The Official English Rugby Thread

[Raggs]

The back 3 certainly looks quite fun though, lots of nice combos to be made from that.

[ASMO]

Yep. Looking forward to seeing Cole starting, Youngs and Farrell back together at 9 and 10, and a rapier-sharp Kelly/Tuilagi midfield

Mako, Tuilagi and Youngs still stinking the place out though.

[SaintK]

Overall reasonably happy, very disappointed Ribbans finally got his chance, played well and has already been jettisoned.

Yep, shame for him. One of the form locks in the Premiership at present

[SaintK]

Was going to ask about Tom, did a quick google and suggests he's got a short term injury? I assume Ford is still injured too? Farrell to still be at 12 i suspect.

Not sure about Ludlam, but he's been alright as backup.

There's a lot of potential there, but the first cull, and then the actual lineup, will tell us a lot. Overall, that backrow could support quite a fast game.

Think we'll see that anyway with Evans as attack coach

[Oxbow]

Overall reasonably happy, very disappointed Ribbans finally got his chance, played well and has already been jettisoned.

Yep, shame for him. One of the form locks in the Premiership at present

And over the past three or four seasons, capped way too late while worse players were getting picked ahead of him.

[sockwithaticket]

Overall reasonably happy, very disappointed Ribbans finally got his chance, played well and has already been jettisoned.

He can definitely feel aggrieved.

No issues with Isiekwe coming in, he's one of the biggest lumps at lock we have and that should help our scrum issues, but Hill could have made space. He's smaller than both Ribbans and Isiekwe and his discipline has been garbage.

Mako and Tuilagi both very lucky to hold onto their spots. Would've been looking at Rapava-Ruskin or Goodrick-Clarke and Dingwall or Lawrence respectively.

Still don't think Youngs should be there, but he has at least started to play a bit better now that van Portvliet is gunning for his shirt.

Outside backs look great.

[sockwithaticket]

Was going to ask about Tom, did a quick google and suggests he's got a short term injury? I assume Ford is still injured too? Farrell to still be at 12 i suspect.

Not sure about Ludlam, but he's been alright as backup.

There's a lot of potential there, but the first cull, and then the actual lineup, will tell us a lot. Overall, that backrow could support quite a fast game.

Yeah, he went off pretty early against Quins in the last Prem round.

[PCPhil]

Anyone know how Arundel is getting on and when expected back?

[geordie_6]

Anyone know how Arundel is getting on and when expected back?

From the looks of it, had an op at the end of November which put him in a boot for 6 weeks. So if its off now, he'll be working back to fitness.

[JM2K6]

Yep. Looking forward to seeing Cole starting, Youngs and Farrell back together at 9 and 10, and a rapier-sharp Kelly/Tuilagi midfield

Mako, Tuilagi and Youngs still stinking the place out though.

I think you may have missed my sarcasm.

I'm pleased we've binned off a few of the past it guys, but there's one been added and every chance we'll see a regressive selection and gameplan. PROVE ME WRONG, SCAB NOSE

[Margin__Walker]

Anyone know how Arundel is getting on and when expected back?

From the looks of it, had an op at the end of November which put him in a boot for 6 weeks. So if its off now, he'll be working back to fitness.

There was talk about a potential end of Jan return. Its one of those weird injuries though that sounds open to complications, given they thought it didn't initially need surgery.

LI are annoyingly tight lipped on player availability though, so he could turn up on the team sheet this weekend, or we may not see him until the spring. Neither would surprise me.

[Kawazaki]

I'm fairly certain that this wasn't a blank sheet of paper selection by Borthwick, it is heavily caveated due to it being a mid-season adjustment of an already existing squad that Jones picked. There are only so many changes allowed under the agreement (5) but I think some swapping in and out of players as long as they are from the same club has been agreed. For example, Billy Vunipola can be replaced by Elliot Daly and it won't count as one of the 5 allowable changes.

[Ovals]

I'm fairly certain that this wasn't a blank sheet of paper selection by Borthwick, it is heavily caveated due to it being a mid-season adjustment of an already existing squad that Jones picked. There are only so many changes allowed under the agreement (5) but I think some swapping in and out of players as long as they are from the same club has been agreed. For example, Billy Vunipola can be replaced by Elliot Daly and it won't count as one of the 5 allowable changes.

So we're still suffering from Eddie's 'legacy'. Wonderful.

[sockwithaticket]

Will Porter set to join Quins for next season. Good signing that, the drop off in quality from Care to their current back up 9s is steep and Porter was really beginning to challenge Robson at Wasps before everything went wrong, so should close that quality gap.

[JM2K6]

Will Porter set to join Quins for next season. Good signing that, the drop off in quality from Care to their current back up 9s is steep and Porter was really beginning to challenge Robson at Wasps before everything went wrong, so should close that quality gap.

Yeah, really happy with that - was on my wishlist for Quins even before Wasps went bust...

Apparently Gareth Simpson is a good 9 and we need one at Quins as Care's backup/replacement... I'm hoping Porter wants to leave Wasps though

[inactionman]

Dave Ewers to Ulster.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64307413

Last one out at Sandy Park, turn off the lights.

[SaintK]

Dave Ewers to Ulster.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64307413

Last one out at Sandy Park, turn off the lights.

Was reported in The Rugby Paper on Sunday. Good signing for Ulster particularly if Vermeulen is moving on.
Mate of mine who is a consultant specialist coach was talking to Sam Skinner at Edinburgh who reckons that Exeter have not moved on from their Prem and Heineken winning seasons and that the players have become "bored" of the same old game plan and lack of game development. Probably why so many of the players are seeking pastures new and not renewing their contracts

[Kawazaki]

Dave Ewers to Ulster.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64307413

Last one out at Sandy Park, turn off the lights.

Was reported in The Rugby Paper on Sunday. Good signing for Ulster particularly if Vermeulen is moving on.
Mate of mine who is a consultant specialist coach was talking to Sam Skinner at Edinburgh who reckons that Exeter have not moved on from their Prem and Heineken winning seasons and that the players have become "bored" of the same old game plan and lack of game development. Probably why so many of the players are seeking pastures new and not renewing their contracts

Not a ringing endorsement for Baxter and his coaching team then?

[SaintK]

Dave Ewers to Ulster.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64307413

Last one out at Sandy Park, turn off the lights.

Was reported in The Rugby Paper on Sunday. Good signing for Ulster particularly if Vermeulen is moving on.
Mate of mine who is a consultant specialist coach was talking to Sam Skinner at Edinburgh who reckons that Exeter have not moved on from their Prem and Heineken winning seasons and that the players have become "bored" of the same old game plan and lack of game development. Probably why so many of the players are seeking pastures new and not renewing their contracts

Not a ringing endorsement for Baxter and his coaching team then?

Quite. They have all been there for years, probably time for a refresh if the senior players are moving on

[JM2K6]

Dave Ewers to Ulster.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64307413

Last one out at Sandy Park, turn off the lights.

Was reported in The Rugby Paper on Sunday. Good signing for Ulster particularly if Vermeulen is moving on.

Mmmmmaybe. His injury record is not ideal, wouldn't be surprised if his availability was pretty patchy.

Mate of mine who is a consultant specialist coach was talking to Sam Skinner at Edinburgh who reckons that Exeter have not moved on from their Prem and Heineken winning seasons and that the players have become "bored" of the same old game plan and lack of game development. Probably why so many of the players are seeking pastures new and not renewing their contracts

Difficult for a club that had achieved two all-time goals (promotion, and then the league/european double) in a relatively short space of time to maintain the same level of enthusiasm without major overhauls in either club or coaching staff tbh, especially if there's no extra financial rewards available.

[Kawazaki]

Difficult for a club that had achieved two all-time goals (promotion, and then the league/european double) in a relatively short space of time to maintain the same level of enthusiasm without major overhauls in either club or coaching staff tbh, especially if there's no extra financial rewards available.

There's a fairly obvious example in the league that shows it can be done.

[JM2K6]

Difficult for a club that had achieved two all-time goals (promotion, and then the league/european double) in a relatively short space of time to maintain the same level of enthusiasm without major overhauls in either club or coaching staff tbh, especially if there's no extra financial rewards available.

There's a fairly obvious example in the league that shows it can be done.

Can't think of one.

[Kawazaki]

Difficult for a club that had achieved two all-time goals (promotion, and then the league/european double) in a relatively short space of time to maintain the same level of enthusiasm without major overhauls in either club or coaching staff tbh, especially if there's no extra financial rewards available.

There's a fairly obvious example in the league that shows it can be done.

Can't think of one.

I'm sure you can.

[JM2K6]

There's a fairly obvious example in the league that shows it can be done.

Can't think of one.

I'm sure you can.

No, none that fit the criteria.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Was reported in The Rugby Paper on Sunday. Good signing for Ulster particularly if Vermeulen is moving on.
Mate of mine who is a consultant specialist coach was talking to Sam Skinner at Edinburgh who reckons that Exeter have not moved on from their Prem and Heineken winning seasons and that the players have become "bored" of the same old game plan and lack of game development. Probably why so many of the players are seeking pastures new and not renewing their contracts

Not a ringing endorsement for Baxter and his coaching team then?

Quite. They have all been there for years, probably time for a refresh if the senior players are moving on

They have shown they can build a squad up until it challenges at the highest levels they can. I suppose the board need to decide are they ready to go again, or have they done a Clive and disappeared up their own fundaments on the back of the success they've had.

Just if they are ready to go again necessarily starting with new players may remove some of the problems in terms of keeping the players engaged, though I'm sure they'd rather have the money to keep all their players as some club oddly manages

[Kawazaki]

Can't think of one.

I'm sure you can.

No, none that fit the criteria.

Maintain same levels of enthusiasm after having 100+ points deducted. Then relegated. Manages the squad. Then reach Premiership final in first season back and just losing. Then changing style and amassing massive league lead. Unbeaten in Europe. All led by a bloke in his 14th season with the same club with 5x Premierships and 3x ECs.

I'd day he far exceeds any criteria you've drummed up.

[Ovals]

I'm sure you can.

No, none that fit the criteria.

Maintain same levels of enthusiasm after having 100+ points deducted. Then relegated. Manages the squad. Then reach Premiership final in first season back and just losing. Then changing style and amassing massive league lead. Unbeaten in Europe. All led by a bloke in his 14th season with the same club with 5x Premierships and 3x ECs.

I'd day he far exceeds any criteria you've drummed up.

It's certainly an awesome record, even allowing for the past salary cheating. Biggest surprise is how they manage to hold on to some of the older 'big' name players who, you'd think. might look overseas for a bigger payday - especially considering the £5M salary cap.

[JM2K6]

I'm sure you can.

No, none that fit the criteria.

Maintain same levels of enthusiasm after having 100+ points deducted. Then relegated. Manages the squad. Then reach Premiership final in first season back and just losing. Then changing style and amassing massive league lead. Unbeaten in Europe. All led by a bloke in his 14th season with the same club with 5x Premierships and 3x ECs.

I'd day he far exceeds any criteria you've drummed up.

I was quite clear in the criteria. Excluding the obvious financial aspect which there's no point even remotely trying to discuss with you, Sarries created a title winning squad almost from scratch (which McCall was involved with for about 6 months before the win, but it was Venter's team) that after a few years of not quite doing it finally managed to win another league AND Europe. That was the era of Brist, Barritt, Strettle, Bosch, Wigglesworth, Burger, Brown, Hargreaves, etc. Compare it with the team that won 3 years later - a lot of change. And we know of several high profile coaches who came and went in that time.


Liam Williams, Alex Lozowski, Sean Maitland, Ben Spencer, Jamie George, Vincent Koch, Will Skelton, Schalk Burger, Nick Isiekwe, Nick Tompkins - all big name players who were involved in the most recent CC win who weren't in the first one 3 years earlier (which had guys like Ashton, Taylor, Wyles, Brits, du Plessis, Rhodes, Fraser, Hamilton, Figallo, Hodgson, Bosch)

that's a lot of big name movement in a pretty short space of time, my point stands

(Edit: George was on the bench tbf but Brits was the starof the show)

[Kawazaki]

No, none that fit the criteria.

Maintain same levels of enthusiasm after having 100+ points deducted. Then relegated. Manages the squad. Then reach Premiership final in first season back and just losing. Then changing style and amassing massive league lead. Unbeaten in Europe. All led by a bloke in his 14th season with the same club with 5x Premierships and 3x ECs.

I'd day he far exceeds any criteria you've drummed up.

It's certainly an awesome record, even allowing for the past salary cheating. Biggest surprise is how they manage to hold on to some of the older 'big' name players who, you'd think. might look overseas for a bigger payday - especially considering the £5M salary cap.

Winning is quite a big draw for players. And, Kpoku aside, I've not heard any player, past or present, who doesn't rave about the dynamic at the club.

I'd love to know what the McCall magic is but year-in year-out he consistently gets the highest performance out of his players. And many of those big names weren't big when they started at Saracens - he definitely adds value. Look at my old mate, Jackson Wray - he's won 4x Premierships and 3x European finals - starting in 4 of those finals - and none of you would look twice at him for your clubs. People still look down their nose at him even now, huge disrespect, as if a team could win that many leagues and finals with a dud in the backrow (and a useless flyhalf as well!).

[Ovals]

Maintain same levels of enthusiasm after having 100+ points deducted. Then relegated. Manages the squad. Then reach Premiership final in first season back and just losing. Then changing style and amassing massive league lead. Unbeaten in Europe. All led by a bloke in his 14th season with the same club with 5x Premierships and 3x ECs.

I'd day he far exceeds any criteria you've drummed up.

It's certainly an awesome record, even allowing for the past salary cheating. Biggest surprise is how they manage to hold on to some of the older 'big' name players who, you'd think. might look overseas for a bigger payday - especially considering the £5M salary cap.

Winning is quite a big draw for players. And, Kpoku aside, I've not heard any player, past or present, who doesn't rave about the dynamic at the club.

I'd love to know what the McCall magic is but year-in year-out he consistently gets the highest performance out of his players. And many of those big names weren't big when they started at Saracens - he definitely adds value. Look at my old mate, Jackson Wray - he's won 4x Premierships and 3x European finals - starting in 4 of those finals - and none of you would look twice at him for your clubs. People still look down their nose at him even now, huge disrespect, as if a team could win that many leagues and finals with a dud in the backrow (and a useless flyhalf as well!).

McCall certainly has a great record - all the more surprising that his name doesn't come up, with any great gusto, when the England job is up for grabs.

Do you think it'll soon be time for them to re-build that team - quite a few of the big names have been around a long time now.

[inactionman]

Not sure if it's been raised, apols if I missed it.

Henry Slade's red card has apparently been rescinded so he's good to go for the 6N

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64309594

[ASMO]

Not sure if it's been raised, apols if I missed it.

Henry Slade's red card has apparently been rescinded so he's good to go for the 6N

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64309594

completely correct decision, lets hope the referee gets his balls kicked for making what was clear to everyone to be an incorrect call..

[Kawazaki]

Do you think it'll soon be time for them to re-build that team - quite a few of the big names have been around a long time now.

George and Daly re-signed last month. So did Ben Earl. No question that the squad is aging although they're still performing in the league. You have to trust in the coaches don't you. They recruited Theo MacFarland from the MLR and he was the best player in the league until he got injured. If they can unearth gems like that then I think the club is in good hands.

[inactionman]

Do you think it'll soon be time for them to re-build that team - quite a few of the big names have been around a long time now.

George and Daly re-signed last month. So did Ben Earl. No question that the squad is aging although they're still performing in the league. You have to trust in the coaches don't you. They recruited Theo MacFarland from the MLR and he was the best player in the league until he got injured. If they can unearth gems like that then I think the club is in good hands.

Willis - although not exactly a hidden gem - is an excellent signing.

[ASMO]

Do you think it'll soon be time for them to re-build that team - quite a few of the big names have been around a long time now.

George and Daly re-signed last month. So did Ben Earl. No question that the squad is aging although they're still performing in the league. You have to trust in the coaches don't you. They recruited Theo MacFarland from the MLR and he was the best player in the league until he got injured. If they can unearth gems like that then I think the club is in good hands.

Willis - although not exactly a hidden gem - is an excellent signing.

They really need a new top end scrum half and some decent wings with Malins going. Van Zyl is a proper journeyman, Aled Davies has potential but he needs someone to learn from. Lewington and Maitland are definitely on the wane, Segun is decent but not tearing up any trees.

[Torquemada 1420]

Not sure if it's been raised, apols if I missed it.

Henry Slade's red card has apparently been rescinded so he's good to go for the 6N

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64309594

completely correct decision, lets hope the referee gets his balls kicked for making what was clear to everyone to be an incorrect call..

Yup. That was a nonsense decision. How to a ref, a TMO and 2 TJs get that so badly wrong with perfect tv coverage?

[sockwithaticket]

Not sure if it's been raised, apols if I missed it.

Henry Slade's red card has apparently been rescinded so he's good to go for the 6N

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64309594

As expected. Would've been absurd to let it stand. In a roundabout way it might actually be a good thing that it happened, there hasn't been such a united front from rugby fans on a red card decision in years.

George and Daly re-signed last month. So did Ben Earl. No question that the squad is aging although they're still performing in the league. You have to trust in the coaches don't you. They recruited Theo MacFarland from the MLR and he was the best player in the league until he got injured. If they can unearth gems like that then I think the club is in good hands.

Willis - although not exactly a hidden gem - is an excellent signing.

They really need a new top end scrum half and some decent wings with Malins going. Van Zyl is a proper journeyman, Aled Davies has potential but he needs someone to learn from. Lewington and Maitland are definitely on the wane, Segun is decent but not tearing up any trees.

Davies is 30, will be 31 in July, not some young lad with unrealised potential. What you see now is likely as good as it gets.

The backs will need some attention over the next few years, but up front is still the most important thing and it looks like they have their eye on the ball there. Bringing in the likes of Tizard, McFarland and Willis shows that they are slowly rejuvenating the team.

[inactionman]

George and Daly re-signed last month. So did Ben Earl. No question that the squad is aging although they're still performing in the league. You have to trust in the coaches don't you. They recruited Theo MacFarland from the MLR and he was the best player in the league until he got injured. If they can unearth gems like that then I think the club is in good hands.

Willis - although not exactly a hidden gem - is an excellent signing.

They really need a new top end scrum half and some decent wings with Malins going. Van Zyl is a proper journeyman, Aled Davies has potential but he needs someone to learn from. Lewington and Maitland are definitely on the wane, Segun is decent but not tearing up any trees.

Malins is a weird one, as he looked well-set in the Sarries squad so not exactly surplus to requirement. Can only assume the offer from Briz was substantially more.
In saying that, I vaguely recall some disagreements over his preferred position, not sure where he fits in the lego set with e.g. Daly and Goode variously wing and fullback, Malins seemed to get chopped around a fair old bit.

[SaintK]

Not sure if it's been raised, apols if I missed it.

Henry Slade's red card has apparently been rescinded so he's good to go for the 6N

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64309594

Good
Poor call by the ref/TMO

[inactionman]

Not sure if it's been raised, apols if I missed it.

Henry Slade's red card has apparently been rescinded so he's good to go for the 6N

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64309594

Good
Poor call by the ref/TMO

I caught it on TV and it looked a pretty bad tackle in realtime, but replays clearly showed it was a shoulder impact to a player low to the ground but he slipped upwards.

I can understand the ref's initial concern, can't really follow the reasoning after that point.

Yep, poor call.