Worcester and Wasps GONE?

[Torquemada 1420]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union

Former Worcester Warriors chief executive Jim O'Toole says he has submitted a bid to secure the long-term future of the club.

But the club would need to be placed into administration for his plan to succeed, he added.

Errr.. presumably so all the debt can go unpaid. I assume administration would be a breach of GP rules?

[SaintK]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union

Former Worcester Warriors chief executive Jim O'Toole says he has submitted a bid to secure the long-term future of the club.

But the club would need to be placed into administration for his plan to succeed, he added.

Errr.. presumably to all the debt can go unpaid. I assume administration would be a breach of GP rules?

35 point deduction.......................but no relegation!!

[Torquemada 1420]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union

Former Worcester Warriors chief executive Jim O'Toole says he has submitted a bid to secure the long-term future of the club.

But the club would need to be placed into administration for his plan to succeed, he added.

Errr.. presumably to all the debt can go unpaid. I assume administration would be a breach of GP rules?

35 point deduction.......................but no relegation!!

[SaintK]

Looks like curtains
The bastard spivs who own Worcester have failed to pay players and staff today. Haven't even got the bollocks to put their hands in their own deeply filled pockets

Worcester's players and staff have been told they will not be paid on time this week as the future of the Premiership club remains uncertain.
In an email to employees, the club's owners said they "do not have the money at this moment" to fulfil the payroll on Wednesday.

[inactionman]

Looks like curtains
The bastard spivs who own Wasps have failed to pay players and staff today. Haven't even got the bollocks to put their hands in their own deeply filled pockets

Worcester's players and staff have been told they will not be paid on time this week as the future of the Premiership club remains uncertain.
In an email to employees, the club's owners said they "do not have the money at this moment" to fulfil the payroll on Wednesday.

The poor owners must be skint after buying all those car parks

[Raggs]

Looks like curtains
The bastard spivs who own Wasps have failed to pay players and staff today. Haven't even got the bollocks to put their hands in their own deeply filled pockets

Worcester's players and staff have been told they will not be paid on time this week as the future of the Premiership club remains uncertain.
In an email to employees, the club's owners said they "do not have the money at this moment" to fulfil the payroll on Wednesday.

Erm.... When did wasps owners say they'd pay Worcester players?

[SaintK]

Looks like curtains
The bastard spivs who own Wasps have failed to pay players and staff today. Haven't even got the bollocks to put their hands in their own deeply filled pockets

Worcester's players and staff have been told they will not be paid on time this week as the future of the Premiership club remains uncertain.
In an email to employees, the club's owners said they "do not have the money at this moment" to fulfil the payroll on Wednesday.

Erm.... When did wasps owners say they'd pay Worcester players?

Whoops, typo, sorry! Edited

[Kawazaki]

I think I read that Worcester's monthly wage bill is c.£500,000 and monthly bills including loan repayments that total c.£400,000.

That's a lot of money to find every month when you have nothing to sell.

[sockwithaticket]

Apparently if the wages go unpaid for 14 days it's breach of contract and the players are free to go to other clubs. Fin Smith has supposedly already agreed terms with Saints for 23/24, but would join them for this season if he remains unpaid.

There's also a back up fixture list prepared that is in serious danger of being used. Sarries were due to have the first week of the Prem as a bye, but they've now moved their Ampthill game forward as it looks increasingly likely that they won't have that bye after all.

[I like neeps]

I think I read that Worcester's monthly wage bill is c.£500,000 and monthly bills including loan repayments that total c.£400,000.

That's a lot of money to find every month when you have nothing to sell.

Surely it's higher than that? SRU were outbid for Duhan and the top earners up here get c300k. Can't believe he went to Worcester for anything but big money.

[sockwithaticket]

I think I read that Worcester's monthly wage bill is c.£500,000 and monthly bills including loan repayments that total c.£400,000.

That's a lot of money to find every month when you have nothing to sell.

Surely it's higher than that? SRU were outbid for Duhan and the top earners up here get c300k. Can't believe he went to Worcester for anything but big money.

They wouldn't be the only club not spending up to the cap. Duhan and Sutherland aside, they really don't have many players you'd think would be on a big wedge.

[I like neeps]

I think I read that Worcester's monthly wage bill is c.£500,000 and monthly bills including loan repayments that total c.£400,000.

That's a lot of money to find every month when you have nothing to sell.

Surely it's higher than that? SRU were outbid for Duhan and the top earners up here get c300k. Can't believe he went to Worcester for anything but big money.

They wouldn't be the only club not spending up to the cap. Duhan and Sutherland aside, they really don't have many players you'd think would be on a big wedge.

Yes, no doubt, but I just can't believe he's on half of the entire squads salary cap.

Sutherland I wouldn't be surprised if he was on less than we all think. Was quite injury prone and he left Edinburgh after budgets had been set as he fell out with Cockers.

[Raggs]

Can someone just explain to me here, administration would basically mean the club has to sell off assets to try and settle debts right? So by selling off the assets before going into admin, the assets would still be available to any phoenix organisation?

[inactionman]

Surely it's higher than that? SRU were outbid for Duhan and the top earners up here get c300k. Can't believe he went to Worcester for anything but big money.

They wouldn't be the only club not spending up to the cap. Duhan and Sutherland aside, they really don't have many players you'd think would be on a big wedge.

Yes, no doubt, but I just can't believe he's on half of the entire squads salary cap.

Sutherland I wouldn't be surprised if he was on less than we all think. Was quite injury prone and he left Edinburgh after budgets had been set as he fell out with Cockers.

I read £500k per month in kawazaki's post, not per annum.

[I like neeps]

They wouldn't be the only club not spending up to the cap. Duhan and Sutherland aside, they really don't have many players you'd think would be on a big wedge.

Yes, no doubt, but I just can't believe he's on half of the entire squads salary cap.

Sutherland I wouldn't be surprised if he was on less than we all think. Was quite injury prone and he left Edinburgh after budgets had been set as he fell out with Cockers.

I read £500k per month in kawazaki's post, not per annum.

Yeah got my figures very confused there.

[Torquemada 1420]

Can someone just explain to me here, administration would basically mean the club has to sell off assets to try and settle debts right? So by selling off the assets before going into admin, the assets would still be available to any phoenix organisation?

The whole administration thing is a murky process because, if effect, liquidators have unlimited powers and are unaccountable to anyone. The real world effect is the business in the sh*t gets a whole heap of protection and the liquidators can sell the assets to a "newco" (or more) whilst gouging exorbitant fees. It's legalised phonexing which results in genuine creditors being shafted.

[Iain(bobbity)]

Pulled out of the Glasgow match, very understandably.

[vball]

As part of Highland RFC's centenary celebrations, we had managed to get Glasgow Warriors to play Worcester Warriors in a warm-up in Inverness this weekend.. That was a big part of our centenary plans and would have been the biggest match in Inverness since Scotland played Wales U20 about 10 years ago. Alas Worcester have pulled out and it is understandable.

Sorry to hear about Worcester's woes and hope it goes well for them but cannot see it.

I really pity all the kids who were so looking forward to seeing some of their heroes play. It is 4 hours to Edinburgh or Glasgow so for a lot of them this would be their only chance.

[Tichtheid]

As part of Highland RFC's centenary celebrations, we had managed to get Glasgow Warriors to play Worcester Warriors in a warm-up in Inverness this weekend.. That was a big part of our centenary plans and would have been the biggest match in Inverness since Scotland played Wales U20 about 10 years ago. Alas Worcester have pulled out and it is understandable.

Sorry to hear about Worcester's woes and hope it goes well for them but cannot see it.

I really pity all the kids who were so looking forward to seeing some of their heroes play. It is 4 hours to Edinburgh or Glasgow so for a lot of them this would be their only chance.

It's a real blow to rugby in the north, and a shame for Highland in particular.

I hope Glasgow go to Inverness and hold an open training session or something if opposition can't be found.

[Dogbert]

As part of Highland RFC's centenary celebrations, we had managed to get Glasgow Warriors to play Worcester Warriors in a warm-up in Inverness this weekend.. That was a big part of our centenary plans and would have been the biggest match in Inverness since Scotland played Wales U20 about 10 years ago. Alas Worcester have pulled out and it is understandable.

Sorry to hear about Worcester's woes and hope it goes well for them but cannot see it.

I really pity all the kids who were so looking forward to seeing some of their heroes play. It is 4 hours to Edinburgh or Glasgow so for a lot of them this would be their only chance.

It's a real blow to rugby in the north, and a shame for Highland in particular.

I hope Glasgow go to Inverness and hold an open training session or something if opposition can't be found.

Rumour has it that the Ayrshire Bulls are stepping in for a game to go ahead

[Iain(bobbity)]

Latest is that "payroll issues" have delayed August salaries further, apparently some players have issued breach of contract notices now.

Diamond has said today that rugby players are "Coronation Street actors" to Premiership football's "Hollywood stars". And he's not wrong.

I'm increasingly unsure why anyone would run into brick walls for soap star money though.

[sockwithaticket]

Think we're edging towards a conclusion now, surely the club can't participate this season with all this going on.

A core of Worcester Warriors players are unwilling to play against London Irish in the opening game of the new Gallagher Premiership season if Colin Goldring and Jason Whittingham are still co-owners of the club.

Worcester have amassed £25 million in debts and face a winding-up court hearing on October 6 at which HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) is expected to demand full and immediate payment of a £6 million tax bill.

Goldring and Whittingham told the squad on Wednesday that they had secured emergency funding and would pay their August wages in full and on time — but last night the players were still waiting for their money.

It is understood that most players, if not the whole squad, submitted breach-of-contract letters to the club yesterday morning, which will allow them to leave within 28 days unless the pay situation is rectified.

Even if the money were to be deposited today, a number of players would still be unwilling to play for the owners. The club blamed a payroll issue for the delay, but trust has been eroded; the excuses have worn thin.

The lack of job security beyond next month and the risk of injury that comes with playing have contributed to some players considering their position. “No one has been paid and, even if they are, a number of players aren’t prepared to play for them [the owners],” a source said.

With their accounts frozen the club have been unable to cover operating costs before the opening game on September 10; pay for a bus to take the squad to London Irish; buy medical tape or strapping; or provide players’ food at the training ground on Monday. Given that all non-rugby staff were told to stop working more than a fortnight ago, there may be no one available to cook it either.

Ted Hill, the captain, was at the launch event for the Premiership season yesterday wearing last season’s kit. Worcester, who cannot afford to personalise jerseys, have asked Premiership Rugby Limited (PRL) for special dispensation to play without names on the back of their shirts so they can reuse them.

The club need to access new funds to cover all these costs, and more, in advance of the new season. The owners, who owe money to suppliers, to player agents, to a rival club, to HMRC and to the government, have assured PRL and the RFU that they will have that money in place.

It was on that basis that PRL confirmed the Premiership would at least begin as a 13-team competition. “It definitely is a crisis for Worcester,” Simon Massie-Taylor, the PRL chief executive, said. “Worcester are able to take the pitch and start the season but they are not out of the woods yet.
“The next month or so is key for them in finding a long-term solution. There’s still a lot of work that needs to be done by them in the next few weeks.”

There are two parties interested in buying Worcester. Jim O’Toole, the club’s former chief executive, is leading one consortium but will buy only if Worcester are placed into administration. Goldring and Whittingham are determined not to go down that road and want to sell only to a buyer prepared to “clear all creditors”.

Steve Diamond, the director of rugby, said it would be a “tragedy” if Worcester folded but he was bullish about their prospects of making it to London Irish a week on Saturday and of completing the season. After the opening game, Worcester return to Sixways Stadium for two home fixtures.

“I’m 100 per cent confident that we will do that [complete the season],” he said. “If we do manage to get through this, then money does start coming in through the turnstiles.”

The fear is that Worcester may not be the only club to find themselves in dire financial straits this year, given they almost all run at a loss and will now have to brace themselves for their energy bills increasing by 400 to 500 per cent. “There are other clubs in a precarious position,” Diamond said.

Wasps had to navigate some choppy financial waters during the summer, leading to a proposal, swiftly rejected, that they and Worcester should merge.

“We will move towards a more sustainable model,” Massie-Taylor said. The question is: what does that model look like? There are voices around boardroom tables contemplating the merits of a ten-team Premiership.

Massie-Taylor admitted the RFU’s process of vetting owners and directors would need to be more robust to ensure a long-term funding model is in place.

https://archive.ph/0QNyi

[I like neeps]

Latest is that "payroll issues" have delayed August salaries further, apparently some players have issued breach of contract notices now.

Diamond has said today that rugby players are "Coronation Street actors" to Premiership football's "Hollywood stars". And he's not wrong.

I'm increasingly unsure why anyone would run into brick walls for soap star money though.

I'm not, what's the alternative for the players? Graduate recruitment and lifestyle in the UK is hardly a panacea. May as well try and live the dream for a few years and who knows.

[Lobby]

Latest is that "payroll issues" have delayed August salaries further, apparently some players have issued breach of contract notices now.

Diamond has said today that rugby players are "Coronation Street actors" to Premiership football's "Hollywood stars". And he's not wrong.

I'm increasingly unsure why anyone would run into brick walls for soap star money though.

I'm not, what's the alternative for the players? Graduate recruitment and lifestyle in the UK is hardly a panacea. May as well try and live the dream for a few years and who knows.

For most professional rugby players, a fairer comparison would be "Coronation Street extras". Only the international stars are on soap star wages. Standard club players are on a lot less.

[Mahoney]

Which is in principal fine, it's a game - being paid to play a game at all is awesome. But the injury consequences, particularly the brain impacts, change that equation quite a bit.

There's a certain irony that football is a game which would totally work at a pro level with players earning £30K a year, but can afford to pay them that a day, while rugby can only afford median salaries but may cripple or brain damage you into the bargain.

Edit - using 'cripple' in the loose sense that your joints are screwed at the age of 40 & you can barely walk downstairs

[I like neeps]

Latest is that "payroll issues" have delayed August salaries further, apparently some players have issued breach of contract notices now.

Diamond has said today that rugby players are "Coronation Street actors" to Premiership football's "Hollywood stars". And he's not wrong.

I'm increasingly unsure why anyone would run into brick walls for soap star money though.

I'm not, what's the alternative for the players? Graduate recruitment and lifestyle in the UK is hardly a panacea. May as well try and live the dream for a few years and who knows.

For most professional rugby players, a fairer comparison would be "Coronation Street extras". Only the international stars are on soap star wages. Standard club players are on a lot less.

Salary of a 23 year old rugby player is still likely higher than a 23 year old anything apart from IB analyst, white show law firm first year or massive only fans star though.

[sockwithaticket]

Which is in principal fine, it's a game - being paid to play a game at all is awesome. But the injury consequences, particularly the brain impacts, change that equation quite a bit.

There's a certain irony that football is a game which would totally work at a pro level with players earning £30K a year, but can afford to pay them that a day, while rugby can only afford median salaries but may cripple or brain damage you into the bargain.

Edit - using 'cripple' in the loose sense that your joints are screwed at the age of 40 & you can barely walk downstairs

The may cripple bit is important. I suspect if it was then there'd be fewer willing professionals and it might become a sport populated only by those for whom it presented their best chance at a somewhat decent pay day.

Some like Dylan Hartley end up pretty broken by the game while others get away more or less scot free. Tindall, for example, still trots out to play full contact amateur rugby, plays a load of golf and does his various cycling events.

While examples of the latter remain plentiful, players will still be happy to play even for salaries that look meagre considering their potential standard of living after playing. At least at the time. Some way into their career or after it concludes, they may feel differently.

[FalseBayFC]

The Worcester boys are showing their mettle. Grey Bloem boy Francois Venter and other Worcester Warriors are tweeting and showing a brave face.

[Brazil]

Which is in principal fine, it's a game - being paid to play a game at all is awesome. But the injury consequences, particularly the brain impacts, change that equation quite a bit.

There's a certain irony that football is a game which would totally work at a pro level with players earning £30K a year, but can afford to pay them that a day, while rugby can only afford median salaries but may cripple or brain damage you into the bargain.

Edit - using 'cripple' in the loose sense that your joints are screwed at the age of 40 & you can barely walk downstairs

I don't know what point Diamond is trying to make, and suspect it might have been a leading question. They may be on soap stars money, they may not have the draw of footballers, their salaries may well be grossly inflated in comparison to the overall appeal and scope of rugby in the international and even national sports market. They're still owed the salaries they're contracted for, and if you don't pay them then they can take the necessary recourse within the law including withdrawal of labour.

[sockwithaticket]

Just saw that one of the Worcester academy lads has posted a video stating that he's been made homeless and had to be put up by an older squad member. Additional context in a comment from someone was that the academy house in which some players live has been repossessed due to Worcester not paying the mortgage.

[Kawazaki]

Just saw that one of the Worcester academy lads has posted a video stating that he's been made homeless and had to be put up by an older squad member. Additional context in a comment from someone was that the academy house in which some players live has been repossessed due to Worcester not paying the mortgage.

That's quite old news, it was repossessed weeks ago.

[sockwithaticket]

Fair enough. The video was only posted today, though.

[Torquemada 1420]

Morecambe put up for sale by owner Bond Group Investments

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/62768939

[I like neeps]

Not good.

[ASMO]

its peanuts compared to

[Torquemada 1420]

its peanuts compared to

The difference being none of those is currently illegally in the red to HMRC AFAIK.

[Kawazaki]

its peanuts compared to

The difference being none of those is currently illegally in the red to HMRC AFAIK.

Only one of the Premiership clubs is late with a tax payment afawk.

[JM2K6]

Not good.

The Mail shouldn't be trusted. Ever.

[Niegs]

Saw it as well in a tweet from Andy Goode, but there are several people in the thread (including one anorak who said he's been following accounts since 2013 ) with better financial accounting sense than a Mail journo (presumably, as I know only the absolute basics! ):

[inactionman]

Apparently August wages not completely paid for Backoffice staff, despite assurances.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/62820629