Concussion Legal Action Against WR

[inactionman]

Andy Powell made a cock of himself last night. Not unexpected as he’s an arsehole, but still.

Dare I ask what he's done now?

Assume it's something insensitive around Ryan Jones' condition.

Maybe Andy Powell would be a bit more empathetic if he actually had a brain to injure.

Basically, yeah. On the day Ryan Jones announced he has early onset dementia, he tweets ‘we all knew the risks’. Then gets into a spat with Gareth Anscombe’s wife basically trying to intimidate her, and she owns him, saying she’s already got a toddler and a new born to deal with.

He seems on a mission to alienate ex-team mates. Alex Cuthbert didn't take kindly to the way Powell criticised him and has cut him off, and it appears Powell still hasn't learnt to control his mouth/thumbs on social media.

There are just far, far too many ex-pros suffering this, and you'd hope people have had time to at least note the problem - how this has escaped Powell's grasp is beyond me.

[Biffer]

Some vague attempt and justification / apology today but it comes across as very much ‘it’s all of you that’s the problem, not me, I’m a great guy’.

[Line6 HXFX]

I don't think I am better than you fuckers, I just think I am right, and you lot cannot stop watching it and supporting it.
It is like an addiction.
You got people supporting pitbull fighting feeling the same things.

The pretty lights, the drama the politics the whole shabang.
It's adfictive.
You lot don't see rugby as a product that you buy, like toilet paper, or toothpaste,because it is all wrapped up in a National flag, and choirs, and history and culture...but the fact is, at the end of the day it is just someone's earner..
... not yours or mine someone else's, that we support by watching.
All of this was fine until Ryan Jones, Alex Popham, Julian White etc
Now it's not.
Now it's fucked.
Completely fucked.
No justification for the sport.
I can play guitar whilst wearing my underpants with a vr headset on my head and have the time of my fucking life.
No one gets senile dementia.
I can walk to abergavenny, 11 miles.lin 42 degree heat, whilst my Mrs phones me constantly worried..and then argue with you pricks from abergavenny weatherspoons.
No one gets senile dementia.
You can enjoy a lot of stuff in this world without people getting that fucking disease.

My mum had it and I to sit with her for 14 hours a day to stop peeling her skin off.
Rugby isn't fucking worth it.

[Slick]

Some vague attempt and justification / apology today but it comes across as very much ‘it’s all of you that’s the problem, not me, I’m a great guy’.

Just seen that, he actually asks her outside twice

[Torquemada 1420]

I don't think I am better than you fuckers, I just think I am right, and you lot cannot stop watching it and supporting it.
It is like an addiction.
You got people supporting pitbull fighting feeling the same things.

The pretty lights, the drama the politics the whole shabang.
It's adfictive.
You lot don't see rugby as a product that you buy, like toilet paper, or toothpaste,because it is all wrapped up in a National flag, and choirs, and history and culture...but the fact at the end of the day it is just someone's earner..
... not your or mine someone else's, that we support by watching.
All of this was fine until Ryan Jones, Alex Popham, Julian White etc
Now it's not.
Now it's fucked.
Completely fucked.
No justification for the sport.
I can play guitar whilst wearing my underpants with a vr headset on my head and have the time of my fucking life.
No one gets senile dementia.
I can walk to abergavenny, 11 miles.lin 42 degree heat, whilst my Mrs phones me constantly worried..and then argue with you pricks from abergavenny weatherspoons.
No one gets senile dementia.
You can enjoy a lot of stuff in this world without people getting that fucking disease.

My mum had it and I to sit with her for 14 hours a day to stop peeling her skin off.
Rugby isn't fucking worth it.

I sympathise with your position. My father has vascular dementia and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone and that includes the rest of us running around, picking up the pieces: calls in the middle of the night, the police etc etc

It's your right as it is and individual's or any person who is responsible for another (e.g. parents) to vote with feet and say, "I'm not doing this. In any shape or form". I just don't think that's going to make the problem go away. At least not fast enough.

And I'm maybe closer to you than you might imagine. I used to have rows with friends about pro-boxing. There would be the inevitable strawman arguments advanced along the lines of "But F1 is dangerous and nobody wants that banned". The obvious riposte being that "F1 drivers are NOT going out to deliberately maim or kill their opponents" and that such maiming isn't the primary attraction to viewers. It isn't any objective of the sport, let alone the prime one.Sure, some like a good crash but that's not why the majority go/watch. PS it's why I enjoyed amateur and lightweight pro boxing: the skill was the entertainment and not the hope 2 giant c**ts might provide a death spectacle.

But....... that's kinda where we've got to with rugby. Everyone is commercial and success driven (may be indistinguishable now) and has moved the game towards 30 giants smashing each other at the highest speeds possible. I've repeatedly warned of the chances of paralysis or even death from exoceting into rucks. We need to look to switch the balance back so you don't get the biggest rewards for trying to run into people rather than around them.

[Wilson's Toffee]

Where does the player draw the line ? If he is good at rugby, and with the "right" mindset, that is what he will do. And a willing public will bay him onward, while the control bodies and stadium/team owners profit. Just like pro boxing. Or gladiators in Rome.. Or mercenaries in Ukraine.

Men are silly creatures, we often abuse ourselves for strange motivations...

[Torquemada 1420]

Where does the player draw the line ? If he is good at rugby, and with the "right" mindset, that is what he will do. And a willing public will bay him onward, while the control bodies and stadium/team owners profit. Just like pro boxing. Or gladiators in Rome.. Or mercenaries in Ukraine.

Men are silly creatures, we often abuse ourselves for strange motivations...

Yeah. I'm actually a bit uncomfortable with the sufferers blaming the game now. Time will tell (or the courts will) whether rugby authorities could reasonably have expected to have know of these consequences and, if so, how far back.

[Line6 HXFX]

Ol, iol..
Awesome..its so fucking great, when the deeply narcissistic, creepy sociopaths and barely fucking sane barking dogs are dragged into, to "debate" with their never ending acidic vulgarities,

Hey tgats when you know its got desperately fucked.

Isn't the english language cruel in the hands of the depraved?
Boring..certainly.. but cruel.

BTW, I'm right.
This sport is fucked.

It is litterally from the 19th century.
There are no answers, players will kill you to get a "inch,second, milimeter" of advantage.
Cheat, lie disgrace themselves for a win.
How can you change that?
Ps I'm now on the Thatchers..

[GogLais]

Where does the player draw the line ? If he is good at rugby, and with the "right" mindset, that is what he will do. And a willing public will bay him onward, while the control bodies and stadium/team owners profit. Just like pro boxing. Or gladiators in Rome.. Or mercenaries in Ukraine.

Men are silly creatures, we often abuse ourselves for strange motivations...

Yeah. I'm actually a bit uncomfortable with the sufferers blaming the game now. Time will tell (or the courts will) whether rugby authorities could reasonably have expected to have know of these consequences and, if so, how far back.

It isn’t just a game any more, it’s paid employment.

[sockwithaticket]

Where does the player draw the line ? If he is good at rugby, and with the "right" mindset, that is what he will do. And a willing public will bay him onward, while the control bodies and stadium/team owners profit. Just like pro boxing. Or gladiators in Rome.. Or mercenaries in Ukraine.

Men are silly creatures, we often abuse ourselves for strange motivations...

Yeah. I'm actually a bit uncomfortable with the sufferers blaming the game now. Time will tell (or the courts will) whether rugby authorities could reasonably have expected to have know of these consequences and, if so, how far back.

On the face of it, those like Thompson, who were among the early cadre of professionals, might find their case tough to bring.

I suspect that i anything takes down rugby it'll be cases of players in the last decade or so where the information was definitely more widely known and available to be sought for those authorities that cared to do so yet sufficient care not taken with existing players nor the risks adequately explained to those becoming professionals.

[GogLais]

Something I’ve had a bee on my bonnet about for a while and I’ve delved a bit more into it. It seems the HSE has consciously left it to the sports authorities to manage this. However, there’s a Digital Sports Blahdiblah Committee report of 2021(?) expressing surprise that sport has been left “to mark its own homework”.

[Biffer]

Where does the player draw the line ? If he is good at rugby, and with the "right" mindset, that is what he will do. And a willing public will bay him onward, while the control bodies and stadium/team owners profit. Just like pro boxing. Or gladiators in Rome.. Or mercenaries in Ukraine.

Men are silly creatures, we often abuse ourselves for strange motivations...

Yeah. I'm actually a bit uncomfortable with the sufferers blaming the game now. Time will tell (or the courts will) whether rugby authorities could reasonably have expected to have know of these consequences and, if so, how far back.

On the face of it, those like Thompson, who were among the early cadre of professionals, might find their case tough to bring.

I suspect that i anything takes down rugby it'll be cases of players in the last decade or so where the information was definitely more widely known and available to be sought for those authorities that cared to do so yet sufficient care not taken with existing players nor the risks adequately explained to those becoming professionals.

Strong argument for a bit more than that. The NFL settlement was in 2013, which suggests there was strong enough evidence that they would lose in court by that time. So I'd say from the mid 00s

[Torquemada 1420]

Ed Slater now
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62255266



Big discussion topic on BBC Breakfast. The authorities need to act a lot faster than they are to amend the laws. Already hearing parents who have stopped their children playing even before this latest bad news.

[MungoMan]

My mum had it and I to sit with her for 14 hours a day to stop peeling her skin off.
Rugby isn't fucking worth it.

I'm betting she was an insufferably yappy & moany No.9. Doubtless a goodly proportion of the blows to the head she suffered were from team-mates.

[Tichtheid]

Ed Slater now
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62255266



Big discussion topic on BBC Breakfast. The authorities need to act a lot faster than they are to amend the laws. Already hearing parents who have stopped their children playing even before this latest bad news.

Statement from My Name'5 Doddie Foundation

Doddie and everyone at My Name'5 Doddie Foundation are very sorry to hear that Gloucester Rugby's Ed Slater has been diagnosed with motor neuron disease (MND). We send our best wishes to Ed and his family and will support them in any way we can......

....We recognise the increased attention surrounding potential links between head injury and neurological disease, but there is currently not enough definitive research on which to draw conclusions about potential links with motor neuron disease (MND).

Whilst the evidence around a link between head trauma and dementia seems to be gaining momentum, we cannot imply the same for MND; these diseases have different causes and underlying factors.

MND is a complex disease and, although we now have a much greater understanding of the genetics involved, the link between genes, environmental and lifestyle factors is not well understood. Further research is critical to unravelling these details. One aspect that is being explored further is the link between athleticism and MND, as indications suggest that strenuous physical activity could potentially play a role in the development of some forms of MND where the individual carries a pattern of risk genes for MND, although this is unlikely to be the only contributing factor.

https://www.myname5doddie.co.uk/whats-o ... -statement


It is a charity I support, there is progress being made in the research they are helping to fund.

[Torquemada 1420]

Ed Slater now
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62255266



Big discussion topic on BBC Breakfast. The authorities need to act a lot faster than they are to amend the laws. Already hearing parents who have stopped their children playing even before this latest bad news.

Statement from My Name'5 Doddie Foundation

Doddie and everyone at My Name'5 Doddie Foundation are very sorry to hear that Gloucester Rugby's Ed Slater has been diagnosed with motor neuron disease (MND). We send our best wishes to Ed and his family and will support them in any way we can......

....We recognise the increased attention surrounding potential links between head injury and neurological disease, but there is currently not enough definitive research on which to draw conclusions about potential links with motor neuron disease (MND).

Whilst the evidence around a link between head trauma and dementia seems to be gaining momentum, we cannot imply the same for MND; these diseases have different causes and underlying factors.

MND is a complex disease and, although we now have a much greater understanding of the genetics involved, the link between genes, environmental and lifestyle factors is not well understood. Further research is critical to unravelling these details. One aspect that is being explored further is the link between athleticism and MND, as indications suggest that strenuous physical activity could potentially play a role in the development of some forms of MND where the individual carries a pattern of risk genes for MND, although this is unlikely to be the only contributing factor.

https://www.myname5doddie.co.uk/whats-o ... -statement


It is a charity I support, there is progress being made in the research they are helping to fund.

Yup. The expert on this am was at pains to point out no proof of causality but I don't think that's the point
1) Perception is making its mark felt among parents and even fans of the game.
2) I think everyone would think that reasonable precautions should be taken: for me that means some changes in how we want the game to be played.
3) And that would be for everyone's benefit because, frankly, I'm bored watching a 15 man version of league where all the players simply seek to crash into one another.

[fishfoodie]

Something I’ve had a bee on my bonnet about for a while and I’ve delved a bit more into it. It seems the HSE has consciously left it to the sports authorities to manage this. However, there’s a Digital Sports Blahdiblah Committee report of 2021(?) expressing surprise that sport has been left “to mark its own homework”.

I can't off hand remember the name of the Chair of this committee, but they did a bloody good job pulling apart the British Cycling/Sky lies, & collusion, & mysterious testosterone delivery, & jiffy bags dispatched to the Tour etc.

If the RFU don't want to be giving evidence to them under oath,, they'd be well advised to pay attention !

[sefton]

Some who know me know I played at a decent level around the transition to professionalism. What I remember is within a few years the size of players and the corresponding collisions went through the roof, I was an average sized back row when I started but when I retired and went down a number of levels I was small. It was obvious to me that head injuries were going to become an issue, those with a responsibility for player safety were either must have been aware and chose not to investigate further in case it stopped them milking the game.

[Enzedder]

Solution Seft0n?. Lowering tackles is going to transfer the danger to the defenders I feel.

Speed the game up, and reduce the subs? Make the big boys a liability and the game could be more fun to play and watch

[MungoMan]

Solution Seft0n?. Lowering tackles is going to transfer the danger to the defenders I feel.

Speed the game up, and reduce the subs? Make the big boys a liability and the game could be more fun to play and watch

Speeding the game up sufficiently could increase the aerobic load on players just as well as cutting back on replacements. The question is, how to do it without fucking up the game.

Times when many players are just standing around could certainly be pruned.

Minimising scrum resets and requiring quick and orderly packing every time would save some. Front rows engage first but with no power, then the rest following. Power switches on when the ball is thrown into the midline of the tunnel.

Cleaning up the post tackle would save more, I suspect. Too much buried ball, too many penalties complete with arguing, lectures etc.

If players just about had to show a letter from their mum explaining why they are on the ground when neither a tackler or tacklee, that would be of great use.

[Slick]

Solution Seft0n?. Lowering tackles is going to transfer the danger to the defenders I feel.

Speed the game up, and reduce the subs? Make the big boys a liability and the game could be more fun to play and watch

Speeding the game up sufficiently could increase the aerobic load on players just as well as cutting back on replacements. The question is, how to do it without fucking up the game.

Times when many players are just standing around could certainly be pruned.

Minimising scrum resets and requiring quick and orderly packing every time would save some. Front rows engage first but with no power, then the rest following. Power switches on when the ball is thrown into the midline of the tunnel.

Cleaning up the post tackle would save more, I suspect. Too much buried ball, too many penalties complete with arguing, lectures etc.

If players just about had to show a letter from their mum explaining why they are on the ground when neither a tackler or tacklee, that would be of great use.

You only have to look back 15-20 years to see rugby was a much, much faster game with far less huge guys. If there is a will I can’t see how it couldn’t be fairy rapidly reversed. Most of the laws are still the same, just interpreted differently and different emphasis

[GogLais]

I’d take a chance on my team of big boys smashing up the opponent’s smaller boys in the first 60 minutes, winning lots of scrum and breakdown penalties and hanging on to win.

[Slick]

I’d take a chance on my team of big boys smashing up the opponent’s smaller boys in the first 60 minutes, winning lots of scrum and breakdown penalties and hanging on to win.

Knew you were English

[GogLais]

I’d take a chance on my team of big boys smashing up the opponent’s smaller boys in the first 60 minutes, winning lots of scrum and breakdown penalties and hanging on to win.

Knew you were English

I may not have thought this through properly.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

You only have to look back 15-20 years to see rugby was a much, much faster game with far less huge guys. If there is a will I can’t see how it couldn’t be fairy rapidly reversed. Most of the laws are still the same, just interpreted differently and different emphasis

Was it a faster game? Likely there was more space afforded by the typical defence, but I'd be surprised if the actual pace of the game, the amount of running and the amount of high intensity running has dropped, rather you'd think it will have increased

[Biffer]

You only have to look back 15-20 years to see rugby was a much, much faster game with far less huge guys. If there is a will I can’t see how it couldn’t be fairy rapidly reversed. Most of the laws are still the same, just interpreted differently and different emphasis

Was it a faster game? Likely there was more space afforded by the typical defence, but I'd be surprised if the actual pace of the game, the amount of running and the amount of high intensity running has dropped, rather you'd think it will have increased

There’s more ball in play time now than there used to be.

[Niegs]

Who among us played in a French league where (iirc) tackles below nips only and a ban on double tackles was tested? It'd be interesting to know if there were fewer head clashes. Laurent?

[Torquemada 1420]

Solution Seft0n?. Lowering tackles is going to transfer the danger to the defenders I feel.

Speed the game up, and reduce the subs? Make the big boys a liability and the game could be more fun to play and watch

Start with one of my pet hates: subs.

No more subs except for injury. Make lard arses like Atonio play 80 mins and then spaces will open up after 50. Any player subbed for injury has to have an immediate, enforced 2 game absence for recovery. That'll put an end to the majority of faking.

[Tichtheid]

You only have to look back 15-20 years to see rugby was a much, much faster game with far less huge guys. If there is a will I can’t see how it couldn’t be fairy rapidly reversed. Most of the laws are still the same, just interpreted differently and different emphasis

Was it a faster game? Likely there was more space afforded by the typical defence, but I'd be surprised if the actual pace of the game, the amount of running and the amount of high intensity running has dropped, rather you'd think it will have increased

There’s more ball in play time now than there used to be.

Sky showed the Bledisloe Cup game from 2000 earlier, the one that finished 39-35 to New Zealand.
Jonah, Mehrtens, Umaga, Cullen, Larkham, Gregan, Big Jim Williams, Nobody et al.

The game was quick but not quicker than today's matches, there was certainly less stop start, but the handling skills weren't even close to the current iteration of the sport.
The scrums were set and done very quickly, even if they were messy, in fact the whole game looked more messy.

The defences were poor. The players were not as bulky/massive as they are now, but they were obviously not as fit either

I'd even fancy the current Scotland team against those two sides.

[Blackmac]

Some who know me know I played at a decent level around the transition to professionalism. What I remember is within a few years the size of players and the corresponding collisions went through the roof, I was an average sized back row when I started but when I retired and went down a number of levels I was small. It was obvious to me that head injuries were going to become an issue, those with a responsibility for player safety were either must have been aware and chose not to investigate further in case it stopped them milking the game.

It's not just the size though, it's also the sheer strength and power. Much the same as you, I played at a decent level around that time and hoped to move up even further, but I broke my back and that was that. If I look at old photos I am bloody huge by the standards of the day, 6'4" and 17.5 stone, a small, mobile lock or big no.8, but it's all natural size and weight and I was quite lean because we were just big fit lads not massive gym monkeys the way they are now. A pro player of similar height and weight would destroy me.

As I've said before, rugby is just not meant to be played by professional athletes

[GogLais]

Some who know me know I played at a decent level around the transition to professionalism. What I remember is within a few years the size of players and the corresponding collisions went through the roof, I was an average sized back row when I started but when I retired and went down a number of levels I was small. It was obvious to me that head injuries were going to become an issue, those with a responsibility for player safety were either must have been aware and chose not to investigate further in case it stopped them milking the game.

As I've said before, rugby is just not meant to be played by professional athletes

I’m afraid that’s it really. I suspect that tinkering around with tackle heights and the breakdown will only have a marginal effect.

To go off at a tangent - American Football had a concussion problem. Have they changed how the game is played? I don’t see much of it but it looks pretty well the same.

[GogLais]

Solution Seft0n?. Lowering tackles is going to transfer the danger to the defenders I feel.

Speed the game up, and reduce the subs? Make the big boys a liability and the game could be more fun to play and watch

Start with one of my pet hates: subs.

No more subs except for injury. Make lard arses like Atonio play 80 mins and then spaces will open up after 50. Any player subbed for injury has to have an immediate, enforced 2 game absence for recovery. That'll put an end to the majority of faking.

Even now Atonio is a bit of a freak. I think you’d still end up with 17/18 stone props. And what happens if a team starts with say a 15/16 stone mobile prop and they’re faced by an Atonio?

[Biffer]

In the NFL now, head hits now lead to ejections, fines and suspensions. They also changed rules relating to blindside blocks and kickoffs. And they put big efforts into equipment developments to help prevent concussions.

Their modern concussion protocol has led to players who are concussed being sidelined for an average of 19 days.

They have also paid nearly $1 billion to former players.

[GogLais]

In the NFL now, head hits now lead to ejections, fines and suspensions. They also changed rules relating to blindside blocks and kickoffs. And they put big efforts into equipment developments to help prevent concussions.

Ok, ta. I guess not much else they could without ending up with a different sport.

[Biffer]

In the NFL now, head hits now lead to ejections, fines and suspensions. They also changed rules relating to blindside blocks and kickoffs. And they put big efforts into equipment developments to help prevent concussions.

Ok, ta. I guess not much else they could without ending up with a different sport.

Just added a couple of things there, sorry! They’ve reduced concussions substantially as a result of the changes.

[Margin__Walker]

I think volume is part of the issue too. NFL season is what? 15 games and a lot of players on the roster barely get any pitch time? They also now strictly limit the amount of contact training you are able to do.

Modern rugby has a real problem. Players can easily play more than 30 games and even removing concussions, take a ton of sub concussive hits during standard ruck and tackle situations. In addition to contact training. Commercially there will likely be resistance, but I think a good first step is to have players playing less rugby and mandate the amount of contact training clubs are able to run.

[Slick]

Was it a faster game? Likely there was more space afforded by the typical defence, but I'd be surprised if the actual pace of the game, the amount of running and the amount of high intensity running has dropped, rather you'd think it will have increased

There’s more ball in play time now than there used to be.

Sky showed the Bledisloe Cup game from 2000 earlier, the one that finished 39-35 to New Zealand.
Jonah, Mehrtens, Umaga, Cullen, Larkham, Gregan, Big Jim Williams, Nobody et al.

The game was quick but not quicker than today's matches, there was certainly less stop start, but the handling skills weren't even close to the current iteration of the sport.
The scrums were set and done very quickly, even if they were messy, in fact the whole game looked more messy.

The defences were poor. The players were not as bulky/massive as they are now, but they were obviously not as fit either

I'd even fancy the current Scotland team against those two sides.

Less stop/start is probably what I meant rather than faster. No 3 minutes for a scrum or huddled debates before a line out etc

[Biffer]

I think volume is part of the issue too. NFL season is what? 15 games and a lot of players on the roster barely get any pitch time? They also now strictly limit the amount of contact training you are able to do.

Modern rugby has a real problem. Players can easily play more than 30 games and even removing concussions, take a ton of sub concussive hits during standard ruck and tackle situations. In addition to contact training. Commercially there will likely be resistance, but I think a good first step is to have players playing less rugby and mandate the amount of contact training clubs are able to run.

17 games plus playoffs now. So a maximum of 20.

[Torquemada 1420]

Solution Seft0n?. Lowering tackles is going to transfer the danger to the defenders I feel.

Speed the game up, and reduce the subs? Make the big boys a liability and the game could be more fun to play and watch

Start with one of my pet hates: subs.

No more subs except for injury. Make lard arses like Atonio play 80 mins and then spaces will open up after 50. Any player subbed for injury has to have an immediate, enforced 2 game absence for recovery. That'll put an end to the majority of faking.

Even now Atonio is a bit of a freak. I think you’d still end up with 17/18 stone props. And what happens if a team starts with say a 15/16 stone mobile prop and they’re faced by an Atonio?

Isn't it meant to be a game "for all sizes"? Or are we done with that? Otherwise, you pay your money and make your choices.

[GogLais]

Start with one of my pet hates: subs.

No more subs except for injury. Make lard arses like Atonio play 80 mins and then spaces will open up after 50. Any player subbed for injury has to have an immediate, enforced 2 game absence for recovery. That'll put an end to the majority of faking.

Even now Atonio is a bit of a freak. I think you’d still end up with 17/18 stone props. And what happens if a team starts with say a 15/16 stone mobile prop and they’re faced by an Atonio?

Isn't it meant to be a game "for all sizes"? Or are we done with that? Otherwise, you pay your money and make your choices.

Well the suggestion to do away with “lard arses” and speed up the game leads to that conclusion.