The Official English Rugby Thread

[inactionman]

Sale vs Bath tonight.

I'm sure you're all looking forward to it. To see how many times Bath can knock on inside Sale's 22 and how long until Jono Ross skulls someone.

I've tried to cut done on booze this year but I may just need a few to cope with this one.

[SaintK]

Sale vs Bath tonight.

I'm sure you're all looking forward to it. To see how many times Bath can knock on inside Sale's 22 and how long until Jono Ross skulls someone.

I've tried to cut done on booze this year but I may just need a few to cope with this one.

Bet you’re a few down already
Sale bossing the game with bonus point by halftime

[sockwithaticket]

Almost didn't recognise JJ with his new hairline. Well taken try that.

[SaintK]

.....and Bath take the lead

[fishfoodie]

.....and Bath take the lead

I hope Lady P has hidden all the sharp implements in the house.....

[Tichtheid]

Carpenter did really well to delay the pass to the very last second there

[SaintK]

........but Sale score with the clock in the red to win 30 27

[sockwithaticket]

........but Sale score with the clock in the red to win 30 27

With that final conversion not going over, am I right in thinking du Preez was 2/8 for kicks?

[sockwithaticket]

Ludlam with some Toga-bait/illuminating comments in a Graun interview. Sure he didn't mean any of it as shots at Jones, but it's hard not to see them as tacitly saying negative things about the departed fuhrer.

No bouncy castles, no paddleboarding and, mercifully, not a judo mat in sight. As yet no reports of Steve Borthwick throwing anybody a packet of sweets, handing out a crate of beer or promising a prime cut of beef then sending sausages because “you’re not ready for steak yet”. Indeed, searching England’s Bagshot hotel for tangible signs the Borthwick era is up and running was proving a thankless task until the penny dropped: it was their very absence that revealed so much more.

This week England were due to be at a warm-weather training camp in Portugal. In the last year they have been to Brighton and Jersey, even Thorpe Park, performing numerous exercises designed to build social capital. This is not to belittle Eddie Jones’s methods – history shows that they were incredibly popular and mightily effective in his first few years as head coach – but it will come as little surprise to hear that it is not Borthwick’s style.

Trips abroad have been cancelled and while there was a one-off open training session at Twickenham on Tuesday, the rest of this week’s training camp in Bagshot, away from the pitch, has been stripped back. The hotel too – for it is undergoing significant renovations – but regardless, Borthwick evidently wants to get down to business at England’s familiar base, where Jamie George returned on Wednesday to continue his concussion return-to-play protocols.

Training days have been tweaked and have more of a “club” feel, and the word from the camp is that hard graft has been the order of the day. Borthwick is not without his idiosyncrasies – when he arrived at Leicester it was a priority to remodel the gym and training base – but the early messages from the England squad are that, with the clock ticking before next Saturday’s Calcutta Cup, he is drilling players with detail on the field and keeping things simple off it.

There are no more morning and afternoon sessions – the equivalent of a dreaded split shift for anyone who has pulled pints for a living. Instead, the players get through their body of work then have their down time. You sense Borthwick may need to be a little more creative with off-field entertainment when England spend up to two months in northern France later this year but for now, his no-frills approach seems to be going down well.

“The main difference is how we’re talking about the way we want to play,” said Lewis Ludlam. “We’re getting a real clarity on the way England want to play and the emotional connection as well.” There’s the C-word again – Borthwick is determined to rid England of the muddled thinking that blighted the final stage of Jones’s tenure.

The idea of a club culture is interesting, too, because during the autumn Jones and a number of his players were lining up to tell us how difficult it can be for the squad to assemble from so many different sides and flick the England switch. Recent campaigns have been marred by early defeats as a result and Borthwick is aware of the significance of beating Scotland – not least because his two predecessors managed it in their first matches in charge and bought considerable goodwill.

“We have two weeks’ [preparation] until Scotland and are going to have to be in the best physical and mental condition possible,” added Ludlam. “We need to learn our lessons quickly. It’s been detailed and, as players, we need to be sponges.”

It is instructive to hear that much of that detail has focused on the driving maul – when he was the forwards coach, Borthwick was never far from the step-ladder, perfecting lineout drills, and clearly he sees it as a weapon in need of sharpening. “If we can get an edge there and score three or four more of those opportunities when we are five metres out, that goes a long way in world rugby,” said Ludlam. “The exciting thing with Steve is that everything is thought through in terms of how we are going to play, where we are going to score our points. It’s important we put our eggs in those baskets.”

If there has been a lot for the players to digest, it helps that Borthwick and his right-hand man, Kevin Sinfield, are approachable coaches. The Australia scrum-half Nic White recently explained how the Wallabies were “excited and quietly shitting themselves” at the prospect of Jones’s second coming but Borthwick’s management style is again markedly different.

“We’re given the space to try things, to express ourselves and to ask questions,” added Ludlam. “A big part of taking on messages quickly is [being] comfortable to ask questions, because there’s no wrong question. So it’s been brilliant, to have that emotional connection to the England side, to have that level of detail and the level of comfort.”

[SaintK]

........but Sale score with the clock in the red to win 30 27

With that final conversion not going over, am I right in thinking du Preez was 2/8 for kicks?

Yep
Missed 4 conversions and 2 penalties

[Paddington Bear]

Started watching the recording this morning. Saw Sale run in their third try, said ‘this is pointless’ and deleted the recording. Then I checked the final score…

[Raggs]

Not sure I like the line about where England are going to score their points straight after the mauling and give metre out comment.

[SaintK]

Started watching the recording this morning. Saw Sale run in their third try, said ‘this is pointless’ and deleted the recording. Then I checked the final score…

Bath blown away in the first half, were the better team in the second but just can't seem to string two good halves together

[SaintK]

Sweeney not having a good year.
https://12ft.io/proxy?ref=&q=https:/ ... ouncil/

Spoiler

Show

The Rugby Football Union found itself at the centre of open warfare on Friday night as a farcical week ended with the governing body issuing a humiliating apology for causing “anger and concern” across the community game.

Despite acknowledging failures in engagement, and amid continuing calls for Bill Sweeney, the union’s chief executive, to resign, the RFU has resisted a U-turn on controversial tackle-height changes.

Fridays’ statement reiterated an intention to press ahead with lowering the legal tackle-height in the community game, with the apology including details of the medical evidence that was provided to RFU council members as an explanation for why lowering the “waist” has been seen as the most sensible limit in order to reduce the risk of injuries.

However, in another embarrassing development for the governing body it emerged that the 12 page document that formed the basis of the RFU's reasoning contained data that has not previously been published or peer reviewed.

There will now be a concerted effort from the union to consult with the players, coaches and referees over the wording of the rule-change, notably to explain that “waist” will refer to the navel rather than the hips, giving slightly more lee-way to tacklers than had been feared.

'We accept that the rugby community has concerns'
“The RFU board, council and executive staff apologise for the anger and concern that has been created among the rugby community by announcing the decision to lower the tackle height from next season,” read a remarkable statement from the RFU.

“In our desire to act quickly to reduce head impacts and concussions in the community game, which represents 99 per cent of the rugby playing population in England, we have upset many of you who are the champions, volunteers, and ambassadors of our game. We fully acknowledge we got the engagement wrong, and we are truly sorry.

“In making our decision we were aware that France have lowered the tackle height, New Zealand will be doing so and World Rugby supports this approach. We, like the French, used the term ‘waist and below’; this has caused misunderstanding and confusion.

“We would now like the game to help us define how we describe a lower tackle height to reflect what the research is telling us in a way that is understood by all. Consequently, the risk of head injuries should be reduced if tackling below that optimum height.

“We will now begin a series of forums and workshops with players, coaches, match officials and volunteers, to explain and develop the details of the domestic law variation.”
Council members held what was described as a “full and frank” discussion on Thursday night in an attempt to review the process by which the decision was made and “the timescales involved in making the decision”. Also on the agenda was the backlash from community clubs and the RFU’s communication of the decision, which was announced just eight days ago.

According to internal documents seen by Telegraph Sport, a further review will take place at the next RFU council meeting on Feb 13. It is understood that the RFU laws group and governance committee were to finalise “the precise wording of the law”, but it will now be brought back to full council, and go through consultation with clubs, as part of that process.

The statement added: “A large body of scientific evidence demonstrates the risk of head injury and concussion for players can be reduced by lowering the tackle height to prevent head-on-head contact.

“However, we also accept that the rugby community has other concerns that this change may bring and we need to listen, understand and respond to those concerns. We will start inviting players, coaches, match officials and volunteers to these forums from early next week, so that we can all work together.”

'Sweeney is no friend of the community game'
None of this fire-fighting has prevented calls for Sweeney to resign. The Community Clubs Union [CCU], an organisation campaigning for a vote of no confidence in the current chief executive, has now received the backing of around 280 clubs. The CCU is pressing ahead with its intention to force a special general meeting (SGM).

“Bill Sweeney has shown he is no friend of the community game and has seriously undervalued the strength of the community game,” said a CCU spokesperson on Friday. “We will push for his resignation or removal via the SGM.”

As well as triggering an SGM, the CCU also wants to rescind the vote on the tackle law and are aiming to garner the support of 20 councillors in order to do so. In a statement on Friday evening, they outlined their plan to do so before next month’s council meeting, setting a deadline of February 1.

Meanwhile, the constituent body of the North Midlands is also understood to have decided to join Staffordshire in rescinding its vote in favour of the trial.

This vicious backlash compounds something of an annus horribilis for Sweeney. At the end of the 2022 Six Nations, the RFU was roundly criticised for issuing a statement that declared themselves pleased with England’s direction of travel under Jones despite losing three matches in the second successive Six Nations tournament.

Jones was then sacked in December, yet has been allowed to take up the role of head coach of Australia, leaving him in line to coach against England at the 2023 World Cup, because he did not sign a no-compete clause.

Elsewhere, in the professional club game, Sweeney appeared in front of a select committee for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) in November following the financial collapse of both Worcester Warriors and Wasps.

There, he was accused of “living in isolation in your ivory tower”. Last month, Sweeney was asked whether he had considered his position, as he had been urged to by the DCMS select committee.

“I love this job,” Sweeney said. “It’s a privilege to do it. It’s quite demanding at times, we’ve spoken about 2022, and I believe I’ve got the full backing of the board. That’s not my decision to make, if somebody else thinks differently.

[Kawazaki]

Ben Spencer is good enough to get more caps. In fact, he really should be at a better club.

[ASMO]

Ben Spencer is good enough to get more caps. In fact, he really should be at a better club.

For a supposedly old guy he showed serious gas for his try

[Kawazaki]

Ben Spencer is good enough to get more caps. In fact, he really should be at a better club.

For a supposedly old guy he showed serious gas for his try

He's probably the biggest victim of the Jones era. Shamefully treated.

[SaintK]

Ben Spencer is good enough to get more caps. In fact, he really should be at a better club.

For a supposedly old guy he showed serious gas for his try

.....as did Joseph!

[Paddington Bear]

Sweeney really is a clown. If we’re going to have an amateur operation why are we paying a CEO and staff to act like a FTSE 250?

[inactionman]

Sale vs Bath tonight.

I'm sure you're all looking forward to it. To see how many times Bath can knock on inside Sale's 22 and how long until Jono Ross skulls someone.

I've tried to cut done on booze this year but I may just need a few to cope with this one.

Bet you’re a few down already
Sale bossing the game with bonus point by halftime

It really is enough to drive you to drink

Really strange game and a very disappointing end, although to be fair if Du Preez had his kicking boots on Sale would have been home and hosed long before then. We got beasted in the first 30, surprising given the likes of Attwood, but it went a lot better when we tried not to take them on too directly up front.

Good to see Obano and Underhill back, a back row of Underhill, plain Hill and Barbeary will be interesting (not forgetting Bayliss, Reid etc).

Just an aside, and without referencing Father Ted's 'those are big, those are far away_ - take a look at the size of Obano in the team mugshots:

https://www.bathrugby.com/squad/players/

He really is a powerful lad, hope his knee injuries are behind him.

[Ovals]

Sale vs Bath tonight.

I'm sure you're all looking forward to it. To see how many times Bath can knock on inside Sale's 22 and how long until Jono Ross skulls someone.

I've tried to cut done on booze this year but I may just need a few to cope with this one.

Bet you’re a few down already
Sale bossing the game with bonus point by halftime

It really is enough to drive you to drink

Really strange game and a very disappointing end, although to be fair if Du Preez had his kicking boots on Sale would have been home and hosed long before then. We got beasted in the first 30, surprising given the likes of Attwood, but it went a lot better when we tried not to take them on too directly up front.

Good to see Obano and Underhill back, a back row of Underhill, plain Hill and Barbeary will be interesting (not forgetting Bayliss, Reid etc).

Just an aside, and without referencing Father Ted's 'those are big, those are far away_ - take a look at the size of Obano in the team mugshots:

https://www.bathrugby.com/squad/players/

He really is a powerful lad, hope his knee injuries are behind him.

Jeez - he's huge. Haven't seen him play in years - what's his mobility like these days.

Looking at that Bath squad, they really should have a good team. Maybe they'll hit their straps next year - especially with other sides shedding their expensive players due to the salary cap.

[inactionman]

Bet you’re a few down already
Sale bossing the game with bonus point by halftime

It really is enough to drive you to drink

Really strange game and a very disappointing end, although to be fair if Du Preez had his kicking boots on Sale would have been home and hosed long before then. We got beasted in the first 30, surprising given the likes of Attwood, but it went a lot better when we tried not to take them on too directly up front.

Good to see Obano and Underhill back, a back row of Underhill, plain Hill and Barbeary will be interesting (not forgetting Bayliss, Reid etc).

Just an aside, and without referencing Father Ted's 'those are big, those are far away_ - take a look at the size of Obano in the team mugshots:

https://www.bathrugby.com/squad/players/

He really is a powerful lad, hope his knee injuries are behind him.

Jeez - he's huge. Haven't seen him play in years - what's his mobility like these days.

Looking at that Bath squad, they really should have a good team. Maybe they'll hit their straps next year - especially with other sides shedding their expensive players due to the salary cap.

He's had two shocker knee injuries, I think the last one was a dislocated kneecap which was thankfully not a direct reoccurrence of an ACL he injured in the back end of 2021. They don't seem to be having too much influence on scrum and movement, thankfully, but this is - I think - first game back.

The squad is, on paper, pretty tidy - not to say it's title-winning but it's definitely not a dead-last team of no-hopers. Injuries really haven't helped, of course, particularly in the impact on any continuity ('start playing well, get injured' seems to be the pattern) although we're not alone in that. The main historical issue has been dissected pretty extensively but I hope it is now truly that - historical. We'll see.

[Paddington Bear]

Say the line Austin

‘TMO has to look at that’

[Oxbow]

Always nice when they have two former Leicester players commentating on a Tigers v Saints match.

[Oxbow]

Fuck off Austin.

[sockwithaticket]

That's a disgrace, play should've been stopped. If a medic has to dodge the pass, you shouldn't be playing.

[Paddington Bear]

Fiesty.

I know it has gone out the game a bit but a very good advert for taking every 3 points on offer from Northampton here, they’ve been noticeably worse but are bang in it

[SaintK]

Fiesty.

I know it has gone out the game a bit but a very good advert for taking every 3 points on offer from Northampton here, they’ve been noticeably worse but are bang in it

Thought Saints improved as the half went on.
Wiese is a niggly sod!!

[sockwithaticket]

Fiesty.

I know it has gone out the game a bit but a very good advert for taking every 3 points on offer from Northampton here, they’ve been noticeably worse but are bang in it

And now that option taking gives them the lead (impressive place kicking from Furbank btw). There's definitely a lot to be said for keeping the scoreboard ticking over rather than gambling on the lineout drive.

[sockwithaticket]

Brilliant offload from Ramm that.

[Paddington Bear]

Congrats to Northampton. ALWAYS take the 3…

[sockwithaticket]

Thought they were going to pull a Saints' at the last moment, but they saw it through. Winning the derby at Welford road must feel pretty sweet after their recent run of form.

[Oxbow]

It does feel pretty good. No that I should complain, but Leicester were so dull they made me want to scoop my eyes out. As frustrating as Saints can be, I'd hate to watch that every week.

[SaintK]

Well deserved that.
Tigers very one dimensional in the 2nd half

[Kawazaki]

Sale vs Bath tonight.

I'm sure you're all looking forward to it. To see how many times Bath can knock on inside Sale's 22 and how long until Jono Ross skulls someone.

I've tried to cut done on booze this year but I may just need a few to cope with this one.

Bet you’re a few down already
Sale bossing the game with bonus point by halftime

It really is enough to drive you to drink

Really strange game and a very disappointing end, although to be fair if Du Preez had his kicking boots on Sale would have been home and hosed long before then. We got beasted in the first 30, surprising given the likes of Attwood, but it went a lot better when we tried not to take them on too directly up front.

Good to see Obano and Underhill back, a back row of Underhill, plain Hill and Barbeary will be interesting (not forgetting Bayliss, Reid etc).

Just an aside, and without referencing Father Ted's 'those are big, those are far away_ - take a look at the size of Obano in the team mugshots:

https://www.bathrugby.com/squad/players/

He really is a powerful lad, hope his knee injuries are behind him.

Talking of huge motherfuckers, I was astonished by the size of the Russian prop who was playing for Sale. He looked like a WSM competitor - just everything was massive.

[petej]

Well deserved that.
Tigers very one dimensional in the 2nd half

I know we won the title last season but we were dull. Saints are very exciting varying between smacking the self destruct button and some superb attacking rugby.

[Brazil]

Bet you’re a few down already
Sale bossing the game with bonus point by halftime

It really is enough to drive you to drink

Really strange game and a very disappointing end, although to be fair if Du Preez had his kicking boots on Sale would have been home and hosed long before then. We got beasted in the first 30, surprising given the likes of Attwood, but it went a lot better when we tried not to take them on too directly up front.

Good to see Obano and Underhill back, a back row of Underhill, plain Hill and Barbeary will be interesting (not forgetting Bayliss, Reid etc).

Just an aside, and without referencing Father Ted's 'those are big, those are far away_ - take a look at the size of Obano in the team mugshots:

https://www.bathrugby.com/squad/players/

He really is a powerful lad, hope his knee injuries are behind him.

Talking of huge motherfuckers, I was astonished by the size of the Russian prop who was playing for Sale. He looked like a WSM competitor - just everything was massive.

Do you mean Morozov? He was playing for bath rather than us, but he's an absolute unit.

Pains me to say it given his impact, but I'm glad to see Obano back. Local boy and has real potential

[Kawazaki]

Farrell is an English great and should be the England flyhalf.

He is one of the greatest players I have played with and one of the most impressive men I have met through rugby. He will be remembered as one of England’s greats. If I were a coach or player, I would want him in any playing and training environment I was involved in. I’ve never understood the doubters.

As regards the controversial high tackles, I think he gets a hard time because he is so high-profile. There are players out there firing shots in like that week in, week out and they are not getting the same level of scrutiny because they are not the England captain.
He should play No 10 now for England. He always plays there for Saracens.

https://archive.ph/cRvsZ

[Ovals]

Farrell is an English great and should be the England flyhalf.

He is one of the greatest players I have played with and one of the most impressive men I have met through rugby. He will be remembered as one of England’s greats. If I were a coach or player, I would want him in any playing and training environment I was involved in. I’ve never understood the doubters.

As regards the controversial high tackles, I think he gets a hard time because he is so high-profile. There are players out there firing shots in like that week in, week out and they are not getting the same level of scrutiny because they are not the England captain.
He should play No 10 now for England. He always plays there for Saracens.

https://archive.ph/cRvsZ

I'm sure we're set to find out over the course of the 6N

[Lobby]

Arundell is back on the bench for London Irish today. Hopefully he'll get 20 minutes or so to show how he has recovered from his injury.