletau in that bracket too.

[JM2K6]

I agree, but I think the argument is that those are all ex-players and what we're seeing now is a proliferation of jobbing flankers. Even NZ chose to follow Read with Savea, who's really a 7.

The question for us becomes "does it make more sense to play a flanker at 8 than a lesser player who's a specialist 8" if Billy's form tanks or he's unavailable. We've had some success with Wilson and Curry having a go there.

[Kawazaki]

8 is pretty specialised, though LBND started off on the flanks. Also, the main point made above was that few 8's are now destructive ball-carriers. Of your list, that's true of the more recent - Read and Parisse. Not to say that they can't carry, but that they are more distributing or all-round 8s. I'd stick Faletau in that bracket too.

LD was always a no.8 throughout junior rugby. I played against him in a county u21s match and he was the captain and no.8 then. Was also the England u21s no.8 I think.

[notfatcat]

We need an 8 who can run directly into an opposition player and offload before faceplanting in the mud.

[Kawazaki]

We need an 8 who can run directly into an opposition player and offload before faceplanting in the mud.

Dombrandt

[sockwithaticket]

I'm definitely not saying 8 isn't a position with some specialist skills required liek control at the base of the scrum, only that the notion of them being a destructive ball carrier is possibly a thing of the past as there simpy aren't many physical specimens around who can make that kind of impact on modern day players. As Woddy noted, we've already had quite a few long term 8s in top tier teams who don't fit the bill and outside Billy we've not really had anyone other than Morgan who could for a while(potentially Dombrandt now). I think the notion that the 8 should be a big destructive carrier has persisted with a lot of coaches, but they've found it difficult to secure one and so we're seeing, as JMK picked up on, a lot of guys who originally came through and have spent significant parts of their careers as flankers, being retrofitted into playing 8.

Just to pick on Wasps as I know them it's quite noticeable that we had Hughes as a big carrier and even then he was more effective a bit wider playing a rangier role where he was freer to shift the ball or run over a back. In his absence we'd typically use Carr who also played a lot at 7. Now we've got Vailanu to do the big heavy carrier thing, but more often than not we've been starting with Carr (until he left recently) Shields (spent his whole career switching between blindside and 8) or one of the Willis boys there. All decent carriers, but not the sort of idealised big one. Elsewhere we've had guys like Kvesic, Ross (until the other bigger Saffers arrived) and Harrison becoming their team's primary 8 having spent most or all of their careers on the flank.

I'd also suggest that perhaps some of those older players wouldn't be anywhere near as effective in the modern era as they were in their day.

[notfatcat]

We need an 8 who can run directly into an opposition player and offload before faceplanting in the mud.

Dombrandt

Good call, coach!

[Kawazaki]

The term 'destructive ball carrier' can be misleading. It implies the ball carrier has to run through defenders like a bowling ball through skittles. Some no.8s can do that, but, like the Vunipola example I used earlier, the best use subtle footwork to find weak shoulders and then link play to keep the ball alive. The term 'Effective Ball Carrier' is probably more apt.

[SaintK]

We need an 8 who can run directly into an opposition player and offload before faceplanting in the mud.

Dombrandt

Missed a sitter of a try on Saturday
Scragged Billy a few times at the base of the Sarries
Not utterly convinced with him yet though he definitley shows promise

[notfatcat]

Missed a sitter of a try on Saturday

From a damn poor pass!

[Margin__Walker]

I tend to agree. Unless there is an absolute gem of a traditional 8 (like Billy of a season or two ago), I'd go with a hybrid rather than pick the next best.

Curry made a pretty decent fist of it and playing him there might leave room for Willis to get involved. Despite Eddie hating having to bow to pressure to pick someone, he surely can't go much longer without being given a go.

[sockwithaticket]

Teams for tomorrow's game at the Ricoh





Of note is England U-18s fly half Charlie Atkinson on the bench rather than Sopoaga. Nothing mentioned about Soapy being injured even though Brookes is highlighted as being unavailable for that reason.

[Raggs]

Excited about tomorrow, Sale may have rotated, but it's still a strong squad from them, and they always seem to find an extra gear against Wasps. A win would be really handy.

[Kawazaki]

Wasps by >12

[fishfoodie]

Any word Gents, on who the other club being investigated for salary cap breaches is ?

Now that there are new sanctions in place, is it possible for two clubs to be relegated this year ?

[sockwithaticket]

It's all gone very quiet afaik. Almost like Fissler was just stirring, so unlike him.

It could also just be something really minor that's still undergoing investigation. Both Quins and Wasps have had small fines in the last few seasons for accidentally going over a tiny bit, a breach doesn't necessarily mean Sarries scale financial doping.

[fishfoodie]

It's all gone very quiet afaik. Almost like Fissler was just stirring, so unlike him.

It could also just be something really minor that's still undergoing investigation. Both Quins and Wasps have had small fines in the last few seasons for accidentally going over a tiny bit, a breach doesn't necessarily mean Sarries scale financial doping.

cheers

I suppose silly season, is still silly season; so anything to fill the column.

[sockwithaticket]

Watched the Prem highlights at lunch, can't believe the first Worcester try was allowed to stand particularly after the reason for the Wasps one being disallowed (player in an unrealistic position to effect one being prevented from having the opportunity to make a tackle).

Marcus Watson may not have made a try saving tackle, but he wasn't even given the chance to attempt one being blocked by both a Worcester player and the ref.

[JM2K6]

Don't forget there's matches on tonight everyone - starting at half five with Wasps v Sale and then 7:45 for Briz v Exeter. Looking forward to both.

[sockwithaticket]

I'll be too nervous to enjoy the first I'm sure, but the Bris - Exe game should be a cracker. Glad they're being shown sequentially, three of tomorrow's games are in the same time slot.

[Raggs]

Totally stolen from twitter, but absolutely spot on. Why are Bristol using System players for their subs, when they could have used "Spare bears".

[sockwithaticket]

Very good.

[sockwithaticket]

Tap and go from the hooker is becoming a bit of a vogue option for pens around the try line now.

[sockwithaticket]

Conditions rather limiting play at the moment. Shame.

[JM2K6]

Slightly amused to see the "double turnover" by Curry and Willis. Both massively illegal, of course - Curry came in after cleanouts had happened and Willis was about 3 seconds too late as well. Hmm...

Pretty mediocre game but happy enough with how the England hopefuls are playing.

[Raggs]

Slightly amused to see the "double turnover" by Curry and Willis. Both massively illegal, of course - Curry came in after cleanouts had happened and Willis was about 3 seconds too late as well. Hmm...

Pretty mediocre game but happy enough with how the England hopefuls are playing.

Willis' was flawless.... with my wasps glasses on.

Should I rewatch, I may agree, but seeing as Curry was definitely illegal to start, the penalty went the right way.

[sockwithaticket]

I enjoy Kay pointing out CMK's failings, makes me feel like I'm not being completely one eyed.

[sockwithaticket]

That's that second 'not bound' call that I just don't get. If an opposition player's arm is around your waist, how are you not bound to the maul?

[sockwithaticket]

Not sure how we turn this around. Discipline's all over the shop even allowing for some of the more, shall we say, marginal calls and game management is poor.

Edit - game over.

[Madness]

CMK does seem a bit of a technical ref, you can almost see his brain think about how he is getting assessed.......between him and the weather its killing the game. I dont like the inconsistency, he penalised Harrison for hands on the floor at the side of a maul on the line, and 2 phases later Harrison gets warned again for it, ignores CMK makes the tackle and nothing happens.

Not a fan of CMK, Tempest or Foley much prefer Barnsey, Luke Pearce or Dickson

[sockwithaticket]

Christ, I taught year 7s who looked older than Atkinson!

[Margin__Walker]

Yellow every day lads. Come on

[Margin__Walker]

At least one of the officials is switched on