Worcester and Wasps GONE?

[weegie01]

It was obviously coming, but even confirmation of the expected is a bit of a gut punch. I've been supporting the club for half my life and feel pretty bereft at the prospect of us folding. Can only imagine what a sickener it is for all the staff to suddenly be out of work like that, presumably having begun the season not expecting it to go differently to any other.

A friend's son works for Wasps. From where they were at the start of the season, this came out of the blue, and even with the Worcester debacle there was a sense of 'this can't be happening to a club like us'.

[Kawazaki]

Launchbury to Quins, apparently

Danny Care said he was in touch with Launchbury and explained that he turned down loads of great offers from England and overseas because his contract ended last season but he signed an extension to stay with Wasps. No doubt Wasps told him they were signing Vincent Koch.

This is really not good.

[weegie01]

Launchbury to Quins, apparently

Danny Care said he was in touch with Launchbury and explained that he turned down loads of great offers from England and overseas because his contract ended last season but he signed an extension to stay with Wasps. No doubt Wasps told him they were signing Vincent Koch.

This is really not good.

Charitably, it may be more hubris rather than anything else. If the management assumed they could re-finance the bond they would not foresee any ongoing issues.

[SaintK]

Launchbury to Quins, apparently

This is what our resident reporter with his ear to the ground in the other place reckons

Rumoured Wasps player futures from within club.

Nizam- Bulls
Koch - Bulls
Frosty- Cornish Pirates
T Willis- Ulster
Odendaal- GLouc (believe this is already done due to Glous need to cover Atkinson injury)
Atkinson- 3 options- Quins, Glous, Tigers, favours Tigers.
Barbearry- Bath
Umaga- URC (not sure)
Launchers- Quins
GabeO - Poss Coventry or Saints

I'd take either Ogre or Frost to Saints as a back up to Matavesi as Hayward seems to get injured every other match nowadays.
Bassett would be a good signing as well. A real 100%er

[JM2K6]

They all make sense. It will be a shame to lose Tom Willis to Ulster, but he strikes me as the sort of player who'd fit in brilliantly there and become a bit of a legend. Just the sort of character and talent that they really take to.

[Hal Jordan]

Launchbury to Quins, apparently

He can reminisce about the good old days with his Quins Academy pal, Charlie Matthews.

[SaintK]

Launchbury to Quins, apparently

He can reminisce about the good old days with his Quins Academy pal, Charlie Matthews.

He'd have to do it by phone. Matthews is in Japan?

[JM2K6]

Launchbury to Quins, apparently

He can reminisce about the good old days with his Quins Academy pal, Charlie Matthews.

He'd have to do it by phone. Matthews is in Japan?

That'll come as news to Quins, given how often he's played for us this season.

[Happyhooker]

He can reminisce about the good old days with his Quins Academy pal, Charlie Matthews.

He'd have to do it by phone. Matthews is in Japan?

That'll come as news to Quins, given how often he's played for us this season.

unseen work?

[JM2K6]

He'd have to do it by phone. Matthews is in Japan?

That'll come as news to Quins, given how often he's played for us this season.

unseen work?

Well, it was mostly in the Premiership cup, so almost literally given the lack of coverage...

[SaintK]

He can reminisce about the good old days with his Quins Academy pal, Charlie Matthews.

He'd have to do it by phone. Matthews is in Japan?

That'll come as news to Quins, given how often he's played for us this season.

didn't know he was back

[Torquemada 1420]

Just to echo others' comments: no-one wants to see a club fold in any circumstances. Well, except maybe those cheating b*st*rds Sarries.

Can only hope this reality check is just that for the game.

[Niegs]

English rugby won’t be the same without them. Hopefully there will be a resolution/phoenix before too long

Your statement had me wondering what Wasps FC are up to ... in Counties 2 with London Scots' and Saracens' amateurs.

Let's say someone wanted to get them back into it? I reckon anyone with ambitions would have to start them off again at the bottom, as I think happened to Richmond?

... just read it took them 15 years to get into the Championship, from which they suffered one relegation, but bounced back into it the next year, where them and old chums London Scots sit in the bottom three at the moment.

I can't see Wasps coming back unless some rules are bent. I also hear the women are holding on at the moment, tying themselves to Wasps FC and looking for new funding sources.

[sockwithaticket]

A small chink of positivity for Wasps' players

The Elite Performance and Innovation Centre (EPIC) in Henley-in-Arden, which is owned by Wasps chief operating officer Chris Holland, has remained open and insured for players to train and stay fit while work continues behind the scenes for a buyer for the rugby club.

Unlike Worcester, they at least have somewhere they can train and stay in rugby shape while trying to find a contract elsewhere. It's not much, but you'd think it'll be easier to put yourself forward for anything that comes up, be it medical joker or whatever, if you're conditioned and ready to go.

[Uncle fester]

Hope Munster sign John Ryan back. Should never have let him go while keeping Archer.

[Kawazaki]

Just to echo others' comments: no-one wants to see a club fold in any circumstances. Well, except maybe those cheating b*st*rds Sarries.

Can only hope this reality check is just that for the game.

Twat

[SaintK]

Just to echo others' comments: no-one wants to see a club fold in any circumstances. Well, except maybe those cheating b*st*rds Sarries.

Can only hope this reality check is just that for the game.

Twat

Quite
Most rugby folk appear to have moved on by now

[Margin__Walker]

Rugby Pod is an interesting listen this week on the Wasps saga.

There's an interview with Stephen Vaughan (CEO). He's fairly diplomatic, but clearly isn't at all impressed with Richardson and the path that led them to the debt mountain that sunk them.

Post admin, sounds like there's a lot of interest in the stadium. Considerably less in the rugby team.

[JM2K6]

Just to echo others' comments: no-one wants to see a club fold in any circumstances. Well, except maybe those cheating b*st*rds Sarries.

Can only hope this reality check is just that for the game.

Twat

Quite
Most rugby folk appear to have moved on by now

Nah - especially not now, with the impact of the higher salary cap and inflated wages there for all to see

[Kawazaki]

Twat

Quite
Most rugby folk appear to have moved on by now

Nah - especially not now, with the impact of the higher salary cap and inflated wages there for all to see

Even the CEO of Wasps said Saracens had bugger all to do with Wasps demise.

But do carry on, you know better.

[sockwithaticket]

Rugby Pod is an interesting listen this week on the Wasps saga.

There's an interview with Stephen Vaughan (CEO). He's fairly diplomatic, but clearly isn't at all impressed with Richardson and the path that led them to the debt mountain that sunk them.

Post admin, sounds like there's a lot of interest in the stadium. Considerably less in the rugby team.

Really interesting interview. Of possible interest even for those who don't care about Wasps in particular as he talks generally about governance of the game too.

Hamilton's weird tangent after the interview where he decided to endlessly repeat that Saracens were only done for over-valuing Maro Itoje's image rights reminded me why I don't generally bother with this podcast.

[sockwithaticket]

Quite
Most rugby folk appear to have moved on by now

Nah - especially not now, with the impact of the higher salary cap and inflated wages there for all to see

Even the CEO of Wasps said Saracens had bugger all to do with Wasps demise.

But do carry on, you know better.

He wasn't quite that emphatic, he was diplomatic and said that it's difficult to say how much of an inflationary effect Saracens had.

[Kawazaki]

Nah - especially not now, with the impact of the higher salary cap and inflated wages there for all to see

Even the CEO of Wasps said Saracens had bugger all to do with Wasps demise.

But do carry on, you know better.

He wasn't quite that emphatic, he was diplomatic and said that it's difficult to say how much of an inflationary effect Saracens had.

Did you listen to what he said? Wasps were putting everything on credit cards since 2014. The introduction of Saracens as a causal ingredient to the demise of Wasps was a pointless distraction by a moron likely initiated by Goode who wrote an article blaming Saracens last week in RugbyPass. Richardson made sure he got his money out and then left Wasps well and truly in the shitter. Wasps only have themselves to blame.

[sockwithaticket]

Yes I did listen. He very much laid out that Wasps finances were a disaster, such that measures and efforts which would have put other clubs in great standing were insufficient to make a difference for Wasps. However, when specifically asked a question about Saracens impact by no means did he answer that they had bugger all impact (or words to that effect), simply that it's difficult to say. It is neither a condemnatory, nor an exculpatory response; merely an equivocal "don't want to go there" one.

[JM2K6]

It's far from moronic to point out the pro game was in a much healthier state in 2014 before a couple of clubs decided to wage war on the others, leading to the salary cap getting pushed up, clubs losing money trying to compete, and one club in particular warping the market. The effect is very clear (and who gives a fuck what Foode says?) and you can draw a direct line from the changes to the salary to the current piss-poor finances of nearly every club.

It's not just Wasps and Worcs. Almost the entire league is in a shit financial state. The financial arms race has ruined the hard fought gains of sides that had crawled towards breaking even (or even profitability, in some cases).

[petej]

It's far from moronic to point out the pro game was in a much healthier state in 2014 before a couple of clubs decided to wage war on the others, leading to the salary cap getting pushed up, clubs losing money trying to compete, and one club in particular warping the market. The effect is very clear (and who gives a fuck what Foode says?) and you can draw a direct line from the changes to the salary to the current piss-poor finances of nearly every club.

It's not just Wasps and Worcs. Almost the entire league is in a shit financial state. The financial arms race has ruined the hard fought gains of sides that had crawled towards breaking even (or even profitability, in some cases).

Sarries is definitely a factor, along with COVID and others. Most clubs can't afford to write off £50+ million.

[Kawazaki]

It's far from moronic to point out the pro game was in a much healthier state in 2014 before a couple of clubs decided to wage war on the others, leading to the salary cap getting pushed up, clubs losing money trying to compete, and one club in particular warping the market. The effect is very clear (and who gives a fuck what Foode says?) and you can draw a direct line from the changes to the salary to the current piss-poor finances of nearly every club.

It's not just Wasps and Worcs. Almost the entire league is in a shit financial state. The financial arms race has ruined the hard fought gains of sides that had crawled towards breaking even (or even profitability, in some cases).

It's almost as if the European Champions Cup doesn't exist. It never seems to get a mention which is odd given Saracens nearly always are whenever finances are discussed. Whatever you think Saracens were spending (and invariably another few £million are added with each retelling), the French and Irish teams were spending multiples more.

Wasps were doomed regardless of what anyone else was doing. And it's worth noting that they hired a player the calibre of Vincent Koch away from Saracens with an offer at least £100k per year more than Saracens could offer as recently as just 11 months ago. All of it bought on the never-never like they'd been doing for the previous 8 years.

To be honest, Richardson makes the chancers at Worcester look small fry.

[JM2K6]

The ECC doesn't get mentioned because it's baked into the reasoning behind Saracens' actions. I don't know why you think it's relevant that other countries had teams able to legally spend more. We aren't those countries.

The Koch signing is interesting. You've mentioned it several times, seemingly in disbelief that anyone would or could out bid Saracens. Given that Saracens were in the process of trying to visibly make their squad more legal, and that it was reported they were offering lower wages to several big players, I don't think it's all that noteworthy that Wasps signed him. I don't know where the 100k figure came from but given it was a signing made with the 5m cap in mind I don't think it's the smoking gun you think it is.

And, again, it's not just Wasps and Worcs. I'm not arguing that Wasps were well managed. This is a topic that hasn't just sprung up out of nowhere, though - it's been a problem since well before Covid that the financial health of the league was bad and the direction of travel was disturbing, and that there was a clear starting point.

[Kawazaki]

Koch is noteworthy because Wasps were clearly ignoring their financial plight right to the end. It's not just reckless, it's dishonest and has led to a top player leaving a club and likely the league off the back of a promise that could never have been kept. Saracens could afford to keep Koch within the lower cap. That's the point.

[JM2K6]

Saracens decided they couldn't. Saracens decided that Koch wasn't worth keeping on comparable wages.

Unless I've missed some information about Wasps building a squad this season with wages over the 5m salary cap, there was nothing stopping any other team offering Koch what Wasps offered under the cap. Saracens made a financial decision that I appreciate seems alien to you but is a fact of life for the other clubs every season.

[Kawazaki]

Saracens decided they couldn't. Saracens decided that Koch wasn't worth keeping on comparable wages.

Unless I've missed some information about Wasps building a squad this season with wages over the 5m salary cap, there was nothing stopping any other team offering Koch what Wasps offered under the cap. Saracens made a financial decision that I appreciate seems alien to you but is a fact of life for the other clubs every season.

Wasps offered a player money they knew they had no hope of being able to pay. That fact is just flying over your head regardless of where they were recruiting the player from.

[sockwithaticket]

I don't think that's fair. When the signing was announced much earlier in the year would anyone on the rugby side really have thought they wouldn't be able to carry on as they had?

Now maybe they had an idea, much later on, over the summer perhaps, that things were starting to catch up with them, but it's been clear that they've held out hope for additional finance and have been entertaining lots of talks with various parties. They could well have genuinely thought they were going to sort everything out in time. The BBC pod spoke to one of the administrators who was actually pretty positive about Wasps and the interest in them, it;s just that things weren't happening quickly enough.


One of the really heartbreaking things to come out of Vaughan's interview is that before covid they were actually starting to make a small profit some months.

[Kawazaki]

One of the really heartbreaking things to come out of Vaughan's interview is that before covid they were actually starting to make a small profit some months.

You forgot to mention that Vaughan added the comment that it made absolutely no difference to the finances of the club no matter how much they cut their costs because the debt interest on the bond was so high.

The comment that over 40% of the money raised by the bond was paid to Richardson is something largely being ignored as well.

[sockwithaticket]

One of the really heartbreaking things to come out of Vaughan's interview is that before covid they were actually starting to make a small profit some months.

You forgot to mention that Vaughan added the comment that it made absolutely no difference to the finances of the club no matter how much they cut their costs because the debt interest on the bond was so high.

The comment that over 40% of the money raised by the bond was paid to Richardson is something largely being ignored as well.

I acknowledged a few comments ago that he said a lot of what he did would have put other clubs in great stead, but couldn't make a difference to Wasps. Why I say that's heartbreaking is, even if it weren't able to put a dent in the debt at that time, it showed that there was potential there to right the business model somewhat and who knows where it could have gone if it weren't so brutally interrupted. It probably wasn't going to make a huge difference imminently, but it may well have stopped us getting to this point.

[Kawazaki]

Wasps were offered a 30,000+ capacity modern stadium, casino, hotel and conference centre for about £20m in 2013/14. It was a fucking steal!

It's tragic that they screwed it up so badly. Richardson thought borrowing £35m at 8.5% interest to fund the purchase was a better route than just using banks at a time with historically low interest rates. Well we know the reason now, he skimmed a huge chunk off to pay himself back, something I'd suggest would have been impossible to do if he had to deal with the governance of using a bank to raise the money.

Wasps should be rolling in it. Stinking rich.

[JM2K6]

Saracens decided they couldn't. Saracens decided that Koch wasn't worth keeping on comparable wages.

Unless I've missed some information about Wasps building a squad this season with wages over the 5m salary cap, there was nothing stopping any other team offering Koch what Wasps offered under the cap. Saracens made a financial decision that I appreciate seems alien to you but is a fact of life for the other clubs every season.

Wasps offered a player money they knew they had no hope of being able to pay. That fact is just flying over your head regardless of where they were recruiting the player from.

I don't know if Wasps knew they were going to go bust. You said "Saracens could afford to keep Koch within the lower cap. That's the point." - but there's no proof that they could. We simply don't know what Koch was asking for. It might well have been the case that Sarries told him that they could only offer him x and that he was never going to accept anything near that amount.

You have to understand that I am not criticising Saracens over Koch, or defending Wasps for their club going bust. But it's entirely possible that when Wasps went in for Koch almost a year ago that they had no idea of the reckoning that awaited them. It's extremely unlikely they signed him under false pretences. And Koch is a hell of a player; given he was available I very much doubt other sides wouldn't have been willing to offer similar money, and I very much doubt Saracens would've behaved any differently. Koch would still have left the club and signed for someone else under the cap.

Wasps lost some big wage players at the end of the season. Nothing they did with their recruitment was out of the ordinary. By focusing on the player who left Saracens you're just coming across as being a bit bitter about Saracens losing him, rather than any genuine concern for the plight of all the Wasps players. Including their other signings like John Ryan, Odendaal, Haydon-Wood, etc.

[Paddington Bear]

I'd imagine the coaching staff's dialogue went something like 'we could really use a gun new prop, do we have the budget?' and when the Board said yes they thought no more about it, that isn't their job.

[JM2K6]

I'd imagine the coaching staff's dialogue went something like 'we could really use a gun new prop, do we have the budget?' and when the Board said yes they thought no more about it, that isn't their job.

Oh for sure - I accept that what Toga is saying is that someone at the top made the decision to continue recruiting as normal. Which at the time might well have made sense. And let's be honest, the accusation that they knew they wouldn't be able to pay makes Koch's plight no worse than literally all the other players who have suffered as a result. He'll have no shortage of suitors in world rugby.

[Kawazaki]

Saracens decided they couldn't. Saracens decided that Koch wasn't worth keeping on comparable wages.

Unless I've missed some information about Wasps building a squad this season with wages over the 5m salary cap, there was nothing stopping any other team offering Koch what Wasps offered under the cap. Saracens made a financial decision that I appreciate seems alien to you but is a fact of life for the other clubs every season.

Wasps offered a player money they knew they had no hope of being able to pay. That fact is just flying over your head regardless of where they were recruiting the player from.

I don't know if Wasps knew they were going to go bust. You said "Saracens could afford to keep Koch within the lower cap. That's the point." - but there's no proof that they could. We simply don't know what Koch was asking for. It might well have been the case that Sarries told him that they could only offer him x and that he was never going to accept anything near that amount.

You have to understand that I am not criticising Saracens over Koch, or defending Wasps for their club going bust. But it's entirely possible that when Wasps went in for Koch almost a year ago that they had no idea of the reckoning that awaited them. It's extremely unlikely they signed him under false pretences. And Koch is a hell of a player; given he was available I very much doubt other sides wouldn't have been willing to offer similar money, and I very much doubt Saracens would've behaved any differently. Koch would still have left the club and signed for someone else under the cap.

Wasps lost some big wage players at the end of the season. Nothing they did with their recruitment was out of the ordinary. By focusing on the player who left Saracens you're just coming across as being a bit bitter about Saracens losing him, rather than any genuine concern for the plight of all the Wasps players. Including their other signings like John Ryan, Odendaal, Haydon-Wood, etc.

If I supported a club that John Ryan, Odendaal and Haydon-Wood came from then I'd likely refer to them. It's quite normal for people to reference and frame events that impact or relate to things that they have some investment in, be it real or emotional.

The figure I heard was that Saracens couldn't get anywhere near the Wasps offer which was circa £100k a year more. It's naive in the extreme given what we know that Wasps weren't aware of the parlous condition of their finances when they made that offer to Koch. Of course you might be arguing in bad faith because it's Saracens and you're a bitter Quins fan. I hope not but I suspect that's nearer the truth.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's not like Sarries finances are secure, so...