The Official English Rugby Thread

[Glaston]

Saracens* should be trademarked

[dpedin]

It would be such a long term project for anyone, but the most committed investor to take on. Anyone seriously looking to invest who wasn't a die hard Wasp fan would surely look at a more mature setup from much higher up the league structure (Champ to ND2).

LI would have a similar issue if they go under, with a nice amateur setup already in place who wouldn't want the hassle. Only difference would be fewer in the way of 'rugby' creditors, which could potentially make post administration survival higher up the league structure more viable. But even that would be a long shot in the current environment.

The Wild Geese being in the Championship with gates of a couple of thousand within a few years of what increasingly looks inevitable seems a plausible enough scenario

I'd actually be a bit nervous about the blow back of the pro entity going under on the amateur setup. I'm no expert, but whilst they will obviously be sheltered from it, I'm not sure if Hazelwood, where they play will be. There's a fairly complicated ownership structure at the club with several entities including one that owns the actual facility. I'm just not sure what the charge from the DCMS covid loan covers.

I'm a long way outside my area of expertise tbf.

It seems like the collapse of the Premiership has some way to go to be honest. LI are not the only club struggling financially and I suspect as the poor financials unwind then there will be a lot of collateral damage. I can't really see sponsors, advertisers and TV companies being all that happy with being associated with the emerging shitshow and might reconsider their positions. A reduced league is going to mean reduced revenues streams for all the clubs. I just feel it is going to get very very messy and there will be a lot more shit to emerge over the summer. Seems like a major reset is required to the financials, governance and structures in the English game!

[Torquemada 1420]

Crisis? What crisis?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... y-pryamid/

https://www.reuters.com/sports/rfu-sets ... 023-05-15/

[Margin__Walker]

Both being discussed on this very page Torq. Do keep up at the back.

[JM2K6]

Does Torq think everyone in this thread thinks everything is fine or what

[Margin__Walker]

Does Torq think everyone in this thread thinks everything is fine or what

Yep, seems to be under the impression that everyone here holds a view that I don't think anyone holds.

It's basically your fault for triggering him by pointing out that English teams weren't routinely thrashed by French this season in Europe.

[Torquemada 1420]

You lot are a hoot. Professional players, managers, owners, administrators and commentators across the piece are making it very clear they fear for the future of the game in England from a financial perspective. I've provided you with enough of these opinions to make it clear that such views exist outside of my own. And your reaction is to cry like a girl and stick heads in sand?

If your denial of the problems is symptomatic of English rugby supporters in the wider context, then good luck turning this around.

BCM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/20 ... nd-for-it/

Made you a thread mate

https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.php?t=2511

He can gloat to his heart's content...............on his own!!

I put forward a concurrence of factors to suggest that the game in England is in some sort of crisis. Rather than eliciting any reasoned debate, the general response has been a mix of
- anger: childlike wails of How dare you?”
- obfuscation: selective responses focusing on the one aspect only (successive years of dismal European performances) to trot out “it’s cylical, innit?”.
- and, as is his peculiar modus operandi, JKM finding increasingly tortuous ways to argue that black is white and that the Earth is flat.

Saint’s feeble accusation of gloating is ironic in his lack of awareness that in order to gloat, one must have substance to the aspect one is purportedly gloating over. But then he’s not the sharpest tack in the box.

This week, Wasps have been permanently extinguished and Lirish given a matter of days to avoid following Wuss’s fate. Meantime, it’s reported that some Prem owners are calling for a massive rise in the salary cap . It seems at least one contributor to the current malaise is accurately reflected here i.e. that stubborn arrogance exemplified by Peter Cushing’s character in Horror Express when being questioned by a foreign policeman in search of a murdering entity, he is met with an indignant “We ARE English you know”.

[Torquemada 1420]

Does Torq think everyone in this thread thinks everything is fine or what

That's EXACTLY what you have been behaving like

[Margin__Walker]

Everyone tells you to piss off because you're being a tedious prick on the thread, not because English rugby is fine. A point of view literally no one holds on here.

[Oxbow]

...that stubborn arrogance exemplified by Peter Cushing’s character in Horror Express when being questioned by a foreign policeman in search of a murdering entity, he is met with an indignant “We ARE English you know”.

I don't want to ruin a perfectly good shitfight, but he actually says "We're British, you know", so that doesn't quite work.

[shaggy]

Does Torq think everyone in this thread thinks everything is fine or what

That's EXACTLY what you have been behaving like

Where is the banhammer for this tedious cunt?

[SaintK]

Made you a thread mate

https://notplanetrugby.com/viewtopic.php?t=2511

He can gloat to his heart's content...............on his own!!

I put forward a concurrence of factors to suggest that the game in England is in some sort of crisis. Rather than eliciting any reasoned debate, the general response has been a mix of
- anger: childlike wails of How dare you?”
- obfuscation: selective responses focusing on the one aspect only (successive years of dismal European performances) to trot out “it’s cylical, innit?”.
- and, as is his peculiar modus operandi, JKM finding increasingly tortuous ways to argue that black is white and that the Earth is flat.

Saint’s feeble accusation of gloating is ironic in his lack of awareness that in order to gloat, one must have substance to the aspect one is purportedly gloating over. But then he’s not the sharpest tack in the box.

This week, Wasps have been permanently extinguished and Lirish given a matter of days to avoid following Wuss’s fate. Meantime, it’s reported that some Prem owners are calling for a massive rise in the salary cap . It seems at least one contributor to the current malaise is accurately reflected here i.e. that stubborn arrogance exemplified by Peter Cushing’s character in Horror Express when being questioned by a foreign policeman in search of a murdering entity, he is met with an indignant “We ARE English you know”.

I think we recognise that there are major problems with the Premiership
So it's taken you all week to come up with that crap!! You tedious, pompous knob

[JM2K6]

Does Torq think everyone in this thread thinks everything is fine or what

That's EXACTLY what you have been behaving like

You and I have been sparring on rugby forums for over a decade. I know you're capable of reading. So how is it that you keep getting this so badly wrong?

[JM2K6]

Like I don't really understand how it's hard to realise that you can argue our European performances have been fine or at least that we've not been whipping boys, while also being aghast at the state of the league and having repeatedly gone into depth over the causes of the current problems, a history of talking about the financial impossibilities of the sport in this country, and repeated ridicule of the people in charge. These are not contradictory positions. Some French twat laughing at English performances in the Champions Cup while the majority of French sides debased themselves and did far worse than the majority of English sides is very strange indeed.

Just because we don't subscribe to the "literally everything about English rugby is shit including performances and skill level" ethos, doesn't mean that we're not almost entirely all on board with these facts:

- the RFU is incompetently run and pisses money up the wall while making bad decision after bad decision
- PRL have negotiated themselves into a corner with CVC, and the last rises in the salary cap have been disastrous for the health of the league
- COVID turned financially precious clubs into bankrupt ones and badly hurt everyone
- The England youth pathway was destroyed by Dean fucking Ryan and we went from being consistently superb at U20s level to being really mediocre
- The Eddie Jones obsession lasted 2 years too long, did extreme damage to players, coaches, results, and the relationship between the clubs and the national side
- The national side is in a shit state with absolutely no clear vision which is ironic given the guy in charge currently appears to be the most narrow minded coach we could've got
- Losing Wasps and Worcs was devestating and everyone expects more to follow, making individual results look a little more meaningless compared to the future of the pro sport itself
- The schedule itself is bonkers
- The current way the sport is refereed is incredibly contentious but all sides agree it's a disaster regardless of where you come down on the topic of cards and head contact
- The sport's future regarding concussions and law changes to suit is very murky indeed (and this ain't an England-only thing)

Those are regular topics that spring up again and again and again. Much of this thread is essentially hair-pulling frustration over the situation we have. I've gone into detail over how the clubs were heading towards financial sustainability only to be torpedoed by a couple of factors and then COVID hammering the nail in, and yet this has somehow been characterised as "JM blaming COVID for all England rugby's problems" which is just disingenuous bollocks.

But it really isn't all bad and there's things to celebrate. As a Quins fan, not only am I proud of the young team we produced and the rugby they produced after throwing off the Gustard shackles, I'm also proud that it seemed to actually ignite the league and the following 2 seasons have seen some of the best rugby we've ever had. The "product" is in rude health in that sense. There's quality young players everywhere playing fast aggressive attacking rugby and producing superb highlight reel performances on a regular basis. There's guys who've made a name for themselves over the last few seasons as incredible talents being joined by the next rank who also look like they're going to be brilliant, and there's rarely a game without multiple young English players that make me happy I pay for BT sport. Even a relative snoozefest like the Sale/Tigers semi-final showed off the best of guys like Carpenter and Steward with Quirke, Rodd, Martin, Roebuck et al having excellent impact - all while we were treated to an absolute masterclass from George Ford. And most games these days are far more open and watchable than that one.

Sorry if I still find things to like and enjoy about the sport and that I don't think that English clubs having a mixed year in Europe is the same as English clubs having a dreadful year in Europe. Pesky things, results. They tend to get in the way of narratives.

[Kawazaki]

English professional rugby going to a 'franchise model'?!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... rship-rfu/

https://archive.ph/EhVt7

With both the Premiership and Championship set to move to a franchise basis as part of the new professional game agreement with the RFU to be signed next year, Wasps could be offered the opportunity to apply for a franchise once the new leagues have “become established.”

When was this agreed and what does it actually mean?

[SaintK]

English professional rugby going to a 'franchise model'?!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... rship-rfu/

https://archive.ph/EhVt7

With both the Premiership and Championship set to move to a franchise basis as part of the new professional game agreement with the RFU to be signed next year, Wasps could be offered the opportunity to apply for a franchise once the new leagues have “become established.”

When was this agreed and what does it actually mean?

Not heard that before!!!

Without paywall
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2F ... p-rfu%2F

[Kawazaki]

Gallagher Premiership Final

Saracens v SaracensLite (Sale)

https://archive.ph/J2fNE

...Ford is set to emulate Old Farrell: a concentration on the boot with the odd delayed pass and break. That was how he kept Leicester where he wanted them in the play-off semi-final. But Saracens have a far greater counterattacking threat with men like Elliot Daly and Alex Goode to challenge the Sale kicking game.
McCall should be ready for a similar Sale game plan at Twickenham. It is the one used to great effect by his team over the years. Now Saracens face the prospect of playing against their old selves. The sound of boot on ball, the howl of the wolf pack. Sanderson’s steely Sale have been forged in the image of his former club. I’ll take the present to prevail over the past.

[Torquemada 1420]

I think we recognise that there are major problems with the Premiership
So it's taken you all week to come up with that crap!! You tedious, pompous knob

A week you say? You were counting (you can count?!)? And you think your monosyllabic posts merit my bothering to even look for, let alone attributing importance to hastily responding?

I imagine you in real life like that Tim character in Harry Enfield: nice chap but conversation becomes limited and rapidly descends into needing the nearest escape.

[Happyhooker]

I think we recognise that there are major problems with the Premiership
So it's taken you all week to come up with that crap!! You tedious, pompous knob

A week you say? You were counting (you can count?!)? And you think your monosyllabic posts merit my bothering to even look for, let alone attributing importance to hastily responding?

I imagine you in real life like that Tim character in Harry Enfield: nice chap but conversation becomes limited and rapidly descends into needing the nearest escape.

You okay torq? I'm not particularly engaged in this but you do seem to be misrepresenting poster's positions and the descent into personal abuse there is completely unnecessary. And woefully inaccurate. I've met saintk.

[SaintK]

I think we recognise that there are major problems with the Premiership
So it's taken you all week to come up with that crap!! You tedious, pompous knob

A week you say? You were counting (you can count?!)? And you think your monosyllabic posts merit my bothering to even look for, let alone attributing importance to hastily responding?

I imagine you in real life like that Tim character in Harry Enfield: nice chap but conversation becomes limited and rapidly descends into needing the nearest escape.

You okay torq? I'm not particularly engaged in this but you do seem to be misrepresenting poster's positions and the descent into personal abuse there is completely unnecessary. And woefully inaccurate. I've met saintk.

Hey HH hope all good
Torque's appears to have got a touch of the Globusitis with added superiority complex and a dash of condescension!!! Didn't come here to engage with that sort of thing so no worries
Any new breweries you working on? I made it to Boxcar earlier in the year and then a month later read they had gone into administration due to landlord issues!! Any news on them restarting?

[weegie01]

Sorry to butt in on an England Rugby thread, but I was glancing over it and saw the references to a franchise system for the Premiership and Championship having been agreed.

When did this happen? Does this mean the participants in those leagues are permanently fixed?

[Brazil]

Sorry to butt in on an England Rugby thread, but I was glancing over it and saw the references to a franchise system for the Premiership and Championship having been agreed.

When did this happen? Does this mean the participants in those leagues are permanently fixed?

Where did you see that? The current thinking is that they will go to two leagues of two teams. This has been made somewhat easier by the extinction of two, possibly three premiership teams, but to the best of my knowledge nobody is talking about franchises.

[weegie01]

Sorry to butt in on an England Rugby thread, but I was glancing over it and saw the references to a franchise system for the Premiership and Championship having been agreed.

When did this happen? Does this mean the participants in those leagues are permanently fixed?

Where did you see that? The current thinking is that they will go to two leagues of two teams. This has been made somewhat easier by the extinction of two, possibly three premiership teams, but to the best of my knowledge nobody is talking about franchises.

With both the Premiership and Championship set to move to a franchise basis as part of the new professional game agreement with the RFU to be signed next year, Wasps could be offered the opportunity to apply for a franchise once the new leagues have “become established.”

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... hip-rfu%2F

[sockwithaticket]

Sorry to butt in on an England Rugby thread, but I was glancing over it and saw the references to a franchise system for the Premiership and Championship having been agreed.

When did this happen? Does this mean the participants in those leagues are permanently fixed?

That Telegraph article is the only source for now. Nobody has any more details than that.

It strikes me that the RFU have been stung a bit by the scrutiny they've come over, including select committee summonings, and have finally woken up to needing to do something about the state of the professional domestic game. So they've drawn up this idea, such as it is. Whether the blazers have the wit to restructure everything without arsing it up... well, I'm sure we all have our opinions.

[sockwithaticket]

Matt Kvesic has spent the season in Italy following Worcester's demise and is coming back to England, but to play in the Championship with Coventry.

Seems a bit of an odd move unless he's being paid well over the Championship norm. At 31 he's definitely young enough to keep knocking about in the Prem for a few more seasons and I'd have thought he might attract a bit of an interest from his old club Exeter given the experience vacuum they're going to have down there what with their senior player exodus.

[JM2K6]

Sorry to butt in on an England Rugby thread, but I was glancing over it and saw the references to a franchise system for the Premiership and Championship having been agreed.

When did this happen? Does this mean the participants in those leagues are permanently fixed?

Where did you see that? The current thinking is that they will go to two leagues of two teams. This has been made somewhat easier by the extinction of two, possibly three premiership teams, but to the best of my knowledge nobody is talking about franchises.

With both the Premiership and Championship set to move to a franchise basis as part of the new professional game agreement with the RFU to be signed next year, Wasps could be offered the opportunity to apply for a franchise once the new leagues have “become established.”

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... hip-rfu%2F

"Set to be signed next year"

Absolutely no chance there's been any agreement of any import that relies on things being signed next year.

[Mahoney]

The current thinking is that they will go to two leagues of two teams.

Things really are bad. It's going to be a bit repetitive.

[JM2K6]

The current thinking is that they will go to two leagues of two teams.

Things really are bad. It's going to be a bit repetitive.

Braz means one league of Saracens plus Saracens-lite (Sale, Tigers, Exeter, Falcons) and one of Quins plus Quins-lite (Saints, Bristol, Glaws, Bath)

[Brazil]

The current thinking is that they will go to two leagues of two teams.

Things really are bad. It's going to be a bit repetitive.

Braz means one league of Saracens plus Saracens-lite (Sale, Tigers, Exeter, Falcons) and one of Quins plus Quins-lite (Saints, Bristol, Glaws, Bath)

I meant two of ten, obvs.

[JM2K6]

Fuckityfuck

[laurent]

Fuckityfuck

3 in 1 year wow

[SaintK]

Sarries +9

[petej]

Like I don't really understand how it's hard to realise that you can argue our European performances have been fine or at least that we've not been whipping boys, while also being aghast at the state of the league and having repeatedly gone into depth over the causes of the current problems, a history of talking about the financial impossibilities of the sport in this country, and repeated ridicule of the people in charge. These are not contradictory positions. Some French twat laughing at English performances in the Champions Cup while the majority of French sides debased themselves and did far worse than the majority of English sides is very strange indeed.

Just because we don't subscribe to the "literally everything about English rugby is shit including performances and skill level" ethos, doesn't mean that we're not almost entirely all on board with these facts:

- the RFU is incompetently run and pisses money up the wall while making bad decision after bad decision
- PRL have negotiated themselves into a corner with CVC, and the last rises in the salary cap have been disastrous for the health of the league
- COVID turned financially precious clubs into bankrupt ones and badly hurt everyone
- The England youth pathway was destroyed by Dean fucking Ryan and we went from being consistently superb at U20s level to being really mediocre
- The Eddie Jones obsession lasted 2 years too long, did extreme damage to players, coaches, results, and the relationship between the clubs and the national side
- The national side is in a shit state with absolutely no clear vision which is ironic given the guy in charge currently appears to be the most narrow minded coach we could've got
- Losing Wasps and Worcs was devestating and everyone expects more to follow, making individual results look a little more meaningless compared to the future of the pro sport itself
- The schedule itself is bonkers
- The current way the sport is refereed is incredibly contentious but all sides agree it's a disaster regardless of where you come down on the topic of cards and head contact
- The sport's future regarding concussions and law changes to suit is very murky indeed (and this ain't an England-only thing)

Those are regular topics that spring up again and again and again. Much of this thread is essentially hair-pulling frustration over the situation we have. I've gone into detail over how the clubs were heading towards financial sustainability only to be torpedoed by a couple of factors and then COVID hammering the nail in, and yet this has somehow been characterised as "JM blaming COVID for all England rugby's problems" which is just disingenuous bollocks.

But it really isn't all bad and there's things to celebrate. As a Quins fan, not only am I proud of the young team we produced and the rugby they produced after throwing off the Gustard shackles, I'm also proud that it seemed to actually ignite the league and the following 2 seasons have seen some of the best rugby we've ever had. The "product" is in rude health in that sense. There's quality young players everywhere playing fast aggressive attacking rugby and producing superb highlight reel performances on a regular basis. There's guys who've made a name for themselves over the last few seasons as incredible talents being joined by the next rank who also look like they're going to be brilliant, and there's rarely a game without multiple young English players that make me happy I pay for BT sport. Even a relative snoozefest like the Sale/Tigers semi-final showed off the best of guys like Carpenter and Steward with Quirke, Rodd, Martin, Roebuck et al having excellent impact - all while we were treated to an absolute masterclass from George Ford. And most games these days are far more open and watchable than that one.

Sorry if I still find things to like and enjoy about the sport and that I don't think that English clubs having a mixed year in Europe is the same as English clubs having a dreadful year in Europe. Pesky things, results. They tend to get in the way of narratives.

Really good post. How did Dean Ryan keep getting jobs? I can't remember him actually being good anywhere.

[Tichtheid]

Brilliant defence work from Farrell

[Tichtheid]

Maitland's knee looks bad, he's such a classy player

[Tichtheid]

Clear cut penalty try

[Oxbow]

Stupid from Curry, better to let them score a try out wide and still have 15 on the pitch.

[Tichtheid]

Yeah, I thought that was a try

[Simian]

Cracking game

[Tichtheid]

Nice little delayed pass from Farrell