Worcester and Wasps GONE?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

And he was deemed fit and proper to own a Premiership club by PRL and the RFU? What a mess!

There might be instances where when the authorities want to look into is X a fit and proper person you'd allow a delay in that investigation whilst a club was struggling with their financing as Worcester were. Why however you'd allow a delay for a person suspected of serious financial transgressions to shore up a serious financial shortcoming I've no idea, other than the RFU wanted to pass the buck and hope it'd stay somebody else's problem

From the article it seems that both Jason Whittingham and Colin Goldring were able to evade any financial or other scrutiny because they were not part of the consortium that bought Worcester (or at least were not presented as such). The original consortium consisted of Jed McCrory, Scott Priestnall, Errol Pope and Dave Seymour. McRory was appointed as a Director of the Club, but announced his intention to resign a couple of weeks later and installed Whittingham and Goldring as directors to succeed him. They then took over control of the Club 6 months later.

Although they only came onto the Worcester Board after the takeover, the various Company shenanigans in the background suggest that this was always their intention, and the Consortium was a way of hiding their involvement until after the sale had been concluded.

Once Golding was barred by the Solicitors Regulation Authority they did start to look into him, but they put that on hold so he could address the financial situation at Wuss. That's not something one might not want to do in speculative fashion, it's something they practically did (or didn't) do even given the context of allowing someone at the heart of a financial fraud being left to attend to financial mismanagement

[Iain(bobbity)]

Looks like any attempts to hold on to the land at Sixways have been thwarted

https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/23 ... -replaced/

[inactionman]

Looks like any attempts to hold on to the land at Sixways have been thwarted

https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/23 ... -replaced/

I'm not quite sure what this means in the broader sense - can the new director/administrator roll back the sale (well, the utter fucking giveaway) of the land and associated assets? All I could infer is that the two arses can't direct or influence the companies or administration any more.

Sorry, I'm a bit of a duffer with legalese.

[weegie01]

Looks like any attempts to hold on to the land at Sixways have been thwarted

https://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/23 ... -replaced/

I'm not quite sure what this means in the broader sense - can the new director/administrator roll back the sale (well, the utter fucking giveaway) of the land and associated assets? All I could infer is that the two arses can't direct or influence the companies or administration any more.

Sorry, I'm a bit of a duffer with legalese.

AFAIK, there are valid reasons assets can be spun off into a separate entity if administration looms. The most common being that the asset is security for a loan and will not go into the pool of assets to be divided up between the creditors. If assets are moved solely to try and remove them from the creditor asset pool the transactions are illegitimate and will be reversed.

Administrators can agree with secured creditors that all assets will be dealt with by the administrators as it often makes sense to bundle all the assets together, sell them as a bundle then sort out the secured creditors first.

[Torquemada 1420]

AFAIK, there are valid reasons assets can be spun off into a separate entity if administration looms. The most common being that the asset is security for a loan and will not go into the pool of assets to be divided up between the creditors. If assets are moved solely to try and remove them from the creditor asset pool the transactions are illegitimate and will be reversed.

.

Could be reversed. Doesn't happen as often as you'd hope.

[Torquemada 1420]

Meantime the Wasps sh*thshow continues unabated:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63155795

What the article does not say is what happens to Pests should this action occur? IIRC, one rule for being in the Prem is the club must have primary tenancy over its home ground?

Don't think that's a rule, since the likes of Irish don't have that I believe.

Hopefully it means investors will buy before administration, as after will means wasps are without the stadium, which is the draw in the first place.

I was quite sure that it was that rule which was used to prevent clubs being promoted in the past. Maybe it's been changed?

[Tichtheid]

Meantime the Wasps sh*thshow continues unabated:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63155795

What the article does not say is what happens to Pests should this action occur? IIRC, one rule for being in the Prem is the club must have primary tenancy over its home ground?

Don't think that's a rule, since the likes of Irish don't have that I believe.

Hopefully it means investors will buy before administration, as after will means wasps are without the stadium, which is the draw in the first place.

I was quite sure that it was that rule which was used to prevent clubs being promoted in the past. Maybe it's been changed?

I seem to remember that there were "minimum standards" requirements (capacity was one criterion, as was facilities iirc) which meant clubs in the past have not been able to be promoted. I just had a quick look around and there is a piece I found about law in sport and primary occupiers and third party owners and licenses and all kinds of groovy things, but to be honest I couldn't be arsed reading it, it's here if anyone can bring themselves to read it https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/ ... ial-issues

I also seem to remember that when London Scottish were in the ascendancy and looking for promotion, there was some sort of issue with Richmond, which as a club is the owner of the Athletic Ground at which both clubs play.

[Torquemada 1420]

Don't think that's a rule, since the likes of Irish don't have that I believe.

Hopefully it means investors will buy before administration, as after will means wasps are without the stadium, which is the draw in the first place.

I was quite sure that it was that rule which was used to prevent clubs being promoted in the past. Maybe it's been changed?

I seem to remember that there were "minimum standards" requirements (capacity was one criterion, as was facilities iirc) which meant clubs in the past have not been able to be promoted. I just had a quick look around and there is a piece I found about law in sport and primary occupiers and third party owners and licenses and all kinds of groovy things, but to be honest I couldn't be arsed reading it, it's here if anyone can bring themselves to read it https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/item/ ... ial-issues

I also seem to remember that when London Scottish were in the ascendancy and looking for promotion, there was some sort of issue with Richmond, which as a club is the owner of the Athletic Ground at which both clubs play.

I might take a look later if I have no grass to watch growing!

[Tichtheid]

Ah, here's something.

Ealing were prevented from promotion due to not having a ground capacity of 10 001. This requirement has been dropped to 5 000 initially with the requirement to up capacity later

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/pgb-stat ... emiership/

[SaintK]

Goodd luck Wsps fans if thiss happens!

[Hal Jordan]

Goodd luck Wsps fans if thiss happens!

A fate worse than death.

[sockwithaticket]

I know very little about him other than he's the Sports Direct guy and used to own a football club.

Why would him getting involved with Wasps be bad for us?

[Margin__Walker]

It's a lot better than a few of the other options to be fair.

[Torquemada 1420]

I know very little about him other than he's the Sports Direct guy and used to own a football club.

Why would him getting involved with Wasps be bad for us?

Curious too. Didn't he blow the lid on the fixing of prices of football shirts? I know it probably favoured his business to do so but I can't recall anything spivvy about him in the news.

[I like neeps]

I know very little about him other than he's the Sports Direct guy and used to own a football club.

Why would him getting involved with Wasps be bad for us?

Curious too. Didn't he blow the lid on the fixing of prices of football shirts? I know it probably favoured his business to do so but I can't recall anything spivvy about him in the news.

Mike Ashley is a spiv. Look at his workplace practices, gets I to bed with payday loan companies, bleeds every distressed asset until they're dry.

Funny though, gave Alan Pardew the toon job as he owed him a gambling debt (or so the sorry goes).

[Paddington Bear]

It's a lot better than a few of the other options to be fair.

Yep. Not an amazing bloke but has the cash and likes sports

[I like neeps]

It's a lot better than a few of the other options to be fair.

Yep. Not an amazing bloke but has the cash and likes sports

Does he like sports? Nothing he did at either Newcastle or Rangers suggests this is true.

He wanted Wasps as he wants Coventry City and the Casino if you're to believe Andy Goode on the rugby pod. I can't imagine him being at all interested in rugby, very little chance to turn a profit by investing the bare minimum in the squad and nothing in infrastructure unlike at NUFC.

[inactionman]

I'll never forgive what he did to Lillywhites just of Piccadilly Circus. Criminal.

[Kawazaki]

I know very little about him other than he's the Sports Direct guy and used to own a football club.

Why would him getting involved with Wasps be bad for us?

I don't think he'd be that bad at all. Newcastle United fans turned on him because he wouldn't piss £100m up the wall every year buying in players the fans had never heard of but the club was on it's knees when he bought it with huge debts and structural deficiencies. He paid off the debts, plugged the holes and started to run it as a business. The fans started calling him names, hounding him if he turned up at the stadium so he did what anyone else would do, he got pissed off at the ungrateful Geordie wankers, stopped attending the stadium and got disinterested. I don't like the tat that Ashley sells but the bloke is clearly a good businessman.

[SaintK]

I know very little about him other than he's the Sports Direct guy and used to own a football club.

Why would him getting involved with Wasps be bad for us?

I don't think he'd be that bad at all. Newcastle United fans turned on him because he wouldn't piss £100m up the wall every year buying in players the fans had never heard of but the club was on it's knees when he bought it with huge debts and structural deficiencies. He paid off the debts, plugged the holes and started to run it as a business. The fans started calling him names, hounding him if he turned up at the stadium so he did what anyone else would do, he got pissed off at the ungrateful Geordie wankers, stopped attending the stadium and got disinterested. I don't like the tat that Ashley sells but the bloke is clearly a good businessman.

He didn't buy Newcastle for his love of the club or the game for that matter. The same would apply to Wasps but on a smaller scale.
Basically, how much can I make out of this.

[sockwithaticket]

I know very little about him other than he's the Sports Direct guy and used to own a football club.

Why would him getting involved with Wasps be bad for us?

I don't think he'd be that bad at all. Newcastle United fans turned on him because he wouldn't piss £100m up the wall every year buying in players the fans had never heard of but the club was on it's knees when he bought it with huge debts and structural deficiencies. He paid off the debts, plugged the holes and started to run it as a business. The fans started calling him names, hounding him if he turned up at the stadium so he did what anyone else would do, he got pissed off at the ungrateful Geordie wankers, stopped attending the stadium and got disinterested. I don't like the tat that Ashley sells but the bloke is clearly a good businessman.

Ta.

Tbh, if the worst that could be said of him* is that he's unwilling to spaff the levels of money required by Prem football and is a bit unambitious for the club, but will sort out the finances and make the business more sustainable that's probably fine.

Pretty sure everyone involved with Wasps as an entity, if not perhaps all the fans, would take that over suffering Worcester's fate.

*Purely in terms of how he interacts with the club.

[Kawazaki]

I know very little about him other than he's the Sports Direct guy and used to own a football club.

Why would him getting involved with Wasps be bad for us?

I don't think he'd be that bad at all. Newcastle United fans turned on him because he wouldn't piss £100m up the wall every year buying in players the fans had never heard of but the club was on it's knees when he bought it with huge debts and structural deficiencies. He paid off the debts, plugged the holes and started to run it as a business. The fans started calling him names, hounding him if he turned up at the stadium so he did what anyone else would do, he got pissed off at the ungrateful Geordie wankers, stopped attending the stadium and got disinterested. I don't like the tat that Ashley sells but the bloke is clearly a good businessman.

He didn't buy Newcastle for his love of the club or the game for that matter. The same would apply to Wasps but on a smaller scale.
Basically, how much can I make out of this.

Newcastle were screwed when he bought the club. As for his reasons, really?! Think of who owns Newcastle now!!!

I couldn't tell you if Derek Richardson is a good businessman or not, whether he likes rugby or not. I know nothing about him other than he got a stadium, hotel, casino and conference centre in the middle of England for peanuts and it's gone tits up in less than 10 years.

[geordie_6]

He is not well liked up here, but if the option is the FCB or administration and the death of your club, FCB would be the lesser of those two evils.

He would get the most out of the assets available at the stadium etc, but not sure how much of that would be plugged back in.

It's possible that he would look to but cheap, save the club and then sell on, but again that is likely a better option than doing a Worcester.

[Brazil]

He is not well liked up here, but if the option is the FCB or administration and the death of your club, FCB would be the lesser of those two evils.

He would get the most out of the assets available at the stadium etc, but not sure how much of that would be plugged back in.

It's possible that he would look to but cheap, save the club and then sell on, but again that is likely a better option than doing a Worcester.

OK, what does the "C" stand for in FCB?

Most of my knowledge about him comes from an article he* wrote in Viz which included the line "fuck knows how fat I am now"...


*probably not him really, come to think of it.

[Torquemada 1420]

I know very little about him other than he's the Sports Direct guy and used to own a football club.

Why would him getting involved with Wasps be bad for us?

Curious too. Didn't he blow the lid on the fixing of prices of football shirts? I know it probably favoured his business to do so but I can't recall anything spivvy about him in the news.

Mike Ashley is a spiv. Look at his workplace practices, gets I to bed with payday loan companies, bleeds every distressed asset until they're dry.

Funny though, gave Alan Pardew the toon job as he owed him a gambling debt (or so the sorry goes).

Like I said. Not someone I've paid attention to. And I guess it shows!

[geordie_6]

He is not well liked up here, but if the option is the FCB or administration and the death of your club, FCB would be the lesser of those two evils.

He would get the most out of the assets available at the stadium etc, but not sure how much of that would be plugged back in.

It's possible that he would look to but cheap, save the club and then sell on, but again that is likely a better option than doing a Worcester.

OK, what does the "C" stand for in FCB?

Most of my knowledge about him comes from an article he* wrote in Viz which included the line "fuck knows how fat I am now"...


*probably not him really, come to think of it.

Fat Cockney Bastard, which was one of the politer names fans used for him.

[fishfoodie]

I don't think he'd be that bad at all. Newcastle United fans turned on him because he wouldn't piss £100m up the wall every year buying in players the fans had never heard of but the club was on it's knees when he bought it with huge debts and structural deficiencies. He paid off the debts, plugged the holes and started to run it as a business. The fans started calling him names, hounding him if he turned up at the stadium so he did what anyone else would do, he got pissed off at the ungrateful Geordie wankers, stopped attending the stadium and got disinterested. I don't like the tat that Ashley sells but the bloke is clearly a good businessman.

He didn't buy Newcastle for his love of the club or the game for that matter. The same would apply to Wasps but on a smaller scale.
Basically, how much can I make out of this.

Newcastle were screwed when he bought the club. As for his reasons, really?! Think of who owns Newcastle now!!!

I couldn't tell you if Derek Richardson is a good businessman or not, whether he likes rugby or not. I know nothing about him other than he got a stadium, hotel, casino and conference centre in the middle of England for peanuts and it's gone tits up in less than 10 years.

Newcastle weren't exactly screwed, they were still in the top tier, & they had a huge stadium, & full houses at every home game, & half of Newcastle religiously bought the new kit replicas every season. The main asset they had was the TV money, & sponsorship that came with being in the Premiership !

WASPs doesn't have the cash flow of Rangers, let alone Newcastle, & so you have to ask what he gets out of the ownership ?

[Kawazaki]

Newcastle weren't exactly screwed, they were still in the top tier, & they had a huge stadium, & full houses at every home game, & half of Newcastle religiously bought the new kit replicas every season. The main asset they had was the TV money, & sponsorship that came with being in the Premiership !

WASPs doesn't have the cash flow of Rangers, let alone Newcastle, & so you have to ask what he gets out of the ownership ?

Weren't screwed?!

He paid £134m - in 2007 - for a club that he didn't know was £100m in debt! His fault for not doing any due diligence and taking the word of Freddy Shepherd, a man who seriously ripped off all Geordie fans but because 'he's one of their own' gets a free pass.

I suspect Ashley would see the whole stadium/hotel/casino/conference centre as an attractive proposition. Having a football and rugby team as tenants makes sense. I think he's got his main distribution centre not too far from there as well. It's pretty much bang in the middle of the country.

[I like neeps]

I know very little about him other than he's the Sports Direct guy and used to own a football club.

Why would him getting involved with Wasps be bad for us?

I don't think he'd be that bad at all. Newcastle United fans turned on him because he wouldn't piss £100m up the wall every year buying in players the fans had never heard of but the club was on it's knees when he bought it with huge debts and structural deficiencies. He paid off the debts, plugged the holes and started to run it as a business. The fans started calling him names, hounding him if he turned up at the stadium so he did what anyone else would do, he got pissed off at the ungrateful Geordie wankers, stopped attending the stadium and got disinterested. I don't like the tat that Ashley sells but the bloke is clearly a good businessman.

Ta.

Tbh, if the worst that could be said of him* is that he's unwilling to spaff the levels of money required by Prem football and is a bit unambitious for the club, but will sort out the finances and make the business more sustainable that's probably fine.

Pretty sure everyone involved with Wasps as an entity, if not perhaps all the fans, would take that over suffering Worcester's fate.

*Purely in terms of how he interacts with the club.

Not true, he made absolutely no investment in the infrastructure of Newcastle e.g. youth facilities and training facilities. Newcastle United have dreadful infrastructure as he never invested anything in it and that's something the Saudis pledged to fix.

Also he can't afford to alienate the fanbase as he did at Newcastle. Having lived in the city during the Ashley era even if the hardcore stopped turning up as much there's a reliable stream of tourists, students, casual fans etc. If wasps fans got fed up of him at a fraction of the percentage Newcastle fans did the club will go bust.

[Kawazaki]

I don't think he'd be that bad at all. Newcastle United fans turned on him because he wouldn't piss £100m up the wall every year buying in players the fans had never heard of but the club was on it's knees when he bought it with huge debts and structural deficiencies. He paid off the debts, plugged the holes and started to run it as a business. The fans started calling him names, hounding him if he turned up at the stadium so he did what anyone else would do, he got pissed off at the ungrateful Geordie wankers, stopped attending the stadium and got disinterested. I don't like the tat that Ashley sells but the bloke is clearly a good businessman.

Ta.

Tbh, if the worst that could be said of him* is that he's unwilling to spaff the levels of money required by Prem football and is a bit unambitious for the club, but will sort out the finances and make the business more sustainable that's probably fine.

Pretty sure everyone involved with Wasps as an entity, if not perhaps all the fans, would take that over suffering Worcester's fate.

*Purely in terms of how he interacts with the club.

Not true, he made absolutely no investment in the infrastructure of Newcastle e.g. youth facilities and training facilities. Newcastle United have dreadful infrastructure as he never invested anything in it and that's something the Saudis pledged to fix.

He paid off the £100m debt. Fans don't see that of course but he cleared it. I think once the abuse started, he had the same kind of reaction to them as you and I would have, he likely thought, 'fuck you'. He was wealthy enough to keep it ticking over with the minimum investment waiting until somebody was willing to cover his total losses. And even at £300m, I think that only just about washed his face after 14 years.

[Kawazaki]

Tom Howe (winger) and Andrew Kitchener (lock) have signed for Saracens from Worcester on 3-month contacts.

[I like neeps]

Ta.

Tbh, if the worst that could be said of him* is that he's unwilling to spaff the levels of money required by Prem football and is a bit unambitious for the club, but will sort out the finances and make the business more sustainable that's probably fine.

Pretty sure everyone involved with Wasps as an entity, if not perhaps all the fans, would take that over suffering Worcester's fate.

*Purely in terms of how he interacts with the club.

Not true, he made absolutely no investment in the infrastructure of Newcastle e.g. youth facilities and training facilities. Newcastle United have dreadful infrastructure as he never invested anything in it and that's something the Saudis pledged to fix.

He paid off the £100m debt. Fans don't see that of course but he cleared it. I think once the abuse started, he had the same kind of reaction to them as you and I would have, he likely thought, 'fuck you'. He was wealthy enough to keep it ticking over with the minimum investment waiting until somebody was willing to cover his total losses. And even at £300m, I think that only just about washed his face after 14 years.

Mike Ashley didn't become a billionaire whose entire modus operandi is squeezing every single penny out of low cost clothing and taking over distressed assets by being someone who cared at all what people think. The Newcastle fans hating him is irrelevant. He had no interest in the club as another other than a vehicle for money making.

And he will have made money, a 100m loan of which 30m he'd already paid back to himself from running Newcastle as profitable for most of his time there. And there's the unknowable amount he made on turning the club into a vassal for Sports Direct advertising.

His success at Newcastle was mainly the top6 lifting all boats in England. Someone like him will bankrupt a rugby club in no time at all because you can't rely on a huge fanbase and other clubs generating TV revenue.

[Kawazaki]

I've got news for you, no billionaires give a toss especially ones from ruling families of middle-east oil states guilty of appalling human rights atrocities. But hey, they have far more billions than a Brit who makes cheap tat to flog in warehouse stores so we don't really care as long as the money comes in.

[fishfoodie]

He paid off the £100m debt.

£100m of debt would make Newcastle probably one of the most financially viable teams in the league, let alone the Premiership !

What's their annual wages bill ?

[SaintK]

Tom Howe (winger) and Andrew Kitchener (lock) have signed for Saracens from Worcester on 3-month contacts.

Perhaps this could be a "Swinson" moment for Kitchener, he has never fully realised the full potential he showed as an U20?

[I like neeps]

I've got news for you, no billionaires give a toss especially ones from ruling families of middle-east oil states guilty of appalling human rights atrocities. But hey, they have far more billions than a Brit who makes cheap tat to flog in warehouse stores so we don't really care as long as the money comes in.

Where did I say the Saudis care? If Newcastle fans started singing about Yemen or Khasoggi they'd be far more upset than Ashley ever was. Because they're buying Newcastle for reputation, not to squeeze every merch and TV deal penny from the club.

[Tichtheid]

Tom Howe (winger) and Andrew Kitchener (lock) have signed for Saracens from Worcester on 3-month contacts.

Perhaps this could be a "Swinson" moment for Kitchener, he has never fully realised the full potential he showed as an U20?

Swinson did okay before he went to Saracens, in 137 appearances he helped Glasgow become champions and twice runner-up, plus he won 38 caps for Scotland.

He was good at Sarries, no doubt, but it wasn't like he was under-achieving beforehand.

[JM2K6]

Tom Howe (winger) and Andrew Kitchener (lock) have signed for Saracens from Worcester on 3-month contacts.

Perhaps this could be a "Swinson" moment for Kitchener, he has never fully realised the full potential he showed as an U20?

Swinson did okay before he went to Saracens, in 137 appearances he helped Glasgow become champions and twice runner-up, plus he won 38 caps for Scotland.

He was good at Sarries, no doubt, but it wasn't like he was under-achieving beforehand.

Yes, very odd comment indeed! They signed a very experienced international who then played like it.


In other news, Dallaglio's "Wasps should be treated differently because they won things 15 years ago" argument on BT has not earned him or the club any sympathy, strangely...

[SaintK]

Tom Howe (winger) and Andrew Kitchener (lock) have signed for Saracens from Worcester on 3-month contacts.

Perhaps this could be a "Swinson" moment for Kitchener, he has never fully realised the full potential he showed as an U20?

Swinson did okay before he went to Saracens, in 137 appearances he helped Glasgow become champions and twice runner-up, plus he won 38 caps for Scotland.

He was good at Sarries, no doubt, but it wasn't like he was under-achieving beforehand.

Poorly worded from me.
Kitchener is signing a short term injury cover contract as Swinson did and perhaps he could turn it into a longer term contract as Swinson did. Though as you rightly say, Swinson already had a pretty strong CV before he signed for Sarries

[Paddington Bear]

Not true, he made absolutely no investment in the infrastructure of Newcastle e.g. youth facilities and training facilities. Newcastle United have dreadful infrastructure as he never invested anything in it and that's something the Saudis pledged to fix.

He paid off the £100m debt. Fans don't see that of course but he cleared it. I think once the abuse started, he had the same kind of reaction to them as you and I would have, he likely thought, 'fuck you'. He was wealthy enough to keep it ticking over with the minimum investment waiting until somebody was willing to cover his total losses. And even at £300m, I think that only just about washed his face after 14 years.

Mike Ashley didn't become a billionaire whose entire modus operandi is squeezing every single penny out of low cost clothing and taking over distressed assets by being someone who cared at all what people think. The Newcastle fans hating him is irrelevant. He had no interest in the club as another other than a vehicle for money making.

And he will have made money, a 100m loan of which 30m he'd already paid back to himself from running Newcastle as profitable for most of his time there. And there's the unknowable amount he made on turning the club into a vassal for Sports Direct advertising.

His success at Newcastle was mainly the top6 lifting all boats in England. Someone like him will bankrupt a rugby club in no time at all because you can't rely on a huge fanbase and other clubs generating TV revenue.

If you've got a better alternative I'm all ears, but looks like he's the only thing standing between Wasps and going under