The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

Saints vs LI in the Cup Whose Name I Keep Forgetting this evening.

I gather James Grayson is playing, he seems to have dropped off radar a bit - assume injured? On that note, of the offspring of ex-players, what happened to Harry Mallinder? Just noticed he's out in Japan, wasn't seen as up to rigours of Premiership?

It's the rather straightforward Premiership Cup these days, but still barely worth remembering.

I'll be watching the U20s, which is also notable for offspring as Charlie Bracken is starting at 9.

[JM2K6]

Ah come now you can't be a hugely experienced rugby coach (and ex-player) with history of coaching in England and be in place as England head coach for years and not understand what the 6N represents or the difficulties it throws up.

I'm not an Aussie and I fucking get State of Origin / The Bledisloe.

Anyway, looking back on it, the autumn nations cup is probably where he had his best opportunity to halt the most recent slide and instead he doubled down, and pointed to the (pyrrhic) victory over France 'B' as being proof his methods were correct. After that was just a spiral of bad decisions, awful coaching, and a study in how not to do man management.

[Hal Jordan]

I like the pack, Itoje needs a big game and Dombrandt needs to have his feet reattached to his ankles not his wrists. Willis, I think, would have started if he hadn't been in France.

Would have been nice to see Smith at 10 with centres, but so be it. Pity Lawrence is a 13 and Slade will likely be rusty at fuck. Bet any money we finish 10 Smith, 12 Farrell.

No Youngs! No Youngs! No Youngs!

Bench props not exactly impact players.

I want more of the good stuff we saw against Scotland in attack, and less of the silly mistakes and shirt defence.

[Dragster]

Saints vs LI in the Cup Whose Name I Keep Forgetting this evening.

I gather James Grayson is playing, he seems to have dropped off radar a bit - assume injured? On that note, of the offspring of ex-players, what happened to Harry Mallinder? Just noticed he's out in Japan, wasn't seen as up to rigours of Premiership?

Grayson had been injured for quite a while, this is his first game back for Saints, though he did turn out for Bedford at the weekend.

Mallinder, who knows, doesn't seem to have played since moving to Japan and the plan was to move there to get more game time.

Didn’t really want to be a rugby player, not very tough-
Really nice lad though- mates a physio at saints said he was everybody’s favourite.

[Kawazaki]

One thing Jones did do is unite the bordies on this thread to a generally agreed opinion.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Not for me. Keep the rule in place. It keeps core England players in their prime in the domestic league.

You'll always get fringe player leaving and more established names coming past their peak at the end of a world cup cycle. A few more at the moment with the additional financial disparity, but overall the rule works imo.

We're ranked outside the top 5 and consistently playing some rubbish rugby for several decades.

You might be over-egging that somewhat.

Assuming pre-professionalism is irrelevant, then since 95 we've made 3 RWC finals and won one, we've won 7 6N titles (2 gran slams) plus a 5N title. We've held the record for T1 international successive victories. We've been ranked #1 in the world 3 times, for a total of 40 weeks - 3rd behind SA and NZ. Our worst ranking is 8th, higher than that for Argentina (12th), Australia (9th), France (10th), Ireland (9th), Scotland (12th), and Wales (10th). Only SA (7th) and NZ (5th) have a higher floor.

It's taken an eye-openingly poor run of results for us, to actually drop out of the top 5.

Fine, we've been crap since 2003. And actually played some pretty bad rugby in 2003, but won so...

So in this several = two

We have had some good games post 2003, we've some decent results during the period too, but we've never built and consistently look the part. And I'm not for saying players can just head to France and still play for England, more they need to secure an agreement on rest and release and then I'm not fussed, good luck to them earning what money they can

[dpedin]

Rather than just insult you I'd point out that we are at least partly responsible for Scotland surviving as a professional rugby nation over the years. Having a large amateur, semi-pro, and professional league structure next door that Scottish players of all levels can join with no hassles whatsoever has been hugely beneficial to Scottish professional rugby, which simply cannot sustain that sort of thing on its own. And whatever you've lost from our actions, you've more than gained back by years of selections of players who owe their professional livelihoods to English rugby and have a more tenuous link to Scottish rugby.

I don't know who put 50p in the Scottish dickheads this 6N but it's getting incredibly tiresome. I know you guys are capable of not being pricks, so maybe give it a go.

A little over the top, old boy.

It's three in a row, that's a pattern. I quite liked how this board was largely free of the dribbling parochial nonsense, and to have people sniping on this thread is just dull.

Ooops I seem to have touched a nerve here!

However at least your new coach has picked a sensible team, only playing one 10, a more mobile back row, centres playing at centre, scrum halves who will play at a decent pace and a couple of players on the bench who can turn the game if required. My only concern would be making sure Farrell plays flat at 10 and doesn't disappear into the pocket and kick possession away all the time. He needs to play flat and use Lawrence to get over the gain line, spread the ball wider off 2nd phase ball and get the ball into the hands of your wingers in attack a lot more than you did against us. Mailins and Hassell-Collins are excellent in attack but less so chasing high balls all day and defending one-on-ones.

[Margin__Walker]

OHC being bad defending one on one's is the sort of thing people who haven't watched him much say.

[sockwithaticket]

Has anyone listened to the Eddie podcast?

It's just called 'Eddie' apparently

Just googled it and the latest episode is 23 minutes. Quality content, I'm sure.

[Kawazaki]

My only concern would be making sure Farrell plays flat at 10 and doesn't disappear into the pocket and kick possession away all the time. He needs to play flat and use Lawrence to get over the gain line, spread the ball wider off 2nd phase ball and get the ball into the hands of your wingers in attack a lot more than you did against us. Mailins and Hassell-Collins are excellent in attack but less so chasing high balls all day and defending one-on-ones.

Default Farrell plays very flat for his club so if he is sitting deep he is playing to a Borthwick plan.

[shaggy]

My only concern would be making sure Farrell plays flat at 10 and doesn't disappear into the pocket and kick possession away all the time. He needs to play flat and use Lawrence to get over the gain line, spread the ball wider off 2nd phase ball and get the ball into the hands of your wingers in attack a lot more than you did against us. Mailins and Hassell-Collins are excellent in attack but less so chasing high balls all day and defending one-on-ones.

Default Farrell plays very flat for his club so if he is sitting deep he is playing to a Borthwick plan.

No idea why you all keep responding to those that keep coming here to gloat or opine.

They never add any value and always resort to offence in the end.

Bin them the duck off first up.

[PCPhil]

We're ranked outside the top 5 and consistently playing some rubbish rugby for several decades.

You might be over-egging that somewhat.

Assuming pre-professionalism is irrelevant, then since 95 we've made 3 RWC finals and won one, we've won 7 6N titles (2 gran slams) plus a 5N title. We've held the record for T1 international successive victories. We've been ranked #1 in the world 3 times, for a total of 40 weeks - 3rd behind SA and NZ. Our worst ranking is 8th, higher than that for Argentina (12th), Australia (9th), France (10th), Ireland (9th), Scotland (12th), and Wales (10th). Only SA (7th) and NZ (5th) have a higher floor.

It's taken an eye-openingly poor run of results for us, to actually drop out of the top 5.

Fine, we've been crap since 2003. And actually played some pretty bad rugby in 2003, but won so...

So in this several = two

We have had some good games post 2003, we've some decent results during the period too, but we've never built and consistently look the part. And I'm not for saying players can just head to France and still play for England, more they need to secure an agreement on rest and release and then I'm not fussed, good luck to them earning what money they can

Can’t fully agree. We had some great rugby up until the 2019 final. To beat Aus, NZ and SA on successive weekends to win would have been the greatest. Ran out of steam at the last lap.

[JM2K6]

A little over the top, old boy.

It's three in a row, that's a pattern. I quite liked how this board was largely free of the dribbling parochial nonsense, and to have people sniping on this thread is just dull.

Ooops I seem to have touched a nerve here!

However at least your new coach has picked a sensible team, only playing one 10, a more mobile back row, centres playing at centre, scrum halves who will play at a decent pace and a couple of players on the bench who can turn the game if required. My only concern would be making sure Farrell plays flat at 10 and doesn't disappear into the pocket and kick possession away all the time. He needs to play flat and use Lawrence to get over the gain line, spread the ball wider off 2nd phase ball and get the ball into the hands of your wingers in attack a lot more than you did against us. Mailins and Hassell-Collins are excellent in attack but less so chasing high balls all day and defending one-on-ones.

Thanks for the deep insight, saved me from having to read Stephen Jones or Wales Online. You "touched a nerve" because you came on here to have a spray at English rugby. Fuck off already.

[JM2K6]

We're ranked outside the top 5 and consistently playing some rubbish rugby for several decades.

You might be over-egging that somewhat.

Assuming pre-professionalism is irrelevant, then since 95 we've made 3 RWC finals and won one, we've won 7 6N titles (2 gran slams) plus a 5N title. We've held the record for T1 international successive victories. We've been ranked #1 in the world 3 times, for a total of 40 weeks - 3rd behind SA and NZ. Our worst ranking is 8th, higher than that for Argentina (12th), Australia (9th), France (10th), Ireland (9th), Scotland (12th), and Wales (10th). Only SA (7th) and NZ (5th) have a higher floor.

It's taken an eye-openingly poor run of results for us, to actually drop out of the top 5.

Fine, we've been crap since 2003. And actually played some pretty bad rugby in 2003, but won so...

So in this several = two

We have had some good games post 2003, we've some decent results during the period too, but we've never built and consistently look the part. And I'm not for saying players can just head to France and still play for England, more they need to secure an agreement on rest and release and then I'm not fussed, good luck to them earning what money they can

"And actually played some pretty bad rugby in 2003, but won so..."

Oh come ON.

We haven't been consistent since 2003 but we've managed to put together some good teams that produced for a while. So no, we've not been crap since 2003. Crap teams don't win a Grand Slam or get to two world cup finals or win multiple tournaments or get to #1 in the world or have the record number of consecutive victories or beat the shit out 3 of the 4 RC sides in consecutive matches at a big tournament.

It's ridiculous to say we've been consistently anything. Including consistently crap.

And I just don't see how France changes any of that?

[Kawazaki]

Even I give Eddie Jones credit up to the final in 2019. He'd clearly lost interest in the job in 2020 though and it just got worse and worse. His overall net contribution to English rugby is negative - by a lot.

[Joost]

EJ probably should’ve gone after the 2022 6 nations, when it was clear that we were going backwards (think the SA win from the autumn before saved him) - would’ve given the new coaching regime some time to get up and runnning and have plenty of time with the players, a new EPS and two competitive tournaments to get in shape for the RWC. The current situation is a massive hospital pass for Borthwick and Co.

As badly as things have gone downhill, Eddie’s time will still show up well with some hindsight - statistically the most successful England coach ever in-terms of his win percentage and actually returned England to winning tournaments after a decade of utter mediocrity (at best) - the incredible run the team went on as soon as he arrived, the win over the ABs in the semi, taking Ireland to pieces in Dublin were all unimaginable under Lancaster and the others. There was bad stuff also - finishing 5th in the 6N, becoming the Scots’ bunnies, some of the bizarre selection calls towards the end, but I’d be pretty happy if Borthwick can attain the highs of Eddie’s regime.

[sockwithaticket]

EJ probably should’ve gone after the 2022 6 nations, when it was clear that we were going backwards (think the SA win from the autumn before saved him) - would’ve given the new coaching regime some time to get up and runnning and have plenty of time with the players, a new EPS and two competitive tournaments to get in shape for the RWC. The current situation is a massive hospital pass for Borthwick and Co.

As badly as things have gone downhill, Eddie’s time will still show up well with some hindsight - statistically the most successful England coach ever in-terms of his win percentage and actually returned England to winning tournaments after a decade of utter mediocrity (at best) - the incredible run the team went on as soon as he arrived, the win over the ABs in the semi, taking Ireland to pieces in Dublin were all unimaginable under Lancaster and the others. There was bad stuff also - finishing 5th in the 6N, becoming the Scots’ bunnies, some of the bizarre selection calls towards the end, but I’d be pretty happy if Borthwick can attain the highs of Eddie’s regime.

I won't brook this Lancaster slander. 4 from 5 against Ireland, including an absolute thumping (30 - 9); 80% 6N win rate, first win against the ABs since the World Cup winning team.

Jones should have gone after the 2019 world cup. Signs were there in the gradual performance decline of 2017 and then results decline of 2018 of the worst he had to offer. The 2021 6N is the absolute latest we should've chucked him.

[Raggs]

Yeah, Lancaster shit the bed when he panicked over the world cup and the pre RWC camp, but he'd done a good job up until that.

[tc27]

Yeah, Lancaster shit the bed when he panicked over the world cup and the pre RWC camp, but he'd done a good job up until that.

Yeah but he really really shat the bed at a home world cup.

I have managed to mostly erase 2015 from my head but we lost to Wales C at Twickenham and got absolutely mullered by the Wallabies. No to mention the conditioning was all wrong and the absolute trainwreck of bringing in Slammin' Sam

[Joost]

Yeah, Lancaster shit the bed when he panicked over the world cup and the pre RWC camp, but he'd done a good job up until that.

…and yet he’d won nothing. He was a step in the right direction and brought through some young players, had some good wins and restored some pride, but we shat the bed massively in Cardiff (when we just had to not lose by a load to win the 6N) and the RWC was just a horror show - he was a player development or a juniors coach kinda guy, not a head coach.

[sockwithaticket]

Yeah, Lancaster shit the bed when he panicked over the world cup and the pre RWC camp, but he'd done a good job up until that.

…and yet he’d won nothing. He was a step in the right direction and brought through some young players, had some good wins and restored some pride, but we shat the bed massively in Cardiff (when we just had to not lose by a load to win the 6N) and the RWC was just a horror show - he was a player development or a juniors coach kinda guy, not a head coach.

You say that like there's much to win at international level. In terms of actual competitions there is only the 6N and the world cup for a tier 1 NH team. Do you think Wales were a better team than England between 2012 and 2015? They won the 6N twice, but they couldn't beg or borrow wins against the SH and had a worse overall winning record.

As an aside, he won 4/4 Calcutta cups, which is certainly more than Eddie can say...

[JM2K6]

Yeah, Lancaster shit the bed when he panicked over the world cup and the pre RWC camp, but he'd done a good job up until that.

…and yet he’d won nothing. He was a step in the right direction and brought through some young players, had some good wins and restored some pride, but we shat the bed massively in Cardiff (when we just had to not lose by a load to win the 6N) and the RWC was just a horror show - he was a player development or a juniors coach kinda guy, not a head coach.

Johnno won a 6N. You're having a fucking laugh if you think that makes him the better of the two.

[Kawazaki]

Even if he'd won Grandslams before, Lancaster's position was untenable after RWC15. It was shambolic.

[sockwithaticket]

Even if he'd won Grandslams before, Lancaster's position was untenable after RWC15. It was shambolic.

Absolutely, but he was being lumped in with the mediocrity of those that preceded him which simply isn't on.

[Joost]

Yeah, Lancaster shit the bed when he panicked over the world cup and the pre RWC camp, but he'd done a good job up until that.

…and yet he’d won nothing. He was a step in the right direction and brought through some young players, had some good wins and restored some pride, but we shat the bed massively in Cardiff (when we just had to not lose by a load to win the 6N) and the RWC was just a horror show - he was a player development or a juniors coach kinda guy, not a head coach.

Johnno won a 6N. You're having a fucking laugh if you think that makes him the better of the two.

Did I say anything about Johnno?

Lancaster did good work after successive shambolic regimes, but even if you forget the RWC (and God haven’t we all tried!) his teams didn’t win the 6N and never looked in danger of becoming a dominant team. My point was that Jones had taken to England to highs that hadn’t looked likely since Woodward. Lancaster was a step in the right direction and had some good wins, but he fell far short of producing a team that could dominate the ABs in a RWC semi or go on a record-breaking run.

Though I take the point that we never lost to f’ing Scotland on his watch!

[tc27]

Yeah, Lancaster shit the bed when he panicked over the world cup and the pre RWC camp, but he'd done a good job up until that.

…and yet he’d won nothing. He was a step in the right direction and brought through some young players, had some good wins and restored some pride, but we shat the bed massively in Cardiff (when we just had to not lose by a load to win the 6N) and the RWC was just a horror show - he was a player development or a juniors coach kinda guy, not a head coach.

You say that like there's much to win at international level. In terms of actual competitions there is only the 6N and the world cup for a tier 1 NH team. Do you think Wales were a better team than England between 2012 and 2015? They won the 6N twice, but they couldn't beg or borrow wins against the SH and had a worse overall winning record.

As an aside, he won 4/4 Calcutta cups, which is certainly more than Eddie can say...

They won two Grand Slams and beat England in two huge games (the 6N decider and the RWC pool game)...so yes?!

[Paddington Bear]

Yeah, Lancaster shit the bed when he panicked over the world cup and the pre RWC camp, but he'd done a good job up until that.

…and yet he’d won nothing. He was a step in the right direction and brought through some young players, had some good wins and restored some pride, but we shat the bed massively in Cardiff (when we just had to not lose by a load to win the 6N) and the RWC was just a horror show - he was a player development or a juniors coach kinda guy, not a head coach.

You say that like there's much to win at international level. In terms of actual competitions there is only the 6N and the world cup for a tier 1 NH team. Do you think Wales were a better team than England between 2012 and 2015? They won the 6N twice, but they couldn't beg or borrow wins against the SH and had a worse overall winning record.

As an aside, he won 4/4 Calcutta cups, which is certainly more than Eddie can say...

Scotland were absolute dogshit though, it’s hard to make a long term comparison between a team that’s gone from Dan Parks to Finn Russell

[Paddington Bear]

…and yet he’d won nothing. He was a step in the right direction and brought through some young players, had some good wins and restored some pride, but we shat the bed massively in Cardiff (when we just had to not lose by a load to win the 6N) and the RWC was just a horror show - he was a player development or a juniors coach kinda guy, not a head coach.

You say that like there's much to win at international level. In terms of actual competitions there is only the 6N and the world cup for a tier 1 NH team. Do you think Wales were a better team than England between 2012 and 2015? They won the 6N twice, but they couldn't beg or borrow wins against the SH and had a worse overall winning record.

As an aside, he won 4/4 Calcutta cups, which is certainly more than Eddie can say...

They won two Grand Slams and beat England in two huge games (the 6N decider and the RWC pool game)...so yes?!

They had our number, the point on playing the SH is salient as we were clearly more talented. Lancaster has many skills but his side consistently lacked bottle and bite. The win in Cardiff in 2015 after the tunnel stand off remains the ultimate England false dawn for me, genuinely thought we’d turned a corner and then a few months later our scrum is manshamed by the Aussies as we lose by 20 points

[sockwithaticket]

…and yet he’d won nothing. He was a step in the right direction and brought through some young players, had some good wins and restored some pride, but we shat the bed massively in Cardiff (when we just had to not lose by a load to win the 6N) and the RWC was just a horror show - he was a player development or a juniors coach kinda guy, not a head coach.

You say that like there's much to win at international level. In terms of actual competitions there is only the 6N and the world cup for a tier 1 NH team. Do you think Wales were a better team than England between 2012 and 2015? They won the 6N twice, but they couldn't beg or borrow wins against the SH and had a worse overall winning record.

As an aside, he won 4/4 Calcutta cups, which is certainly more than Eddie can say...

Scotland were absolute dogshit though, it’s hard to make a long term comparison between a team that’s gone from Dan Parks to Finn Russell

The current Scotland side has a much worse recent record than us against current big dogs like Ireland, New Zealand and South Africa; not France though, curiously. We're even against them. Scotland are better than they were, for sure, but not to the extent that our recent clashes should be so skewed in their favour given what we're capable of doing to teams who still routinely beat them.

[Bullet]

Is that the worst england shirt they've worn for a while? Thought that last week and my teen confirmed it today liking everything I didn't.
The neck line instead of a collar, the hoops on arm and 'pattern' on front and worst of all the font chosen for numbers.

Has anyone spent £60 on a replica for watching the world cup?

[Paddington Bear]

Yeah it’s awful, keep these things simple and traditional.
Wouldn’t buy one, have an old style cotton shirt which does fine. As I saw last week, most rugby fans should under no circumstances consider wearing a new style rugby shirt for bulge related reasons…

[sockwithaticket]

I only ever buy supporter shirts or polos. Cotton, collar and not skin tight (even though I can pull that off ). The two polos are completely plain bar the England rose.

Unequivocally the best shirt in my small collection is the 2010 Wales - England centenary



Lovely kit.

[notfatcat]

I only ever buy supporter shirts or polos. Cotton, collar and not skin tight (even though I can pull that off ). The two polos are completely plain bar the England rose.

Unequivocally the best shirt in my small collection is the 2010 Wales - England centenary



Lovely kit.

That's a fine shirt. In hindsight I wish I'd bought one, and wish I'd bought the similarly old-fashioned Quins one from a few years ago which celebrated something like the 150th anniversary. I have two England replicas , both from around 2002/03. There's a bit of red in them but it's not too bad. I haven't worn one in anger for years and just tried on my 2 England and 2 Lions shirts - I'd forgotten how absolutely huge they make/used to make rugby replicas.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Yeah it’s awful, keep these things simple and traditional.
Wouldn’t buy one, have an old style cotton shirt which does fine. As I saw last week, most rugby fans should under no circumstances consider wearing a new style rugby shirt for bulge related reasons…

There are players who look daft enough in the new shirts

[sockwithaticket]

I only ever buy supporter shirts or polos. Cotton, collar and not skin tight (even though I can pull that off ). The two polos are completely plain bar the England rose.

Unequivocally the best shirt in my small collection is the 2010 Wales - England centenary



Lovely kit.

That's a fine shirt. In hindsight I wish I'd bought one, and wish I'd bought the similarly old-fashioned Quins one from a few years ago which celebrated something like the 150th anniversary. I have two England replicas , both from around 2002/03. There's a bit of red in them but it's not too bad. I haven't worn one in anger for years and just tried on my 2 England and 2 Lions shirts - I'd forgotten how absolutely huge they make/used to make rugby replicas.

Wasps' 150th supporter shirt is great too. It's good that they can get these anniversary shirts right, makes you wonder how some of the regular kits get approved.

[youthleth]

I only ever buy supporter shirts or polos. Cotton, collar and not skin tight (even though I can pull that off ). The two polos are completely plain bar the England rose.

Unequivocally the best shirt in my small collection is the 2010 Wales - England centenary



Lovely kit.

That's a fine shirt. In hindsight I wish I'd bought one, and wish I'd bought the similarly old-fashioned Quins one from a few years ago which celebrated something like the 150th anniversary. I have two England replicas , both from around 2002/03. There's a bit of red in them but it's not too bad. I haven't worn one in anger for years and just tried on my 2 England and 2 Lions shirts - I'd forgotten how absolutely huge they make/used to make rugby replicas.

Haven't they packed you off to mumsnet, yet?

[notfatcat]

Haven't they packed you off to mumsnet, yet?

They keep trying but I can only ever stick on there for 3 or 4 months at a time. It's a gradual transition I suspect.

On the plus side I'm halfway through embroidering a fancy pillow sham.

[Kawazaki]

Sorry to labour this point, but if anyone wants to know why Steward at fullback for England will be a handbrake on the way they'll ever be capable of playing while he's at 15, just watch what the fullbacks are doing in the Ireland v France match.

You just can't have a slow player at fullback, it's a massive handicap.

[tc27]

Enjoying this game but not nice contemplating we have to play them both stil.

[Raggs]

Enjoying this game but not nice contemplating we have to play them both stil.

We don't beat either on last games showing. The nice thing is that Italy is now a worthwhile challenge to gauge ourselves on to at least some degree.