The Official English Rugby Thread

[fishfoodie]

Eddie has a second career ahead of him in standup !

This is Jones’s take: “We are developing an attack that’s unpredictable. It’s not consistent yet, but by the World Cup it will be. Our defence is pretty good and our breakdown is pretty good. We’ve still got a consistency area in the scrum to improve. Generally our aerial game is outstanding.”
The numbers don’t entirely support that summary. More facts: this was England’s worst year under Jones for tries scored, points scored, line breaks, tackle success and scrum success. England’s scrum was the worst of the world’s top ten nations and their tackle success the second worst, above only Japan. They were in the bottom four for line breaks and only Wales scored fewer tries.

https://archive.ph/cybB8

In the real world; England has an utterly predictable attack, that's sloth like, because of the Eddiots selections, which means that even when their opponents are a man down for long periods, there's no threat.

Meanwhile; it's defence is notable by how many penalties it coughs up, & as for the notion that the aerial game is outstanding

England has a fullback who ticks the basic box of being able to field a Garryowen; but apart from that, whenever England kicks from hand, their opponents breath a sign of relief.

[petej]

Eddie has a second career ahead of him in standup !

This is Jones’s take: “We are developing an attack that’s unpredictable. It’s not consistent yet, but by the World Cup it will be. Our defence is pretty good and our breakdown is pretty good. We’ve still got a consistency area in the scrum to improve. Generally our aerial game is outstanding.”
The numbers don’t entirely support that summary. More facts: this was England’s worst year under Jones for tries scored, points scored, line breaks, tackle success and scrum success. England’s scrum was the worst of the world’s top ten nations and their tackle success the second worst, above only Japan. They were in the bottom four for line breaks and only Wales scored fewer tries.

https://archive.ph/cybB8

In the real world; England has an utterly predictable attack, that's sloth like, because of the Eddiots selections, which means that even when their opponents are a man down for long periods, there's no threat.

Meanwhile; it's defence is notable by how many penalties it coughs up, & as for the notion that the aerial game is outstanding

England has a fullback who ticks the basic box of being able to field a Garryowen; but apart from that, whenever England kicks from hand, their opponents breath a sign of relief.

Stewards aerial game was outstanding but seems to be getting worse the more time he spends in the England set up. Eddie the energy vampire slowly draining his players.

[ASMO]

Signs are looking positive that the poison dwarf may be given the spanish archer, he was supposed to be going to France in December to check out the facilities for the England team, apparently that trip has been cancelled.

[GogLais]

Signs are looking positive that the poison dwarf may be given the spanish archer, he was supposed to be going to France in December to check out the facilities for the England team, apparently that trip has been cancelled.

Are he and Pivac off on a jolly somewhere else?

[sockwithaticket]

Signs are looking positive that the poison dwarf may be given the spanish archer, he was supposed to be going to France in December to check out the facilities for the England team, apparently that trip has been cancelled.

Don't toy with me.

[SaintK]

Signs are looking positive that the poison dwarf may be given the spanish archer, he was supposed to be going to France in December to check out the facilities for the England team, apparently that trip has been cancelled.

One can but hope!

[inactionman]

Rumours on Bath forums are Shillcock off to Tigers (he's confirmed as leaving the club but not sure where he'll end up), Big Joe C off to LI and Will Rowlands coming in next year.

I'm not sure what Rowlands mans for our back row stocks, given we've got an extra in Quinn Roux as injury cover for Ewels. Or what it means for Rowlands' Wales aspirations - not sure if he meets cap criteria?

Shillcock has looked pretty good on the limited times I've seen him play for Bath, thought he might have been retained.


I appreciate the sad demise of Worcester and Wasps and the salary cap changes have meant there's quite a few players after moves and more jigging top be done, but does it all seem to be getting a bit more merry-go-round each year? It used to be a few fringe players would move and maybe a first-teamer after a last payday, but it just seems like revolving doors now.

[Raggs]

Rumours on Bath forums are Shillcock off to Tigers (he's confirmed as leaving the club but not sure where he'll end up), Big Joe C off to LI and Will Rowlands coming in next year.

I'm not sure what Rowlands mans for our back row stocks, given we've got an extra in Quinn Roux as injury cover for Ewels. Or what it means for Rowlands' Wales aspirations - not sure if he meets cap criteria?

Shillcock has looked pretty good on the limited times I've seen him play for Bath, thought he might have been retained.


I appreciate the sad demise of Worcester and Wasps and the salary cap changes have meant there's quite a few players after moves and more jigging top be done, but does it all seem to be getting a bit more merry-go-round each year? It used to be a few fringe players would move and maybe a first-teamer after a last payday, but it just seems like revolving doors now.

Rowlands is a lock, why would he effect your backrow? If Rowlands hasn't been offered a "fair" contract from a welsh region, he will still be qualified for Wales.

[inactionman]

Rumours on Bath forums are Shillcock off to Tigers (he's confirmed as leaving the club but not sure where he'll end up), Big Joe C off to LI and Will Rowlands coming in next year.

I'm not sure what Rowlands mans for our back row stocks, given we've got an extra in Quinn Roux as injury cover for Ewels. Or what it means for Rowlands' Wales aspirations - not sure if he meets cap criteria?

Shillcock has looked pretty good on the limited times I've seen him play for Bath, thought he might have been retained.


I appreciate the sad demise of Worcester and Wasps and the salary cap changes have meant there's quite a few players after moves and more jigging top be done, but does it all seem to be getting a bit more merry-go-round each year? It used to be a few fringe players would move and maybe a first-teamer after a last payday, but it just seems like revolving doors now.

Rowlands is a lock, why would he effect your backrow? If Rowlands hasn't been offered a "fair" contract from a welsh region, he will still be qualified for Wales.

Apols, meant Lock - Quinn Roux is lock cover for Ewels.

[sockwithaticket]

Rumours on Bath forums are Shillcock off to Tigers (he's confirmed as leaving the club but not sure where he'll end up), Big Joe C off to LI and Will Rowlands coming in next year.

I'm not sure what Rowlands mans for our back row stocks, given we've got an extra in Quinn Roux as injury cover for Ewels. Or what it means for Rowlands' Wales aspirations - not sure if he meets cap criteria?

Shillcock has looked pretty good on the limited times I've seen him play for Bath, thought he might have been retained.


I appreciate the sad demise of Worcester and Wasps and the salary cap changes have meant there's quite a few players after moves and more jigging top be done, but does it all seem to be getting a bit more merry-go-round each year? It used to be a few fringe players would move and maybe a first-teamer after a last payday, but it just seems like revolving doors now.

There've also been quite a few coaching regime changes over the last 2 - 3 seasons. Every coach likes to try and build their own squad up, they don't necessarily see the value in some players that their predecessor did, some players don't get on with the new direction/culture/being less favoured/whatever and so we see quite a bit of churn as players come out of contract over the course of a couple of seasons.

Rowlands will be a good addition. Maybe Spencer moving on? Not an avid follower of Bath team sheets, but it feels like he's barely featured for you.

[inactionman]

Rumours on Bath forums are Shillcock off to Tigers (he's confirmed as leaving the club but not sure where he'll end up), Big Joe C off to LI and Will Rowlands coming in next year.

I'm not sure what Rowlands mans for our back row stocks, given we've got an extra in Quinn Roux as injury cover for Ewels. Or what it means for Rowlands' Wales aspirations - not sure if he meets cap criteria?

Shillcock has looked pretty good on the limited times I've seen him play for Bath, thought he might have been retained.


I appreciate the sad demise of Worcester and Wasps and the salary cap changes have meant there's quite a few players after moves and more jigging top be done, but does it all seem to be getting a bit more merry-go-round each year? It used to be a few fringe players would move and maybe a first-teamer after a last payday, but it just seems like revolving doors now.

There've also been quite a few coaching regime changes over the last 2 - 3 seasons. Every coach likes to try and build their own squad up, they don't necessarily see the value in some players that their predecessor did, some players don't get on with the new direction/culture/being less favoured/whatever and so we see quite a bit of churn as players come out of contract over the course of a couple of seasons.

Rowlands will be a good addition. Maybe Spencer moving on? Not an avid follower of Bath team sheets, but it feels like he's barely featured for you.

Fair point, and Bath have suffered coaching changes more than most.

Will Spencer just can't seem to get a run free from injury, and even outside of that (well, perhaps partly caused by that) he seems to be perennially a pine-rider.

[Ovals]

Signs are looking positive that the poison dwarf may be given the spanish archer, he was supposed to be going to France in December to check out the facilities for the England team, apparently that trip has been cancelled.

Don't toy with me.

Jake posted on Facebook that he reckons Eddie is toast.

[SaintK]

Rumours on Bath forums are Shillcock off to Tigers (he's confirmed as leaving the club but not sure where he'll end up), Big Joe C off to LI and Will Rowlands coming in next year.

I'm not sure what Rowlands mans for our back row stocks, given we've got an extra in Quinn Roux as injury cover for Ewels. Or what it means for Rowlands' Wales aspirations - not sure if he meets cap criteria?

Shillcock has looked pretty good on the limited times I've seen him play for Bath, thought he might have been retained.


I appreciate the sad demise of Worcester and Wasps and the salary cap changes have meant there's quite a few players after moves and more jigging top be done, but does it all seem to be getting a bit more merry-go-round each year? It used to be a few fringe players would move and maybe a first-teamer after a last payday, but it just seems like revolving doors now.

Rowlands is a lock, why would he effect your backrow? If Rowlands hasn't been offered a "fair" contract from a welsh region, he will still be qualified for Wales.

I thought all contract negotiations have been frozen in Wales as the WRU and regions try and come to an agreement on funding?

[SaintK]

Signs are looking positive that the poison dwarf may be given the spanish archer, he was supposed to be going to France in December to check out the facilities for the England team, apparently that trip has been cancelled.

Don't toy with me.

Jake posted on Facebook that he reckons Eddie is toast.

Yes please with lashings of butter and jam!!!!

[Raggs]

Rumours on Bath forums are Shillcock off to Tigers (he's confirmed as leaving the club but not sure where he'll end up), Big Joe C off to LI and Will Rowlands coming in next year.

I'm not sure what Rowlands mans for our back row stocks, given we've got an extra in Quinn Roux as injury cover for Ewels. Or what it means for Rowlands' Wales aspirations - not sure if he meets cap criteria?

Shillcock has looked pretty good on the limited times I've seen him play for Bath, thought he might have been retained.


I appreciate the sad demise of Worcester and Wasps and the salary cap changes have meant there's quite a few players after moves and more jigging top be done, but does it all seem to be getting a bit more merry-go-round each year? It used to be a few fringe players would move and maybe a first-teamer after a last payday, but it just seems like revolving doors now.

Rowlands is a lock, why would he effect your backrow? If Rowlands hasn't been offered a "fair" contract from a welsh region, he will still be qualified for Wales.

I thought all contract negotiations have been frozen in Wales as the WRU and regions try and come to an agreement on funding?

I believe so, meaning he won't have been offered a contract so should be free to go without impacting welsh selection.

[SaintK]

Don't toy with me.

Jake posted on Facebook that he reckons Eddie is toast.

Yes please with lashings of butter and jam!!!!

Now being reported the RFU have cancelled the media drinks party scheduled for early next week and also Jones's RWC fact finding trip to France later next week!!!!

[Slick]

Jake posted on Facebook that he reckons Eddie is toast.

Yes please with lashings of butter and jam!!!!

Now being reported the RFU have cancelled the media drinks party scheduled for early next week and also Jones's RWC fact finding trip to France later next week!!!!

Having read a fair few reports today I can see why they don't want drinks with the media. They can't withstand this, he will go. Which is shame, with us being at Twickenham for the first game of the new regime...

[Kawazaki]

Matthew Syed gives Eddiot a right kicking here;

https://archive.ph/4MWNT

Lovely job.

[Paddington Bear]

Papers are really piling onto him now, which suggests the end is nigh.

[Kawazaki]

Papers are really piling onto him now, which suggests the end is nigh.

When Jones said he "didn't care what anyone else thinks" with that smirk on his face in the post-match presser, he made a huge strategic error. He pushed his hubris too far.

[sockwithaticket]

He's been baiting them for years and now that they scent blood, knives that have been honed for a long time are being brought out.

The Times are also reporting that the back room staff merry go round continues. The team doc has already quit and the newly hired training co-ordinator (who joined in mid-October) was on the verge of resigning at the beginning of the month and is still considering whether or not to do so.

https://archive.ph/kVeuN

[Ymx]

I really hope for your sake you rid yourselves of him.

I hope it doesn’t pan out like the Foster situation, where no one can quite believe how he stayed.

All the best! It gives me hope if the RFU take action.

If Jones goes, Pivac goes, then all eyes be back on Foster.

[Ymx]

Unless you appoint Robertson, then I explode with rage, burn down the RFU offices.

[Kawazaki]

Unless you appoint Robertson, then I explode with rage, burn down the RFU offices.

I think Jones staying is probably still Evens although if he does remain it'll have to come with same fairly hefty caveats, it has to.

However, if Sweeney grows a pair and sacks the chancer then Robertson would be a huge outsider and not just in terms of the RFU offering him the job. I think it would be hard work convincing him to accept.

[Random1]

Unless you appoint Robertson, then I explode with rage, burn down the RFU offices.

I think Jones staying is probably still Evens although if he does remain it'll have to come with same fairly hefty caveats, it has to.

However, if Sweeney grows a pair and sacks the chancer then Robertson would be a huge outsider and not just in terms of the RFU offering him the job. I think it would be hard work convincing him to accept.

It’s gonna be cockers isn’t it…

[Paddington Bear]

Unless you appoint Robertson, then I explode with rage, burn down the RFU offices.

I think Jones staying is probably still Evens although if he does remain it'll have to come with same fairly hefty caveats, it has to.

However, if Sweeney grows a pair and sacks the chancer then Robertson would be a huge outsider and not just in terms of the RFU offering him the job. I think it would be hard work convincing him to accept.

He’d obviosuly say yes. Decent cash, international gig, the talent is there to turn it round and if he can’t just say he didn’t have enough time

[JM2K6]

Unless you appoint Robertson, then I explode with rage, burn down the RFU offices.

I think Jones staying is probably still Evens although if he does remain it'll have to come with same fairly hefty caveats, it has to.

However, if Sweeney grows a pair and sacks the chancer then Robertson would be a huge outsider and not just in terms of the RFU offering him the job. I think it would be hard work convincing him to accept.

I don't think the RFU would sack him without a good option to replace him, and Robertson seems very keen - the RFU might well believe he's not only a good option for right now but a great long-term choice too, in which case they'd want to snap him up before NZ gets round to grabbing him.

[Raggs]

It's a great time for a new coach. If they turn it around, brilliant, if they don't, they can just claim not to have had the time. And someone like Robertson will pick up a ton of experience.

Lancaster+Robertson in some sort of dor/head coach combo?

[Kawazaki]

I don't think the RFU would sack him without a good option to replace him, and Robertson seems very keen - the RFU might well believe he's not only a good option for right now but a great long-term choice too, in which case they'd want to snap him up before NZ gets round to grabbing him.

Is he keen? I honestly don't know, I've never heard him discuss what he wants. In fact I don't think I've ever seen him interviewed.

I don't think coaching England is easy but I do think it's a great opportunity for the right man. If I'm being really honest, the best man for the job, by absolute miles, is Mark McCall.

[JM2K6]

I don't think the RFU would sack him without a good option to replace him, and Robertson seems very keen - the RFU might well believe he's not only a good option for right now but a great long-term choice too, in which case they'd want to snap him up before NZ gets round to grabbing him.

Is he keen? I honestly don't know, I've never heard him discuss what he wants. In fact I don't think I've ever seen him interviewed.

I don't think coaching England is easy but I do think it's a great opportunity for the right man. If I'm being really honest, the best man for the job, by absolute miles, is Mark McCall.

Yeah, Robertson's keen. Read some recent quotes from him talking about how of course he'd be interested, it's a great job and an exciting one.

[ASMO]

Don't toy with me.

Jake posted on Facebook that he reckons Eddie is toast.

Yes please with lashings of butter and jam!!!!

just lashings will suffice ;-)

[Kawazaki]

If the RFU sack Jones then England still have the problem of trying to recruit specialist coaches into the assistant positions.

It is a mess. I can envisage Sweeney sticking with Jones as more likely then sacking him.

[SaintK]

If the RFU sack Jones then England still have the problem of trying to recruit specialist coaches into the assistant positions.

It is a mess. I can envisage Sweeney sticking with Jones as more likely then sacking him.

Unfortunately yes
As the DCMS select committee told him last week, Sweeney should be considering his position not just for the Worcester/Wasps debacle but also for the way he has overseen the national team.

[Paddington Bear]

If the RFU sack Jones then England still have the problem of trying to recruit specialist coaches into the assistant positions.

It is a mess. I can envisage Sweeney sticking with Jones as more likely then sacking him.

Unfortunately yes
As the DCMS select committee told him last week, Sweeney should be considering his position not just for the Worcester/Wasps debacle but also for the way he has overseen the national team.

The Telegraph today captured Sweeney's dilemma pretty well. Sticking with Eddie now is ballsy as anything and if it doesn't work then he's the outlier and will have to go. We've mentioned the 'no one gets fired for bringing in IBM' mantra before, and that's where I think Sweeney is. If he sacks Eddie he's doing what the rest of us would do so will keep his job if it doesn't work out, so he is most likely to sack him.

[Kawazaki]

If the RFU sack Jones then England still have the problem of trying to recruit specialist coaches into the assistant positions.

It is a mess. I can envisage Sweeney sticking with Jones as more likely then sacking him.

Unfortunately yes
As the DCMS select committee told him last week, Sweeney should be considering his position not just for the Worcester/Wasps debacle but also for the way he has overseen the national team.

The Telegraph today captured Sweeney's dilemma pretty well. Sticking with Eddie now is ballsy as anything and if it doesn't work then he's the outlier and will have to go. We've mentioned the 'no one gets fired for bringing in IBM' mantra before, and that's where I think Sweeney is. If he sacks Eddie he's doing what the rest of us would do so will keep his job if it doesn't work out, so he is most likely to sack him.

The 'IBM' route for Sweeney would be to stick with Jones, not sack him.

[Mahoney]

Did I dream it, or was someone (in the Times? The BBC?) raising the possibility of the RFU insisting on Jones changing his coaching team?

I really hoped we'd seen the back of that nonsense... if you don't trust the head coach / manager / whatever-you-call-them to put the right coaching team in place you don't trust them to do their job, so sack them.

[inactionman]

Rowlands is a lock, why would he effect your backrow? If Rowlands hasn't been offered a "fair" contract from a welsh region, he will still be qualified for Wales.

I thought all contract negotiations have been frozen in Wales as the WRU and regions try and come to an agreement on funding?

I believe so, meaning he won't have been offered a contract so should be free to go without impacting welsh selection.

Not quite sure what's going on

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63799586

[Kawazaki]

A cunning tactical move by Sweeney would be to appoint Clive Woodward on a 10-month secondment to oversea the England team in the build-up to the RWC.

Eddie could resign and forfeit his contract of course.

[sockwithaticket]

I thought all contract negotiations have been frozen in Wales as the WRU and regions try and come to an agreement on funding?

I believe so, meaning he won't have been offered a contract so should be free to go without impacting welsh selection.

Not quite sure what's going on

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63799586

Walker, the governing body's performance director, wrote on social media to dispute Flanagan's version of events, saying the rejected offer would have kept Rowlands at WRU-owned Dragons for the 2023-24 season.

I would imagine that a 31 year old international is looking for a bit more security than a one season deal. Especially as the regions won't be offering top money.

If I were Rowlands I'd be arguing that's a below market rate offer and thus I'm free to go elsewhere and still be picked for Wales. Though we all know that clause is bollocks and the WRU never intended for it to actually be invoked unless it's for someone like Biggar being offered a million euros per season in France.

[inactionman]

A cunning tactical move by Sweeney would be to appoint Clive Woodward on a 10-month secondment to oversea the England team in the build-up to the RWC.

Eddie could resign and forfeit his contract of course.

I was wondering whether Sweeny could insert a coaching and management team around (and ideally above) Jones must to make his position ultimately untenable.

Lord Bald would be an excellent candidate. As would Rob Andrew.