The Official English Rugby Thread

[Raggs]

Didn't see the whole game but saw that tackle from Coleman (last bit I saw). Thought it was a big hit on the ball when I first saw it and that the injury probably came from the whiplash and smash into the ground, soon as the replays were shown it was so obviously a ref. Glad Carley (?) didn't bother with 50 angles and just grabbed his card.

EDIT - Just seen the Earl one. Not sure what he's trying to do there? As soon as it's a shoulder barge whatever you're doing is illegal, whether trying to tackle/assist/clear etc.

[JM2K6]

Forgot this was on. Funny read.

[SaintK]

Saracens have beaten themselves but it's Carley that is the catalyst. Saracens hate him and you can see why.

Yep, Sarries were way off their usual form. Carley reffed no differently than he usually does, Sarries players just need to keep their mouths shut

[SaintK]

Quins 15-5 down at home to Bristol
Pissing down with rain so handling not easy and a bit messy so far

[Torquemada 1420]

Marler evidently being a pr*ck again.

[Blackmac]

The tackle was slightly high but in real time it's clear that the impact is minimal, however it is sad to see a huge unit like Esterhuizen rolling about like a slapped child to milk it.

[Blackmac]

Justice

[JM2K6]

He got twatted straight in the jaw by the shoulder of a powerful player launching upwards. He gets hit high a lot and doesn't milk it.

Are you allowed to dive on players on the floor like just happened there...?

[Torquemada 1420]

He got twatted straight in the jaw by the shoulder of a powerful player launching upwards. He gets hit high a lot and doesn't milk it.

Are you allowed to dive on players on the floor like just happened there...?

No but on a pretty poor officiating effort by Dickson (repeatedly picked up on in commentary), Quins got the rub overall. Blatant fwd pass for the 2nd try.

[JM2K6]

The ball to Marchant wasn't forward. An earlier one was, but the one during the move that led to the second try wasn't.

[Blackmac]

He got twatted straight in the jaw by the shoulder of a powerful player launching upwards. He gets hit high a lot and doesn't milk it.

Are you allowed to dive on players on the floor like just happened there...?

You are guilding it a bit there are you not. He only really stepped across when he was hit by the other Quinn running into him, he didn't launch upwards into anyone. It was clear in real time the impact barely touched him. Fine, it's an offence but the theatrics are just becoming too unpalatable.

[JM2K6]

He got twatted straight in the jaw by the shoulder of a powerful player launching upwards. He gets hit high a lot and doesn't milk it.

Are you allowed to dive on players on the floor like just happened there...?

You are guilding it a bit there are you not. He only really stepped across when he was hit by the other Quinn running into him, he didn't launch upwards into anyone. It was clear in real time the impact barely touched him. Fine, it's an offence but the theatrics are just becoming too unpalatable.

No I'm really not. Ibitoye was hitting upwards and got him clean in the jaw, coming at a different angle to the one that Esterhuizen was already being driven by the original tackle.

The theatrics were... Him staying down holding his jaw. Because he got hit in the jaw. You're seeing what you want to see , everyone else saw a dangerous tackle with shoulder direct to jaw. The impact was far worse than you're making out.

[SaintK]

Pretty poor match
Not quite sure how Bristol hung on

[Torquemada 1420]

everyone else saw a dangerous tackle with shoulder direct to jaw. The impact was far worse than you're making out.

Other than the officials. Or it would have been red?

[Blackmac]

He got twatted straight in the jaw by the shoulder of a powerful player launching upwards. He gets hit high a lot and doesn't milk it.

Are you allowed to dive on players on the floor like just happened there...?

You are guilding it a bit there are you not. He only really stepped across when he was hit by the other Quinn running into him, he didn't launch upwards into anyone. It was clear in real time the impact barely touched him. Fine, it's an offence but the theatrics are just becoming too unpalatable.

No I'm really not. Ibitoye was hitting upwards and got him clean in the jaw, coming at a different angle to the one that Esterhuizen was already being driven by the original tackle.

The theatrics were... Him staying down holding his jaw. Because he got hit in the jaw. You're seeing what you want to see , everyone else saw a dangerous tackle with shoulder direct to jaw. The impact was far worse than you're making out.

I've got no skin in the game, if anything I've always followed Quins. I honestly think you are being a bit hysterical about it, it was a foul yes, but there was little if any real intent in it. I presume the "everyone else" is the Quins crowd oohing and aahing at the replays to influence the ref. I'm with Torq for once, anyone disputing that Quins didn't get the better of the decisions is taking the piss. .

[JM2K6]

Pretty poor match
Not quite sure how Bristol hung on

Great attitude in defence and total lineout dominance

[JM2K6]

You are guilding it a bit there are you not. He only really stepped across when he was hit by the other Quinn running into him, he didn't launch upwards into anyone. It was clear in real time the impact barely touched him. Fine, it's an offence but the theatrics are just becoming too unpalatable.

No I'm really not. Ibitoye was hitting upwards and got him clean in the jaw, coming at a different angle to the one that Esterhuizen was already being driven by the original tackle.

The theatrics were... Him staying down holding his jaw. Because he got hit in the jaw. You're seeing what you want to see , everyone else saw a dangerous tackle with shoulder direct to jaw. The impact was far worse than you're making out.

I've got no skin in the game, if anything I've always followed Quins. I honestly think you are being a bit hysterical about it, it was a foul yes, but there was little if any real intent in it. I presume the "everyone else" is the Quins crowd oohing and aahing at the replays to influence the ref. I'm with Torq for once, anyone disputing that Quins didn't get the better of the decisions is taking the piss. .

I don't particularly like it when players are accused of faking when everything points to it being a genuine injury. Intent is completely irrelevant. We've seen players knocked out from the same level of contact. You've decided that because you think there wasn't much in it, the reaction was therefore faking and not actually evidence you might be wrong.

Has anyone argued with torq about decisions over the course of the game, or is that another thing you've decided you've seen?

[sockwithaticket]

He got twatted straight in the jaw by the shoulder of a powerful player launching upwards. He gets hit high a lot and doesn't milk it.

Are you allowed to dive on players on the floor like just happened there...?

No but on a pretty poor officiating effort by Dickson (repeatedly picked up on in commentary), Quins got the rub overall. Blatant fwd pass for the 2nd try.

I haven't see this game, but with Ridley doing Tigers - Glaws and Dickson getting this one PRL/RFU are messing up. It's a reasonable thing for some ex-players to pursue becoming officials, but they should not be allowed to officiate their former club(s). At least not as the ref or TMO. There are enough officials on the books that it shouldn't be necessary.

[JM2K6]

He got twatted straight in the jaw by the shoulder of a powerful player launching upwards. He gets hit high a lot and doesn't milk it.

Are you allowed to dive on players on the floor like just happened there...?

No but on a pretty poor officiating effort by Dickson (repeatedly picked up on in commentary), Quins got the rub overall. Blatant fwd pass for the 2nd try.

I haven't see this game, but with Ridley doing Tigers - Glaws and Dickson getting this one PRL/RFU are messing up. It's a reasonable thing for some ex-players to pursue becoming officials, but they should not be allowed to officiate their former club(s). At least not as the ref or TMO. There are enough officials on the books that it shouldn't be necessary.

Dickson isn't biased towards Quins, given some of the horror shows he's put in before that have hurt us. He is however miles out of his depth at this level.

[Blackmac]

No I'm really not. Ibitoye was hitting upwards and got him clean in the jaw, coming at a different angle to the one that Esterhuizen was already being driven by the original tackle.

The theatrics were... Him staying down holding his jaw. Because he got hit in the jaw. You're seeing what you want to see , everyone else saw a dangerous tackle with shoulder direct to jaw. The impact was far worse than you're making out.

I've got no skin in the game, if anything I've always followed Quins. I honestly think you are being a bit hysterical about it, it was a foul yes, but there was little if any real intent in it. I presume the "everyone else" is the Quins crowd oohing and aahing at the replays to influence the ref. I'm with Torq for once, anyone disputing that Quins didn't get the better of the decisions is taking the piss. .

I don't particularly like it when players are accused of faking when everything points to it being a genuine injury. Intent is completely irrelevant. We've seen players knocked out from the same level of contact. You've decided that because you think there wasn't much in it, the reaction was therefore faking and not actually evidence you might be wrong.

Has anyone argued with torq about decisions over the course of the game, or is that another thing you've decided you've seen?

It really is a case of you right, everyone else wrong when you get involved in a debate on here isn't it.
My impression is based on what I saw and also the rather pathetic sight of a pro sportsman holding his jaw like a slapped pantomime dame in order to draw attention to the incident. If the incident had been anything like you are describing it would have been a straight red, but funnily enough it wasn't so presumably the officials impression might have been similar to mine.
I'm one of the most vocal posters on here in support of player safety but I despise any player that tries to game those rules to gain an advantage and in my opinion that was a prime example.

As to the second point, just highlighting that Quins hardly had any great right to complain about a debatable incident at the end that you seemed to take exception to.

[Kawazaki]

Earl got a red card for less than what Ibitoye got a yellow for.

The inconsistency is maddening. For mine, neither Earl or Ibitoye deserved any colour card.

[sockwithaticket]

No but on a pretty poor officiating effort by Dickson (repeatedly picked up on in commentary), Quins got the rub overall. Blatant fwd pass for the 2nd try.

I haven't see this game, but with Ridley doing Tigers - Glaws and Dickson getting this one PRL/RFU are messing up. It's a reasonable thing for some ex-players to pursue becoming officials, but they should not be allowed to officiate their former club(s). At least not as the ref or TMO. There are enough officials on the books that it shouldn't be necessary.

Dickson isn't biased towards Quins, given some of the horror shows he's put in before that have hurt us. He is however miles out of his depth at this level.

It's more about the look of thing, which is worse still for how deeply unnecessary it is. I'm certain that you could put most international refs in charge of a match featuring their own nation and they'd do a fine job of remaining neutral, but we don't allow it because the appearance of impartiality is as important as actually being so.

[JM2K6]

I've got no skin in the game, if anything I've always followed Quins. I honestly think you are being a bit hysterical about it, it was a foul yes, but there was little if any real intent in it. I presume the "everyone else" is the Quins crowd oohing and aahing at the replays to influence the ref. I'm with Torq for once, anyone disputing that Quins didn't get the better of the decisions is taking the piss. .

I don't particularly like it when players are accused of faking when everything points to it being a genuine injury. Intent is completely irrelevant. We've seen players knocked out from the same level of contact. You've decided that because you think there wasn't much in it, the reaction was therefore faking and not actually evidence you might be wrong.

Has anyone argued with torq about decisions over the course of the game, or is that another thing you've decided you've seen?

It really is a case of you right, everyone else wrong when you get involved in a debate on here isn't it.
My impression is based on what I saw and also the rather pathetic sight of a pro sportsman holding his jaw like a slapped pantomime dame in order to draw attention to the incident. If the incident had been anything like you are describing it would have been a straight red, but funnily enough it wasn't so presumably the officials impression might have been similar to mine.
I'm one of the most vocal posters on here in support of player safety but I despise any player that tries to game those rules to gain an advantage and in my opinion that was a prime example.

As to the second point, just highlighting that Quins hardly had any great right to complain about a debatable incident at the end that you seemed to take exception to.

Mine isn't the minority opinion on this, you're the one who's decided that he was faking injury. It wasn't a straight red because of the reasons given by the ref, but the commentary team did raise the possibility that it could have been. My point is really straightforward: I think it was an obvious shoulder to the jaw and you're being a bit of a cunt by claiming he milked it by holding his jaw. You've got up on your high horse over some simulation no one else believes occurred - claiming I'm taking the "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" angle is hilariously hypocritical.

I didn't take exception to anything at the end, I asked a question and made no more comment on it. Again, you're seeing what you want to see. I agree with Torq's take on it and it would've been hugely surprising had it been penalised.

[Blackmac]

Earl got a red card for less than what Ibitoye got a yellow for.

The inconsistency is maddening. For mine, neither Earl or Ibitoye deserved any colour card.

Absolutely no doubt regarding the inconsistency, and I think that's what leads to so much debate.

[Blackmac]

I don't particularly like it when players are accused of faking when everything points to it being a genuine injury. Intent is completely irrelevant. We've seen players knocked out from the same level of contact. You've decided that because you think there wasn't much in it, the reaction was therefore faking and not actually evidence you might be wrong.

Has anyone argued with torq about decisions over the course of the game, or is that another thing you've decided you've seen?

It really is a case of you right, everyone else wrong when you get involved in a debate on here isn't it.
My impression is based on what I saw and also the rather pathetic sight of a pro sportsman holding his jaw like a slapped pantomime dame in order to draw attention to the incident. If the incident had been anything like you are describing it would have been a straight red, but funnily enough it wasn't so presumably the officials impression might have been similar to mine.
I'm one of the most vocal posters on here in support of player safety but I despise any player that tries to game those rules to gain an advantage and in my opinion that was a prime example.

As to the second point, just highlighting that Quins hardly had any great right to complain about a debatable incident at the end that you seemed to take exception to.

Mine isn't the minority opinion on this, you're the one who's decided that he was faking injury. It wasn't a straight red because of the reasons given by the ref, but the commentary team did raise the possibility that it could have been. My point is really straightforward: I think it was an obvious shoulder to the jaw and you're being a bit of a cunt by claiming he milked it by holding his jaw. You've got up on your high horse over some simulation no one else believes occurred - claiming I'm taking the "I'm right and everyone else is wrong" angle is hilariously hypocritical.

I didn't take exception to anything at the end, I asked a question and made no more comment on it. Again, you're seeing what you want to see. I agree with Torq's take on it and it would've been hugely surprising had it been penalised.

You really need to take a long hard look at how seriously you take this place you pompous arse. You would argue black is white at the drop of a hat and now, after a pretty straightforward and polite debate you are calling me a cunt.

I've no doubt, if I had your sad mindset, I could produce many incidents of you questioning simulation over the years. Get a grip of yourself you fool.

[JM2K6]

Well, you are being a bit of a cunt. Sorry.

[Kawazaki]

Let bygones be bygones in this festive period and thank your lucky stars that you're not Welsh.

[SaintK]

Marler evidently being a pr*ck again.

A prick indeed

Harlequins prop Joe Marler has publicly apologised to Bristol flanker Jake Heenan for the comments that triggered a fracas during the two sides’ Gallagher Premiership game at the Stoop yesterday.
Andy Goode wrote: “Anyone know what Joe Marler said to infuriate Jake Heenan and Yann Thomas? Marler looked a bit sheepish after it kicked off…”, to which Bristol player Steven Luatua replied: “I only found out on the way home. You & I would’ve done the same. That was absolute bullsh%t from Marler.”
Luatua later publicly asked Marler to apologise to Heenan and Marler duly obliged, writing on Twitter: “Yep. You’re right. I’m sorry @HeenanJake – piss poor from me. Owe you a pint/coffee in the new year.”

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/what-j ... eenan/

[sockwithaticket]

Supposedly it was "Your mum's a whore". Heenan's mum is apparently in hospital at the moment so it was particularly poorly received. I doubt Marler knew that when he said it unless he puts a lot more effort into researching his sledging than I'd given him credit for.

The Times ran a piece saying he could pick up a ban, but that seemed speculative based on what's theoretically possible with sportsmanship/verbal abuse laws. I think it'd be a dangerous precedent to set that you can ban someone for being a dickhead.

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, more utterly boring carry on from Marler, who really needs to stfu sometimes.

That said, a banning would be interesting. There's probably similar stuff said occasionally in the thick of it throughout the season that hasnt got the same attention. If it's a banning offence, then fine (and I'd have no sympathy for him), just as long as it's consistent.

[GogLais]

Let bygones be bygones in this festive period and thank your lucky stars that you're not Welsh.

Damn right, we don’t want it devalued.

[SaintK]

Supposedly it was "Your mum's a whore". Heenan's mum is apparently in hospital at the moment so it was particularly poorly received. I doubt Marler knew that when he said it unless he puts a lot more effort into researching his sledging than I'd given him credit for.

The Times ran a piece saying he could pick up a ban, but that seemed speculative based on what's theoretically possible with sportsmanship/verbal abuse laws. I think it'd be a dangerous precedent to set that you can ban someone for being a dickhead.

The apology should suffice

[fishfoodie]

Yeah, more utterly boring carry on from Marler, who really needs to stfu sometimes.

That said, a banning would be interesting. There's probably similar stuff said occasionally in the thick of it throughout the season that hasnt got the same attention. If it's a banning offence, then fine (and I'd have no sympathy for him), just as long as it's consistent.

Back before Professionalism, he could have extracted his retribution, then & there, & Marler would have shit teeth for a few days; but now the players know they're under surveillance at all times, & there's nothing left to them, but to go thru the official sanctions path, & that means bans & fines etc.

[Torquemada 1420]

Marler evidently being a pr*ck again.

A prick indeed

Harlequins prop Joe Marler has publicly apologised to Bristol flanker Jake Heenan for the comments that triggered a fracas during the two sides’ Gallagher Premiership game at the Stoop yesterday.
Andy Goode wrote: “Anyone know what Joe Marler said to infuriate Jake Heenan and Yann Thomas? Marler looked a bit sheepish after it kicked off…”, to which Bristol player Steven Luatua replied: “I only found out on the way home. You & I would’ve done the same. That was absolute bullsh%t from Marler.”
Luatua later publicly asked Marler to apologise to Heenan and Marler duly obliged, writing on Twitter: “Yep. You’re right. I’m sorry @HeenanJake – piss poor from me. Owe you a pint/coffee in the new year.”

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/what-j ... eenan/

The man is an embarrassment.

[Tichtheid]

Yeah, more utterly boring carry on from Marler, who really needs to stfu sometimes.

That said, a banning would be interesting. There's probably similar stuff said occasionally in the thick of it throughout the season that hasnt got the same attention. If it's a banning offence, then fine (and I'd have no sympathy for him), just as long as it's consistent.

Back before Professionalism, he could have extracted his retribution, then & there, & Marler would have shit teeth for a few days; but now the players know they're under surveillance at all times, & there's nothing left to them, but to go thru the official sanctions path, & that means bans & fines etc.

Before professionalism that sort of thing wouldn't have been said, because of the retribution you mention, and also because it just wasn't done, that would have been far too pathetic of a thing to say.

I hate the cheapness of that, the head pats, the celebrating of a penalty decision like it's Jonny Wilkinson dropping a goal to win a World Cup (who didn't go full arsehole at doing that either, btw, he has too much class for that).

Rugby is becoming low-rent.

The way to stop it is to insist that the "against the spirit of the game" law is enforced.
Ban them, fine them. Then their bad behaviour will change.

[Kawazaki]

The way to stop it is to insist that the "against the spirit of the game" law is enforced.
Ban them, fine them. Then their bad behaviour will change.

Carley penalised Saracens for over-celebrating a try against London Irish. Mind you, Carley would penalise Saracens for 'coughing without due care and attention' and 'loitering with intent to catch a pass' given half a chance.

[SaintK]

Being a prick is s stretch. Did a Your Ma joke and the lads mother was in hospital. Hardly the end of the world or the beginning of the end of the world. I once made a your ma joke to a lad whose mum had just died. Now that was ropey but due to a lack of intent I have forgiven myself

Aaah, but has the lad forgiven you?

[weegie01]

Back before Professionalism, he could have extracted his retribution, then & there, & Marler would have shit teeth for a few days; but now the players know they're under surveillance at all times, & there's nothing left to them, but to go thru the official sanctions path, & that means bans & fines etc.

Before professionalism that sort of thing wouldn't have been said, because of the retribution you mention, and also because it just wasn't done, that would have been far too pathetic of a thing to say.

I hate the cheapness of that, the head pats, the celebrating of a penalty decision like it's Jonny Wilkinson dropping a goal to win a World Cup (who didn't go full arsehole at doing that either, btw, he has too much class for that).

Rugby is becoming low-rent.

The way to stop it is to insist that the "against the spirit of the game" law is enforced.
Ban them, fine them. Then their bad behaviour will change.

That's patently untrue. There have been verbals for ever including pretty dodgy ones

Of course verbals have gone on forever, but there was a line, and if you crossed that line a punch would follow. Players self enforced the line, now no one does so all sorts of petty behaviour happens, and dickheads get full reign to be dickheads with impunity.

[Paddington Bear]

Yeah, more utterly boring carry on from Marler, who really needs to stfu sometimes.

That said, a banning would be interesting. There's probably similar stuff said occasionally in the thick of it throughout the season that hasnt got the same attention. If it's a banning offence, then fine (and I'd have no sympathy for him), just as long as it's consistent.

Back before Professionalism, he could have extracted his retribution, then & there, & Marler would have shit teeth for a few days; but now the players know they're under surveillance at all times, & there's nothing left to them, but to go thru the official sanctions path, & that means bans & fines etc.

Before professionalism that sort of thing wouldn't have been said, because of the retribution you mention, and also because it just wasn't done, that would have been far too pathetic of a thing to say.

I hate the cheapness of that, the head pats, the celebrating of a penalty decision like it's Jonny Wilkinson dropping a goal to win a World Cup (who didn't go full arsehole at doing that either, btw, he has too much class for that).

Rugby is becoming low-rent.

The way to stop it is to insist that the "against the spirit of the game" law is enforced.
Ban them, fine them. Then their bad behaviour will change.

IMO this is a consequence of violence going out the game. That means:
1) There are basically zero consequences for acting like a twat, and
2) The 'cheap shot' that gets a rise and buys a penalty has been replaced with something verbal instead.

[SaintK]

Well this is a shame.
McFarland was one of my players of the season so far

Saracens forward Theo McFarland is set to miss the rest of the season after suffering an anterior cruciate ligament injury in training.
The 27-year-old suffered the injury before Friday's defeat by London Irish.
"Everyone knows, not how difficult it is to come back from an ACL, but how painstaking the process is," said Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall.