The Official English Rugby Thread

[ASMO]

Rumour has it Freddie Steward is off from tiggers, contract negotiations stalled, that would be a big loss from them, Bristol lurking for him to replace Charley P

[JM2K6]

Rumour has it Freddie Steward is off from tiggers, contract negotiations stalled, that would be a big loss from them, Bristol lurking for him to replace Charley P

Very strange time to be doing contract negotiations

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Interview with Eddie Jones


https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/e ... ls-1778827

He's not wrong, or certainly not wrong in large part, but it's a very negative way to deliver the message and there's nothing practical there to move the issue forwards. And he's doing it 7 years into his 8 year stint when it's obviously been an issue from decades back.

Also of interest was his praise for Zach Mercer, that Mercer was willing to get off his arse and go advance his career outside the norms and easier path available to him. Whether that's a late shout he should be allowed to pick whoever he wants, again 7 years into his stint, or whether (and arguably more worryingly) it comes on the back of feedback from England players they're not getting the club contracts they want, especially those on the margins of the EPS who have clubs hesitant to hand over cash when they might be missing but the player isn't certain of England pay benefits he's not exactly being clear on

[JM2K6]

Interview with Eddie Jones


https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/e ... ls-1778827

He's not wrong, or certainly not wrong in large part, but it's a very negative way to deliver the message and there's nothing practical there to move the issue forwards. And he's doing it 7 years into his 8 year stint when it's obviously been an issue from decades back.

Also of interest was his praise for Zach Mercer, that Mercer was willing to get off his arse and go advance his career outside the norms and easier path available to him. Whether that's a late shout he should be allowed to pick whoever he wants, again 7 years into his stint, or whether (and arguably more worryingly) it comes on the back of feedback from England players they're not getting the club contracts they want, especially those on the margins of the EPS who have clubs hesitant to hand over cash when they might be missing but the player isn't certain of England pay benefits he's not exactly being clear on

That's the same Mercer that Eddie looked at for five minutes then binned off regardless of sustained form

[Kawazaki]

Eddie Jones's comments about the public schools is also bullshit and just a remnant of chippy shortcomings from his own upbringing. I'd certainly like more rugby played in the state school system and perhaps better pathways via the old Colts teams in junior clubs but I wouldn't destroy the quality of player that comes through the independent schools sector. For a start, what's the point of doing that? It's not a zero-sum whereby players from fee-paying schools are denying a boy from an East London council estate.

It's just more rhetoric from Jones that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Just fuck off maaate.

[fishfoodie]

Eddie Jones's comments about the public schools is also bullshit and just a remnant of chippy shortcomings from his own upbringing. I'd certainly like more rugby played in the state school system and perhaps better pathways via the old Colts teams in junior clubs but I wouldn't destroy the quality of player that comes through the independent schools sector. For a start, what's the point of doing that? It's not a zero-sum whereby players from fee-paying schools are denying a boy from an East London council estate.

It's just more rhetoric from Jones that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Just fuck off maaate.

If he wanted to have a pop at someone, for the lack of kids playing touch rugby in the parks; he'd have been better off targeting the RFU for hiding it away on Pay TV for decades !!

Soccer can get away with it, because it has complete market penetration, as the recent success of the Lionesses shows; but kids emulate what they see !!!

I've no doubt that the surge in interest in Irish Rugby wouldn't have happened if the early European, & Celtic league seasons weren't on FTA. I remember as a kid in Dublin, watching Beefies heroics on the Beeb with my brothers; & within days, my brother had fashioned a bat, & a set of stumps, & we were out on the patch of grass in the estate with the neighbors kids smashing a cricket ball around. Not a common sight in the 70s in Ireland, but it was the start of my interest in cricket.

[Margin__Walker]

Blaming the reliance on private schools for under performance is such a cop out. Plenty are in the same boat on that front and a country like Ireland is performing incredibly well despite being arguably more reliant on them than we are. It's also incredibly simplistic to suggest that private schools don't produce resilient characters.

As above rugby will always be fighting a battle to get noticed in such a football saturated market and state school kids will always face a bit of an uphill battle. That said on a wider point, I think English rugby doesn't actually do a bad job to provide a pathway to kids from state schools into the pro game. Whilst it does often require a sacrifice in relocation, plenty come through the ACE system into senior academies which provides a comparable day to day level of coaching to what they would get in the private sector. Just looking at the LI senior academy at the moment, 9 of the 16 players who came through the English system came from state schools.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Eddie Jones's comments about the public schools is also bullshit and just a remnant of chippy shortcomings from his own upbringing. I'd certainly like more rugby played in the state school system and perhaps better pathways via the old Colts teams in junior clubs but I wouldn't destroy the quality of player that comes through the independent schools sector. For a start, what's the point of doing that? It's not a zero-sum whereby players from fee-paying schools are denying a boy from an East London council estate.

It's just more rhetoric from Jones that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny. Just fuck off maaate.

I'd accept Eddie's take is negatively expressed for no good reason, but that's also a needlessly negative take on Eddie's negative take. he's not asking for the quality of player coming though public schools to be reduced never mind destroyed, he's asking for more players and the overall standards to rise, and he's talking about the importance of people being out and about playing ball games that develop skills that could be applied to rugby

Two problems in this, the lack of games being played by kids, and the lack of athletic talent even venturing into the rugby scene. Eddie's not wrong about that, just he's offering no solutions and it's odd to be mentioning it now

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Interview with Eddie Jones


https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/e ... ls-1778827

He's not wrong, or certainly not wrong in large part, but it's a very negative way to deliver the message and there's nothing practical there to move the issue forwards. And he's doing it 7 years into his 8 year stint when it's obviously been an issue from decades back.

Also of interest was his praise for Zach Mercer, that Mercer was willing to get off his arse and go advance his career outside the norms and easier path available to him. Whether that's a late shout he should be allowed to pick whoever he wants, again 7 years into his stint, or whether (and arguably more worryingly) it comes on the back of feedback from England players they're not getting the club contracts they want, especially those on the margins of the EPS who have clubs hesitant to hand over cash when they might be missing but the player isn't certain of England pay benefits he's not exactly being clear on

That's the same Mercer that Eddie looked at for five minutes then binned off regardless of sustained form

There are some very specific things he looks at, and it could simply be Mercer has for Eddie addressed some of those, it could just be taking a pot at some of the constraints of the EPS system, it could be a bit of both

[Kawazaki]

...he's not asking for the quality of player coming though public schools to be reduced never mind destroyed

He said it needs blowing up.

[JM2K6]

He's not wrong, or certainly not wrong in large part, but it's a very negative way to deliver the message and there's nothing practical there to move the issue forwards. And he's doing it 7 years into his 8 year stint when it's obviously been an issue from decades back.

Also of interest was his praise for Zach Mercer, that Mercer was willing to get off his arse and go advance his career outside the norms and easier path available to him. Whether that's a late shout he should be allowed to pick whoever he wants, again 7 years into his stint, or whether (and arguably more worryingly) it comes on the back of feedback from England players they're not getting the club contracts they want, especially those on the margins of the EPS who have clubs hesitant to hand over cash when they might be missing but the player isn't certain of England pay benefits he's not exactly being clear on

That's the same Mercer that Eddie looked at for five minutes then binned off regardless of sustained form

There are some very specific things he looks at, and it could simply be Mercer has for Eddie addressed some of those, it could just be taking a pot at some of the constraints of the EPS system, it could be a bit of both

Mercer left to get more money in France and is playing the same rugby he did in England. This is some of Eddie's quality man management and personal skills:

ach Mercer has lifted the lid on his relationship with England head coach Eddie Jones, who told the rugby star he was "fat and lazy" before they'd even met.

Mercer, 24, made his senior debut for Bath in September 2016, a little less than 12 months into Jones' time as England boss. Still a teenager with dreams of making it into the national-team set-up at the time, however, his first brush with the Australian left an impression for all the wrong reasons.

“I remember the first phone call I had with him. He actually rang me and goes ‘Mate, Eddie here,’ and I’m like ‘Oh, hi.'" recalled Mercer during his appearance on the RugbyPass Offload podcast. "I wasn’t playing for Bath that long. And he was like: ‘Mate. Do you want to play for England?’ and I’m like ‘yeah.’ And Eddie goes: ‘Well you effing don’t look like you want to play for England. You’re fat, you’re lazy.’ I was like 'Oh, my god' and go ‘Yeah,’ and the phone call’s done. That’s it. It’s over.”

[Rhubarb & Custard]

...he's not asking for the quality of player coming though public schools to be reduced never mind destroyed

He said it needs blowing up.

It feels you're pleased to have the chance to be offended.

I'd suspect rather he means the limitations of a limited supply, not the actual supply as is

[Rhubarb & Custard]

That's the same Mercer that Eddie looked at for five minutes then binned off regardless of sustained form

There are some very specific things he looks at, and it could simply be Mercer has for Eddie addressed some of those, it could just be taking a pot at some of the constraints of the EPS system, it could be a bit of both

Mercer left to get more money in France and is playing the same rugby he did in England. This is some of Eddie's quality man management and personal skills:

ach Mercer has lifted the lid on his relationship with England head coach Eddie Jones, who told the rugby star he was "fat and lazy" before they'd even met.

Mercer, 24, made his senior debut for Bath in September 2016, a little less than 12 months into Jones' time as England boss. Still a teenager with dreams of making it into the national-team set-up at the time, however, his first brush with the Australian left an impression for all the wrong reasons.

“I remember the first phone call I had with him. He actually rang me and goes ‘Mate, Eddie here,’ and I’m like ‘Oh, hi.'" recalled Mercer during his appearance on the RugbyPass Offload podcast. "I wasn’t playing for Bath that long. And he was like: ‘Mate. Do you want to play for England?’ and I’m like ‘yeah.’ And Eddie goes: ‘Well you effing don’t look like you want to play for England. You’re fat, you’re lazy.’ I was like 'Oh, my god' and go ‘Yeah,’ and the phone call’s done. That’s it. It’s over.”

There are plenty of players who've disliked the way Eddie challenges them, some do but he's distinctive that's for sure. Really no stye of managing is going to work for everyone, I think Eddie is a bit OTT even having calmed down post stroke and even just generally mellowing, but he can cite a hugely successful coaching career

In fairness Mercer was carrying a little puppy fat if being nice and his work rate was shy of test rugby, given what's happened or not happened since the barbs haven't to this point worked. Still not as odd in general construct as telling Tom Youngs he wasn't going to consider him because he was a bad carrier, carrying many would have thought would have been the best part of Tom's game and the issues were more set piece and positioning

[Kawazaki]

...he's not asking for the quality of player coming though public schools to be reduced never mind destroyed

He said it needs blowing up.

It feels you're pleased to have the chance to be offended.

I'd suspect rather he means the limitations of a limited supply, not the actual supply as is

Offended is an odd word to use and certainly the wrong one. I was just calling out an idiot.

[Paddington Bear]

Eddie is Eddie, but I think he has a point on the academy system being a flawed use of someone's teenage years. Obviously rugby is very reliant on the public school system but there's no realistic prospect of that changing. State schools aren't going to take up rugby en masse and there is pretty significant resistance to rugby around, before we start to talk about recent developments with concussion etc.
Just as it is in Ireland and Scotland, rugby is a middle class game and will remain so, as someone mentioned above we could do a lot better with the players produced through this system.

[Kawazaki]

Eddie is Eddie, but I think he has a point on the academy system being a flawed use of someone's teenage years. Obviously rugby is very reliant on the public school system but there's no realistic prospect of that changing. State schools aren't going to take up rugby en masse and there is pretty significant resistance to rugby around, before we start to talk about recent developments with concussion etc.
Just as it is in Ireland and Scotland, rugby is a middle class game and will remain so, as someone mentioned above we could do a lot better with the players produced through this system.

The academies have nothing to do with public schools though. The academies will recruit young players from the independent and state school sector. He's always had the esoteric view that young men from a poor upbringing make better rugby players than young men from a privileged upbringing. This goes right back to his own upbringing. He's always preferred RL players in Australia to RU players and of course RL players don't tend to come from the private school system in Australia.

It's just more evidence that Jones uses all kinds of subjective criteria when selecting players that manifest themselves in hunches and punts. It's a massive personal failing that he has that he hasn't the self-awareness to acknowledge or his employers (and the press) haven't the cajones to call him out on.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

The academies have nothing to do with public schools though.

Good one

[Paddington Bear]

Eddie is Eddie, but I think he has a point on the academy system being a flawed use of someone's teenage years. Obviously rugby is very reliant on the public school system but there's no realistic prospect of that changing. State schools aren't going to take up rugby en masse and there is pretty significant resistance to rugby around, before we start to talk about recent developments with concussion etc.
Just as it is in Ireland and Scotland, rugby is a middle class game and will remain so, as someone mentioned above we could do a lot better with the players produced through this system.

The academies have nothing to do with public schools though. The academies will recruit young players from the independent and state school sector. He's always had the esoteric view that young men from a poor upbringing make better rugby players than young men from a privileged upbringing. This goes right back to his own upbringing. He's always preferred RL players in Australia to RU players and of course RL players don't tend to come from the private school system in Australia.

It's just more evidence that Jones uses all kinds of subjective criteria when selecting players that manifest themselves in hunches and punts. It's a massive personal failing that he has that he hasn't the self-awareness to acknowledge or his employers (and the press) haven't the cajones to call him out on.

As R&C points out, your first point isn't really true.

Eddie isn't the first person to believe that working class lads make better sportsmen, you hear it all the time from Welsh pundits, Fergie was big on it etc. I don't necessarily subscribe to it (though people like say Shaun Edwards seem to have a bit extra to them) but it isn't some unique pathology, and the idea that there is a coach out there who doesn't use subjective criteria as part of selection is basically laughable. How can you be totally objective anyway? It's a subjective game, hence the 'best Lions XV' chats that go on and on.

[sockwithaticket]

And yet not much of a peep out of him whe our player pathways delivered a record winning run. A cynic might suggest he's just seeding more and more stuff out there in the media to excuse the mediocrity that's clouded his team since the last world cup.

He has had a view on background giving players an edge, but since this has resulted in the likes of Teimana Harrison ("Street fighter, maaate") being yanked off after 30 minutes in a test never to be seen again or Lewis Boyce adding to the legion of players called up never to make the match squad, I'm not convinced it's anything more than chippiness and 'I am rugby Yoda' nonsense from Eddie.

[Kawazaki]

The academies have nothing to do with public schools though.

Good one

Ok, name a Premiership academy that draws all of its talent just from an independent school.

[Kawazaki]

Eddie is Eddie, but I think he has a point on the academy system being a flawed use of someone's teenage years. Obviously rugby is very reliant on the public school system but there's no realistic prospect of that changing. State schools aren't going to take up rugby en masse and there is pretty significant resistance to rugby around, before we start to talk about recent developments with concussion etc.
Just as it is in Ireland and Scotland, rugby is a middle class game and will remain so, as someone mentioned above we could do a lot better with the players produced through this system.

The academies have nothing to do with public schools though. The academies will recruit young players from the independent and state school sector. He's always had the esoteric view that young men from a poor upbringing make better rugby players than young men from a privileged upbringing. This goes right back to his own upbringing. He's always preferred RL players in Australia to RU players and of course RL players don't tend to come from the private school system in Australia.

It's just more evidence that Jones uses all kinds of subjective criteria when selecting players that manifest themselves in hunches and punts. It's a massive personal failing that he has that he hasn't the self-awareness to acknowledge or his employers (and the press) haven't the cajones to call him out on.

As R&C points out, your first point isn't really true.

Eddie isn't the first person to believe that working class lads make better sportsmen, you hear it all the time from Welsh pundits, Fergie was big on it etc. I don't necessarily subscribe to it (though people like say Shaun Edwards seem to have a bit extra to them) but it isn't some unique pathology, and the idea that there is a coach out there who doesn't use subjective criteria as part of selection is basically laughable. How can you be totally objective anyway? It's a subjective game, hence the 'best Lions XV' chats that go on and on.

Jones has revealed/told us about some of the criteria he uses;

He doesn't rate performances in the Premiership.
He doesn't rate form.
He doesn't rate players from public schools.
He doesn't rate players that the press and public rate.

He rates anyone from the southern hemisphere.
He rates anyone with a RL background.
He rates anyone with a low income/single parent back story.

Now, I've got no problems with a dumb schmuck like me spouting nonsense selection criteria like that for a bit of fun in places like this, but the England head coach? Nah.

[Kawazaki]

The Telegraph calls out the Jones bullshit...

https://archive.ph/YbiI0

[ASMO]

Jones is a trolling clown, nobody should bite on this rancid bait.

[SaintK]

The Telegraph calls out the Jones bullshit...

https://archive.ph/YbiI0

Thanks for that.
Jones talking bollocks again............shock horror!

[Rhubarb & Custard]

The academies have nothing to do with public schools though.

Good one

Ok, name a Premiership academy that draws all of its talent just from an independent school.

That's not the charge and thus not a point to even try and defend.

Nobody being sensible thinks rugby is much more than a niche sport, and it doesn't draw talent equally form across the nation and/or nations schools because for many it either doesn't feature or features in such small fashion it's practically not a thing. Within that niche interest there's a very strong interest from a large number of public schools which provide some fantastic facilities some excellent coaching and give over significant time to the game, and it's entirely understandable on the back of that that academies, clubs and country disproportionally feature players who've attended public schools, yes some of that will be people on the back of sports scholarships but even without that it'd still be the case.

None of which means the public schools need to be excoriated, quite reasonably they be thanked. Just there's a huge untapped community rugby isn't reaching out to which naturally means we'll be missing out on some of the best athletic and/or rugby talent in England. There are no easy fixes for that and it's hardly unique to rugby that not everyone gets an equal chance.

Myself I think there's scope for touch rugby to grow as an activity for kids (and adults) and I've long thought handball is a game that seems easy to provide facilities for should appeal to many and has a lot of transferable skills for rugby. Get those numbers up and perhaps look to identify some within that who have the athletic talent and desire to play contact sport and that's maybe one way to bump numbers. As is the time many kids spend in physical activities is lamentable, and investments in kids' PE is getting worse

Arguing against the idea rugby couldn't reach more seems pointless, certainly the actual England team would agree there's much more to be done. Which gets one back to thinking you just want to take a swipe at Eddie, and all he's done in this instance is point out an obvious failing and offered no constructive path forwards which one might care to chide for only saying here's a problem you lot should do something

[Kawazaki]

Good one

Ok, name a Premiership academy that draws all of its talent just from an independent school.

That's not the charge and thus not a point to even try and defend.

Nobody being sensible thinks rugby is much more than a niche sport, and it doesn't draw talent equally form across the nation and/or nations schools because for many it either doesn't feature or features in such small fashion it's practically not a thing. Within that niche interest there's a very strong interest from a large number of public schools which provide some fantastic facilities some excellent coaching and give over significant time to the game, and it's entirely understandable on the back of that that academies, clubs and country disproportionally feature players who've attended public schools, yes some of that will be people on the back of sports scholarships but even without that it'd still be the case.

None of which means the public schools need to be excoriated, quite reasonably they be thanked. Just there's a huge untapped community rugby isn't reaching out to which naturally means we'll be missing out on some of the best athletic and/or rugby talent in England. There are no easy fixes for that and it's hardly unique to rugby that not everyone gets an equal chance.

Myself I think there's scope for touch rugby to grow as an activity for kids (and adults) and I've long thought handball is a game that seems easy to provide facilities for should appeal to many and has a lot of transferable skills for rugby. Get those numbers up and perhaps look to identify some within that who have the athletic talent and desire to play contact sport and that's maybe one way to bump numbers. As is the time many kids spend in physical activities is lamentable, and investments in kids' PE is getting worse

Arguing against the idea rugby couldn't reach more seems pointless, certainly the actual England team would agree there's much more to be done. Which gets one back to thinking you just want to take a swipe at Eddie, and all he's done in this instance is point out an obvious failing and offered no constructive path forwards which one might care to chide for only saying here's a problem you lot should do something

You're talking absolute bollocks.

Have you read anything I've written?

[Kawazaki]

The Telegraph calls out the Jones bullshit...

https://archive.ph/YbiI0

Independent schools call Jones out as well

https://archive.ph/tNkQ4


This might actually go down as one of the most stupid things he's said. I wish they'd just sack the prick, he's just not worth the hassle.

[Margin__Walker]

Cips on Eddie in the Mail. Pretty articulate on the subject and a lot of it rings true.

There is some merit to what Eddie Jones said when he criticised English rugby's private school system.

The game in this country does have a class and participation issue in that it does not reach out to enough children from council estates or state schools.

There is a class bias shown at times. The result of that is talent being missed. This stems from the top of the Rugby Football Union and is not the fault of the schooling system.

Eddie Jones feels that English rugby players with private educations lack leadership skills

Eddie said English rugby players who are educated privately do not develop enough leadership skills or the ability to deal with adversity because of their schooling. He believes England should 'blow the whole thing up' to try to improve the chances of future success.

But the reason Eddie is not getting the type of players he says he wants is because of the environment he creates with England and not the schooling system. That is an easy target.

I'd like to think I come from a middle ground and a neutral perspective on this topic.

I grew up on a council estate but was fortunate to be able to attend private schools on scholarships because of my ability in rugby and other sports.

My education was at Donhead, Oratory School and Whitgift School. All three are great schools which I would likely not have had the chance to go to unless I was good at sport.

The private school system in England has allowed a lot of people to flourish and have successful rugby careers who might not have done so had they gone to other places of education. I count myself among that number.

Don't get me wrong, the private system is not perfect. It misses a lot of potential talent.

Historically, there has been a systemic class issue within English rugby because of who the majority of the participants are.

The RFU do need to do more to make the game more inclusive for everyone. They needs to try to attract people from every class of society and increase participation.

At the professional level, players have been forced to take pay cuts and at the grassroots participation is down and the game itself is declining in some areas. A lot of that can be pointed back to how the RFU runs things. But that is a different point from the one which Eddie raised about the lack of leadership in his players.

England could learn a thing or two from Ireland, who have impressed in recent showings

Eddie should look at himself rather than criticise others. The environment you create as a coach is reflected by the performance of your team and players.

If a coach creates a decision-making environment which allows his or her players to problem solve, have an input on how the team is run, and is self-reflective of his or her own performance, then their side's ability to react under pressure will grow. Eddie does not do that.

When the team loses, Eddie points the finger elsewhere. The situations he creates in training are all about generating quick ball. If the ball is not quick, then he turns it over.

The bigger question is: can your attacking framework create quick ball?

Everyone wants quick ball, but it is not always possible and teams need to learn how to create it. England currently do not win games on their attack shape, unlike Ireland who are leading the way right now.

When England are matched physically, that is when you see them struggle because they do not have the attacking structure to break teams down. Because the players are told exactly what to do by Eddie and how the game will go, they struggle to react when things do not go to plan.

Again, to be clear, this is not down to their education but is the fault of the England set-up, driven by Jones as head coach.

Often people say you need to 'play the game' with coaches because a lot of them do not like to have conversations on their ideas. They just want you to go on the field and do as they say.

Equally, a lot of players like to be told what to do. That is fine and works for some, but if you have too many players like that, it means you have a team who cannot think on their feet and react under pressure.

As a player, you often get dismissed as trouble if you question the coach because there is a traditional hierarchy within the game.

Warren Gatland took a more open approach to coaching than that of Jones at this moment

I've been lucky in my career that some of my coaches like Shaun Edwards, Brian Ashton and Warren Gatland were open to hearing my views. Many others are not. Eddie is a coach who does not like to be questioned.

Any player who speaks his mind in this England environment is dismissed. Just look at what happened to Danny Care.

He spent four years away because he confronted Eddie. Surely a coach who wants players to think for themselves would encourage two-way conversation?

The ability to solve problems on the pitch is key to being a successful team because no game, however much you plan or train, goes perfectly.

A good example of a team who are excellent at that are Harlequins, particularly in the season they won the Premiership.

How many times did they come from behind to win games that year? It showed their players had leadership skills and the ability to bounce back from adversity.

Two guys who were key to that success were Danny and Marcus Smith. But when they play for England, they do not play with the same freedom.

Marcus Smith struggles to replicate his impressive Harlequins form in an England shirt

To me that speaks volumes of England's environment under Eddie. He is in charge and all the messages come from him. That much has also been shown by the fact Eddie has had a total of 17 assistants since he took charge after the failure of the 2015 World Cup. The huge turnover of staff shows uncertainty and a lack of understanding within the environment.

For England to go to the next level and produce consistent, winning rugby, they need an environment which regularly challenges the players on their rugby intelligence and decision-making. If they get that, it will create a group who can problem-solve on the run in games.

Many things can be looked at in rugby and where the player pool comes from is one of them.

But rather than focus on that, let's start with an England coach who takes responsibility.

[sockwithaticket]

Good piece. Wish Cips would get a bit more pundit work as he's always been insightful on the rare occasions I've seen or heard him.

[Kawazaki]

The language is moderate from Cipriani but the message is an evisceration. Damning.

[LenCohen]

Cipriani sounds bang on. Any clips of team training on England's YouTube videos show them playing at a million miles an hour, pretty much off the cuff. Which just doesn't really happen at test level.

[sockwithaticket]

I gather Burrell has also written for the Daily Heil and branded Eddie's regime a disctatorship.

[Dragster]

I’d still take Eddie over a divisive twat like cips. The blokes a toilet.

Anyway, Rugby needs to get into its head that football claims all the best athletic talent at state school if they don’t have two left feet. I read the monye piece about pace and have to remind myself he probably has two left feet hence he played rugby.

[SaintK]

I’d still take Eddie over a divisive twat like cips. The blokes a toilet.

Anyway, Rugby needs to get into its head that football claims all the best athletic talent at state school if they don’t have two left feet. I read the monye piece about pace and have to remind myself he probably has two left feet hence he played rugby.

All that aside, I can't wait until next October after England are dumped out of the RWC and Jones is at last shown the door.

[sockwithaticket]

I’d still take Eddie over a divisive twat like cips. The blokes a toilet.

Anyway, Rugby needs to get into its head that football claims all the best athletic talent at state school if they don’t have two left feet. I read the monye piece about pace and have to remind myself he probably has two left feet hence he played rugby.

I read that, it was not a well made argument (shocking for Ugo, I know).

Those lightning quick lads he wrote about probably weren't picked up by football clubs, so I get the idea that maybe rugby could've turned their heads instead for a professional sport career, but that assumes they'd actually like and want to play rugby. As we see with the gap in 6N and Premiership viewing, there's an awful lot of people who just don't care that much about rugby even when exposed to it. I'm not sure with its injury risks and general life sacrifices (no Christmas, weekends largely not being free) that the decent, but hardly life changing salary of the average rugby player would make it that attractive a prospect if you don't really like the sport.

Equally, having athletic gifts, while obviously helpful, isn't the same as being a good rugby player. There's a reason Carlin Isles and Perry Baker have focused on 7s where their raw speed counts for much more than it would in the full version of the game where other learned skills would be of greater importance.

[Tichtheid]

Equally, having athletic gifts, while obviously helpful, isn't the same as being a good rugby player. There's a reason Carlin Isles and Perry Baker have focused on 7s where their raw speed counts for much more than it would in the full version of the game where other learned skills would be of greater importance.

I was just thinking that as I read the posts.

Freddie Owsley is ridiculously quick, though not quick enough to make it as a top level 400m runner. He made fools of the Brive back three for Edinburgh last season, yet he never broke through at Bristol and there are a few Embra supporters who don't think he's a rugby player.

For me the jury is still out on him, as with others, having that pace is a good place to start.

[LenCohen]

Equally, having athletic gifts, while obviously helpful, isn't the same as being a good rugby player. There's a reason Carlin Isles and Perry Baker have focused on 7s where their raw speed counts for much more than it would in the full version of the game where other learned skills would be of greater importance.

I was just thinking that as I read the posts.

Freddie Owsley is ridiculously quick, though not quick enough to make it as a top level 400m runner. He made fools of the Brive back three for Edinburgh last season, yet he never broke through at Bristol and there are a few Embra supporters who don't think he's a rugby player.

For me the jury is still out on him, as with others, having that pace is a good place to start.

Edinburgh are desperately trying to offload him. Pace is not the be all and end all.

[Margin__Walker]

To be fair to Ugu, I'm guessing the argument would be that If you had 100 kids with exceptional pace taking up the game, you'd find a handful with the tools you need to make it as a rounded player.

Sock nailed it with the first problem with the argument though. Most of these kids either won't want to play rugby or it's not on their radar at all. And that's a really hard problem to solve. The sport just doesn't have the penetration required at the moment to appeal in enough cases. You would have to be introduced to it in school in most cases and if your state school doesn't play it in any serious way, the sport's not going to get a foot in the door.

[Mahoney]

I think it's worth remembering thought that the sport has its own intrinsic attraction even if you aren't familiar with it - there's a mindset / character that will really enjoy tackling and running into contact and just prefer playing rugby to playing football the moment they try it.

[Tichtheid]

To be fair to Ugu, I'm guessing the argument would be that If you had 100 kids with exceptional pace taking up the game, you'd find a handful with the tools you need to make it as a rounded player.

Sock nailed it with the first problem with the argument though. Most of these kids either won't want to play rugby or it's not on their radar at all. And that's a really hard problem to solve. The sport just doesn't have the penetration required at the moment to appeal in enough cases. You would have to be introduced to it in school in most cases and if your state school doesn't play it in any serious way, the sport's not going to get a foot in the door.

We had a teacher who was really into fencing, so he ran a fencing club. Quite a few kids from our school ended up in the Scottish Schools team and were successful at championships because the teacher was also a good coach.
Same for table tennis, our music teacher and one of the French teachers loved the sport, so coached it at lunch times.
Ours was a state school and the PE teacher hated football, but we had good rugby teams.

I really wanted to do judo but we had no way into the sport and the city was too far away.

I'm not sure this ad hoc, pot luck approach has changed much in the decades since I was at school.