The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

Irish blitzing Quins so far.

[fishfoodie]

Irish blitzing Quins so far.

Just building the tension before the collapse

[sockwithaticket]

Irish blitzing Quins so far.

Just building the tension before the collapse

True, one of the teams most likely to surrender a lead vs. the comeback kings. Could get ugly in the final quarter.

[geordie_6]

Arundell is back on the bench for London Irish today. Hopefully he'll get 20 minutes or so to show how he has recovered from his injury.

And, hopefully, not rushed back into the England fold

[sockwithaticket]

Ben Shitehouse has had an absolute shocker there. That's a card.

[ASMO]

Care having a very poor game his standards

[Ovals]

Marler having a huge game - carried really well. Shame he isn't in the England squad - has ti be a better option than Mako.

[JM2K6]

Well done Irish. Christ, Pearson really is a monster, and he makes such consistently good decisions as well. Wish the ref would, though. I'm sick of seeing players get pinged for "no arms" when they very clearly tried to use their arms and got blocked in contact by the player they were tackling. Both times it happened (once each) it was a huge call that had a big impact.

The red was both very obvious and also hilariously inexplicable behaviour by CCS. He kinda just flopped on the ruck then had a spam and rolled and curled up, definitely not a static target. Wouldn't have been a red if Lewies had tried to do anything other than twat him with the shoulder so it was an easy call regardless. It doesn't need the commentators wanking about it for twenty minutes etc - there were a million tries and incidents before halftime ffs.

Quins lineout seems completely reliant on Lewies being on the pitch. Scrum went well though the ref decided early on that a collapse was just play on which was in Irish's favour a bit. Ultimately Irish were better organised, played with better tempo, and had better discipline(!). Quins threw too many shit passes and offloads and tackled poorly. Yeah we were missing a third of our team again on top of the injuries but that's not enough of an excuse, the coaches have to do better to get these guys playing coherently. And stop being afraid to substitute a big name if they're playing shit - Care should've been hooked for Steele fairly early in the 2nd half.

Mid-table now, seems about right. I did say a few weeks back I couldn't really see where a run of wins would come from, and this was one of the few matches I had some hopes for. We'll not be threatening the playoffs.

[Margin__Walker]

Unlucky JM

Enjoyed seeing Dykes on a bigger stage. He reminds me a bit of Murley. A decent finisher, who's strong and agile in contact.

Made hard work of that in the end in the second half a man up, but nice to bring it home without too much panic.

Thought Pearson was great again. His level of performance is so consistent. It just doesn't drop and he's a threat both sides of the ball.

[JM2K6]

Unlucky JM

Enjoyed seeing Dykes on a bigger stage. He reminds me a bit of Murley. A decent finisher, who's strong and agile in contact.

Made hard work of that in the end in the second half a man up, but nice to bring it home without too much panic.

Thought Pearson was great again. His level of performance is so consistent. It just doesn't drop and he's a threat both sides of the ball.

Difficult to see what weaknesses Pearson has really. Hugely impressive.

[Ovals]

Well done Irish. Christ, Pearson really is a monster, and he makes such consistently good decisions as well. Wish the ref would, though. I'm sick of seeing players get pinged for "no arms" when they very clearly tried to use their arms and got blocked in contact by the player they were tackling. Both times it happened (once each) it was a huge call that had a big impact.

The red was both very obvious and also hilariously inexplicable behaviour by CCS. He kinda just flopped on the ruck then had a spam and rolled and curled up, definitely not a static target. Wouldn't have been a red if Lewies had tried to do anything other than twat him with the shoulder so it was an easy call regardless. It doesn't need the commentators wanking about it for twenty minutes etc - there were a million tries and incidents before halftime ffs.

Quins lineout seems completely reliant on Lewies being on the pitch. Scrum went well though the ref decided early on that a collapse was just play on which was in Irish's favour a bit. Ultimately Irish were better organised, played with better tempo, and had better discipline(!). Quins threw too many shit passes and offloads and tackled poorly. Yeah we were missing a third of our team again on top of the injuries but that's not enough of an excuse, the coaches have to do better to get these guys playing coherently. And stop being afraid to substitute a big name if they're playing shit - Care should've been hooked for Steele fairly early in the 2nd half.

Mid-table now, seems about right. I did say a few weeks back I couldn't really see where a run of wins would come from, and this was one of the few matches I had some hopes for. We'll not be threatening the playoffs.

That's a bit defeatist - only 2 points off 3rd place. Bit of a break now, time to recoup. It'll be tough with so many players on ENgland duty but they showed today that they can still play some great rugby - just need a bit more organisation in defence and they'll still be in contention. It's not as if the sides around them are any great shakes.

[Kawazaki]

It looks to me like Esterhuizen's carries aren't anything like as dominant or effective as they used to be, and there is a ripple effect from that into everything else Quins try thereafter.

[sockwithaticket]

Also, outside Sale and Saracens, there aren't any other teams who look appreciably better than Quins. 3 - 8 is much of a muchness in terms of quality and consistency (or lack thereof...). None of them can be ruled out of contention for the final two playoff spots at this point.

[Ovals]

Also, outside Sale and Saracens, there aren't any other teams who look appreciably better than Quins. 3 - 8 is much of a muchness in terms of quality and consistency (or lack thereof...). None of them can be ruled out of contention for the final two playoff spots at this point.

Even Sarries looked vulnerable without their England players

[Ovals]

It looks to me like Esterhuizen's carries aren't anything like as dominant or effective as they used to be, and there is a ripple effect from that into everything else Quins try thereafter.

Scoring tries isn't really the problem though - it's sloppy defense/organisation that's the issue.

[Kawazaki]

Maybe it's recency bias but London Irish look like the form team in the Premiership. They're well coached and they have players that can make things happen.

[Margin__Walker]

Maybe it's recency bias but London Irish look like the form team in the Premiership. They're well coached and they have players that can make things happen.

Nah, we're the same as we've been for the last few seasons. A team that can beat anyone on the right day, but with a fairly soft underbelly. Capable of throwing good positions away too easily.

We've lost some shockers this season, not putting games to bed.

One thing moving in the right direction though is the pathway to the first team. A lot of genuinely good youngsters queuing up. In the past someone like OHC leaving would feel like a hammer blow, but it feels more manageable here.

[JM2K6]

It looks to me like Esterhuizen's carries aren't anything like as dominant or effective as they used to be, and there is a ripple effect from that into everything else Quins try thereafter.

Scoring tries isn't really the problem though - it's sloppy defense/organisation that's the issue.

You're both right, really - Esterhuizen hasn't been as effective this season, and our bigger problem is defence. There's no question we're way down on the lethality and accuracy in attack, and that's partly due to basically not having Smith for the entire season, and partly due to consistently missing our better ball carriers to take some of the workload off Esterhuizen and make teams worry about multiple big threats.

re: being defeatist - I don't think that's it. Quins are superb when they're able to pick 90% of their first choice players.They're less resilient than other teams when they can't, and on top of that, out of the 7 matches they have left in the league, 2 of them are at the Stoop. Their run-in is tough:

Glaws away*
Bye week
Exeter home*
Bristol away*
Saracens away (Spurs stadium - and for comedy purposes we're travelling to Cape Town afterwards!)
Falcons home
Bath home
Tigers away

* = won't have England players

I don't think it's too defeatist to point out that 4 of the remaining 7 matches are against teams above them in the league, and 3 of those 4 are away from home. You wouldn't expect a win there, particularly with the absentees, and it'll be very hard to get back into the top 4.

[JM2K6]

In England news, I was vaguely reassured by this interview: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/ ... philosophy

Borthwick taught himself Afrikaans just so he could understand the Springboks’ lineout calls when England were on tour. But he still carried some of that old intensity. He could be monosyllabic with the press, who he resented, and like Jones he could be unforgiving of his players.

That changed in 2016, when Borthwick was on the UK Sport Elite Coaches Programme. He was asked if he would want someone to coach his kids the way he did his players. He realised he did not like the answer. “I care deeply about my players,” he says now, “and I want to help them have an incredible experience representing their country.”

[Kawazaki]

That's good to read. Very much in contrast to Eddie Jones the dinosaur who, I suspect, much like his Australian namesake suggests, that Jones is a sociopath. Low to zero empathy and a lack of self-awareness regards how his own actions affect others. You don't have to be an autocratic arsehole to be a great rugby coach.

[Paddington Bear]

I really, really hope it works out for him (and us)

[sockwithaticket]

Reassuring is definitely right.

Squad news - Slade replaced by Watson, George back into camp while he continues his return to play protocols.

[inactionman]

Reassuring is definitely right.

Squad news - Slade replaced by Watson, George back into camp while he continues his return to play protocols.

I've not caught many Leicester games, how's Watson getting on? Are they playing him at wing or fullback?

I appreciate we've got a load of options out wide but he still offers a huge amount - electric, real pace and always - pretty much without fail - beats first man when returning. Hoping he's over his injury.

[sockwithaticket]

Reassuring is definitely right.

Squad news - Slade replaced by Watson, George back into camp while he continues his return to play protocols.

I've not caught many Leicester games, how's Watson getting on? Are they playing him at wing or fullback?

I appreciate we've got a load of options out wide but he still offers a huge amount - electric, real pace and always - pretty much without fail - beats first man when returning. Hoping he's over his injury.

I haven't seen him in many either, but he's looked good in the ones I've caught where he's been in the team. Not sure about starting international good, but certainly worthy of a squad place. He's played both positions, but back on the wing once Steward was available again.

[JM2K6]

He's a much better wing option for England than fullback, but it's always good to have someone who can move there if needed. Wouldn't start him at 15 ever, it's just never worked out for him for England.

[ASMO]

He's a much better wing option for England than fullback, but it's always good to have someone who can move there if needed. Wouldn't start him at 15 ever, it's just never worked out for him for England.

He is a great bench option right now

My 23 would be something like this from that squad

Genge
George (if he is fit)
Sinkler
Itoje
Isiekwe
Earl
Dombrandt
Chessum
JVP
Smith
Lawrence
Marchant
Murley
Steward
Hassell-Collins

Watson
Mitchell
Farrell
Cole
Rodd
Dunn
Ribbans
Ludlum


but thats never going to happen, not ever

[Kawazaki]

He's a much better wing option for England than fullback, but it's always good to have someone who can move there if needed. Wouldn't start him at 15 ever, it's just never worked out for him for England.

He is a great bench option right now

My 23 would be something like this from that squad

Genge
George (if he is fit)
Sinkler
Itoje
Isiekwe
Earl
Dombrandt
Chessum
JVP
Smith
Lawrence
Marchant
Murley
Steward
Hassell-Collins

Watson
Mitchell
Farrell
Cole
Rodd
Dunn
Ribbans
Ludlum


but thats never going to happen, not ever

Not even close.

[Kawazaki]

No idea why Pearson isn't in the England squad. He'd be a super option at 6.

This is what I think Borthwick will select;


1. Genge
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Isiekwe
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt
9. JVP
10. Farrell
11. OHC
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Steward

16. Walker
17. M. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Chessum
20. Ludlam
21. Youngs
22. Smith
23. Freeman

[sockwithaticket]

I think that's probably right for Borther's selection.


Given the choice I'd go with

1. Genge, 2. George, 3. Cole, 4. Itoje, 5. Ribbans, 6. Willis, 7. Earl, 8. Dombrandt, 9. van Portvliet, 10. M. Smith, 11. Hassell - Collins, 12. Kelly, 13. Marchant 14. Murley 15. Freeman

16. Walker, 17. Rodd, 18. Sinckler, 19. Isiekwe, 20. B. Curry, 21. Mitchell, 22. Farrell, 23. Watson

[Tichtheid]

If Dan Cole and WP Nel start, they will have a combined age of 71, and they both go up a notch in a couple of months.

[inactionman]

No idea why Pearson isn't in the England squad. He'd be a super option at 6.

This is what I think Borthwick will select;


1. Genge
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Isiekwe
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt
9. JVP
10. Farrell
11. OHC
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Steward

16. Walker
17. M. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Chessum
20. Ludlam
21. Youngs
22. Smith
23. Freeman

I'd agree that, if he's going to pick Cole, it'll likely be as starter.

I'm hoping he'll go for a 6 at 6 though.

Is Curry definitely not making this one?

[sockwithaticket]

If Dan Cole and WP Nel start, they will have a combined age of 71, and they both go up a notch in a couple of months.

Is Nel still only 36? I had it in my head that he was pushing 40 by now.

[Paddington Bear]

Sadly I fear unless Hill is injured he starts

[Oxbow]

I think that's probably right for Borther's selection.


Given the choice I'd go with

1. Genge, 2. George, 3. Cole, 4. Itoje, 5. Ribbans, 6. Willis, 7. Earl, 8. Dombrandt, 9. van Portvliet, 10. M. Smith, 11. Hassell - Collins, 12. Kelly, 13. Marchant 14. Murley 15. Freeman

16. Walker, 17. Rodd, 18. Sinckler, 19. Isiekwe, 20. B. Curry, 21. Mitchell, 22. Farrell, 23. Watson

No chance of it happening, but I very much like the look of that side.

[SaintK]

No idea why Pearson isn't in the England squad. He'd be a super option at 6.

This is what I think Borthwick will select;


1. Genge
2. George
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Ribbans
6. Isiekwe
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt
9. JVP
10. Farrell
11. OHC
12. Tuilagi
13. Marchant
14. Watson
15. Steward

16. Walker
17. M. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Chessum
20. Ludlam
21. Youngs
22. Smith
23. Freeman

I'd be ok with that team
Maybe Willis at 6 and Isiekwe rather than Chessum on the bench

[JM2K6]

Sadly I fear unless Hill is injured he starts

I'm willing to give him a chance under Borthwick, who will be more interested in Hill's abilities and strengths as a player rather than his shithousery.

[Hal Jordan]

He's a much better wing option for England than fullback, but it's always good to have someone who can move there if needed. Wouldn't start him at 15 ever, it's just never worked out for him for England.

He has a whiff of Balshaw about him in the "Where do we pick him?" stakes.

[JM2K6]

He's a much better wing option for England than fullback, but it's always good to have someone who can move there if needed. Wouldn't start him at 15 ever, it's just never worked out for him for England.

He has a whiff of Balshaw about him in the "Where do we pick him?" stakes.

Bit harsh! Balshaw was a raw talent who fell apart - Watson is/was a world class wing who couldn't translate club form to England form at fullback.

[inactionman]

I'd be careful of reading too much of Watson's England appearances at 15 - he's only played there (I think) 4 times around 2018, when he was in an out-of-sorts England team as a whole and we finished 5th in the 6N.

The reason I'd like to see him there is because he's untouchable in broken play, most significantly running back clearance kicks, which is something England could do with more of. He won't do that so much at wing.

The rest of his game at 15 is sound - good positioning and defence, joins the line well an picks excellent lines. He did fumble a few for England but he's usually rock solid catching.

Prior to injury - always injury - he was superb for Bath at 15. Even in our lean years he still made yards and beat players.

Anyway, I'll end my Watson serenade and say Steward has made a very good fist of 15 for England, his only 'failing' is that none of the back 3 he played within were particularly rapid (May excepted). If Watson and/or one of the other younger lads is out wide, it's less of an issue.

[Ovals]

I'd be careful of reading too much of Watson's England appearances at 15 - he's only played there (I think) 4 times around 2018, when he was in an out-of-sorts England team as a whole and we finished 5th in the 6N.

The reason I'd like to see him there is because he's untouchable in broken play, most significantly running back clearance kicks, which is something England could do with more of. He won't do that so much at wing.

The rest of his game at 15 is sound - good positioning and defence, joins the line well an picks excellent lines. He did fumble a few for England but he's usually rock solid catching.

Prior to injury - always injury - he was superb for Bath at 15. Even in our lean years he still made yards and beat players.

Anyway, I'll end my Watson serenade and say Steward has made a very good fist of 15 for England, his only 'failing' is that none of the back 3 he played within were particularly rapid (May excepted). If Watson and/or one of the other younger lads is out wide, it's less of an issue.

I've seen Watson play a few times recently and he's looked pretty good. Given that we are lacking some experience, he'd fit in pretty well. But I wouldn't mind seeing Murley given a run.

I really hope we don't play a 5.5 at 6. We've got such riches in specialist Backrowers - if we played them it could provide a real point of difference for us.