The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

Are we the only country that's used the 3-year-dormancy rule so far (Dempsey)?

Anyway, I think I'd rather have Maitland back on the field, although tbf I don't know much about McConnachie.

Namibia are using it to get Byron McGuigan. That’s the only one I’ve heard so far, but to be fair I may have heard it just because he used to be with us

Ah yes, right enough. I have to say I'm a little surprised we're not being castigated for it as we do whenever we 'poach' someone through the granny or residency rules. Although I've not been on the other place for a good while, they may be frothing about Dempsey/McConnachie over there?

I don't think it's in the spirit of the new rules for a nation inside the top 10 to be picking up players who used to play for other top 10 teams, but like JMK said it's not as though McConnochie is a massive loss to England, so it's not worth getting worked up about. If anyone should be annoyed it's Bath fans who've barely seen him of late due to injuries and are now likely to get even less use out of him.

[Jock42]

[Tichtheid]

[fishfoodie]

It is quite interesting that on their site almost all the Munster fans are wishing Healy well, and totally understand his decision.

I think fans understand that a player only has a limited time in their career, & at any time they could get an injury, & that's that.

Ask them about what it says about the way the SRU is running the game, & you'll get a distinctly less sympathatic reaction.

The rule change was to help the PI nations to recover some of the players they lose to NZ, Oz & France etc; not to help a Tier 1 Country that can't setup it's own pathways.

[fishfoodie]

It is quite interesting that on their site almost all the Munster fans are wishing Healy well, and totally understand his decision.

That's because they blame the IRFU and Leinster and its something else for them to be bitter about. To be honest I'd say they are delighted about it all

True Dat !

The Munster crew love the idea that they are victims of some vast conspiracy; & that they aren't just victims of their own incompetance; there's a lot of that going around at the mo'

I've commented a few times about the importance having a modest, but appropiate sized stadium, & Unions/Teams, cutting their cloth; Munster built a very nice new stadium, & neglected their academy, & feeder systems, & loaded themselves up with debt instead.

Leinster have won the HEC four times, but they're still renting their main stadium.

[Yr Alban]

It is quite interesting that on their site almost all the Munster fans are wishing Healy well, and totally understand his decision.

That's because they blame the IRFU and Leinster and its something else for them to be bitter about. To be honest I'd say they are delighted about it all

True Dat !

The Munster crew love the idea that they are victims of some vast conspiracy; & that they aren't just victims of their own incompetance; there's a lot of that going around at the mo'

I've commented a few times about the importance having a modest, but appropiate sized stadium, & Unions/Teams, cutting their cloth; Munster built a very nice new stadium, & neglected their academy, & feeder systems, & loaded themselves up with debt instead.

Leinster have won the HEC four times, but they're still renting their main stadium.

That’s a microcosm of the fortunes of Ireland and Scotland since the game went pro. The SRU had just gone hugely into debt to rebuild Murrayfield, and had very little funding with which to set up pro teams. The IRFU had dithered for years about Lansdowne Rd, and were able to properly fund the provincial teams, who had some early success, and they were able to build on that.

Nobody’s fault, just the way it panned out. But spectacularly bad luck for Scotland.

[Tichtheid]

It is quite interesting that on their site almost all the Munster fans are wishing Healy well, and totally understand his decision.

I think fans understand that a player only has a limited time in their career, & at any time they could get an injury, & that's that.

Ask them about what it says about the way the SRU is running the game, & you'll get a distinctly less sympathatic reaction.

The rule change was to help the PI nations to recover some of the players they lose to NZ, Oz & France etc; not to help a Tier 1 Country that can't setup it's own pathways.

That rule doesn't apply in Healy's case though, or am I misunderstanding how you structured that post?

I'm in two minds about the change of nation rule being exploited by Tier 1 nations, on the one hand I'm fully committed to the idea of freedom of movement for work, on the other it's a pretty cynical abuse of a rule that was designed to help the PI nations, as you say, and it's bollocks for Scotland to be doing it.
Dempsey has been very good, excellent, for Glasgow, but he shouldn't be playing for Scotland. I don't buy the idea that everyone else would do it so we should.

Having said all that, I think Isa Nacewa will be mightily pissed off with the timing of it all.

[Slick]

It is quite interesting that on their site almost all the Munster fans are wishing Healy well, and totally understand his decision.

I think fans understand that a player only has a limited time in their career, & at any time they could get an injury, & that's that.

Ask them about what it says about the way the SRU is running the game, & you'll get a distinctly less sympathatic reaction.

The rule change was to help the PI nations to recover some of the players they lose to NZ, Oz & France etc; not to help a Tier 1 Country that can't setup it's own pathways.

That rule doesn't apply in Healy's case though, or am I misunderstanding how you structured that post?

I'm in two minds about the change of nation rule being exploited by Tier 1 nations, on the one hand I'm fully committed to the idea of freedom of movement for work, on the other it's a pretty cynical abuse of a rule that was designed to help the PI nations, as you say, and it's bollocks for Scotland to be doing it.
Dempsey has been very good, excellent, for Glasgow, but he shouldn't be playing for Scotland. I don't buy the idea that everyone else would do it so we should.

Having said all that, I think Isa Nacewa will be mightily pissed off with the timing of it all.

Whilst I probably agree broadly with that I do think it should be taken into account that Scotland has tiny playing numbers compared to all the other T1 nations and similar to places like Samoa and Fiji. The fact that we are able to compete at T1 level is actually pretty impressive but in the modern game I think we have to use these rules to stay up there to some extent.

[Tichtheid]

I think fans understand that a player only has a limited time in their career, & at any time they could get an injury, & that's that.

Ask them about what it says about the way the SRU is running the game, & you'll get a distinctly less sympathatic reaction.

The rule change was to help the PI nations to recover some of the players they lose to NZ, Oz & France etc; not to help a Tier 1 Country that can't setup it's own pathways.

That rule doesn't apply in Healy's case though, or am I misunderstanding how you structured that post?

I'm in two minds about the change of nation rule being exploited by Tier 1 nations, on the one hand I'm fully committed to the idea of freedom of movement for work, on the other it's a pretty cynical abuse of a rule that was designed to help the PI nations, as you say, and it's bollocks for Scotland to be doing it.
Dempsey has been very good, excellent, for Glasgow, but he shouldn't be playing for Scotland. I don't buy the idea that everyone else would do it so we should.

Having said all that, I think Isa Nacewa will be mightily pissed off with the timing of it all.

Whilst I probably agree broadly with that I do think it should be taken into account that Scotland has tiny playing numbers compared to all the other T1 nations and similar to places like Samoa and Fiji. The fact that we are able to compete at T1 level is actually pretty impressive but in the modern game I think we have to use these rules to stay up there to some extent.

If Dempsey wasn't there we could have a back row with Watson and Ritchie as the starters along with one of, and in no particular order, Fagerson, Bayliss, Bradbury as those with lots of experience at playing 8, plus Muncaster, Darge, Crosbie, Christie.

Whilst it wouldn't be huge back row, we are not that short in the department.

[C T]

No. 8 has been a problem for Scotland though, so I can understand Dempsey. Fagerson is coming along nicely to be fai to him but a bit of depth won't hurt.

There is also a part of this rule I think to get the best players playing. If a player can add something to the international scene it's a bit daft having them watching on TV because they're tied to a team that is no longer interested in them.

I say all of this, but the reality is the Dempsey and particularly McConnochie does hurt my soul.

[SaintK]

The most interesting thing about the Ruaridh McConnochie selection is just how little rugby he's played in the past 3 seasons to date!!
22 starts in 27 matches and a lot of time out injured. Not sure he's even first choice wing when Muir and Cokanasiga are both available.

[sockwithaticket]

I think fans understand that a player only has a limited time in their career, & at any time they could get an injury, & that's that.

Ask them about what it says about the way the SRU is running the game, & you'll get a distinctly less sympathatic reaction.

The rule change was to help the PI nations to recover some of the players they lose to NZ, Oz & France etc; not to help a Tier 1 Country that can't setup it's own pathways.

That rule doesn't apply in Healy's case though, or am I misunderstanding how you structured that post?

I'm in two minds about the change of nation rule being exploited by Tier 1 nations, on the one hand I'm fully committed to the idea of freedom of movement for work, on the other it's a pretty cynical abuse of a rule that was designed to help the PI nations, as you say, and it's bollocks for Scotland to be doing it.
Dempsey has been very good, excellent, for Glasgow, but he shouldn't be playing for Scotland. I don't buy the idea that everyone else would do it so we should.

Having said all that, I think Isa Nacewa will be mightily pissed off with the timing of it all.

Whilst I probably agree broadly with that I do think it should be taken into account that Scotland has tiny playing numbers compared to all the other T1 nations and similar to places like Samoa and Fiji. The fact that we are able to compete at T1 level is actually pretty impressive but in the modern game I think we have to use these rules to stay up there to some extent.

Fiji I'll give you, but Samoa is tiny, population of 200k

[Tichtheid]

The most interesting thing about the Ruaridh McConnochie selection is just how little rugby he's played in the past 3 seasons to date!!
22 starts in 27 matches and a lot of time out injured. Not sure he's even first choice wing when Muir and Cokanasiga are both available.

I wonder how close he is to selection for Scotland. Darcy Graham and Kyle Rowe are injured, so that bumps everyone up a peg. Van Der Merwe has one wing sown up, so there is one spot plus perhaps a bench place for someone, but the bench won't go to an out and out winger.

We have Sean Maitland, who may be a yard short of his best pace, but he is one of the most intelligent rugby players I've seen. Ollie Smith is looking like heir apparent to Stuart Hogg, but can equally play on the wing. Blair Kinghorn was hailed as the quickest player in the Scotland squad, he has his failings, but he has 38 international caps, with a good few on the wing. Steyn is also in the squad.

I was lamenting the fact McConnochie wasn't playing for us several years ago when he was looking very good. I haven't seen him play for ages.

[Jock42]

Have just noticed no Bradbury. How's he been playing?

[Tichtheid]

That rule doesn't apply in Healy's case though, or am I misunderstanding how you structured that post?

I'm in two minds about the change of nation rule being exploited by Tier 1 nations, on the one hand I'm fully committed to the idea of freedom of movement for work, on the other it's a pretty cynical abuse of a rule that was designed to help the PI nations, as you say, and it's bollocks for Scotland to be doing it.
Dempsey has been very good, excellent, for Glasgow, but he shouldn't be playing for Scotland. I don't buy the idea that everyone else would do it so we should.

Having said all that, I think Isa Nacewa will be mightily pissed off with the timing of it all.

Whilst I probably agree broadly with that I do think it should be taken into account that Scotland has tiny playing numbers compared to all the other T1 nations and similar to places like Samoa and Fiji. The fact that we are able to compete at T1 level is actually pretty impressive but in the modern game I think we have to use these rules to stay up there to some extent.

Fiji I'll give you, but Samoa is tiny, population of 200k

The numbers are always difficult to verify, but a quick Google suggests that both countries have the same number of clubs (143 v 140) and 23.5K players in Samoa v 38.5K in Scotland

I know the Scotland figures include everyone who has played for Wester Hailes Accies thirds once.

Without looking this up, I would guess Edinburgh and Glasgow have around 30 - 35 SQ players each, plus the academy lads.
Then there are ex-pats and SQ players like Ben White and Josh Bayliss

Around 100 pro players tops, I would reckon.

[charltom]

That rule doesn't apply in Healy's case though, or am I misunderstanding how you structured that post?

I'm in two minds about the change of nation rule being exploited by Tier 1 nations, on the one hand I'm fully committed to the idea of freedom of movement for work, on the other it's a pretty cynical abuse of a rule that was designed to help the PI nations, as you say, and it's bollocks for Scotland to be doing it.
Dempsey has been very good, excellent, for Glasgow, but he shouldn't be playing for Scotland. I don't buy the idea that everyone else would do it so we should.

Having said all that, I think Isa Nacewa will be mightily pissed off with the timing of it all.

Whilst I probably agree broadly with that I do think it should be taken into account that Scotland has tiny playing numbers compared to all the other T1 nations and similar to places like Samoa and Fiji. The fact that we are able to compete at T1 level is actually pretty impressive but in the modern game I think we have to use these rules to stay up there to some extent.

Fiji I'll give you, but Samoa is tiny, population of 200k

And yet...

Official player numbers in Samoa are 23372, and in Scotland 38500. Same order of magnitude.

Others for comparison:
Belgium 14266
Canada 23853
Chile 18755
Fiji 36030
Italy 66176
India 22282
Kenya 42904
Japan 122368 (!)
Madagascar 22540
Malaysia 60030
Namibia 14226
Russia 14519
Spain 20016
Sri Lanka 103325 (!)
Swaziland 18920
Thailand 17732
Tunisia 16218
Uganda 14110
Wales 50557
Zimbabwe 22163

Countries with much bigger numbers:
Argentina 102790
Australia 86952
England 1990988 (!)
France 360847
Ireland 153080
Italy, Japan, Malaysia and Sri Lanka as above
New Zealand 146893
South Africa 651146
USA 457983(!)

It is a miracle how well Scotland do, considering. And Wales, for that matter (although I am surprised how low their numbers are).

[Jock42]

The most interesting thing about the Ruaridh McConnochie selection is just how little rugby he's played in the past 3 seasons to date!!
22 starts in 27 matches and a lot of time out injured. Not sure he's even first choice wing when Muir and Cokanasiga are both available.

I wonder how close he is to selection for Scotland. Darcy Graham and Kyle Rowe are injured, so that bumps everyone up a peg. Van Der Merwe has one wing sown up, so there is one spot plus perhaps a bench place for someone, but the bench won't go to an out and out winger.

We have Sean Maitland, who may be a yard short of his best pace, but he is one of the most intelligent rugby players I've seen. Ollie Smith is looking like heir apparent to Stuart Hogg, but can equally play on the wing. Blair Kinghorn was hailed as the quickest player in the Scotland squad, he has his failings, but he has 38 international caps, with a good few on the wing. Steyn is also in the squad.

I was lamenting the fact McConnochie wasn't playing for us several years ago when he was looking very good. I haven't seen him play for ages.

I really don't see him playing unless there's another couple of injuries. Kinghorn to start with Healy and Smith on the bench.

[Slick]

The most interesting thing about the Ruaridh McConnochie selection is just how little rugby he's played in the past 3 seasons to date!!
22 starts in 27 matches and a lot of time out injured. Not sure he's even first choice wing when Muir and Cokanasiga are both available.

I wonder how close he is to selection for Scotland. Darcy Graham and Kyle Rowe are injured, so that bumps everyone up a peg. Van Der Merwe has one wing sown up, so there is one spot plus perhaps a bench place for someone, but the bench won't go to an out and out winger.

We have Sean Maitland, who may be a yard short of his best pace, but he is one of the most intelligent rugby players I've seen. Ollie Smith is looking like heir apparent to Stuart Hogg, but can equally play on the wing. Blair Kinghorn was hailed as the quickest player in the Scotland squad, he has his failings, but he has 38 international caps, with a good few on the wing. Steyn is also in the squad.

I was lamenting the fact McConnochie wasn't playing for us several years ago when he was looking very good. I haven't seen him play for ages.

Yeah, I just don't get it. It's highly unlikely, IMO, that he is going to get near a match day squad so why not have a youngster in there. In saying that, Toony was talking very highly of him yesterday, so who knows.

[Tichtheid]

as an aside, the Embra fans FB page has good wishes for van der Merwe and the future Mrs van der Merwe who are tying the knot at the weekend.

Presumably that means he won't be playing on Sunday.

[ASMO]

Whilst I probably agree broadly with that I do think it should be taken into account that Scotland has tiny playing numbers compared to all the other T1 nations and similar to places like Samoa and Fiji. The fact that we are able to compete at T1 level is actually pretty impressive but in the modern game I think we have to use these rules to stay up there to some extent.

Fiji I'll give you, but Samoa is tiny, population of 200k

And yet...

Official player numbers in Samoa are 23372, and in Scotland 38500. Same order of magnitude.

Others for comparison:
Belgium 14266
Canada 23853
Chile 18755
Fiji 36030
Italy 66176
India 22282
Kenya 42904
Japan 122368 (!)
Madagascar 22540
Malaysia 60030
Namibia 14226
Russia 14519
Spain 20016
Sri Lanka 103325 (!)
Swaziland 18920
Thailand 17732
Tunisia 16218
Uganda 14110
Wales 50557
Zimbabwe 22163

Countries with much bigger numbers:
Argentina 102790
Australia 86952
England 1990988 (!)
France 360847
Ireland 153080
Italy, Japan, Malaysia and Sri Lanka as above
New Zealand 146893
South Africa 651146
USA 457983(!)

It is a miracle how well Scotland do, considering. And Wales, for that matter (although I am surprised how low their numbers are).

without going through the ballache of adding those up, looks like England have more than the rest of the world combined?

[charltom]

Fiji I'll give you, but Samoa is tiny, population of 200k

And yet...

Official player numbers in Samoa are 23372, and in Scotland 38500. Same order of magnitude.

Others for comparison:
Belgium 14266
Canada 23853
Chile 18755
Fiji 36030
Italy 66176
India 22282
Kenya 42904
Japan 122368 (!)
Madagascar 22540
Malaysia 60030
Namibia 14226
Russia 14519
Spain 20016
Sri Lanka 103325 (!)
Swaziland 18920
Thailand 17732
Tunisia 16218
Uganda 14110
Wales 50557
Zimbabwe 22163

Countries with much bigger numbers:
Argentina 102790
Australia 86952
England 1990988 (!)
France 360847
Ireland 153080
Italy, Japan, Malaysia and Sri Lanka as above
New Zealand 146893
South Africa 651146
USA 457983(!)

It is a miracle how well Scotland do, considering. And Wales, for that matter (although I am surprised how low their numbers are).

without going through the ballache of adding those up, looks like England have more than the rest of the world combined?

Not quite, but they really ought to be making more of the huge numbers they have.

[Slick]

Oh no charltom, what have you done.....

JMK in 3,2,1...

[SaintK]

Have just noticed no Bradbury. How's he been playing?

Pretty well in what is currently a poor performing Bristol

[charltom]

Oh no charltom, what have you done.....

JMK in 3,2,1...

Hee hee.

BTW was it KingBlairhorn or Yr Alban who was getting a 403 forbidden message? I got two of those just now, when trying to use smileys. Did you have emojis in your post?

[Jock42]

Yeah, I just don't get it. It's highly unlikely, IMO, that he is going to get near a match day squad so why not have a youngster in there. In saying that, Toony was talking very highly of him yesterday, so who knows.

Aye but it's not as if he can say "he's a mediocre 31 yo who has never wanted to play for us before". I don't think he'd be there if it wasn't a WC year and there were already 2 injuries. The only reason he'll get a cap (if he gets one) is to tie him in for the WC. At least Healy is being seen as a long term option.

[Jock42]

Have just noticed no Bradbury. How's he been playing?

Pretty well in what is currently a poor performing Bristol

That figures. Cheers.

[sockwithaticket]

Whilst I probably agree broadly with that I do think it should be taken into account that Scotland has tiny playing numbers compared to all the other T1 nations and similar to places like Samoa and Fiji. The fact that we are able to compete at T1 level is actually pretty impressive but in the modern game I think we have to use these rules to stay up there to some extent.

Fiji I'll give you, but Samoa is tiny, population of 200k

And yet...

Official player numbers in Samoa are 23372, and in Scotland 38500. Same order of magnitude.

Others for comparison:
Belgium 14266
Canada 23853
Chile 18755
Fiji 36030
Italy 66176
India 22282
Kenya 42904
Japan 122368 (!)
Madagascar 22540
Malaysia 60030
Namibia 14226
Russia 14519
Spain 20016
Sri Lanka 103325 (!)
Swaziland 18920
Thailand 17732
Tunisia 16218
Uganda 14110
Wales 50557
Zimbabwe 22163

Countries with much bigger numbers:
Argentina 102790
Australia 86952
England 1990988 (!)
France 360847
Ireland 153080
Italy, Japan, Malaysia and Sri Lanka as above
New Zealand 146893
South Africa 651146
USA 457983(!)

It is a miracle how well Scotland do, considering. And Wales, for that matter (although I am surprised how low their numbers are).

Where are your numbers from? Not that they include any source, but The Rugby Paper had Fiji at about quadruple the number you've listed. Which presumably has to include women as well, it'd be about 13 - 14% of their total population. The numbers you have for, say, England and USA are also waaaay higher than TRP's

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/guest-b ... -to-know/

[Tichtheid]

Have just noticed no Bradbury. How's he been playing?

Pretty well in what is currently a poor performing Bristol

That figures. Cheers.

Bradbury was never consistent at Edinburgh, when he broke through he looked to have all the tools, he's a big strong guy with bags of pace, carries very hard and has good hands.

He just seemed to go missing in games, Toonie likes the real workhorses (as he should), I that has counted against Bradbury.

[Jock42]

Pretty well in what is currently a poor performing Bristol

That figures. Cheers.

Bradbury was never consistent at Edinburgh, when he broke through he looked to have all the tools, he's a big strong guy with bags of pace, carries very hard and has good hands.

He just seemed to go missing in games, Toonie likes the real workhorses (as he should), I that has counted against Bradbury.

Maybe he should switch to 10

[charltom]

Fiji I'll give you, but Samoa is tiny, population of 200k

And yet...

Player numbers in Samoa are 23372, and in Scotland 38500. Same order of magnitude.

Others for comparison:
Belgium 14266
Canada 23853
Chile 18755
Fiji 36030
Italy 66176
India 22282
Kenya 42904
Japan 122368 (!)
Madagascar 22540
Malaysia 60030
Namibia 14226
Russia 14519
Spain 20016
Sri Lanka 103325 (!)
Swaziland 18920
Thailand 17732
Tunisia 16218
Uganda 14110
Wales 50557
Zimbabwe 22163

Countries with much bigger numbers:
Argentina 102790
Australia 86952
England 1990988 (!)
France 360847
Ireland 153080
Italy, Japan, Malaysia and Sri Lanka as above
New Zealand 146893
South Africa 651146
USA 457983(!)

It is a miracle how well Scotland do, considering. And Wales, for that matter (although I am surprised how low their numbers are).

Where are your numbers from? Not that they include any source, but The Rugby Paper had Fiji at about quadruple the number you've listed. Which presumably has to include women as well, it'd be about 13 - 14% of their total population. The numbers you have for, say, England and USA are also waaaay higher than TRP's

https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/guest-b ... -to-know/

Oh I did loads of research and looked at Wikipedia. They looked at World Rugby data. I can see that the registered player numbers are different from the overall player numbers, but the point is about where Scotland sits in the list, which is 15th according to both sources.

[inactionman]

Pretty well in what is currently a poor performing Bristol

That figures. Cheers.

Bradbury was never consistent at Edinburgh, when he broke through he looked to have all the tools, he's a big strong guy with bags of pace, carries very hard and has good hands.

He just seemed to go missing in games, Toonie likes the real workhorses (as he should), I that has counted against Bradbury.

When I first moved up to Edinburgh - 5 years ago now - I bought a season ticket for Edinburgh. Just watching attack, I could have sworn Bradbury was a winger. Not sure if it was Cockerill wanting some beef out wide or Bradbury just liked seagulling. Big Bill did all the heavy carrying.

[JM2K6]

RIGHT YOU BASTARDS

honestly I only talk about this stuff because 4071 doesn't post here, but basically to repeat myself: England's player numbers are absolute bullshit with individuals counted multiple times in some cases, guys who signed up at uni and mostly drank, others who've never actually played a game, LITERAL CHILDREN, the entirety of the women's game through all ages, and a heap of guesswork. IIRC some major public body rebuked the RFU at one point for the fiddled stats as it was done in service of getting extra funding (from the lottery, maybe?). Sadly the links & details backing this all up are on the other site somewhere and I'm not touching that with a bargepole, and my memory is dogshit.

There is absolutely no way that we have that many players. It makes no sense whatsoever, particularly when you compare with a country like France - 12m more people than England - where rugby is genuinely overwhelmingly popular in large areas, has municipal backing, etc etc. France has ~1800 rugby clubs. According to this person's research: https://thematchreport.co.uk/2021/05/27 ... ish-rugby/ (good link btw) England has 1,249 (not 1809 as claimed on Wiki). There is absolutely no way that England's numbers aren't inflated by like 3-4x.

I will say that this link sheds some light on one source of the confusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... _countries

Take a look at the number of registered players. England are 5th. Now take a look at the numbers for U13s boys & girls. Fuck knows how that's recorded, but that's more than 1.1m of that 1.9m right there. Look, I won't lie, if there's ever an U13 world cup I will be bitterly disappointed if we don't win it, but I'm not sure these numbers mean anything relevant to us.

On top of that, the huge disparity between "Senior (Adult) Males" and "Registered Players" shows the lie. It's almost like this is all bullshit.

The other comical thing is that the England number only ever seems to go up, which is hilarious to anyone who's ever looked at how poorly amateur clubs are doing, how few sides are being put out compared to their heyday, and the impact of COVID...

None of this should be taken as an attempt to say England aren't a big country with a lot of resources, but there's so much bullshit surrounding our player base. Yeah, we have a lot of clubs, but broadly comparable with SA and France, who both have other advantages we don't have. Dodgy recording of uni kids, retired amateur players, and actual children aside, we're not quite the behemoth we're made out to be, and it's a little mad that France are never the ones people talk about when it comes to the advantages of player base, money, and infrastructure.

[inactionman]

RIGHT YOU BASTARDS

honestly I only talk about this stuff because 4071 doesn't post here, but basically to repeat myself: England's player numbers are absolute bullshit with individuals counted multiple times in some cases, guys who signed up at uni and mostly drank, others who've never actually played a game, LITERAL CHILDREN, the entirety of the women's game through all ages, and a heap of guesswork. IIRC some major public body rebuked the RFU at one point for the fiddled stats as it was done in service of getting extra funding (from the lottery, maybe?). Sadly the links & details backing this all up are on the other site somewhere and I'm not touching that with a bargepole, and my memory is dogshit.

There is absolutely no way that we have that many players. It makes no sense whatsoever, particularly when you compare with a country like France - 12m more people than England - where rugby is genuinely overwhelmingly popular in large areas, has municipal backing, etc etc. France has ~1800 rugby clubs. According to this person's research: https://thematchreport.co.uk/2021/05/27 ... ish-rugby/ (good link btw) England has 1,249 (not 1809 as claimed on Wiki). There is absolutely no way that England's numbers aren't inflated by like 3-4x.

I will say that this link sheds some light on one source of the confusion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... _countries

Take a look at the number of registered players. England are 5th. Now take a look at the numbers for U13s boys & girls. Fuck knows how that's recorded, but that's more than 1.1m of that 1.9m right there. Look, I won't lie, if there's ever an U13 world cup I will be bitterly disappointed if we don't win it, but I'm not sure these numbers mean anything relevant to us.

On top of that, the huge disparity between "Senior (Adult) Males" and "Registered Players" shows the lie. It's almost like this is all bullshit.

The other comical thing is that the England number only ever seems to go up, which is hilarious to anyone who's ever looked at how poorly amateur clubs are doing, how few sides are being put out compared to their heyday, and the impact of COVID...

None of this should be taken as an attempt to say England aren't a big country with a lot of resources, but there's so much bullshit surrounding our player base. Yeah, we have a lot of clubs, but broadly comparable with SA and France, who both have other advantages we don't have. Dodgy recording of uni kids, retired amateur players, and actual children aside, we're not quite the behemoth we're made out to be, and it's a little mad that France are never the ones people talk about when it comes to the advantages of player base, money, and infrastructure.

Yep. My dad is still on the books at his old club, 40 years since he last pulled on a shirt an almost 10 years since he lived in the same county. He pays his subs so he can go to the Christmas reunions and get tickets for HQ.

I haven't played club rugby for over 25 years and I suspect I'm still listed.

[Tichtheid]

The Scottish numbers are similarly misleading, from the 36.5K, 4000 are female players and 21 000 are boys, so it's immediately down to 11.5K before we break down to the numbers who play every week.
https://www.theoffsideline.com/sru-player-numbers/

Just a tiny anecdotal snapshot, when I was at school we played on Saturday morning, when I was in the school first team some of us also played Saturday afternoon in the Colts (U20s ish). Our club, from a town population of 6K, had three regular men's teams plus the Colts, occasionally there would be a fourths if a fixture could be found.

At that time you didn't need replacements.

Now the firsts play in the leagues and a second team very occasionally plays a fixture. There are probably dozens and dozens who have played in the seconds in the last few years who are counted in the 11.5K registered male players.

My club is not alone in this, I think Watsonians are about the the only club I know of who have a turnout which would be recognisable from the days when I played.

[charltom]

So everyone's real playing numbers are way lower than those recorded by WR...

... and maybe France's and SA's numbers are similar to England's... but those two are playing well.

The point here was more that Scotland's number ARE (or appear to be) similar to those of some of the PIs, and there's no shame in Scotland taking advantage of a rule "designed for" the latter, and which has of course allowed a Scotland wing to switch allegiance to another country already.

I wonder who the other players were that called up GT/Scotland, that they didn't already know had become SQ.

[Tichtheid]

I wonder who the other players were that called up GT/Scotland, that they didn't already know had become SQ.

Richie McCaw.

[SaintK]

Take a look at the number of registered players. England are 5th. Now take a look at the numbers for U13s boys & girls. Fuck knows how that's recorded, but that's more than 1.1m of that 1.9m right there. Look, I won't lie, if there's ever an U13 world cup I will be bitterly disappointed if we don't win it, but I'm not sure these numbers mean anything relevant to us.

Every club in the country has to register all mini/junior players with the RFU club database via the Game Management System eachj season. In fact all club male and female players of all ages have to be registered this way My club stll have players registered who retired years ago because nobody can be arsed to use the GMS interface as it is so fucking uselessly clunky

[Yr Alban]

No. 8 has been a problem for Scotland though, so I can understand Dempsey. Fagerson is coming along nicely to be fai to him but a bit of depth won't hurt.

There is also a part of this rule I think to get the best players playing. If a player can add something to the international scene it's a bit daft having them watching on TV because they're tied to a team that is no longer interested in them.

I say all of this, but the reality is the Dempsey and particularly McConnochie does hurt my soul.

I have made my peace with the Dempsey selection. The guy was originally SQ and has made a commitment to Scotland by coming over to play for Glasgow. I’m fairly sure (willing to be corrected) that he was already there prior to what was a really surprising change in the WR eligibility rules that few saw coming. So I am OK with him playing for us.

McConnochie is another matter. With a name like that he has clearly been on the SRU’s radar since forever, and has presumably rejected previous approaches. Unlike Dempsey, he will have had a decision to make and chose England over Scotland, and unlike Dempsey he doesn’t live and play in Scotland. So I find this one a lot more uncomfortable, even if I very much doubt he will get into a match 22.

[Blackmac]

The talk about participation numbers got me googling the most popular participation sports in Scotland. My particular favourite, shinty, came in seventh but the report contained this gem.

"The sport is the traditional game of the Scottish Highlands, and it is still largely played nowadays. The most famous clubs are in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Perth, and Fife"

[Yr Alban]

I think fans understand that a player only has a limited time in their career, & at any time they could get an injury, & that's that.

Ask them about what it says about the way the SRU is running the game, & you'll get a distinctly less sympathatic reaction.

The rule change was to help the PI nations to recover some of the players they lose to NZ, Oz & France etc; not to help a Tier 1 Country that can't setup it's own pathways.

That rule doesn't apply in Healy's case though, or am I misunderstanding how you structured that post?

I'm in two minds about the change of nation rule being exploited by Tier 1 nations, on the one hand I'm fully committed to the idea of freedom of movement for work, on the other it's a pretty cynical abuse of a rule that was designed to help the PI nations, as you say, and it's bollocks for Scotland to be doing it.
Dempsey has been very good, excellent, for Glasgow, but he shouldn't be playing for Scotland. I don't buy the idea that everyone else would do it so we should.

Having said all that, I think Isa Nacewa will be mightily pissed off with the timing of it all.

Whilst I probably agree broadly with that I do think it should be taken into account that Scotland has tiny playing numbers compared to all the other T1 nations and similar to places like Samoa and Fiji. The fact that we are able to compete at T1 level is actually pretty impressive but in the modern game I think we have to use these rules to stay up there to some extent.

In the amateur days, if you had a good first XV, you could win things. In 1990 we used 16 players, with Derek Turnbull coming on as an injury replacement in the final game. Nowadays, with tactical subs, you have to have a strong 22. And add to that the massive increases in S&C, player size, physicality, and the fact players don’t necessarily have to last 80 minutes, which all leads to a massive increase in injuries, and you may well be missing 20% or more of your first picks at any one time. So yes, we need to pick up what we can in order to stay up there.

I also think it’s an important point that people move around more than they used to, and Scotland has been a net exporter of people for centuries. Which means that although we cast our nets wider than some, we are also losing players actually born in Scotland, like Rodd and Roebuck, and we’ve seen players with names like Finlay and Ruairidh (fortunately not Hamish!) called up by England.