The Official English Rugby Thread

[Ovals]

More a feelinng of relief, rather than elation at getting the win.

Overall it was much better than last week. Line Out was excellent and the mauling was very effective - two huge parts of a successful team.

Willis was immense, and Lawrence was just what the Doctor ordered.

Dombrandt had a really good game, carried well and managed to hold on to the ball this week. With Ludlam and Willis, it's a terrific Backrow.

Chessum improved on his decent showing last week and Itoje looked more like his old self.

Defence was streets better and we were winning the collisions, often forcing their attacks a long way back.


Still kicked far too much good ball away in their 22 - we were literally screaming at the TV in frustration - The Italians probably couldn't believe their luck to keep getting the ball back without a fight. Not only were we missing potential try scoring opportunites, we only had to keep the phases going and Italy were giving up penalties.

With all the 'go forward' ball we never seemed to unleash the backs and left our wings feeding off scraps.

We looked a different, far worse, side as we unloaded the bench - the replacemnt forwards just aren't cutting it. Cole may shore up the scrum but both he and Mako are too slow now - Isiekwe is meh.

Mitchell looked sharp and Arundell popped up in the right place to grab his try.


All in all - a much better platform for the coaches to work with and for them to be more ambitious in the future. The jury is still out on Farrell !!

[iarmhí]

I didn't think the performance was that amazing . They did what they had to do with the opposition that was in front of them.

I think the championship decider could be in Dublin last weekend.

England are going to push on now and improve every game.

[petej]

It was absolutely infuriating watching it.

Time after time with stupid, low percentage kicking options in their half off decent ball.

The frustrating thing is we will never see Lawrence or Kelly at 12 with Smith or Ford. At which point stick with Farrell at 10 and accept he is a coaches dream because he sticks to the plan regardless of situation. Making Farrell captain is a big mistake. The kicks are good when you have an advantage or off poor ball. The inability to get our back three players involved was depressing.

For Smith it is a bit sad. Trying too hard. If post world cup Farrell continues he should go to France for a couple years.

[Paddington Bear]

It was absolutely infuriating watching it.

Time after time with stupid, low percentage kicking options in their half off decent ball.

The frustrating thing is we will never see Lawrence or Kelly at 12 with Smith or Ford. At which point stick with Farrell at 10 and accept he is a coaches dream because he sticks to the plan regardless of situation. Making Farrell captain is a big mistake. The kicks are good when you have an advantage or off poor ball. The inability to get our back three players involved was depressing.

For Smith it is a bit sad. Trying too hard. If post world cup Farrell continues he should go to France for a couple years.

The grubber works as one of:
- pure opportunism. 15/sweeper not there/mismatched forwards in defence
- keeping a defence ‘honest’ who are pushing 15 up into the line
- the killer blow after a number of phases

We achieved keeping them honest very early but then just persisted with something that we didn’t collect once. Hopefully it goes back in the locker

[Sinkers]

I was quite optimistic last weekend - at least we seemed to want to play a bit even if there was loads to work on

Please don’t tell me we’ve already gone back to a time where I wake up in the morning, check a few comments around the web and then decide I can’t be arsed to watch the game because it will be a cancerous bore fest of anti-rugby??

[Ovals]

I was quite optimistic last weekend - at least we seemed to want to play a bit even if there was loads to work on

Please don’t tell me we’ve already gone back to a time where I wake up in the morning, check a few comments around the web and then decide I can’t be arsed to watch the game because it will be a cancerous bore fest of anti-rugby??

I think you're expecting too much too soon. Without a forwards platform, a decent set piece, maul and defence, there's no platform for the coaches to build on. The kicking in there 22 was incredibly frustrating - but at least they now have something to work with. I'd be disappointed if that was the limit of their expectations but this was yet another new backline combo that they'd had just a week to work with.

[Sinkers]

It was playing with positive intent, as it were, that I was hoping for and reasonably pleased to see last week after Eddie’s recent load of bollox. But then again understand the need for pragmatism and a win.

Haven’t even had the chance to watch the match what with it being on a Sunday night here, but I’ll have a watch this evening

[tc27]

Not trying to cope about the lack of attacking threat (and I need to watch again) but my impression was their was no real attacking pattern - no two lines of runners or multiple attacking pods set across the field. Lots of hard lines off Farrell which did sort of work.

[sockwithaticket]

I was quite optimistic last weekend - at least we seemed to want to play a bit even if there was loads to work on

Please don’t tell me we’ve already gone back to a time where I wake up in the morning, check a few comments around the web and then decide I can’t be arsed to watch the game because it will be a cancerous bore fest of anti-rugby??

I think you're expecting too much too soon. Without a forwards platform, a decent set piece, maul and defence, there's no platform for the coaches to build on. The kicking in there 22 was incredibly frustrating - but at least they now have something to work with. I'd be disappointed if that was the limit of their expectations but this was yet another new backline combo that they'd had just a week to work with.

If the Baabaas can manage to string phases together without kicking it away inside the 22 after spending a week together mostly on the piss, I feel like we should be able to do the something similar even if the absolute basics are the primary coaching focus. A group of pro players being able to hold onto the ball and patiently try to explore any potenital gaps shouldn't fall under 'expecting too much'

[Paddington Bear]

Two weeks running the opposition have scored a try where there's been a hint (nothing more) of obstruction. Why aren't we smarter? Faz should have hit the deck like a sniper had got him and Cole and another (forget who) could have milked what happened yesterday given how soft the obstruction by Lawrence had been in the first half. Strikes me both France and Ireland would have at least forced the ref into a series of replays, we just meekly get on with it.

[Sandstorm]

A group of pro players being able to hold onto the ball and patiently try to explore any potential gaps shouldn't fall under 'expecting too much'

No time for that, they have to kick!!!

[JM2K6]

Two weeks running the opposition have scored a try where there's been a hint (nothing more) of obstruction. Why aren't we smarter? Faz should have hit the deck like a sniper had got him and Cole and another (forget who) could have milked what happened yesterday given how soft the obstruction by Lawrence had been in the first half. Strikes me both France and Ireland would have at least forced the ref into a series of replays, we just meekly get on with it.

Cole did pressure the ref and the TMO decided it was fine.

[inactionman]

Two weeks running the opposition have scored a try where there's been a hint (nothing more) of obstruction. Why aren't we smarter? Faz should have hit the deck like a sniper had got him and Cole and another (forget who) could have milked what happened yesterday given how soft the obstruction by Lawrence had been in the first half. Strikes me both France and Ireland would have at least forced the ref into a series of replays, we just meekly get on with it.

I take the point that it's doing as we're done to*, and it is the way professional sport is, but I'd rather we didn't turn into a team of Bergkamps.

Easiest way, of course, is for Refs to only call the obvious, egregious and impactful, and to make a point of not rewarding the Liam Williams of this world.


* I should caveat this by saying I don't think the Italian lad dived in the coming-together with Lawrence.

[JM2K6]

I was fine with the Lawrence call - unintentional or otherwise, he was in the defensive line and created the gap by tripping a defender. No malice attached, but it would be faintly ludicrous to allow for tries created like that to stand if seen by the TMO.

[Raggs]

Lawes and T Curry apparently going to be fit for Wales... going to make it interesting in terms of selection.

[SaintK]

Lawes and T Curry apparently going to be fit for Wales... going to make it interesting in terms of selection.

I wouldn’t add either of them to the squad until they’ve played a couple of Premier matches

[Ovals]

Lawes and T Curry apparently going to be fit for Wales... going to make it interesting in terms of selection.

I wouldn’t add either of them to the squad until they’ve played a couple of Premier matches

Lawes would be a far better bench option than Isielwe !!

[sockwithaticket]

Lawes and T Curry apparently going to be fit for Wales... going to make it interesting in terms of selection.

I wouldn’t add either of them to the squad until they’ve played a couple of Premier matches

Definitely. Lawes has barely played this season, I don't really see that it'd be in his interest to rush him back for a big test. Let him find his feet with Saints again and hopefully he can stay fit for the World Cup. Curry's been off his best for a while. Don't see that there's a need to have him involved in the tournament at all, not while Willis and Earl are going well.

[Benny The Ball]

Lawes and T Curry apparently going to be fit for Wales... going to make it interesting in terms of selection.

I wouldn’t add either of them to the squad until they’ve played a couple of Premier matches

Definitely. Lawes has barely played this season, I don't really see that it'd be in his interest to rush him back for a big test. Let him find his feet with Saints again and hopefully he can stay fit for the World Cup. Curry's been off his best for a while. Don't see that there's a need to have him involved in the tournament at all, not while Willis and Earl are going well.

Possibly have Curry on the bench as an option to replace Dombrandt (who’s not shone ) ?

[Joost]

While I’m quite positive about the new regime and what it could do over time, it’s a painful realisation that kicking away front-foot ball has survived the disposal of the old coaching regime and Ben Youngs.

I can only think of two games where it’s actually worked well; Ireland in Dublin (when they had Henshaw and Stockdale in the back 3) and France at Twickenham the following week (Huget! ) - it’s never worked where the opposition has a competent back 3 who can tidy up and counter or return the ball with interest.

[sockwithaticket]

I wouldn’t add either of them to the squad until they’ve played a couple of Premier matches

Definitely. Lawes has barely played this season, I don't really see that it'd be in his interest to rush him back for a big test. Let him find his feet with Saints again and hopefully he can stay fit for the World Cup. Curry's been off his best for a while. Don't see that there's a need to have him involved in the tournament at all, not while Willis and Earl are going well.

Possibly have Curry on the bench as an option to replace Dombrandt (who’s not shone ) ?

I'd persist with Dombrandt. He was good last game and I think it would behoove us to allow him to actually have a run in the shirt. I'm not sure he's ever lined up with the same back row combo for successive tests and his own past caps have been intermittent. With our dearth of specialist 8s he's shown enough to be persisted with. Especially if the alternative means changing the back row again.

With that in mind, I don't see Curry as enough of an impact sub to displace Earl.

[sockwithaticket]

While I’m quite positive about the new regime and what it could do over time, it’s a painful realisation that kicking away front-foot ball has survived the disposal of the old coaching regime and Ben Youngs.

I can only think of two games where it’s actually worked well; Ireland in Dublin (when they had Henshaw and Stockdale in the back 3) and France at Twickenham the following week (Huget! ) - it’s never worked where the opposition has a competent back 3 who can tidy up and counter or return the ball with interest.

And only for a half. We didn't do much in the second 40 because France got their defensive cover together even with Huget at fullback.

There was that shit game against Wales in 2018 where we scored two tries very early on from kick throughs and held on to win. IMore notably it gave us that Underhill wonder tackle on Scott Williams.

[Benny The Ball]

Definitely. Lawes has barely played this season, I don't really see that it'd be in his interest to rush him back for a big test. Let him find his feet with Saints again and hopefully he can stay fit for the World Cup. Curry's been off his best for a while. Don't see that there's a need to have him involved in the tournament at all, not while Willis and Earl are going well.

Possibly have Curry on the bench as an option to replace Dombrandt (who’s not shone ) ?

I'd persist with Dombrandt. He was good last game and I think it would behoove us to allow him to actually have a run in the shirt. I'm not sure he's ever lined up with the same back row combo for successive tests and his own past caps have been intermittent. With our dearth of specialist 8s he's shown enough to be persisted with. Especially if the alternative means changing the back row again.

With that in mind, I don't see Curry as enough of an impact sub to displace Earl.

Would be great to have some stability, and the back row with Ludlum, Dombrandt, and Willis certainly has a nice balance; I’m just struggling to let go of Dombrandt’s shocker against Scotland. Hopefully the next few games he can improve further ( seems to me he needs a bit more composure )

[RodneyRegis]

I was quite optimistic last weekend - at least we seemed to want to play a bit even if there was loads to work on

Please don’t tell me we’ve already gone back to a time where I wake up in the morning, check a few comments around the web and then decide I can’t be arsed to watch the game because it will be a cancerous bore fest of anti-rugby??

I think you're expecting too much too soon. Without a forwards platform, a decent set piece, maul and defence, there's no platform for the coaches to build on. The kicking in there 22 was incredibly frustrating - but at least they now have something to work with. I'd be disappointed if that was the limit of their expectations but this was yet another new backline combo that they'd had just a week to work with.

If the Baabaas can manage to string phases together without kicking it away inside the 22 after spending a week together mostly on the piss, I feel like we should be able to do the something similar even if the absolute basics are the primary coaching focus. A group of pro players being able to hold onto the ball and patiently try to explore any potenital gaps shouldn't fall under 'expecting too much'

Come on. Most of these guys have never played rugby before toany real standard, and Borthwick is about as different a coach to Eddie as he could possibly be. I mean they might as well be playing a different sport. They need at least a year together to be able to string passes from 9 to 10, 10 to 12, 12 to 13 and out to the wing. I was really encouraged by Slade's 4 metres and ohc getting the ball twice, impressive stuff. How can Owen be expected to realise you don't kick away a 3 man overlap until we have total domination at the lineout?

[Dragster]

Lawes and T Curry apparently going to be fit for Wales... going to make it interesting in terms of selection.

I wouldn’t add either of them to the squad until they’ve played a couple of Premier matches

Lawes would be a far better bench option than Isielwe !!

So would I tbf.

I don’t see how you drop Ludlum or Willis.

[JM2K6]

Possibly have Curry on the bench as an option to replace Dombrandt (who’s not shone ) ?

I'd persist with Dombrandt. He was good last game and I think it would behoove us to allow him to actually have a run in the shirt. I'm not sure he's ever lined up with the same back row combo for successive tests and his own past caps have been intermittent. With our dearth of specialist 8s he's shown enough to be persisted with. Especially if the alternative means changing the back row again.

With that in mind, I don't see Curry as enough of an impact sub to displace Earl.

Would be great to have some stability, and the back row with Ludlum, Dombrandt, and Willis certainly has a nice balance; I’m just struggling to let go of Dombrandt’s shocker against Scotland. Hopefully the next few games he can improve further ( seems to me he needs a bit more composure )

I don't think it's a good idea to drop someone for handling errors when they did plenty of good work outside that, especially not if they've then followed up with a game full of hard carries and busts through the forwards.

Unless you wanted to ensure the players remain terrified of doing anything wrong ever, I guess. Hi Eddie, nice to have you here.

[Paddington Bear]

I don't think there's much evidence that Dombrandt keeps cocking up restarts for Quins. If he does it again in Cardiff we're having a different conversation, but as frustrating as it is I don't see it as a reason to tinker with the side.

[pjm1]

The SB post match presser is interesting and worth a listen to on YT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wymj0OdpQ1g

He's clearly not enamoured with the performance - he acknowledges the win but highlights how much is still to be done ("small steps forward"). To be fair, this recognition is a step on from Eddie who would say stupid shit just to deflect. Bizarrely, I'm sure I remember SB did at some point talk about the players sticking in there and showing perseverance although clearly not enough to let the lead slip against Scotland and, frankly, drop off as they did in the 2nd half vs Italy (who, to be fair also stepped up a much needed gear). It can't have been this press conference - maybe it was the pre-match conference?

I suspect we all can, however, sympathise with the predicament he's accepted: he has a dysfunctional team (more a collection of historically poorly-selected individuals), some collateral damage to less favoured players from Eddie's "man management" and a team that has been shorn of its fundamental strengths. There's a lot of rebuilding of the basics before the team can start to add anything like polish or panache.

He also talks about playing each game as they come, on its own merits. Whilst that is fine as far as getting wins is concerned, it conflicts with the desire (and need) to build a cohesive team with a plan on how it wants to play. I'm not sure I believe him when he says he's focusing on the former rather than the latter... surely it must be a blend of the two? Fine to pick different tactics for each game, as long as it's being pulled from an armoury that has already been built - I'm concerned we don't have enough time to build that in time for the RWC.

[Benny The Ball]

I'd persist with Dombrandt. He was good last game and I think it would behoove us to allow him to actually have a run in the shirt. I'm not sure he's ever lined up with the same back row combo for successive tests and his own past caps have been intermittent. With our dearth of specialist 8s he's shown enough to be persisted with. Especially if the alternative means changing the back row again.

With that in mind, I don't see Curry as enough of an impact sub to displace Earl.

Would be great to have some stability, and the back row with Ludlum, Dombrandt, and Willis certainly has a nice balance; I’m just struggling to let go of Dombrandt’s shocker against Scotland. Hopefully the next few games he can improve further ( seems to me he needs a bit more composure )

I don't think it's a good idea to drop someone for handling errors when they did plenty of good work outside that, especially not if they've then followed up with a game full of hard carries and busts through the forwards.

Unless you wanted to ensure the players remain terrified of doing anything wrong ever, I guess. Hi Eddie, nice to have you here.

Thanks maaate.

It was the pat on the back of VDM that was most concerning.

We’re short of options anyway so let’s hope for some steady progress

[Hal Jordan]

I don't think there's much evidence that Dombrandt keeps cocking up restarts for Quins. If he does it again in Cardiff we're having a different conversation, but as frustrating as it is I don't see it as a reason to tinker with the side.

He didn't drop any against Italy and he was fielding most of them.

He made an absolute balls of one catch against Scotland giving them great field position, but he's not exactly doing a Balshaw.

[inactionman]

I'd persist with Dombrandt. He was good last game and I think it would behoove us to allow him to actually have a run in the shirt. I'm not sure he's ever lined up with the same back row combo for successive tests and his own past caps have been intermittent. With our dearth of specialist 8s he's shown enough to be persisted with. Especially if the alternative means changing the back row again.

With that in mind, I don't see Curry as enough of an impact sub to displace Earl.

Would be great to have some stability, and the back row with Ludlum, Dombrandt, and Willis certainly has a nice balance; I’m just struggling to let go of Dombrandt’s shocker against Scotland. Hopefully the next few games he can improve further ( seems to me he needs a bit more composure )

I don't think it's a good idea to drop someone for handling errors when they did plenty of good work outside that, especially not if they've then followed up with a game full of hard carries and busts through the forwards.

Unless you wanted to ensure the players remain terrified of doing anything wrong ever, I guess. Hi Eddie, nice to have you here.

The only really egregious drop I recall was the restart (and even then it looked like he wasn't expecting it to get through to him), the others were knock-ons trying to take a tip pass or attacking the line - which I think he should be warmly encouraged to keep trying.

[Ovals]

The SB post match presser is interesting and worth a listen to on YT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wymj0OdpQ1g

He's clearly not enamoured with the performance - he acknowledges the win but highlights how much is still to be done ("small steps forward"). To be fair, this recognition is a step on from Eddie who would say stupid shit just to deflect. Bizarrely, I'm sure I remember SB did at some point talk about the players sticking in there and showing perseverance although clearly not enough to let the lead slip against Scotland and, frankly, drop off as they did in the 2nd half vs Italy (who, to be fair also stepped up a much needed gear). It can't have been this press conference - maybe it was the pre-match conference?

I suspect we all can, however, sympathise with the predicament he's accepted: he has a dysfunctional team (more a collection of historically poorly-selected individuals), some collateral damage to less favoured players from Eddie's "man management" and a team that has been shorn of its fundamental strengths. There's a lot of rebuilding of the basics before the team can start to add anything like polish or panache.

He also talks about playing each game as they come, on its own merits. Whilst that is fine as far as getting wins is concerned, it conflicts with the desire (and need) to build a cohesive team with a plan on how it wants to play. I'm not sure I believe him when he says he's focusing on the former rather than the latter... surely it must be a blend of the two? Fine to pick different tactics for each game, as long as it's being pulled from an armoury that has already been built - I'm concerned we don't have enough time to build that in time for the RWC.

I think the most important thing against Italy was to get the win. A loss would have been really crippling. And it was a small step forwards - we did most of the basics a bit better - set pieces looked better and we were winning the collisions and getting front foot ball. Next step is to make more use of such ball.

Whilst the defense, particularly line speed, looked much better, we're still missing too many tackles. There's still loads of areas we need to improve on. Maybe playing the same XV again might help us improve the cohesion - so I hope they don't tinker with selections too much.

[pjm1]

I think the most important thing against Italy was to get the win. A loss would have been really crippling. And it was a small step forwards - we did most of the basics a bit better - set pieces looked better and we were winning the collisions and getting front foot ball. Next step is to make more use of such ball.

Whilst the defense, particularly line speed, looked much better, we're still missing too many tackles. There's still loads of areas we need to improve on. Maybe playing the same XV again might help us improve the cohesion - so I hope they don't tinker with selections too much.

Agreed on all points. Potential bananaskin avoided, plenty of things to work on. It's a step forward and with Wales up next in a fortnight, a reasonable platform to launch the further needed improvements from.

[SaintK]

Traing squad for Wales. Mako still stinking up the LHP position, Stuart in as Sinkler injured. At least Youngs is nowhere near the squad

Forwards: Ollie Chessum, Dan Cole, Ben Curry, Alex Dombrandt, Ben Earl, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Nick Isiekwe, Maro Itoje, Lewis Ludlam, Will Stuart, Mako Vunipola, Jack Walker, Jack Willis.

Backs: Henry Arundell, Owen Farrell, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ollie Lawrence, Max Malins, Joe Marchant, Alex Mitchell, Henry Slade, Marcus Smith, Freddie Steward, Jack van Poortvliet, Anthony Watson.

[sockwithaticket]

I thought Stuart was injured, has he just come back or something?

[Brazil]

Traing squad for Wales. Mako still stinking up the LHP position, Stuart in as Sinkler injured. At least Youngs is nowhere near the squad

Forwards: Ollie Chessum, Dan Cole, Ben Curry, Alex Dombrandt, Ben Earl, Ellis Genge, Jamie George, Nick Isiekwe, Maro Itoje, Lewis Ludlam, Will Stuart, Mako Vunipola, Jack Walker, Jack Willis.

Backs: Henry Arundell, Owen Farrell, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Ollie Lawrence, Max Malins, Joe Marchant, Alex Mitchell, Henry Slade, Marcus Smith, Freddie Steward, Jack van Poortvliet, Anthony Watson.

Seriously, what does Bevan Rodd have to do?!

[inactionman]

I thought Stuart was injured, has he just come back or something?

The injury looked pretty nasty (dislocated elbow in Nov against the saffas) so thought he might have been away a bit longer. He's not played for Bath in that time, suppose he's lucky there's the extra week off.

[Dragster]

A win was important, but Italy looked knackered first half from the France game and won the second half when they woke up I think?. We were very lucky with some of the scrum penalties as well.

Mako? I think Rapava Ruskin is in when the EPS changes are next allowed I’m sure.

[Ovals]

A win was important, but Italy looked knackered first half from the France game and won the second half when they woke up I think?. We were very lucky with some of the scrum penalties as well.

Mako? I think Rapava Ruskin is in when the EPS changes are next allowed I’m sure.

So, Italy were knackered in the 1st half but, having played another 40 mins, they weren't knackered in the 2nd half. Right.........

[pjm1]

A win was important, but Italy looked knackered first half from the France game and won the second half when they woke up I think?. We were very lucky with some of the scrum penalties as well.

Mako? I think Rapava Ruskin is in when the EPS changes are next allowed I’m sure.

I don't think knackered in the physical sense?

It is more like our game vs NZ in the semi was our "final" and mentally, we didn't have much left in the tank for SA. Italy similarly, but after a coruscating half time talk, suspect they managed to get back in the zone mentally (as well as some smarter tactics) for the 2H.