Ireland v France match thread

[Torquemada 1420]

Should have been down to 14 for the rest of the game anyway

2 things:

1) What has lard arse Atonio's actions got to do with the outcome of whether Lowe's effort was a try or not? And it clearly was not as rugby continues to make an arse of itself. FWIW, I said it was poor reffing again by Barnes who could not have had a scoobies over whether the ball had been grounded and so had no right to proclaim "on field decision, try".

2) Back to useless, lard arse, there has been much debate across the media on that. For me, it was red in the spirit of what we are trying to eliminate from the game. I also thought Turner was red for Sco too. Both players escaped on long reach technicalities IMHO. On lard arse, I can see what Barnes (and other commentators) are getting at BUT Atonio made no effort to get low and that really needs to come into the discussion more in these incidents.

Anyway, I agree with you but the incidents are unrelated.

[Winnie]

Because it was after he placed the ball down.

The ball is a foot above the ground in that picture!

Also confirmed by video footage..

It’s also a great angle of the no arms tackle. Penalty try.

Yep
There was no effort made at all to tackle Lowe
It’s a shoulder charge

[Munster-fogs]

Should have been down to 14 for the rest of the game anyway

I do believe Lowes try probably shouldn't have stood, but considering Barnes shat the bed and didn't issue a red card it evens out. France were blowing hard towards the end of the match, they'd have been completely gassed had they been reduced to 14 and may very well have let in a couple more trys.

[Torquemada 1420]

The ball is a foot above the ground in that picture!

Also confirmed by video footage..

It’s also a great angle of the no arms tackle. Penalty try.

Yep
There was no effort made at all to tackle Lowe
It’s a shoulder charge

I wondered why that didn't come into discussion at all at the time. This has been brought up many times now i.e. what is a defender to do if an attacker goes airborne like Lowe did? And the authorities have remained silent because the implication is that they'd created a condition where competing fairly for the ball was impossible. Hence why I think refs across the piece ignore those situations.

I think Penaud did everything that was humanely possible (and it was an incredible effort at defending too for someone who is routinely a weak defender) to tackle fairly. But the laws as strictly applied make it impossible to legitimately stop in that scenario.

[Torquemada 1420]

Had that argument with my old man.
Definitely no arm shoulder barge.

But theoretically Lowe is jumping into the tackle. Or is it stipulated that jumping into tackles is OK in the act of scoring a try? Obviously the entertainment value of those type of tries should trump silly rules if the infringement does not present a danger to opponent players.

Yes. Good post. See mine above. It's why I think refs ignore it.

[Torquemada 1420]

France have peaked and are on the way down. Lucky not to have had another 20 put on them.

Ireland and NZ favourites for the RWC now. Saffas and France may spring some suprises, but I suspect not.

They haven't peaked. They are the youngest team among the Tier 1 teams. Ireland is just head and shoulders above other nations right now. And a number of French players are just toast because of Top14+Heineken Cup+international demand.

France might have peaked. This is going to depend upon correct selection, correct tactics and whether players end up being burned out (as you highlight). Alldritt is clearly knackered for one.

Ire are not head and shoulders above everyone but they are no1. They have their vulnerabilities too: if an aged, concussion magnet Sexton doesn't make it through the RWC, they are not winning it.

[Duff Paddy]

It’s also a great angle of the no arms tackle. Penalty try.

Yep
There was no effort made at all to tackle Lowe
It’s a shoulder charge

I wondered why that didn't come into discussion at all at the time. This has been brought up many times now i.e. what is a defender to do if an attacker goes airborne like Lowe did? And the authorities have remained silent because the implication is that they'd created a condition where competing fairly for the ball was impossible. Hence why I think refs across the piece ignore those situations.

I think Penaud did everything that was humanely possible (and it was an incredible effort at defending too for someone who is routinely a weak defender) to tackle fairly. But the laws as strictly applied make it impossible to legitimately stop in that scenario.

Sorry Torq but “everything humanely possible” would mean he made an effort to wrap the arms, which he clearly did not

[Torquemada 1420]

Had that argument with my old man.
Definitely no arm shoulder barge.

But theoretically Lowe is jumping into the tackle. Or is it stipulated that jumping into tackles is OK in the act of scoring a try? Obviously the entertainment value of those type of tries should trump silly rules if the infringement does not present a danger to opponent players.

So, here are the Laws:

Law 9.17.
A player must not tackle an opponent whose feet are off the ground

So carte blanche for any ball carrier to make himself immune from being tackled?

Law 9.11
Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others

Hence the contradiction. You could argue both Laws were broken in which case do you penalise Lowe because his infringement was first or is it a reverse pen because Penaud is argued as subsequent foul play? Whatever, it was not a try either
- because Lowe's foot was clearly down
- or, at best, it was a reverse pen in Ireland's favour

[Torquemada 1420]

Sorry Torq but “everything humanely possible” would mean he made an effort to wrap the arms, which he clearly did not

You are in Lala Land if you think it's possible to get even close to wrapping in that scenario.

[Duff Paddy]

Sorry Torq but “everything humanely possible” would mean he made an effort to wrap the arms, which he clearly did not

You are in Lala Land if you think it's possible to get even close to wrapping in that scenario.

Of course you can, it just wouldn’t have gotten him into touch. Players have always been allowed to go off their feet in the act of trying to touch the ball down for a try, it’s not analogous to trying to jump to evade a tackle in open play. Diving to place the ball is not reckless or dangerous to Penaud there - it merely prevents Penaud from being able to execute a legal try saving tackle.

[MungoMan]

Had that argument with my old man.
Definitely no arm shoulder barge.

But theoretically Lowe is jumping into the tackle. Or is it stipulated that jumping into tackles is OK in the act of scoring a try? Obviously the entertainment value of those type of tries should trump silly rules if the infringement does not present a danger to opponent players.

So, here are the Laws:

Law 9.17.
A player must not tackle an opponent whose feet are off the ground

So carte blanche for any ball carrier to make himself immune from being tackled?

Law 9.11
Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others

Hence the contradiction. You could argue both Laws were broken in which case do you penalise Lowe because his infringement was first or is it a reverse pen because Penaud is argued as subsequent foul play? Whatever, it was not a try either
- because Lowe's foot was clearly down
- or, at best, it was a reverse pen in Ireland's favour

The problem here is the human running gait entails both feet being off the ground at some point of the stride. Taking a black letter law approach to Law 9.11 would result in a penalty against anyone tackling a player whose feet were both off the ground at point of contact.

In most instances this could be discerned only via slo-mo footage (unavoidable pun) of the tackle in question. Yet the tackler must rely on human eyaballs V1.0.

It would be sensible to rewrite this law so it captures only the evil to be avoided and nothing else.

[redderneck]

No sympathy for Penaud. He did precisely the same later on when he smashed Sexton who was punting the ball. Got the timing just right, which was all Barnes cared about, calling it as much, whilst utterly ignoring the no arms aspect.

All the talk about peaking early re teams - he's not the ref he once was...

[Duff Paddy]

No sympathy for Penaud. He did precisely the same later on when he smashed Sexton who was punting the ball. Got the timing just right, which was all Barnes cared about, calling it as much, whilst utterly ignoring the no arms aspect.

All the talk about peaking early re teams - he's not the ref he once was...

He’s still a very good ref to be fair

[Mr Bungle]

It’s also a great angle of the no arms tackle. Penalty try.

Yep
There was no effort made at all to tackle Lowe
It’s a shoulder charge

I wondered why that didn't come into discussion at all at the time. This has been brought up many times now i.e. what is a defender to do if an attacker goes airborne like Lowe did? And the authorities have remained silent because the implication is that they'd created a condition where competing fairly for the ball was impossible. Hence why I think refs across the piece ignore those situations.

I think Penaud did everything that was humanely possible (and it was an incredible effort at defending too for someone who is routinely a weak defender) to tackle fairly. But the laws as strictly applied make it impossible to legitimately stop in that scenario.

He just got his arms underneath Lowe, albeit rather ineffectually. That won’t stop our Irish brothers arguing for the letter of the law, as they see it, being imposed. Defenders always seem to be given more leeway when defending on the tryline. And in this case the contact was minimal.

[sockwithaticket]

The ball is a foot above the ground in that picture!

Also confirmed by video footage..

It’s also a great angle of the no arms tackle. Penalty try.

Yep
There was no effort made at all to tackle Lowe
It’s a shoulder charge

While true, tackles that skirt legality or are just flat out illegal have long been given a pass whe it comes to an act of scoring unless it's particularly egregious. A penalty try for the Lowe situation if a regular one wasn't awarded, would be an extremely unusual ruling.

[PornDog]

Talk of Atonio not getting low misses the point (he didn't of course and that's relevant, but it's not the starting point). The issue is that his arm was tucked and he led with the shoulder. And this was not once referred to by anyone - ref or commentator alike.

It was a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the force of the collision. I'm not trying to hang Atonio out to dry here because World Rugby has allowed this type of "tackle" to become almost ubiquitous, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the level of force.

Not all shoulder contacts are necessarily like that, but where it is, a deliberate tuck, the starting point no matter the contact area or amount of force, should be a yellow card. If its with high force, again regardless of contact area, it should be upgraded to red. They are just far too dangerous and far too common. World Rugby is asleep at the wheel.

If someone is tripped we'd all be calling for a yellow, but a shoulder is much much more dangerous than a trip. It's crazy this has been allowed to become so common.

[Jim Lahey]

I'd need to rewatch the game without the stress involved to verify, but my impression was that Barnes rode the French all game, with the (big) exception of the YC that should've been red.

Ireland were still the much better team and worth the win.

[Jim Lahey]

I'd need to rewatch the game without the stress involved to verify, but my impression was that Barnes rode the French all game, with the (big) exception of the YC that should've been red.

Ireland were still the much better team and worth the win.

Nah. Second half we got a few decisions but they got a few bits as well. Forward here knee on the ground there

McCloskey got away with one on our line. Definitely off his feet at one point of his turnover but Barnes rewarded him. This was after VDF was lying on the wrong side of the ruck slowing French ball a phase or 2 before.

There was also that nonsense pen for Murray getting hit in the air. Was bugger all in it imo.

But still, we were well worth our margin of victory.

[Ted.]

Makes you wonder why they didn't show this angle at the time?

Good point, taken out in the air, red card and penalty try

Well technically, he's not in the air is he, he has a hoof down, albeit outside the field of play.

[Camroc2]

When you see it in real time, his hoof isn't down, it is moving, and the movement is continuous. He probably brushed the grass, and at the time I thought the try wouldn't be given. But because the foot in touch thing isn't "clear and obvious", Barnes's on field decision of "try" stood.

[Jim Lahey]

Its one of those tries that if its for your team you'll try and find numerous reasons for its justification. If its against your team then you'd be furious.

[Mr Bungle]

Its one of those tries that if its for your team you'll try and find numerous reasons for its justification. If its against your team then you'd be furious.

I see it as Cammy above saw it.

But going by Lowe’s reaction after, I think he knew he’d scraped the deck.

[shereblue]

Does it? His foot certainly touched the grass after he grounded the ball, which we can’t see in that gif

Touching the grass after the grounding was way later on. And no where near the touch line... the ball was a foot in the air before being grounded at the point he touched the ground...

Obvious from that. A poor decision but perhaps poor direction from the TV.

For those swearing blind that Penaud tackled Lowe in the air, sorry but Penaud's contact with Lowe was in fact BEFORE Lowe left the ground.

Although Penaud's wrap seems to be between Lowe's stomach and his balls, it also seems a reasonable attempt to wrap and short of "no arms" - how many tackles are a perfect wrap?



If this link doesn't work, see link further above and go 9 replies down to Andrew, look at the one reply and then under "more replies" for a clear pic)

[Winnie]

I'd need to rewatch the game without the stress involved to verify, but my impression was that Barnes rode the French all game, with the (big) exception of the YC that should've been red.

Ireland were still the much better team and worth the win.

I think Barnes had a good game

[Winnie]

Its one of those tries that if its for your team you'll try and find numerous reasons for its justification. If its against your team then you'd be furious.

I see it as Cammy above saw it.

But going by Lowe’s reaction after, I think he knew he’d scraped the deck.

By the laws of physics there is no way his foot didn’t touch the deck
Barnes saying on field decision was a try was the reason it was given
Had the on field decision been no try it would not have been overturned
It was that marginal

[shabadoo]

Its one of those tries that if its for your team you'll try and find numerous reasons for its justification. If its against your team then you'd be furious.

I see it as Cammy above saw it.

But going by Lowe’s reaction after, I think he knew he’d scraped the deck.

That was my read too. Tbh even on the camera angle we saw during the TMO review I thought it was obvious he was out.

[shereblue]

Belated congratulations to Ireland. Great Fre defence for 70' and still 4 tries to one! Doris spectacular. Notwithstanding home advantage, you certainly established clear green water at the top.

Atonio should of course have been sent off and the fact that he wasn't avoids any 15 v 14 diminution of your achievement.

From a Fre perspective, Torque is spot on with his criticism of Galthie's bizarre decision to play Jalibert at 15. Moving Ntmack and Moefana along the line and bringing in Jalibert at 10 would have made more sense.

More worryingly generally for France (and their love of defence, turnover and counter), the more restricted opportunities to challenge at rucks may see a muting of their strengths in unstructured attacking. (Per Frog?)

We can all pick over freeze frames and replays. There is an officiating team out there but Barnes himself only has two eyes. There is a game to manage and I thought Barnes' handling of the game helped the players produce the spectacle that they did.

[lemonhead]

You watch rugby for a while, you know mistakes get made. Refs are rarely bent, though the home and/or attacking side often gets the rub of the green.

It's not a courtroom drama - best you can hope for is a ref's intervention doesn't decide a game, so in this case we're grand.

[CM11]

Belated congratulations to Ireland. Great Fre defence for 70' and still 4 tries to one! Doris spectacular. Notwithstanding home advantage, you certainly established clear green water at the top.

Atonio should of course have been sent off and the fact that he wasn't avoids any 15 v 14 diminution of your achievement.

From a Fre perspective, Torque is spot on with his criticism of Galthie's bizarre decision to play Jalibert at 15. Moving Ntmack and Moefana along the line and bringing in Jalibert at 10 would have made more sense.

More worryingly generally for France (and their love of defence, turnover and counter), the more restricted opportunities to challenge at rucks may see a muting of their strengths in unstructured attacking. (Per Frog?)

We can all pick over freeze frames and replays. There is an officiating team out there but Barnes himself only has two eyes. There is a game to manage and I thought Barnes' handling of the game helped the players produce the spectacle that they did.

Good post.

[Duff Paddy]

Touching the grass after the grounding was way later on. And no where near the touch line... the ball was a foot in the air before being grounded at the point he touched the ground...

Obvious from that. A poor decision but perhaps poor direction from the TV.

For those swearing blind that Penaud tackled Lowe in the air, sorry but Penaud's contact with Lowe was in fact BEFORE Lowe left the ground.

Although Penaud's wrap seems to be between Lowe's stomach and his balls, it also seems a reasonable attempt to wrap and short of "no arms" - how many tackles are a perfect wrap?



If this link doesn't work, see link further above and go 9 replies down to Andrew, look at the one reply and then under "more replies" for a clear pic)

It’s a wrap in so much as yes his arms are still attached to his torso but it was a clear body check and there was so attempt to wrap arms around the player

[Duff Paddy]

Talk of Atonio not getting low misses the point (he didn't of course and that's relevant, but it's not the starting point). The issue is that his arm was tucked and he led with the shoulder. And this was not once referred to by anyone - ref or commentator alike.

It was a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the force of the collision. I'm not trying to hang Atonio out to dry here because World Rugby has allowed this type of "tackle" to become almost ubiquitous, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a deliberate act of foul play with the intent to increase the level of force.

Not all shoulder contacts are necessarily like that, but where it is, a deliberate tuck, the starting point no matter the contact area or amount of force, should be a yellow card. If its with high force, again regardless of contact area, it should be upgraded to red. They are just far too dangerous and far too common. World Rugby is asleep at the wheel.

If someone is tripped we'd all be calling for a yellow, but a shoulder is much much more dangerous than a trip. It's crazy this has been allowed to become so common.

I thought Barnes had a good game overall but his “not a high degree of danger” for that incident was baffling - it doesn’t get much more dangerous than a 6’4 20 stone monster shouldering you in the head

[TheFrog]

Re: France having peaked.

What we saw was that France struggled to prevent Irish possession. They could not find anyway to turn over the ball. Thst is one big change.

The other one is that France changed its tactics and try to play ball in hand, including attacking from our 22s. And we are clearly not there yet. So far, we had almost exclusively fed from turnovers or launched attacks from set piece in the opposition 22s. This time we tried to run the ball often and failed. Most of it was down to Ireland being very effective at slowing our ball. I would like to see the stats showing French rucks speed vs Ireland. For all the - deserved criticism - of Ntamack, a good attack starts with fast rucks.

[Duff Paddy]

Re: France having peaked.

What we saw was that France struggled to prevent Irish possession. They could not find anyway to turn over the ball. Thst is one big change.

The other one is that France changed its tactics and try to play ball in hand, including attacking from our 22s. And we are clearly not there yet. So far, we had almost exclusively fed from turnovers or launched attacks from set piece in the opposition 22s. This time we tried to run the ball often and failed. Most of it was down to Ireland being very effective at slowing our ball. I would like to see the stats showing French rucks speed vs Ireland. For all the - deserved criticism - of Ntamack, a good attack starts with fast rucks.

I agree I think the Irish pack were slightly fitter and faster, particularly our backrow. You had us in the backs.

[Paddington Bear]

It felt very classic of Irish wins, you get to the end and struggle to remember an attack the opposition had. If you can’t get the ball in the opposition’s half, you’re very rarely going to win games of rugby

[Uncle fester]

France murdered us in the breakdown last year flooding the rucks with big men. Ireland were better prepared for it this time and had home advantage.
Probably a bit over-reliant on Dupont and Romain has been found out.

Swings and roundabouts. Talk of France peaking is a bit premature. They'll learn plenty from this game, just as we did last year.

[Duff Paddy]

The carry and pass from Doris to Ringrose for the final try - Jesus Christ that lad is on another level

[Uncle fester]

The carry and pass from Doris to Ringrose for the final try - Jesus Christ that lad is on another level

Yep. Even from far side of pitch, it was "how the hell did he do that?"

[redderneck]

The carry and pass from Doris to Ringrose for the final try - Jesus Christ that lad is on another level

Yup. Anyone else would have been doing well to have popped off a catchable offload to a close-in support runner. I had to be peeled down off the ceiling after seeing the Doris pass - I was near certain as Ringrose received it, that it was going to be a case of 'sensational pass, shame it'll come to nothing, deserved to be rewarded,' and then Ringrose goes and trumps it, the showboatin' git.

[TheFrog]

The carry and pass from Doris to Ringrose for the final try - Jesus Christ that lad is on another level

That.

And the superb move to send Keenan through a gap for the first try.

Outsranding rugby.

[PornDog]

Obvious from that. A poor decision but perhaps poor direction from the TV.

For those swearing blind that Penaud tackled Lowe in the air, sorry but Penaud's contact with Lowe was in fact BEFORE Lowe left the ground.

Although Penaud's wrap seems to be between Lowe's stomach and his balls, it also seems a reasonable attempt to wrap and short of "no arms" - how many tackles are a perfect wrap?



If this link doesn't work, see link further above and go 9 replies down to Andrew, look at the one reply and then under "more replies" for a clear pic)

It’s a wrap in so much as yes his arms are still attached to his torso but it was a clear body check and there was so attempt to wrap arms around the player

In fairness to Penaud, this is not a normal tackle situation, with Lowe actively diving for the line. Penaud is attempting to get his arms under Lowe in order to better effect a tackle in this situation. I still think his arms are playing a major factor in the tackle attempt, I don't think he is leading with and making contact with a hard shoulder. For me, his attempt is good, or at least good enough.