he could pretend to not be found out by playing a different 9, 11 and 14.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:38 pmJM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:21 pm Eddie Jones.
“[In 2019] we didn’t have the number of red and yellow cards we do now. If you look at how the game is going, that is only going to increase,” said Jones. “And the care for the players in terms of head injuries is only going to increase. We don’t know where it is going to end. Whereas the game up to 2019 was much more settled. The world was more settled. You look at BBC News, mortgage rates are going up, unemployment is going to double, TMOs are going to become more powerful … it is all on the BBC, you just have to watch it every day"
Jones is smart enough to know he's being found out.
The Official English Rugby Thread
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WTF is he on about? The cost of living crisis, the climate crisis, chip shortage and war in Ukraine are empowering the TMO?JM2K6 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 5:21 pm Eddie Jones.
“[In 2019] we didn’t have the number of red and yellow cards we do now. If you look at how the game is going, that is only going to increase,” said Jones. “And the care for the players in terms of head injuries is only going to increase. We don’t know where it is going to end. Whereas the game up to 2019 was much more settled. The world was more settled. You look at BBC News, mortgage rates are going up, unemployment is going to double, TMOs are going to become more powerful … it is all on the BBC, you just have to watch it every day"
He sounds like he's suffered a head injury himself.
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Really unsure what to expect from this set of four matches. Three objectively winnable games and then a potentially tired Springboks to finish up, equally I don't think any of the four sides are coming to HQ at all worried about us.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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Meanwhile I've been watching the highlights of the '06 loss. Not sure why I did that.
Sean Perry I assume won his England caps in a charity auction, Pichot made him his bitch in a manner that was basically hilarious. And our handling, my God. How bad was that side?
Excellent tries from Sackey and Balshaw, which I'd completely forgotten about, and tonnes of booing of kickers from the crowd which surprised me a bit.
Sean Perry I assume won his England caps in a charity auction, Pichot made him his bitch in a manner that was basically hilarious. And our handling, my God. How bad was that side?
Excellent tries from Sackey and Balshaw, which I'd completely forgotten about, and tonnes of booing of kickers from the crowd which surprised me a bit.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Don't remind me; I was unfortunate enough to be there.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:33 pm Meanwhile I've been watching the highlights of the '06 loss. Not sure why I did that.
Sean Perry I assume won his England caps in a charity auction, Pichot made him his bitch in a manner that was basically hilarious. And our handling, my God. How bad was that side?
Excellent tries from Sackey and Balshaw, which I'd completely forgotten about, and tonnes of booing of kickers from the crowd which surprised me a bit.
England were so bad that by the end we wanted Argentina to win because it would mean so much to them, and frankly it would have been a travesty if England had won.
Likewise, a contender for the worst performance I have ever seenLobby wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:50 pmDon't remind me; I was unfortunate enough to be there.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:33 pm Meanwhile I've been watching the highlights of the '06 loss. Not sure why I did that.
Sean Perry I assume won his England caps in a charity auction, Pichot made him his bitch in a manner that was basically hilarious. And our handling, my God. How bad was that side?
Excellent tries from Sackey and Balshaw, which I'd completely forgotten about, and tonnes of booing of kickers from the crowd which surprised me a bit.
England were so bad that by the end we wanted Argentina to win because it would mean so much to them, and frankly it would have been a travesty if England had won.
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:33 pm Meanwhile I've been watching the highlights of the '06 loss. Not sure why I did that.
Sean Perry I assume won his England caps in a charity auction, Pichot made him his bitch in a manner that was basically hilarious. And our handling, my God. How bad was that side?
Excellent tries from Sackey and Balshaw, which I'd completely forgotten about, and tonnes of booing of kickers from the crowd which surprised me a bit.
England coaches haven't got any better at selecting scrumhalves have they.
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Now, when you say highlights...Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 12:33 pm Meanwhile I've been watching the highlights of the '06 loss. Not sure why I did that.
Sean Perry I assume won his England caps in a charity auction, Pichot made him his bitch in a manner that was basically hilarious. And our handling, my God. How bad was that side?
Excellent tries from Sackey and Balshaw, which I'd completely forgotten about, and tonnes of booing of kickers from the crowd which surprised me a bit.
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In any sane set up that would be Youngs’ final cap. That was beyond embarrassing from him today. Would there be a worse English 9 in the prem to start?
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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Him and Nowell, he is absolutely busted as a Test player. And the fucking lunacy of picking a lock at 6, and a 6-2 bench.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:16 pm In any sane set up that would be Youngs’ final cap. That was beyond embarrassing from him today. Would there be a worse English 9 in the prem to start?
But Jones will probably drop Coles, who I thought had a decent game, rotate JVP off the bench and go Farrell-Tuilagi-Slade in midfield.
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I can see Japan scoring about 30 points in penalties next week as they run a pack full of idiots ragged
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
100% this, I hate 6-2 split on the bench but if you are going to do then accept the SA way and empty the bench by 55-60 mins
As a Scot I am not gloating but I cannot for the life of me understand Jones's selections. He has a wealth of players to pick from and some great young talent, however I just hope he is still in post come the 6Ns and keeps going with his selection criteria! Some questions:
- Why play 3 2nd row forwards with the talent you guys have in the back row? With Itoji and Big Billy at 6 and 8 your back row was slower than watching ice cream melt!
- Hill is a big waste of space in the boiler house and Itoji and the new guy Coles should have played at lock.
- Big Billy offers little at 8 apart from the odd carry into the tackle and I felt sorry for Curry, who did his best, as the only true back rower in the team.
- Why does Mako keep getting picked for the bench when everyone knows he is a weak scrummager? He got trashed when he came on, he doesn't even offer a lot in the loose now.
- Youngs is glacier and slows the team down at 9. He lost his pace and pass about 5 years ago and decision making is awful. Again you have a number of young guns at 9, give them a chance to establish themselves.
- Why play two 10s at 10-12? Smith and Farrell just get in each others way. Pick one, I would go for Smith, and build around them. Farrell is not a 12 and again your game gets sort of stuck between him and Tuilagi at 13. If you must play Tuliagi then put him at 12 and get him to do what Esterhuizen does at Quins and let Smith play off good 2nd phase ball.
- However I think Tuilagi is gone as a player. He makes about 2-3 good runs with ball in hand a big hit and that is it. The ball rarely gets beyond him at 13 and your wingers get starved of ball plus his defence is awful, he is ok when he lines up a big hit but slow when asked to drift or turn in defence.
- 3 big guys in back 3 is attractive but when they are so slow and cumbersome it sort of limits your options. Cokanasiga took his try well but neither him nor Nowells are going to run away from anyone are they? Steward is a good 15 but also slow and you need some pace in your back 3. I would keep Steward at 15 and pick from the lots of good young guys who are more than able to play on the wing at this level.
I would have thought that Jones might have tried a few younger guys and some different combinations in the AIs but to keep repeating the same old shite and expect something different is unforgivable. I hope he keeps up the good work for the 6Ns.
- Why play 3 2nd row forwards with the talent you guys have in the back row? With Itoji and Big Billy at 6 and 8 your back row was slower than watching ice cream melt!
- Hill is a big waste of space in the boiler house and Itoji and the new guy Coles should have played at lock.
- Big Billy offers little at 8 apart from the odd carry into the tackle and I felt sorry for Curry, who did his best, as the only true back rower in the team.
- Why does Mako keep getting picked for the bench when everyone knows he is a weak scrummager? He got trashed when he came on, he doesn't even offer a lot in the loose now.
- Youngs is glacier and slows the team down at 9. He lost his pace and pass about 5 years ago and decision making is awful. Again you have a number of young guns at 9, give them a chance to establish themselves.
- Why play two 10s at 10-12? Smith and Farrell just get in each others way. Pick one, I would go for Smith, and build around them. Farrell is not a 12 and again your game gets sort of stuck between him and Tuilagi at 13. If you must play Tuliagi then put him at 12 and get him to do what Esterhuizen does at Quins and let Smith play off good 2nd phase ball.
- However I think Tuilagi is gone as a player. He makes about 2-3 good runs with ball in hand a big hit and that is it. The ball rarely gets beyond him at 13 and your wingers get starved of ball plus his defence is awful, he is ok when he lines up a big hit but slow when asked to drift or turn in defence.
- 3 big guys in back 3 is attractive but when they are so slow and cumbersome it sort of limits your options. Cokanasiga took his try well but neither him nor Nowells are going to run away from anyone are they? Steward is a good 15 but also slow and you need some pace in your back 3. I would keep Steward at 15 and pick from the lots of good young guys who are more than able to play on the wing at this level.
I would have thought that Jones might have tried a few younger guys and some different combinations in the AIs but to keep repeating the same old shite and expect something different is unforgivable. I hope he keeps up the good work for the 6Ns.
Yup. Coles is a completely different player to Hill. He's been playing at 6 a lot for Saints this season, he has very good hands and feet and is a real running threat, he's not really an enforcer who hits rucks hard and clears out forwards. Which is why Eddie played him at lock of course
Ribbans would be a direct replacement for Hill (and in my slightly biased opinion should have as many if not more caps than Hill by now, but that's another story).
Ribbans would be a direct replacement for Hill (and in my slightly biased opinion should have as many if not more caps than Hill by now, but that's another story).
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Former Bath wing (and x-factor contestant, if that floats your boat - along with Ben Foden and Thom Evans) Levi Davis has gone missing in Barcelona.
Sounds quite worrying.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ugby-union
Sounds quite worrying.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/ ... ugby-union
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To be honest, you could cut and paste most of the posts about Eddie's selections over the past 5 years - yep, that long - and it'd say pretty much the same thing.dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:49 pm As a Scot I am not gloating but I cannot for the life of me understand Jones's selections. He has a wealth of players to pick from and some great young talent, however I just hope he is still in post come the 6Ns and keeps going with his selection criteria! Some questions:
- Why play 3 2nd row forwards with the talent you guys have in the back row? With Itoji and Big Billy at 6 and 8 your back row was slower than watching ice cream melt!
- Hill is a big waste of space in the boiler house and Itoji and the new guy Coles should have played at lock.
- Big Billy offers little at 8 apart from the odd carry into the tackle and I felt sorry for Curry, who did his best, as the only true back rower in the team.
- Why does Mako keep getting picked for the bench when everyone knows he is a weak scrummager? He got trashed when he came on, he doesn't even offer a lot in the loose now.
- Youngs is glacier and slows the team down at 9. He lost his pace and pass about 5 years ago and decision making is awful. Again you have a number of young guns at 9, give them a chance to establish themselves.
- Why play two 10s at 10-12? Smith and Farrell just get in each others way. Pick one, I would go for Smith, and build around them. Farrell is not a 12 and again your game gets sort of stuck between him and Tuilagi at 13. If you must play Tuliagi then put him at 12 and get him to do what Esterhuizen does at Quins and let Smith play off good 2nd phase ball.
- However I think Tuilagi is gone as a player. He makes about 2-3 good runs with ball in hand a big hit and that is it. The ball rarely gets beyond him at 13 and your wingers get starved of ball plus his defence is awful, he is ok when he lines up a big hit but slow when asked to drift or turn in defence.
- 3 big guys in back 3 is attractive but when they are so slow and cumbersome it sort of limits your options. Cokanasiga took his try well but neither him nor Nowells are going to run away from anyone are they? Steward is a good 15 but also slow and you need some pace in your back 3. I would keep Steward at 15 and pick from the lots of good young guys who are more than able to play on the wing at this level.
I would have thought that Jones might have tried a few younger guys and some different combinations in the AIs but to keep repeating the same old shite and expect something different is unforgivable. I hope he keeps up the good work for the 6Ns.
I know us armchair fans like to cast our expert eyes and air our critique of the selectors' curious choices, but Jones is another level of weird and I don't think anyone can really understand them, let alone agree with them.
Itoje to 6 particularly irritates me - Surely it's one of the truisms in any team sport to never play your best player out of position. Think Jones was seduced by the impressive but unfortunately unavailable Courtney Lawes being able to fill in at 6 and thought any athletic, powerful lock could do likewise. It's not like we don't have very good specialist backrow options.
I caught bits of the game in and amongst childcare and my overriding feeling was one of boredom. When was watching England last exciting?
I missed the Tonga-Samoa quarter final in the League for that shit, and by all accounts it was a belter.
No matter what he says Jones' plans are totally contingent on Lawes, Farrell and Manu being available. Anything else he does in their absence is a stop-gap. He doesn't rate the premiership or English players and never has done. We're going nowhere and on this showing will do well to make it to the quarters next year.
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This is a good portrait of the decline under EJ.
Those clean break and tries scored numbers especially are terminal.
Those clean break and tries scored numbers especially are terminal.
Yep, an utterly ridiciulous decision! I'm sick to death of Jones and his bullshit
I've not bothered getting RWC tickets for England matches next year. Got French and Australia matches instead.
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I've never rated Farrell as a 10 but I still have a liking for a 2nd 5/8th a la Mauger. If you have a 2nd tactical kicking option (even better if it's different feet as per Wilkinson/Catt), all the better. In a game now where kicking dominates, it looks even more attractive. Theoretically, it should work for Eng: especially since Farrell is a decent enough defender on the occasions he does so legally.dpedin wrote: ↑Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:49 pm - Why play two 10s at 10-12? Smith and Farrell just get in each others way. Pick one, I would go for Smith, and build around them. Farrell is not a 12 and again your game gets sort of stuck between him and Tuilagi at 13. If you must play Tuliagi then put him at 12 and get him to do what Esterhuizen does at Quins and let Smith play off good 2nd phase ball.
What looks to be the problem is this swapping of Smith and Farrell on the fly during the game and all it results in is confusion because they are entirely different types and so cannot play the same game plan. I suspect part of the problem is allowing Farrell to continue to be captain which is simply helping undermine Smith's role. And anyway, 12 is a sh*t position from which to captain. Give the job to Curry.
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I think Will Carling might think otherwise.
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Not going to get into an argument over whether Bumface was a good captain but that was in such a different era, it was a different game entirely.
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Eddie himself called it right when he said he’d do best with just one cycle.
Those stats above bear out something I’d suspected - 2018 was in no way as bad as things have got now and there seemed to be a clear way back. Defence isn’t quite what it was either - Boffelli’s try was excellent but a carbon copy of a try France scored at HQ in our win a couple of years back (and incidentally one of our last proper performances).
I like Faz. Much much more than most here but he’s clesrly unsuited to the captaincy. Our performance gets worse as games go along. I make that the fourth time in a year we have either bottled a game we’d been on top of or come bloody close (Scotland, Wales, Oz first test* and now Sunday)
*disclaimer was setting up the ground for a cricket match during it so memory is very patchy.
In all of those we’ve had ball and possession to put teams away and haven’t ever really looked like doing so.
Fundamentally the team is just slow. I felt in the first half yesterday we were knocking Argentina off balance in attack, but we lacked the pace to turn half gaps into open field and then Youngs gave them a couple of seconds to reorganise at the base of the ruck, so we hit more brick walls. It is no surprise that in one of our few actual attacks in the second half we knocked them off balance and JvP ran in almost unopposed to score.
We have the barebones of an exceptionally competitive side. JvP and Quirke could reinvigorate this side, we’ve got some very exciting young wingers (albeit some injured), and we have an answer to the back row issue in Ben Earl and Maro rejoining the second row. Steward gives us a chance of diffusing the main threat of the Boks and Ireland. Things could change very quickly.
Instead it seems like Eddie has given up, has worked out we have a semi viable route to a semi final without playing tonnes of rugby and will then leave declaring mission accomplished.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Jones loves his stats, someone should post that on his twitter timeline :-)Margin__Walker wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:09 am This is a good portrait of the decline under EJ.
Those clean break and tries scored numbers especially are terminal.
I know selection is a big problem but there's a huge number of coaches who could be given the exact same players that played at the weekend and get a song out of them. England don't look like they're trying to. Neither Smith nor Farrell looked like they were playing at their club intensity with ball in hand, a lot of time was spent shipping it on to the big lumps outside. Eddie will probably believe his own bullshit about not wanting to show opposition teams too much before the world cup, and I'm sure he's got at least one good win at the RWC in him (before we lose to someone he thinks we're naturally superior to), but fuck me no other team spends 2-3 years deliberately being shit and I refuse to believe Englan are trying to either.
It's not like we're grooving combinations either. It's yet another different centre pairing. Yet another different wing pairing. Yet another different back row. Fucksake.
It's not like we're grooving combinations either. It's yet another different centre pairing. Yet another different wing pairing. Yet another different back row. Fucksake.
Yep - if the gameplan is just to ship ball on to the big lumps, he might as well just play Farrell at 10 and keep it that simple - there's little point in having Smith at FH (part time) and we'd be better off with Tuilagi at 12 and cut out the middle man. It'd also help if we had a balanced Backrow that could do some link play - Curry tackled well, Billy caried OK but we didn't get much else from them as a unit and Itoge was totally wasted at 6 where he is simply not quick enough or instinctly doing the things that a top class 6 does.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 12:44 pm I know selection is a big problem but there's a huge number of coaches who could be given the exact same players that played at the weekend and get a song out of them. England don't look like they're trying to. Neither Smith nor Farrell looked like they were playing at their club intensity with ball in hand, a lot of time was spent shipping it on to the big lumps outside. Eddie will probably believe his own bullshit about not wanting to show opposition teams too much before the world cup, and I'm sure he's got at least one good win at the RWC in him (before we lose to someone he thinks we're naturally superior to), but fuck me no other team spends 2-3 years deliberately being shit and I refuse to believe Englan are trying to either.
It's not like we're grooving combinations either. It's yet another different centre pairing. Yet another different wing pairing. Yet another different back row. Fucksake.
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Will Greenwood gently and respectfully writing that Youngs' career should be over:
Finally, regarding scrum-half, you're a year out from the World Cup. I have always said to Clive Woodward that, while it would have been a cruel thing to do in the changing room just after winning the World Cup, he should have walked over to 10 of us and said that you are not playing for England again. We would probably have thanked him for it given we lost to Ireland at home five months later. Ben Youngs has a million caps and is a wonderful human being, but you just sort of feel that it is time for Jack van Poortvliet. Here is the No 9 jersey, and go and have a dig with it.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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His career was over 3 years ago. Just that Jones hadn't noticed.Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:59 pm Will Greenwood gently and respectfully writing that Youngs' career should be over:Finally, regarding scrum-half, you're a year out from the World Cup. I have always said to Clive Woodward that, while it would have been a cruel thing to do in the changing room just after winning the World Cup, he should have walked over to 10 of us and said that you are not playing for England again. We would probably have thanked him for it given we lost to Ireland at home five months later. Ben Youngs has a million caps and is a wonderful human being, but you just sort of feel that it is time for Jack van Poortvliet. Here is the No 9 jersey, and go and have a dig with it.
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:59 pmBen Youngs has a million caps and is a wonderful human being, but you just sort of feel that it is time for Jack van Poortvliet. Here is the No 9 jersey, and go and have a dig with it.
Not wonderful enough to read the room and retire himself from selection.
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I count myself as wonderful as the next man, but there's no way I'd voluntarily step off the 25k per cap (or whatever it is these days) gravy train.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:40 pmPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:59 pmBen Youngs has a million caps and is a wonderful human being, but you just sort of feel that it is time for Jack van Poortvliet. Here is the No 9 jersey, and go and have a dig with it.
Not wonderful enough to read the room and retire himself from selection.
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I think this is an incredibly harsh criticism of the manKawazaki wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:40 pmPaddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 3:59 pmBen Youngs has a million caps and is a wonderful human being, but you just sort of feel that it is time for Jack van Poortvliet. Here is the No 9 jersey, and go and have a dig with it.
Not wonderful enough to read the room and retire himself from selection.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Joe Marchant off to Paris. Can't say I blame him as he's obviously surplus to requirements for England..............in Jones's mind!
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/joe-m ... -behind/Harlequins centre Joe Marchant is set to leave English rugby behind in favour of signing for Top 14 side Stade Francais.
Midi Olympique and The Telegraph are reporting that a deal has been finalised for him to make the short hop over the channel to the French capital at the end of the current season.
The decision will also see him put aside any designs he had on continuing his international rugby career with Eddie Jones’ England. It’s unclear exactly when the call was made but his omission from Jones’ Autumn Nations Series selection might have been enough to copper fasten his decision to head to the door.
Ffs he was one of England's better players in the last 6nations.SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:54 pm Joe Marchant off to Paris. Can't say I blame him as he's obviously surplus to requirements for England..............in Jones's mind!https://www.rugbypass.com/news/joe-m ... -behind/Harlequins centre Joe Marchant is set to leave English rugby behind in favour of signing for Top 14 side Stade Francais.
Midi Olympique and The Telegraph are reporting that a deal has been finalised for him to make the short hop over the channel to the French capital at the end of the current season.
The decision will also see him put aside any designs he had on continuing his international rugby career with Eddie Jones’ England. It’s unclear exactly when the call was made but his omission from Jones’ Autumn Nations Series selection might have been enough to copper fasten his decision to head to the door.
Paddington Bear wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:51 pmI think this is an incredibly harsh criticism of the man
No honour doing it for King and country any more. In the old days, a man who'd played like Youngs would have taken himself into the privacy of the Obolenski suite with a bottle of Glenlivet and a service revolver and done the decent thing. He'd still have missed with the first five shots of course.
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<sighs>SaintK wrote: ↑Mon Nov 07, 2022 4:54 pm Joe Marchant off to Paris. Can't say I blame him as he's obviously surplus to requirements for England..............in Jones's mind!https://www.rugbypass.com/news/joe-m ... -behind/Harlequins centre Joe Marchant is set to leave English rugby behind in favour of signing for Top 14 side Stade Francais.
Midi Olympique and The Telegraph are reporting that a deal has been finalised for him to make the short hop over the channel to the French capital at the end of the current season.
The decision will also see him put aside any designs he had on continuing his international rugby career with Eddie Jones’ England. It’s unclear exactly when the call was made but his omission from Jones’ Autumn Nations Series selection might have been enough to copper fasten his decision to head to the door.
I've no real problem with someone approaching the end of career recognising their international race is pretty much run and looking for a last payday, but he should be in his prime.
Not quite the same, but going back a few seasons JJ seemed to just vanish of of England's radar overnight - another pacey, talented 13 disappearing from international view (recognising Merchant can play wing as well).