The Official English Rugby Thread

[Ovals]

Times reckon we're shaping up as:
15 Steward
14 Malins
13 Marchant
12 Farrell
11 Hassell-Collins
10 Smith
9 JVP
1 Genge
2 George
3 Sinckler
4 Itoje
5 Chessum
6 Curry (B)
7 Ludlam
8 Dombrandt

Smith/Faz I suppose became inevitable with all the injuries but don't think it is Borthwick's long term option. Hopefully Evans has straightened them out a bit. Refreshing to pick three actual backrowers and there's pace out wide.

It's definitely good to see 3 specialist in the Backrow - but how on earth Earl isn't starting at 7, is a complete mystery. Hopefully he'll make a big splash from the bench.

Suprised Malins is preferred on the wing and the 2nd row looks a bit light - but generally it's a pretty mobile pack - hopefully that means we'll be playing to our strengths.

[inactionman]

Apparently the fix for "not good enough carrying" is actually to pick a pack with good carriers, who knew.

I've said before that Smith/Farrell can work but it requires Farrell to play like a 12 not a 10. Seen it done. Would like to see it done again. Otherwise we're just wasting time again.

Interested to see what bench split is, and who he picks - essentially, what options we'll have if it isn't clicking.

Times have this as a probable bench

Subs: J Walker, M Vunipola, D Cole, N Isiekwe, B Earl, B Youngs, O Lawrence, A Watson

Lawrence and Watson give us decent options to change it a bit, and Earl must be champing at the bit - surprised Ludlam gets nod ahead of him, but will be interesting bringing Earl's energy on against a tiring opposition.

Walker was behind Dunn at Bath, so thought Dunn may have been next cab off rank, but to be honest they're all pretty equivalent replacements with LCD and McGuigan not available.

eta: above with caveats that the Times are correct

[JM2K6]

Walker's not at Bath any more...

Not sure he's international quality but neither is Dunn, who is basically worse at the things that Walker is best at.

[inactionman]

Walker's not at Bath any more...

Not sure he's international quality but neither is Dunn, who is basically worse at the things that Walker is best at.

I'm aware that Walker is no longer at Bath.

I'm not sure I quite see one as significantly better than the other, all I note was that, as clubmates, Dunn was first choice. Dunn is older, but Walker wasn't exactly a whippersnapper.

[JM2K6]

Walker's not at Bath any more...

Not sure he's international quality but neither is Dunn, who is basically worse at the things that Walker is best at.

I'm aware that Walker is no longer at Bath.

I'm not sure I quite see one as significantly better than the other, all I note was that, as clubmates, Dunn was first choice. Dunn is older, but Walker wasn't exactly a whippersnapper.

Sure, but that was years ago. Dunn is a lesser player now. Walker a better one. It's not uncommon for players stuck behind a club stalwart to improve once they move on.

[Kawazaki]

A month ago, if you asked a thousand England fans to name the two best flankers in England, I doubt any of them would have said Ben Curry and Lewis Ludlam.

[Ovals]

A month ago, if you asked a thousand England fans to name the two best flankers in England, I doubt any of them would have said Ben Curry and Lewis Ludlam.

They still wouldn't now. It's really bizarre how England coaches prefer the more bland options. But very decent players though - but Earls and Willis would be far more dynamic without losing any of the hard work. At least we'll see Earls come on from the Bench - hopeflly he'll show why he's everyone's (bar the England coach) choice for the 7 spot.

[inactionman]

Walker's not at Bath any more...

Not sure he's international quality but neither is Dunn, who is basically worse at the things that Walker is best at.

I'm aware that Walker is no longer at Bath.

I'm not sure I quite see one as significantly better than the other, all I note was that, as clubmates, Dunn was first choice. Dunn is older, but Walker wasn't exactly a whippersnapper.

Sure, but that was years ago. Dunn is a lesser player now. Walker a better one. It's not uncommon for players stuck behind a club stalwart to improve once they move on.

It's a season and a half, after 5 seasons of reserve at Bath and 8 as a pro in total (although he was mentally young when he made his debut, after a stellar junior career) - I wasn't overjoyed when he moved on, always did a very tidy job for us. Ultimately, Dunn was consistently more effective - although he of course had the hometown hero halo.

Not quite sure about Dunn being a lesser player. He's been one of the few who appears to really give a shit even when times are tough, and he does all the things he should do well. That's not changed.

[Paddington Bear]

A month ago, if you asked a thousand England fans to name the two best flankers in England, I doubt any of them would have said Ben Curry and Lewis Ludlam.

They still wouldn't now. It's really bizarre how England coaches prefer the more bland options. But very decent players though - but Earls and Willis would be far more dynamic without losing any of the hard work. At least we'll see Earls come on from the Bench - hopeflly he'll show why he's everyone's (bar the England coach) choice for the 7 spot.

Willis played last Sunday and has flown in, not unreasonable to leave him out

[JM2K6]

I'm aware that Walker is no longer at Bath.

I'm not sure I quite see one as significantly better than the other, all I note was that, as clubmates, Dunn was first choice. Dunn is older, but Walker wasn't exactly a whippersnapper.

Sure, but that was years ago. Dunn is a lesser player now. Walker a better one. It's not uncommon for players stuck behind a club stalwart to improve once they move on.

It's a season and a half, after 5 seasons of reserve at Bath and 8 as a pro in total (although he was mentally young when he made his debut, after a stellar junior career) - I wasn't overjoyed when he moved on, always did a very tidy job for us. Ultimately, Dunn was consistently more effective - although he of course had the hometown hero halo.

Not quite sure about Dunn being a lesser player. He's been one of the few who appears to really give a shit even when times are tough, and he does all the things he should do well. That's not changed.

Ah, I don't have a very high opinion of Dunn. He's not a very bright player, has bad hands, poor discipline, and his set piece work seems to have wobbled a fair bit. No question he carries and tackles a lot, but I wouldn't have ever classed it as high impact. I was surprised when Walker turned out to be a very useful operator given he was behind Dunn at Bath, but there's no question he throws his weight around. He's a brick shithouse. Not much more than that at times, but it makes him (to me, anyway) the more effective of the two pretty-basic hookers that are Dunn and Walker.

Having said all that, there's plenty of players of about that standard that my view of is probably based on a handful of matches where I've noticed them enough to form an opinion, so it's not like I'm talking a forensic analysis of Dunn's worth as a player. Club fans are always going to have a better idea of the reality, even accounting for bias.

[inactionman]

A month ago, if you asked a thousand England fans to name the two best flankers in England, I doubt any of them would have said Ben Curry and Lewis Ludlam.

They still wouldn't now. It's really bizarre how England coaches prefer the more bland options. But very decent players though - but Earls and Willis would be far more dynamic without losing any of the hard work. At least we'll see Earls come on from the Bench - hopeflly he'll show why he's everyone's (bar the England coach) choice for the 7 spot.

It looks like a pretty big back row for Scotland - Crosbie has been excellent for Edinburgh but is a very different proposition to Watson - not sure if that's playing into thoughts?

Earl is no 9-stone weakling but Ludlam is a fair bit bigger - I've seen some stats that make him 10KG heavier but that's all with a pinch of salt.

To be honest, the thought of someone with the dynamism and workrate of Earl coming on against tired opposition is a pretty good one, even if from what I've seen he's got the engine to go a full flat-out 80 mins.

[Kawazaki]

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that England simply don't have many great players at the moment. But worse than that, England don't have any physical freaks that they can pick either. There's very little point-of-difference that you can name for England. In fact the only two English players I can think of that have a physical trait that is in the very top top percentage of world rugby players right now would be the speed merchants of Arundell and Radwan. You could also maybe say that Earl is probably one of the fastest backrow players in the world as well. Outside of those three though and what is available for England?

[Paddington Bear]

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that England simply don't have many great players at the moment. But worse than that, England don't have any physical freaks that they can pick either. There's very little point-of-difference that you can name for England. In fact the only two English players I can think of that have a physical trait that is in the very top top percentage of world rugby players right now would be the speed merchants of Arundell and Radwan. You could also maybe say that Earl is probably one of the fastest backrow players in the world as well. Outside of those three though and what is available for England?

Hmm. I would say as points of difference we have:
Two world class goal kickers
A very mobile front row that can play a power game (I'm aware of what happened in the autumn but we should also remember the absolute manshaming our scrum gave out to Ireland with 14 men)
One of the best second rows in the world
World XV full back
The wisdom and experience of a 296 cap scrum half

The rest is a work in progress but it isn't a bad place to start from

[sockwithaticket]

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that England simply don't have many great players at the moment. But worse than that, England don't have any physical freaks that they can pick either. There's very little point-of-difference that you can name for England. In fact the only two English players I can think of that have a physical trait that is in the very top top percentage of world rugby players right now would be the speed merchants of Arundell and Radwan. You could also maybe say that Earl is probably one of the fastest backrow players in the world as well. Outside of those three though and what is available for England?

Hmm. I would say as points of difference we have:
Two world class goal kickers
A very mobile front row that can play a power game (I'm aware of what happened in the autumn but we should also remember the absolute manshaming our scrum gave out to Ireland with 14 men)
One of the best second rows in the world
World XV full back
The wisdom and experience of a 296 cap scrum half

The rest is a work in progress but it isn't a bad place to start from

Steward? Possibly, but it's not exactly stiff competition internationally at the moment. A fallow field should'nt seduce us into thinking he's better than he is. I'd have Boffelli ahead of him any day.


We're able to be more physical than any team except France or South Africa, but that's about it. We'll see if Borthwick can add anything else.

[Kawazaki]

Hmm. I would say as points of difference we have:
Two world class goal kickers
A very mobile front row that can play a power game (I'm aware of what happened in the autumn but we should also remember the absolute manshaming our scrum gave out to Ireland with 14 men)
One of the best second rows in the world
World XV full back
The wisdom and experience of a 296 cap scrum half

England have good kickers but they're not exceptional, particularly on distance.

The props are mobile but against a well organised defence neither of them will break the line. Maybe if you can get Genge running in the 13 channel he'll make yards but up against the heavy traffic? No chance.

Tip-on Sinckler is barely worthy of comment to be honest, when did he last make a top carry?

Itoje is not playing his best rugby. I don't think he liked Jones so maybe Borthwick can revitalise him.

And as regards Steward, he's good at one thing and it's an important thing for a fullback and, crucially, it's a very visual thing so people notice it. Beyond that though? All very average military medium stuff. There are 3 French fullbacks I'd pick before Steward. Ireland have Keenan. Even the Italians have Capuozzo. Steward is a yeoman, he'll pick up loads of caps as first choice while a talent like Arundell will never be trusted to start. It's the English way.

[Slick]

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that England simply don't have many great players at the moment. But worse than that, England don't have any physical freaks that they can pick either. There's very little point-of-difference that you can name for England. In fact the only two English players I can think of that have a physical trait that is in the very top top percentage of world rugby players right now would be the speed merchants of Arundell and Radwan. You could also maybe say that Earl is probably one of the fastest backrow players in the world as well. Outside of those three though and what is available for England?

Hmm. I would say as points of difference we have:
Two world class goal kickers
A very mobile front row that can play a power game (I'm aware of what happened in the autumn but we should also remember the absolute manshaming our scrum gave out to Ireland with 14 men)
One of the best second rows in the world
World XV full back
The wisdom and experience of a 296 cap scrum half

The rest is a work in progress but it isn't a bad place to start from

We are all excited, but steady on old boy

[Paddington Bear]

I'm kind of resigned to the fact that England simply don't have many great players at the moment. But worse than that, England don't have any physical freaks that they can pick either. There's very little point-of-difference that you can name for England. In fact the only two English players I can think of that have a physical trait that is in the very top top percentage of world rugby players right now would be the speed merchants of Arundell and Radwan. You could also maybe say that Earl is probably one of the fastest backrow players in the world as well. Outside of those three though and what is available for England?

Hmm. I would say as points of difference we have:
Two world class goal kickers
A very mobile front row that can play a power game (I'm aware of what happened in the autumn but we should also remember the absolute manshaming our scrum gave out to Ireland with 14 men)
One of the best second rows in the world
World XV full back
The wisdom and experience of a 296 cap scrum half

The rest is a work in progress but it isn't a bad place to start from

Steward? Possibly, but it's not exactly stiff competition internationally at the moment. A fallow field should'nt seduce us into thinking he's better than he is. I'd have Boffelli ahead of him any day.


We're able to be more physical than any team except France or South Africa, but that's about it. We'll see if Borthwick can add anything else.

He was quite literally in the last World XV in fairness

[Hal Jordan]

For someone who's military medium, Steward has a surprising haul of tries, 6 in 20 caps against Australia, France, New Zealand and Japan.

[sockwithaticket]

Hmm. I would say as points of difference we have:
Two world class goal kickers
A very mobile front row that can play a power game (I'm aware of what happened in the autumn but we should also remember the absolute manshaming our scrum gave out to Ireland with 14 men)
One of the best second rows in the world
World XV full back
The wisdom and experience of a 296 cap scrum half

The rest is a work in progress but it isn't a bad place to start from

Steward? Possibly, but it's not exactly stiff competition internationally at the moment. A fallow field should'nt seduce us into thinking he's better than he is. I'd have Boffelli ahead of him any day.


We're able to be more physical than any team except France or South Africa, but that's about it. We'll see if Borthwick can add anything else.

He was quite literally in the last World XV in fairness

Which one? Googling just turns up a myriad of wolrld XVs from magazines and websites.

His main competition is Keenan and Boffelli, so it's not surprising he could make it. Like I say though, it's not like when we had prime Piutau, Folau, Hogg, Liam Williams, Brown and others all around at the same time.

[Slick]

Hmm. I would say as points of difference we have:
Two world class goal kickers
A very mobile front row that can play a power game (I'm aware of what happened in the autumn but we should also remember the absolute manshaming our scrum gave out to Ireland with 14 men)
One of the best second rows in the world
World XV full back
The wisdom and experience of a 296 cap scrum half

The rest is a work in progress but it isn't a bad place to start from

Steward? Possibly, but it's not exactly stiff competition internationally at the moment. A fallow field should'nt seduce us into thinking he's better than he is. I'd have Boffelli ahead of him any day.


We're able to be more physical than any team except France or South Africa, but that's about it. We'll see if Borthwick can add anything else.

He was quite literally in the last World XV in fairness

Also in fairness, I think he is a brilliant player and have been impressed every time I’ve seen him for England.

[sockwithaticket]

George Ford finally making his Sale debut this weekend. How long until he gets called up to England?

[Paddington Bear]

Steward? Possibly, but it's not exactly stiff competition internationally at the moment. A fallow field should'nt seduce us into thinking he's better than he is. I'd have Boffelli ahead of him any day.


We're able to be more physical than any team except France or South Africa, but that's about it. We'll see if Borthwick can add anything else.

He was quite literally in the last World XV in fairness

Also in fairness, I think he is a brilliant player and have been impressed every time I’ve seen him for England.

Yeah I wasn't suggesting he's the greatest player there's ever been but he's a talent. His tryscoring record is even more impressive when you consider how little rugby we've played during his caps!

[Margin__Walker]

As leaked. Replacements , not finishers. A new dawn

ENGLAND XV
15 Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 17 caps)
14 Max Malins (Saracens, 14 caps)
13 Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 13 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 101 caps) (C)
11 Ollie Hassell-Collins (London Irish, uncapped)
10 Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 17 caps)
9 Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers, 7 caps)
1 Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 43 caps) (VC)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 72 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 56 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 62 caps)
5 Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps)
6 Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 14 caps)
7 Ben Curry (Sale Sharks,1 cap)
8 Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 9 caps)

REPLACEMENTS
16 Jack Walker (Harlequins, uncapped)
17 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 74 caps)
18 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 95 caps)
19 Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 8 caps)
20 Ben Earl (Saracens, 13 caps)
21 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 121 caps)
22 Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 7 caps)
23 Anthony Watson (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)

[Raggs]

There's a lot of ability to move the ball around in that group.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

There's a lot of ability to move the ball around in that group.

Still depends whether they are allowed to.

Guess we will find out on Saturday.

[clydecloggie]

Lots of inexperience in that England side. Scotland can win this if the Hogg/Russell kicking axis gives another master class, the front row can deal with the physicality of Genge, George and Sinckler, the back row wins it at the breakdown, and the centres do what they do for Glasgow.

England by 1.

[Slick]

It’s not a very scary bench.

Although I wish England were playing someone else this week so I could cheer them on for using “replacements” again

[Paddington Bear]

If Smith and Faz can click we'll win, if they don't then we won't.

[ASMO]

If Smith and Faz can click we'll win, if they don't then we won't.

Honestly this obsession with shoehorning Farrell into the side when there are clearly better options available is astounding.

[SaintK]

If Smith and Faz can click we'll win, if they don't then we won't.

Honestly this obsession with shoehorning Farrell into the side when there are clearly better options available is astounding.

Yes he should have been at 10

[JM2K6]

It's not a terrible bench - some pretty high energy / high impact players there outside of the front row.

[Kawazaki]

If Smith and Faz can click we'll win, if they don't then we won't.

Honestly this obsession with shoehorning Farrell into the side when there are clearly better options available is astounding.

Farrell plays (out of position) at 12 because there clearly aren't better options available!

[SaintK]

If Smith and Faz can click we'll win, if they don't then we won't.

Honestly this obsession with shoehorning Farrell into the side when there are clearly better options available is astounding.

Farrell plays (out of position) at 12 because there clearly aren't better options available!

Shame Kelly was injured.
Hopefully Nick Evans can get more out of the Smith?Farrell axis than Jones and his jokers did.
To be honest, I'm more concerned with the lack of carrying grunt in the pack., we will be relying an awful lot on Dombrandt, Ludlum and Genge. If we can't regularly get over the gainline and win quick ball we will struggle.

[JM2K6]

Honestly this obsession with shoehorning Farrell into the side when there are clearly better options available is astounding.

Farrell plays (out of position) at 12 because there clearly aren't better options available!

Shame Kelly was injured.
Hopefully Nick Evans can get more out of the Smith?Farrell axis than Jones and his jokers did.
To be honest, I'm more concerned with the lack of carrying grunt in the pack., we will be relying an awful lot on Dombrandt, Ludlum and Genge. If we can't regularly get over the gainline and win quick ball we will struggle.

?!

It's the best carrying pack we've picked in a long time.

[Hal Jordan]

Maybe we could look for gaps and mismatches rather than one yard contact smash?

[Raggs]

Maybe we could look for gaps and mismatches rather than one yard contact smash?

Genge has a bit of a sidestep that gives him yards, Sink has lovely hands to put others through, George is no slouch with his hands either, as are a few of them.

But in the end, modern day defences don't have many holes unless you make them, which can require a few straight up smashes and quick recycles to get things going.

[Brazil]

Maybe we could look for gaps and mismatches rather than one yard contact smash?

YOU ARE LITERALLY KILLING RUGBY

[Paddington Bear]

Maybe we could look for gaps and mismatches rather than one yard contact smash?

[JM2K6]

Please stop trolling this thread Hal

[Dinsdale Piranha]

If Smith and Faz can click we'll win, if they don't then we won't.

Honestly this obsession with shoehorning Farrell into the side when there are clearly better options available is astounding.

Farrell plays (out of position) at 12 because there clearly aren't better options available!

Correct. He's the Ben Youngs of inside centres.