The Official English Rugby Thread

[JM2K6]

Yes, I will mock Borthwick as long as I like but I did actually say this was exactly what was likely to happen as soon as it became obvious that Borthwick wanted to play the Eddie Jones 2016+ gameplan and was wedded to Farrell in the side. Ford at his best is the best in the world at that particular approach (more's the pity, it means we never get to see what else he can do - he's a fabulous player).

It's a shame that a generation of incredible attacking talent is going to be chasing kicks all day long but hey, I'm not paying for tickets and it doesn't matter to anyone if I give a shit about England or not.

In other excellent news for Quins:

[inactionman]

It makes sense, Ford is a much better fit for what Borthwick is trying to achieve than Smith.

Like many on here, I was never happy that Ford was dropped so pleased to see him back in the mix - but, equally, not thrilled if he's reinstated in place of Smith.

One thing I've not seen much of from mid-career Ford is much of a running game - although not the key part of his game he was able to do this at Bath, but not seen it for a good while, wondering if injuries are hampering a bit? He certainly made a fair few breaks at Bath, but to be honest that might have been more a directive from Mike Ford.

[SaintK]

Not entirely surprising, but the word is that Smith being sent back to Quins for the weekend, with Ford being retained in his place.

Hmmm! I've never been on the Smith bandwagon but I'm not sure replacing him with someone who has had about 100 minutes of competetive rugby since the last Premiership final is the best thing to do?

[JM2K6]

Not entirely surprising, but the word is that Smith being sent back to Quins for the weekend, with Ford being retained in his place.

Hmmm! I've never been on the Smith bandwagon but I'm not sure replacing him with someone who has had about 100 minutes of competetive rugby since the last Premiership final is the best thing to do?

Look he was good under Eddie Jones, he clearly is able to execute the boot-the-ball-in-the-air tactic, and he's intrinsically linked with Tigers. Borthwick would have to be tortured to within an inch of his life to not call him up as soon as he was vaguely match fit.

Ford should be starting under this gameplan. I would love to see Ford given license to play his what-used-to-be-natural game a bit more with this team around him, but that would require Farrell on the bench, so...

[sockwithaticket]

It makes sense, Ford is a much better fit for what Borthwick is trying to achieve than Smith.

Like many on here, I was never happy that Ford was dropped so pleased to see him back in the mix - but, equally, not thrilled if he's reinstated in place of Smith.

One thing I've not seen much of from mid-career Ford is much of a running game - although not the key part of his game he was able to do this at Bath, but not seen it for a good while, wondering if injuries are hampering a bit? He certainly made a fair few breaks at Bath, but to be honest that might have been more a directive from Mike Ford.

At least there's a chance of Borthers actually using Ford. 20 seconds off the bench for Smith last week was a depressing look at how little the current regime want to do with a player like that and the type of game that will suit him.

Every now and then Ford would show glimpses of his running game for Tigers and each time you'd just sit there thinking 'why don't we see more of that?'.

[Paddington Bear]

Ford is the best placed of the three to execute a gameplan that involves the type of tactical kicking they are looking to use combined with the ability to cut teams apart off set piece ball and take split second decisions on whether to run or kick within this plan.
Faz works much better in a highly structured system like what he's been executing very effectively for Sarries, and Smith works much better in a more dynamic system like he runs at Quins. The wrinkle is at the moment Smith is by a street the best goal kicker.

Tbh, whichever of the three is picked I don't like bringing a 10 off the bench. For me, you pick your man and let them run the game.

[Margin__Walker]

Malins injured. Johnny May back in (over Murley it seems)

[sockwithaticket]

Malins injured. Johnny May back in (over Murley it seems)

If it's just to hold tackle bags and fill a bib for training, fine. Having watched Glaws at the weekend, he's lucky to even get that sort of role in the squad.

[Margin__Walker]

Just noticed Watson's also not there.

Hopefully just to get some game time, because if we're talking about experienced wings, he's looking much sharper than May

[Paddington Bear]

Watson's there at the bottom below JVP

[inactionman]

Just noticed Watson's also not there.

Hopefully just to get some game time, because if we're talking about experienced wings, he's looking much sharper than May

Unless my eyes are wonky, he is in?

He's pretty much my first choice at the moment.

[Paddington Bear]

I hadn't clocked Quins were playing at HQ this weekend, I'd say this squad reflects giving Quins back two of their more blockbuster players. With the injury list at hooker you can't send Walker back.

[Ovals]

Malins injured. Johnny May back in (over Murley it seems)

If it's just to hold tackle bags and fill a bib for training, fine. Having watched Glaws at the weekend, he's lucky to even get that sort of role in the squad.

Gloucester (May) has no game this weekend - guys like Murley, Smith et al, need some much needed game time. And, since I;m going to the Big Game, I;m delighted that Smith has been released to play !!

[assfly]

At least Quins might win something with Smith back.

[Margin__Walker]

Watson's there at the bottom below JVP

So he is...

Ignore that

[Brazil]

Not entirely surprising, but the word is that Smith being sent back to Quins for the weekend, with Ford being retained in his place.

Hmmm! I've never been on the Smith bandwagon but I'm not sure replacing him with someone who has had about 100 minutes of competetive rugby since the last Premiership final is the best thing to do?

Look he was good under Eddie Jones, he clearly is able to execute the boot-the-ball-in-the-air tactic, and he's intrinsically linked with Tigers. Borthwick would have to be tortured to within an inch of his life to not call him up as soon as he was vaguely match fit.

Ford should be starting under this gameplan. I would love to see Ford given license to play his what-used-to-be-natural game a bit more with this team around him, but that would require Farrell on the bench, so...

Ford makes sense, but I'd hoped he'd get the chance to get up to speed with us rather than being rushed back into England. Truth be told he wasn't brilliant at the weekend for Sale and clearly needs time to get back to his best. Borthwick's backed himself into a corner on this for me. Farrell has been poor all 6N, but is evidently undroppable. Given Borthwick clearly doesn't rate Smith, the options are invariably going to be Farrell to 10 if Ford gets injured. Only if both of them get injured will our most mercurial talent get his shout, and then it will be to service a gameplan that doesn't fit his natural game - as we saw with the kicking game that Jones forced on him. I can't remember being less enthused by a coaching group this early into their tenure, it screams mediocrity and the shackling of our best natural talent to meet the needs of a coaching theory (kick kick kick kick kicky kicky kick kick=winning).

[el capitan]

Ford has always copped it from the casuals for not being eye-catchingly obvious - either in an all action Farrell/Wilko way, or as an attacking flair 10 like Smith/Cipriani - but he's clearly our best option at 10. Much more cerebral, flexible to the gameplan and can play what is in front of him, better at managing proceedings and play over many phases, knows what Borthwick wants (and time is of the essence with this Autumn looming), and knows how to co-exist in a Farrell-dominated universe. All being well he should be at 10 for the world cup.

However..... He's been out for the best part of the year with a very nasty injury, is he the player he was previously? And in any case he's had virtually zero pitch time to shake off any rust. Launching him at the deep end against the French and Irish would obviously be a big call to make, and a big ask for the player himself.

As for where Smith fits into the equation, the way I see it (and how I think Coaches do also) you're always going to be reluctant about having two guys who can only play at 10 in your matchday 23. Think it will always be either/or, and why Faz (amongst many other reasons) will always be found a place.

[dpedin]

Ford has always copped it from the casuals for not being eye-catchingly obvious - either in an all action Farrell/Wilko way, or as an attacking flair 10 like Smith/Cipriani - but he's clearly our best option at 10. Much more cerebral, flexible to the gameplan and can play what is in front of him, better at managing proceedings and play over many phases, knows what Borthwick wants (and time is of the essence with this Autumn looming), and knows how to co-exist in a Farrell-dominated universe. All being well he should be at 10 for the world cup.

However..... He's been out for the best part of the year with a very nasty injury, is he the player he was previously? And in any case he's had virtually zero pitch time to shake off any rust. Launching him at the deep end against the French and Irish would obviously be a big call to make, and a big ask for the player himself.

As for where Smith fits into the equation, the way I see it (and how I think Coaches do also) you're always going to be reluctant about having two guys who can only play at 10 in your matchday 23. Think it will always be either/or, and why Faz (amongst many other reasons) will always be found a place.

Smith sent back to Quins to get game time at the weekend, Ford played at weekend. Seems sensible to make sure everyone has some game time under their belt. I wouldn't read too much into this. Ford is however a better option than Farrell who seemed to play himself out of selection after the weekend?

[Ovals]

Ford has always copped it from the casuals for not being eye-catchingly obvious - either in an all action Farrell/Wilko way, or as an attacking flair 10 like Smith/Cipriani - but he's clearly our best option at 10. Much more cerebral, flexible to the gameplan and can play what is in front of him, better at managing proceedings and play over many phases, knows what Borthwick wants (and time is of the essence with this Autumn looming), and knows how to co-exist in a Farrell-dominated universe. All being well he should be at 10 for the world cup.

However..... He's been out for the best part of the year with a very nasty injury, is he the player he was previously? And in any case he's had virtually zero pitch time to shake off any rust. Launching him at the deep end against the French and Irish would obviously be a big call to make, and a big ask for the player himself.

As for where Smith fits into the equation, the way I see it (and how I think Coaches do also) you're always going to be reluctant about having two guys who can only play at 10 in your matchday 23. Think it will always be either/or, and why Faz (amongst many other reasons) will always be found a place.

Smith sent back to Quins to get game time at the weekend, Ford played at weekend. Seems sensible to make sure everyone has some game time under their belt. I wouldn't read too much into this. Ford is however a better option than Farrell who seemed to play himself out of selection after the weekend?

There is absolutely no way, barring injury, that Farrell will not be selected against France. The only option, God forbid, is that they will consider is moving him to 12 with Ford at 10 and Lawrence at 13.

Despite my misgivings of Farrells performance, and that of Slade, I hope they stick with the 9/10/12/13 combo. We can't keep changing it and expect them to become more fluent. Unless Farrell's poor goal kicking is due to an injury, and they want another goal kicker, I expect he'll start at 10.

[Kawazaki]

Farrell at 12 is not really a problem with Ford at 10. Lawrence would just run his unders lines nearer the defensive edge which is no bad thing actually.

[petej]

Farrell at 12 is not really a problem with Ford at 10. Lawrence would just run his unders lines nearer the defensive edge which is no bad thing actually.

Rather have Farrell at 10 than a non-runner at 12. Why shift a player playing well in the position we have had real problems in for ages?

[Ovals]

Farrell at 12 is not really a problem with Ford at 10. Lawrence would just run his unders lines nearer the defensive edge which is no bad thing actually.

Rather have Farrell at 10 than a non-runner at 12. Why shift a player playing well in the position we have had real problems in for ages?

Agreed - can't see what he really offers at 12, it's not his regular position and his lack of running threat makes defending against us, very predciatble and far easier.

But, if Borthers is is always going to play him for 80 mins, come what may, Ford is a better 10, to accompany him from the bench, than any other option.

For good or bad, I don't want them to drop Farrell - it's time to stick with a backline and give them a chance to really develop their understanding and implement the moves they've worked on in training. I think we've seen some progress there - so let's see how they get on against the big 2 teams.

[sockwithaticket]

Just saw that ex-Wasp Tim Cardall is with the Melbourne Reblels at the moment, but will be returning to the Prem next season with Newcastle.

[Ovals]

Just saw that ex-Wasp Tim Cardall is with the Melbourne Reblels at the moment, but will be returning to the Prem next season with Newcastle.

With the funds available to Premiership and Welsh regions, being drastically cut, Wasps should be able to put together a pretty good Championship side for next season, without breaking the bank. There should be quite a few decent players looking for work.

[sockwithaticket]

Just saw that ex-Wasp Tim Cardall is with the Melbourne Reblels at the moment, but will be returning to the Prem next season with Newcastle.

With the funds available to Premiership and Welsh regions, being drastically cut, Wasps should be able to put together a pretty good Championship side for next season, without breaking the bank. There should be quite a few decent players looking for work.

You'd like to think so. The Prem shed some 100 players even before the collapse or Worcester and Wasps, there have to be some guys desperate to get another shot.

I wonder when we should start hearing about a coaching team and playing squad?

[Torquemada 1420]

As for where Smith fits into the equation, the way I see it (and how I think Coaches do also) you're always going to be reluctant about having two guys who can only play at 10 in your matchday 23. Think it will always be either/or, and why Faz (amongst many other reasons) will always be found a place.

Interesting observation. France do precisely that though (if we count Ntamack being able to play anywhere at all) and more i.e. Dupont can play 10 as can Ramos....... and both have been demonstrably better at it than Ntamack. So, if any side were going to go for only 1 specialist FH backed up with a polyvalent (which was the love of Fre coaches for 2 decades), then it would be France.

So, I am not buying this. FH is such a critical position, you'd absolutely want your best 2 options in your match squad.

[el capitan]

As for where Smith fits into the equation, the way I see it (and how I think Coaches do also) you're always going to be reluctant about having two guys who can only play at 10 in your matchday 23. Think it will always be either/or, and why Faz (amongst many other reasons) will always be found a place.

Interesting observation. France do precisely that though (if we count Ntamack being able to play anywhere at all) and more i.e. Dupont can play 10 as can Ramos....... and both have been demonstrably better at it than Ntamack. So, if any side were going to go for only 1 specialist FH backed up with a polyvalent (which was the love of Fre coaches for 2 decades), then it would be France.

So, I am not buying this. FH is such a critical position, you'd absolutely want your best 2 options in your match squad.

Ntamack and Jalibert both play/cover Centre though if needed?

I might be wrong, and I'll concede that Ireland at present look like they're doing precisely this (though I'm not sure R Byrne is their set in stone backup option), but my instinct is that it's unusual for an international team to run with two pure 10's, and small ones at that, in the Matchday 23.

[JM2K6]

Don't Ireland use 2 10s? The Kiwis think Beauden can play fullback and who am I to argue.

[Paddington Bear]

“I said to Marcus: ‘the best thing for you to do is to play the game this weekend and go and play really well for your club in a big game,” said Borthwick. “He has had limited game time the last two or three weeks.

“Marcus will be back in the squad on Sunday, he understands that. The thing I want him to have is that match sharpness. That is really important for him. A message I say regularly to the players is that they have great strengths. Marcus is a brilliant player, he can open up defences and I would love to see him open up the defence, put people through space, find space himself. He has great tactical awareness and a multitude of kicking skills. He can create space and attack space.”

[inactionman]

As for where Smith fits into the equation, the way I see it (and how I think Coaches do also) you're always going to be reluctant about having two guys who can only play at 10 in your matchday 23. Think it will always be either/or, and why Faz (amongst many other reasons) will always be found a place.

Interesting observation. France do precisely that though (if we count Ntamack being able to play anywhere at all) and more i.e. Dupont can play 10 as can Ramos....... and both have been demonstrably better at it than Ntamack. So, if any side were going to go for only 1 specialist FH backed up with a polyvalent (which was the love of Fre coaches for 2 decades), then it would be France.

So, I am not buying this. FH is such a critical position, you'd absolutely want your best 2 options in your match squad.

Ntamack and Jalibert both play/cover Centre though if needed?

I might be wrong, and I'll concede that Ireland at present look like they're doing precisely this (though I'm not sure R Byrne is their set in stone backup option), but my instinct is that it's unusual for an international team to run with two pure 10's, and small ones at that, in the Matchday 23.

A replacement 9, sure, but rare to see dedicated 10s on the bench unless the starting ten can cover elsewhere. Even with 5 and 3 split, it only leaves one extra back replacement to cover 11-15.

[JM2K6]

“I said to Marcus: ‘the best thing for you to do is to play the game this weekend and go and play really well for your club in a big game,” said Borthwick. “He has had limited game time the last two or three weeks.

“Marcus will be back in the squad on Sunday, he understands that. The thing I want him to have is that match sharpness. That is really important for him. A message I say regularly to the players is that they have great strengths. Marcus is a brilliant player, he can open up defences and I would love to see him open up the defence, put people through space, find space himself. He has great tactical awareness and a multitude of kicking skills. He can create space and attack space.”

This has been misquoted in places as saying Smith will be back in the match squad or even starting - it's not that at all. He'll be in the training squad during the week. "Go away and prove to me you're worth your place in the match squad" isn't a vote of confidence.

Borthwick suggesting Smith's biggest problem is his lack of match sharpness is funny though...



(and that's before you consider Ford's lack of match sharpness as evident in his match and a half for Sale so far!)

[sockwithaticket]

“I said to Marcus: ‘the best thing for you to do is to play the game this weekend and go and play really well for your club in a big game,” said Borthwick. “He has had limited game time the last two or three weeks.

“Marcus will be back in the squad on Sunday, he understands that. The thing I want him to have is that match sharpness. That is really important for him. A message I say regularly to the players is that they have great strengths. Marcus is a brilliant player, he can open up defences and I would love to see him open up the defence, put people through space, find space himself. He has great tactical awareness and a multitude of kicking skills. He can create space and attack space.”

Who's holding you back from givig him the opportunity, Steve?

[inactionman]

“I said to Marcus: ‘the best thing for you to do is to play the game this weekend and go and play really well for your club in a big game,” said Borthwick. “He has had limited game time the last two or three weeks.

“Marcus will be back in the squad on Sunday, he understands that. The thing I want him to have is that match sharpness. That is really important for him. A message I say regularly to the players is that they have great strengths. Marcus is a brilliant player, he can open up defences and I would love to see him open up the defence, put people through space, find space himself. He has great tactical awareness and a multitude of kicking skills. He can create space and attack space.”

Who's holding you back from givig him the opportunity, Steve?

Is the answer 'Owen'?

[Paddington Bear]

Who's holding you back from givig him the opportunity, Steve?

Is the answer 'Owen'?

Well yeah, he can (should I suppose) only pick one fly half and the other will struggle for game time. Had he plumped the other way around there's a very good chance Faz would be playing in Manchester this weekend.

[sockwithaticket]

Who's holding you back from givig him the opportunity, Steve?

Is the answer 'Owen'?

Apparently. If any coach even thinks 'maybe we should try putting Owen on the bench' he can tell and fixes them with a stern look.

[Torquemada 1420]

As for where Smith fits into the equation, the way I see it (and how I think Coaches do also) you're always going to be reluctant about having two guys who can only play at 10 in your matchday 23. Think it will always be either/or, and why Faz (amongst many other reasons) will always be found a place.

Interesting observation. France do precisely that though (if we count Ntamack being able to play anywhere at all) and more i.e. Dupont can play 10 as can Ramos....... and both have been demonstrably better at it than Ntamack. So, if any side were going to go for only 1 specialist FH backed up with a polyvalent (which was the love of Fre coaches for 2 decades), then it would be France.

So, I am not buying this. FH is such a critical position, you'd absolutely want your best 2 options in your match squad.

Ntamack and Jalibert both play/cover Centre though if needed?

I might be wrong, and I'll concede that Ireland at present look like they're doing precisely this (though I'm not sure R Byrne is their set in stone backup option), but my instinct is that it's unusual for an international team to run with two pure 10's, and small ones at that, in the Matchday 23.

Jalibert has never played anywhere other than FH except when Galthie went retard against Ireland and put him at FB for the last few minutes. Yes, Ntamack has played 12: ironically with Ramos at FH because I suspect Mola wasn't convinced by his FH either!

You may be right more generally but it would need more time than I've got to investigate!

[JM2K6]

Who's holding you back from givig him the opportunity, Steve?

Is the answer 'Owen'?

Well yeah, he can (should I suppose) only pick one fly half and the other will struggle for game time. Had he plumped the other way around there's a very good chance Faz would be playing in Manchester this weekend.

Small point but I don't think he would be - I think Faz would be kept around for his leadership and standard setting in training, and for his mentoring of the younger players.


Said with a straight face, btw. I do think that's actually true and that it's a big part of what Junior brings that coaches love so much.

[Woddy]

Is the answer 'Owen'?

Well yeah, he can (should I suppose) only pick one fly half and the other will struggle for game time. Had he plumped the other way around there's a very good chance Faz would be playing in Manchester this weekend.

Small point but I don't think he would be - I think Faz would be kept around for his leadership and standard setting in training, and for his mentoring of the younger players.


Said with a straight face, btw. I do think that's actually true and that it's a big part of what Junior brings that coaches love so much.

Agreed. In fact, at times when his personal on-field performances are sub-standard, he should still be part of the group, a club-captain and drive standards in others at training and fire them up on the day. His vaunted intangibles of leadership and test-match presence could be exuded from the touch line or when he brings on water a la Erasmus. No need for him to actually play then.

[GogLais]

Jarrod Evans going to Harlequins according to Wales Online. Haven’t they got someone a bit like him already?

[sockwithaticket]

Jarrod Evans going to Harlequins according to Wales Online. Haven’t they got someone a bit like him already?

They've got Marcus Smith, Tommy Allan and Will Edwards, but Allan's off to France and Smith will be away with England for a good chunk of next season if the world cup campaign isn't a total flop. He may well also piss off to France when his current contract is up if it's clear there's no real plan for him to advance beyond third choice for country...